Endurance party

[Kane0]

Hey all.

As a bit of a thought experiment, what is the longest lasting 4-man party of 10th level that we can think of?

A couple of baselines:
- Ideally we want a spread of classes to cover multiple roles and cover multiple strengths and weaknesses. Like a normal party
- There will be 1 easy, 2 normal and 1 hard encounter as well as the chance for 2 short rests each 24 hour period. Extended rests are too much of a risk, even with resources such as Tiny Hut.
- The party will have to constantly be on the move. Fortifying up somewhere to hold out will lead to a protracted, gruesome end. A last stand scenario is for a different thought thread.

A few thoughts on party makeup:
- A Paladin with warlock dip could make a decent front-liner if he rations his paladin spells carefully. The warlock spells could be used for smites and heals, leaving paladin spell slots and lay on hands for emergencies.
- A straight warlock or sorcerer with warlock dip would be a good choice for party blaster, with a good cantrip damage and ability to nova as well as recharge on short rests
- A non AT-rogue doesn't care at all about resting, and the thief rogue can use the healer feat in a pinch to save on hit dice expenditure.
- Druids and fighters both have solid short-rest abilities that allow them to contribute, and the druid can ration spell slots for emergencies like the paladin on top of wild shape free hit points

What does the forum reckon? Whats the longest we can last, and in the best shape?

Edit: Looks like the shortlist is
- Fighter (Non EK, Battlemaster preferred)
- Rogue (Non AT, thief preferred if Healer feat)
- Monk (Death preferred for THP)
- Warlock (Fiend preferred for THP)
- Sorcerer with Warlock for slots (can get back spells via sorcerery point shenanigans)

With close seconds:
- Druid (using wild shape as much as possible, cant get druid slots back)
- Paladin with Warlock (using warlock slots for smites, cant get paladin slots nor lay on hands back)

With those options topping up health is a big deal. Those that cannot get a source of THP via class feature or the Inspiring leader feat need to rely on spells or the healer feat before they must dip into the Hit Dice they can't get back.

[JellyPooga]

A Warlock with a Life Cleric Dip would be almost essential as a Healer and I suspect he'd have to save his Pact Magic for healing and healing alone. I'd probably go GOO Warlock (Tome Pact) 9 / Life Cleric 1. Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Eldritch Spear, Book of Secrets and Ascendant Step. His job is to stay out of harms way and Cure Wounds 2/short rest. He can handle any ritual stuff too.

Bards, Barbarians, single-class Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards are probably right out; too many abilities that function per long-rest. Single-classed Paladins can probably join that list too.

A Warlock/Paladin can Smite all day long, every day and provides a handy boost to Saves for everyone.

Rogue (non AT) and Fighter (non-EK) are both pretty much unaffected and both have good endurance; the former because of Uncanny Dodge and the latter because of Second Wind.

Moon Druid is going to miss his spells after the first day, but if he builds solely for melee, then he could be useful; at level 10 he's just had a massive boost with access to Elemental forms.

If it were me (and I was totally ignoring fluff), my party would be;
- GOO Tome Warlock 9/ Life Cleric 1
- OoA Paladin 7 / Fiend Blade Warlock 3
- Thief Rogue 10
- Battlemaster Fighter 10

I differed on the Battlemaster; level 9+ doesn't do a lot for him, so I'd be tempted to switch out those levels for Rogue; Expertise and Cunning Action are very attractive for a mere 2-level dip.

I'd also be tempted to make each and every one of them a Half-Orc, solely for Relentless Endurance. I think a party in this scenario might need it!

[Shining Wrath]

I'd like to suggest Moon Druid with Life Cleric (1) dip for awesome Goodberries to keep you both fed and healed. The Moon Druid also gives you large piles of temporary HP in the form of CR 3 beasts.

[MaxWilson]

Hey all.

As a bit of a thought experiment, what is the longest lasting 4-man party of 10th level that we can think of?

4 mobile PCs of any kind, but here's a variation on one that I've used with callouts on important features:

An Eldritch Knight 10 (Mobile, Sharpshooter, 20 Dex; Expeditious Retreat, Shield);
Paladin of Devotion 6/Wild Sorc 4 (Mounted Combatant, Warcaster, 18 Cha; Find Steed, Expeditious Retreat, Booming Blade/False Fetters);
Lore Bard 8/Fiendlock 2 (Cha 20; Aura of Healing, Spike Growth, Expeditious Retreat, Freedom of Movement; Agonizing Repelling Blast; Stealth and Perception Expertise)
Fighter 1/Necromancer 9 (Warcaster, Int 20; Undead Thralls, Web, Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat, Phantom Steed, Booming Blade/False Fetters, Wall of Force, Blur, Leomund's Tiny Hut)

All PCs are proficient in Stealth and Perception.

Anything they can't trivially kite (enemies with movement over 50', which are relatively few), they can kill with focused ranged attacks. In a space so enclosed that ranged attacks aren't feasible, the Paladorc holds any chokepoints while Dodging on his steed (which is free to attack; the Paladin is protected by Shield + Cutting Words + Dodge) and the Necrotank holds the second line behind him (can Dodge or Blur, but either way Warcaster enables Booming Blade on any enemies who try to bypass) and is backed by a half-dozen zombies; behind the front lines and a dozen skeleton archers to provide ranged firepower to supplement the bardlock and the Sharpshooter. Additionally, the Lore Bard can use Spike Growth to slow down enemies who try to engage in melee, and then blast them back across the Spike Growth for +4d4 damage as well as costing them time. Getting through all those lines of defense is like engaging in WWI trench warfare--it's just not going to happen. But it's also quite cheap for the PCs.

If the space is wide open and the enemy is flying, the skeleton archers, bardlock, and Sharpshooter knock them out of the sky.

If the enemy is also ranged-heavy, everyone hunkers down behind partial cover or a Wall of Force while the Sharpshooter picks them off.

Against enemies with horrific save-or-die effects, the party clumps up for +5 from paladin aura +d8 from Bardic Inspiration; but they will mainly just try to stay out of the AoE so they don't make saves at all.

I have quite frankly never been able to attrit a party like this using Medium encounters; if it's not Deadly they pretty much steamroll it without blinking, unless it's a trick encounter like a Banshee or Intellect Devourer attacking from ambush, because those monsters are deadlier than their CR rating indicates. I do use Speed Factor(ish) initiative to make combats more chaotic, and I use spell points, so my experience isn't completely standard, but I don't think either of those variants hurts the party, and the Mobile feat is actually even stronger under cyclic initiative.

I think the party I've listed above could easily take twenty Kobold.com-generated 10th level encounters in a row without a short rest.

Edit: oh, I didn't understand at first that the goal was to endure for number of days and not number of encounters. Swap the Fighter/Necromancer for a Life Cleric 1/Fiendlock 9 with the Inspiring Leader feat, since you can't keep the undead under control over multiple days otherwise; and swap the Bardlock for a Moon Druid 10 with the Mobile and Healer feats. The party will last 20 days or more, no problem.

[Kane0]

Interesting, that does seem very effective.

Just out of curiosity, I randomed up 12 kobold fight club encounters, 3 days worth.

1: Medium: 3x Gnoll Pack Lord, 2x Nothic, 1x Werewolf
2: Medium: 2x Gargoyle, 1x Giant Scorpion, 3x Saber-Toothed Tiger
3: Medium: 1x Bugbear Chief, 2x Blue Faerie Dragon, 1x Helmed Horror
4: Medium: 2x Carrion Crawler, 1x Elephant, 1x Winter Wolf
5: Easy: 2x Quaggoth Thonot, 4x Specter
6: Easy: 2x Giant Scorpion, 4x Giant Toad
7: Easy: 5x Giant Octopus, 1x Lizard King
8: Medium: 1x Chuul, 2x Yeti
9: Hard: 2x Bone Naga, 1x Gold Dragon Wyrmling, 2x Minotaur
10: Hard: 2x Ghost, 2x Phase Spider, 1x Werewolf
11: Medium: 1x Hook Horror, 1x Owlbear, 1x Weretiger
12: Hard: 2x Gargoyle, 4x Griffon, 2x Nightmare

I can see what you mean, most of these can be outrun unless they ambush you good and proper. How many spell slots do you reckon you'd have to burn on these?
For the ones that you run from (the ones that notice you that is), could you deal with them if they catch up?

Edit: Also, what's false fetters?

[JellyPooga]

An Eldritch Knight 10
Paladin of Devotion 6/Wild Sorc 4
Lore Bard 8/Fiendlock 2 Moon Druid 10
Fighter 1/Necromancer 9 Life Cleric 1/Fiendlock 9

Both the EK and the Paladin are just going to run out of steam after day one. Sure they've got the basics of their respective Classes, but neither one will have any spells bar Cantrips; probably better off switching out the EK for Battlemaster (which recharges on a short rest) and the Sorc for Warlock (for endurance smiting).

If you want to kite encounters though, you can't go wrong with a Rogue and/or a Monk. Neither one worries about long rests and either one can outrun most things whilst still doing reliable damage.

[Kane0]

So without multiclassing we could go Battlemaster, Rogue, Monk, Warlock. Seems rounded enough, and can kite pretty efficiently too.

If we multiclass we could use dips in warlock to enable paladins and sorcerers, though the paladin will eventually get worn down more than the fighter.

Healing may be an issue, but the healer and inspiring leadership feats help with that, and we have at least 1 Cha class to use it.

[MaxWilson]

False Fetters is my renaming/refluffing of Booming Blade, because I think "booming energy" sounds stupid. Think shackles made out of cloudstuff which explode when you move too far but quickly evaporate.


Both the EK and the Paladin are just going to run out of steam after day one. Sure they've got the basics of their respective Classes, but neither one will have any spells bar Cantrips; probably better off switching out the EK for Battlemaster (which recharges on a short rest) and the Sorc for Warlock (for endurance smiting).

If you want to kite encounters though, you can't go wrong with a Rogue and/or a Monk. Neither one worries about long rests and either one can outrun most things whilst still doing reliable damage.

The Paladin still gets a 1/short rest Sacred Weapon, and he probably won't even use up all his spells on Day One. And even when he has no spells, Mounted Combatant + cantrips means he is still plenty effective, can kite as well as a monk (Booming Blade + Mount Disengages back 60' is as good as anything a monk can do). And the EK can do something similar just by hopping on the Moon Druid's back. So I wouldn't be worried about the party's ability to persevere long after the EK and Paladin run out of spell slots.

But still, the optimizer in me is very conscious that they're not optimized for days of continuous operation with lots of short rests and no long rests. I've been thinking for the last couple of hours (the whole time I was supposed to be watching My Fair Lady) about how you'd optimize these guys to be more short rest-based to make sure you could go indefinitely, while still making them about as varied as a standard party. Here's my current thinking using point buy for sake of simplicity:

Malachai, Ranged Specialist/Secondary Tank: Human Fighter 1/Fiendlock 9 (Str 15, Con 16, Cha 20, Dex 8, Int 8, Wis 8, 75 HP, Spell Sniper; Tomelock, Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Spear, Devil's Sight, Book of Ancient Secrets (False Fetters, Shillelagh, Spare the Dying; Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Augury, Divination, Commune, Phantom Steed, Rary's Telepathic Bond)). If the DM rules that you can't have rituals above 1st level then instead of Book of Ancient Secrets I'd go with Ascendant Step, though Whispers of the Grave would be super cool if it could at all impact whatever it is that's causing us to be hunted. Key spells: Vampiric Touch, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat, Eldritch Blast, Thunderclap, Sword Burst, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Wall of Fire, Blindness/Deafness. AC 21 from plate armor + shield + defense style. Usually fights with Eldritch Blast for +9/d10+5 at 600'.

Nahum, Melee Tank and Ranged Combatant: Human Paladin of Devotion 6/Sorcerer 1/Fiendlock 3 (Str 16, Con 15, Cha 18, Dex 8, Int 8, Wis 8, 79 HP, Mounted Combatant; Bladelock, Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight). If the DM will rule that Tides of Chaos triggers automatically on the next sorcerer spell then I'd go wild sorc for the possibility of free Fireball/etc., otherwise I'd go Storm Sorc for the bonus action 10' fly. Spells: Shield, Sanctuary, Bless, Shield of Faith, Darkness, Aid, Protection From Poison, Armor of Agathys, Hex, Lightning Lure, Expeditious Retreat, False Fetters, Greenflame Blade, Eldritch Blast, Blade Ward, Thunderclap, Cure Wounds, Find Steed. AC 21 from plate armor + shield + defense style. Usually fights with lance from the back of steed (warhorse) for +7/d12+3 at 10'.

Ezekiel, Healer and Protector: Human Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 5/Fiendlock 4 (Con 15, Wis 16, Cha 20, Str 8, Dex 8, Int 8; Pact of the Chain, Sprite Familiar; Inspiring Leader; Devil's Sight, Agonizing Blast). Key spells: Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Darkness, Hypnotic Pattern, Eldritch Blast, Chill Touch, Sacred Flame, Longstrider, Expeditious Retreat. AC 16 from Ring Mail + shield. Usually fights with Eldritch Blast for +9/d10+5.

Xuan Dai, Secondary Tank and Emergency Spellcaster: Moon Druid 10 (Wis 16, Int 15, Con 16, Dex 8, Str 8, Cha 8, 83 HP; Mobile, Healer, Spell Sniper (False Fetters)). Spells: False Fetters, Thorn Whip, Produce Flame, Shillelagh, Guidance, Commune With Nature, Speak With Animals, Conjure Animals, Entangle, Cure Wounds, Spike Growth, Locate Animals or Plants, Meld Into Stone, Water Walk, Pass Without Trace, Call Lightning, Greater Restoration, Antilife Shell. AC 12 from Hide Armor + shield + Dex penalty. I'll assume functionally unlimited supplies of healing kits (8 kits? two carried by each PC). In human form, often fights with Shillelagh + False Fetters + Retreat.

One thing I'm particularly looking forward to is having Malachai toss up a Wall of Flame while Ezekiel puts up Darkness, and then Xuan Dai and Nahum take turns pulling enemies through the Wall of Flame (Thorn Whip and Lightning Lure) before Malachai knocks them back through with Repelling Blast. Eat 10d8 damage, suckers!

I'll run these guys through the three days/twelve encounters rolled earlier and see how many resources it costs them.

[MaxWilson]

It's a turkey shoot. 3 HP expended and 2 warlock slots in the first fight, even though the monsters ambush the PCs at point-blank range and the druid and lore bard don't even get involved in the fight, and most of the other fights don't have long-ranged weapons at all.

The turkey shoots are so boring that I can't stand to actually run all the combats in detail. I need someone else to call out terrain and a situation that would actually prevent them from just kiting things to death. Otherwise, for now I'll skip to #9 "2x Bone Naga, 1x Gold Dragon Wyrmling, 2x Minotaur" and just assume that the party is still at full resources, since it's right after a short rest and nothing else looks likely to deplete any non-short-rest resources. (#5 could be semi-interesting if the Quaggoth Thonots Heat Metal on Nahum, but since Darkness makes you immune it's just another turkey shoot after all.)

[Lolzyking]

I feel people overate paladin and underate monk in this regard.

I'd recommend a long death monk, at level 10 they'd have their fear and temp hp gain on kill, on top of monks innate usefulness as a disabler.




my Ideal team for an endurance setup would be

long death monk, probably wood elf

Mounted combatant fighter, Gwm, the dps, but being mounted gives him more tank, battlemaster or purple dragon knight.

Arcane trickster rogue7 rune scribe 3- oddball but with the use of runes for the base effects that are free, and more spell slots to gish with, it would be useful, Elf of some kind.

Warlock 7 Favored soul life domain 3 - COFFEE- Aka convert warlock slots to Sorc points, to sorc slots, for better spell casting options, also life domain spells.

[Kane0]

If you like, I can kobold up some less random encounters with some basic situations:

1: Easy: 1x Bulette, 1x Ankheg (open terrain, ambush)
2: Medium: 1x Grell, 4x Lizardfolk, 1x Lizardfolk Shaman, 1x Lizardfolk King (swamp, hunting party)
3: Medium: 4x Phase Spider (open terrain, ambush)
4: Hard: 3x Hell Hound, 3x Winter Wolf (light forest, ambush/pursuit)
5: Easy: 2x Orc, 1x Eye of Gruumsh, 1x Orc War Chief, 1x Orog (caves, hunting party)
6: Medium: 2x Dretch, 2x Mane, 1x Vrock, 1x Shadow Demon (light forest, hunting party)
7: Medium: 2x Chuul, 2x Giant Octopus, 1x Hunter Shark, 1x Merrow (riverside, ambush)
8: Hard: 1x Blue Slaad, 1x Green Slaad (Swamp, hunting party)
9: Easy: 1x Bugbear, 1x Bugbear Chief, 4x Goblin, 1x Goblin Boss, 3x Hobgoblin (sparse woodland, hunting party)
10: Medium: 4x Gargoyle, 1x Earth Elemental (rocky canyon, ambush)
11: Medium: 3x Animated Armor, 3x Animated Sword, 2x Helmed Horror (sparse woodland, pursuit)
12: Hard: 3x Green Dragon Wyrmling, 1x Young Green Dragon (sparse woodland, hunting party)
13: Easy: 2x Ettin (open terrain, hunting party)
14: Medium: 3x Minotaur Skeleton, 3x Ogre Zombie (wasteland, ambush)
15: Medium: 4x Specter, 1x Wraith (wasteland, ambush)
16: Hard: 2x Ghast, 6x Ghoul, 2x Wight (wasteland, pursuit)
17: Easy: 2x Swarm of Poisonous Snakes, 2x Giant Scorpion (wasteland, ambush)
18: Medium: 2x Basilisk, 2x Gorgon (wasteland, hunting party)
19: Medium: 3x Black Pudding, 2x Grey Ooze (wasteland, ambush)
20: Hard: 2x Barbed Devil, 2x Bearded Devil, 1x Spined Devil, 1x Lemure (wasteland, ambush/pursuit)

Ambushes will try to hide and get the party by surprise in their favored terrain, but will usually not pursue enemies that escape
Hunting parties will try to approach stealthily if terrain permits to close and attack, and will chase for a while
Pursuit will try to approach if terrain permits to close and attack, and will chase indefinitely

Open terrain has little cover, lots of space and little difficult terrain
Sparse woodland has some cover, some space and some difficult terrain
Swamp has lots of difficult terrain, little space and some cover
Caves have little space, some cover and little difficult terrain
Wastelands have lots of difficult terrain and cover, and little to some space
Riverside has lots of space, no cover and the water

[MaxWilson]

If you like, I can kobold up some less random encounters with some basic situations:

1: Easy: 1x Bulette, 1x Ankheg (open terrain, ambush)
2: Medium: 1x Grell, 4x Lizardfolk, 1x Lizardfolk Shaman, 1x Lizardfolk King (swamp, hunting party)
3: Medium: 4x Phase Spider (open terrain, ambush)
4: Hard: 3x Hell Hound, 3x Winter Wolf (light forest, ambush/pursuit)
5: Easy: 2x Orc, 1x Eye of Gruumsh, 1x Orc War Chief, 1x Orog (caves, hunting party)
6: Medium: 2x Dretch, 2x Mane, 1x Vrock, 1x Shadow Demon (light forest, hunting party)
7: Medium: 2x Chuul, 2x Giant Octopus, 1x Hunter Shark, 1x Merrow (riverside, ambush)
8: Hard: 1x Blue Slaad, 1x Green Slaad (Swamp, hunting party)
9: Easy: 1x Bugbear, 1x Bugbear Chief, 4x Goblin, 1x Goblin Boss, 3x Hobgoblin (sparse woodland, hunting party)
10: Medium: 4x Gargoyle, 1x Earth Elemental (rocky canyon, ambush)
11: Medium: 3x Animated Armor, 3x Animated Sword, 2x Helmed Horror (sparse woodland, pursuit)
12: Hard: 3x Green Dragon Wyrmling, 1x Young Green Dragon (sparse woodland, hunting party)
13: Easy: 2x Ettin (open terrain, hunting party)
14: Medium: 3x Minotaur Skeleton, 3x Ogre Zombie (wasteland, ambush)
15: Medium: 4x Specter, 1x Wraith (wasteland, ambush)
16: Hard: 2x Ghast, 6x Ghoul, 2x Wight (wasteland, pursuit)
17: Easy: 2x Swarm of Poisonous Snakes, 2x Giant Scorpion (wasteland, ambush)
18: Medium: 2x Basilisk, 2x Gorgon (wasteland, hunting party)
19: Medium: 3x Black Pudding, 2x Grey Ooze (wasteland, ambush)
20: Hard: 2x Barbed Devil, 2x Bearded Devil, 1x Spined Devil, 1x Lemure (wasteland, ambush/pursuit)

Ambushes will try to hide and get the party by surprise in their favored terrain, but will usually not pursue enemies that escape
Hunting parties will try to approach stealthily if terrain permits to close and attack, and will chase for a while
Pursuit will try to approach if terrain permits to close and attack, and will chase indefinitely

Open terrain has little cover, lots of space and little difficult terrain
Sparse woodland has some cover, some space and some difficult terrain
Swamp has lots of difficult terrain, little space and some cover
Caves have little space, some cover and little difficult terrain
Wastelands have lots of difficult terrain and cover, and little to some space
Riverside has lots of space, no cover and the water

Thanks, I'll take a gander at these later.

[Kane0]

my Ideal team for an endurance setup would be

long death monk, probably wood elf
Mounted combatant fighter, Gwm, the dps, but being mounted gives him more tank, battlemaster or purple dragon knight.
Arcane trickster rogue7 rune scribe 3- oddball but with the use of runes for the base effects that are free, and more spell slots to gish with, it would be useful, Elf of some kind.
Warlock 7 Favored soul life domain 3 - COFFEE- Aka convert warlock slots to Sorc points, to sorc slots, for better spell casting options, also life domain spells.

Mine probably wouldn't be too much different.
Mounted Battlemaster + Thief (possibly mastermind, haven't had a close enough look) + Monk (Death, Sun or Palm) + Fiendlock/Sorc (Favored soul or dragon). Make sure the thief has Healer for heal kit abuse and the warlock has inspiring leadership for THPs all round.

Rune scribe is an interesting idea, the passives from runes are worth having (earth + air on a sling has been thrown around a lot) even if the casting doesn't do much for us.