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Mr. Mask
2015-11-11, 05:14 PM
Here's a fun topic. How to justify giant robots in a game.

You can say, "because magic," but that's simply no fun in a discussion. If you say, "because they're actually the husks of humanoid gods converted into war machines," that works. Or because, "a humanoid vehicle is better able to tap into the chakra of the pilot," that also works. Though it'd be interesting to hear more discussion in the realistic to semi-realistic range of reasoning.


How would you try to justify the use of giant (how giant depends on your justification) robots? I'll give my ideas on this in a bit.

Honest Tiefling
2015-11-11, 05:19 PM
See, they're made by jamming as many souls as you can get a hold of into the mecha to make it easier for the pilot to control, as these souls take over control over many small functions, or allow the pilot to better control the thing by just thinking about it. But the thing is, souls are kinda used to the whole humanoid shape. So you can make them in other shapes, but they either get confused or go crazy...And well, that does have its uses, but most people don't like to talk about the result of that experiment, which is still rampaging somewhere.

Flickerdart
2015-11-11, 05:24 PM
They interface with the pilot on a neural level, and it's just a lot simpler to train people "your hand moves this hand" than "move these wheels like you would move a limb you don't have."

The Glyphstone
2015-11-11, 05:28 PM
Because the humanoid form is seen as an example of divine purity, whereas non-human forms are of the alien and the mutant and the monstrous. To deliberately imitate a non-human shape is to invite weakness and corruption into your holy war machine.

Fri
2015-11-11, 05:30 PM
I like Cthulhutech's reasoning.

The magic engine that give you unlimited energy also psychically give the pilot of vehicles it's equipped with a heightened sense of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception. You could put it in a tank but it'd be a waste (and make the pilot feels like a box). Put it in a humanoid machine, and you're golden.

I also had this idea in mind (or maybe read it somewhere and conflate it with my own idea).

There's this magitech setting where wars has devolved into ritualistic fights. So they use inefficient (though actually pretty powerful) army of giant armors to do battles full of rules when countries have border disputes and such.

An interesting story would be about a crew of modern-day tank magically transported there and got involved in a war. Their tank is actually weaker than the giant armors everyone use, but it's more efficient/effective, and they don't have various honorable conducts crammed into their head since birth. But as unique as them, there's only one tank, can they really make a difference?

Flickerdart
2015-11-11, 05:52 PM
An interesting story would be about a crew of modern-day tank magically transported there and got involved in a war. Their tank is actually weaker than the giant armors everyone use, but it's more efficient/effective, and they don't have various honorable conducts crammed into their head since birth. But as unique as them, there's only one tank, can they really make a difference?
Given how quickly a tank without a supply train runs out of fuel, ammo, treads, etc - no, they can't.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-11, 05:56 PM
Because the humanoid form is seen as an example of divine purity, whereas non-human forms are of the alien and the mutant and the monstrous. To deliberately imitate a non-human shape is to invite weakness and corruption into your holy war machine. I'll take it a step further: Modern war machines make heavy use of a highly advanced AI system. Due to the danger of these systems betraying the humans, great effort is made to convince the AIs that they are also human. Big metal humans, but human in spirit, soul, and nature all the same, representatives of what it means to be human (so you tell them).

Drakeburn
2015-11-11, 06:31 PM
Maybe the mecha is integrated with VR tech that enables their pilots to instinctively control them through ease, although it may reach to a point where the human pilots believe that they are their own mecha.

sktarq
2015-11-11, 06:53 PM
In a future where goods are easy to produce and people are few, rare and expensive to work with delivering the most firepower per person becomes the most important metric in the warfare. Thus the ease of pilot to hand the greatest power is high and the more instinctive it is the better (this works better for suits integrated with the pilot's nervous system as a control mechanism) thus a suit in which ones actions are directly translated to the battlefield becomes more useful than the stability/cost advantages of a wheeled type platform. (is this rational? Probably not but will it work as a rationalization? Probably)

EDIT: also issues crop up where you put the line between large power armour and small mecha. For example d20 Future had rules for Large thru Colossal Mecha but the large and possibly even huge could be treated like super infantry in a large enough scale battle.

Fri
2015-11-11, 07:02 PM
Given how quickly a tank without a supply train runs out of fuel, ammo, treads, etc - no, they can't.

That's part of the premise. I didn't explain it because it's just a short summary. Basically the society can magically produce giant robots, so they also can magically produce supplies for the tank. But finding artificers that want to do it for them etc, that's part of their problems. Should they ally themselves to one of the warring kingdoms so they can get constant supply and repairs? Finding rogue artificers? etc.

Kitten Champion
2015-11-11, 07:23 PM
Sort of taking the Macross route, the mecha were initially power armour for a race of technologically/magically advanced Giants but converted to be manipulated by standard-sized humanoids to great effect.

SkipSandwich
2015-11-11, 07:24 PM
Perhaps the robots were developed for use in a conflict with naturally giant humanoids, so that humans could make effective use of the scaled up buildings and infrastructure of their opponents, mecha could have originally been diplomatic vehicles that were later weaponized after some incident sparked tensions into war.

Fri
2015-11-11, 07:29 PM
I actually really like making setting justifications like this. Especially for giant humanoid mechas.

What else I wonder.

The giant mechas are actually personification of individuals' psyche. Most people's psyche materializes as giant humanoid creatures (which are mechanical because that's the series' visual theme :smallcool:) though some interesting people might have non-humanoid ones (andreally interesting people might not look mechanical.

Tengu_temp
2015-11-11, 07:45 PM
A few ideas that weren't mentioned yet:

Mecha work on not entirely understood black box technology reverse-engineered from aliens/ancient civilization/weird psychic research/etc, that makes a humanoid war machine much more efficient than it should have been when applying normal laws of physics. Full Metal Panic does this, and also combines it with a variation on the "mecha copy the movements of the pilot" thing.

Most of the fighting takes place in a very thick, hilly jungle. Wheeled and tracked vehicle are slowed down to a crawl by the difficult terrain, aircraft can fly over but can't enter the jungle itself. You need a machine that can move through rough terrain, cover obstables, and right itself if it falls - a humanoid shape fits those criteria best. Fang of Sun Dougram does this.

tensai_oni
2015-11-11, 07:45 PM
-Mecha are humanoid because of a man machine interface that translates the pilot's mental movements into the unit moving (Martian Successor Nadesico, many others)
-Mecha are humanoid because of black box technology that somehow works with humanoid machines but not with normal ones (Full Metal Panic!)
-Mecha are humanoid because they are not machines of war per se, but used to maintain peace (Patlabor) or suppress the population from revolting (Gundam Wing), and a giant humanoid is scarier and more effective psychologically than a box on wheels
-Mecha are humanoid because they are used by powerful rulers of nations with money to burn, and the more blinged out and knightlike your unit the better you look (Five Star Stories)
-Mecha are humanoid because they are used for mecha sports and the rules say they need to be humanoid (Basquash)
-Mecha are humanoid because they are built around skeletons of ancient dead creatures (Eureka Seven, to a lesser extent Gasaraki) or just giant humanoid monsters (Neon Genesis Evangelion)
-Mecha are humanoid because a human-like form is most evolved and everything is more powerful when it's humanoid, or even turns more humanoid as it grows in power (Gurren Lagann, to an extent Getter Robo)
-Mecha are humanoid because they are part of combined arms warfare and that part calls for agile units that are both relatively fast and can move in very difficult terrain, so the humanoid form is the best for it on average (Armored Trooper VOTOMs, Muv Luv)
-Mecha are humanoid because the only way to face off against giant monsters is to melee them with something equally large (Pacific Rim)

But in the end it boils down to...

-Mecha are humanoid because it's cool (everything)

Tengu_temp
2015-11-11, 07:53 PM
The mecha are actually sapient robotic aliens who can move and act on their own but are much more powerful if they've entered contract with another smaller being who pilots them.

Fri
2015-11-11, 07:55 PM
Another idea I had for a story.

There's this town of giant creatures. Giants, dragons, hydras, many kind of huge sentient creatures live in this peaceful, yet often violent town. smaller humanoids also live there, but to interact with the giant creatures, they use this magical giant armor. So basically in the town, outside of their own home/community, the smaller-sized folks uses this giant armor to interact and protect themselves. So there's this mecha bartender serving drinks for these dragons, mecha construction worker working side by side with a giant two-headed ogre, and so on.

Though the main purpose of this idea is, so I can have a mecha-detective. A giant robot with long coat and a hat skulking in alleys following suspects :smalltongue:

Spamotron
2015-11-11, 08:12 PM
The Mecha is in a magi tech setting where the magic is based on symbols/ concepts. A giant metal humanoid is a very powerful symbol. It grants enough mystical oomph that the other technical headaches are worth it. Symbolically significant animal mechs exist too.

Honest Tiefling
2015-11-11, 08:14 PM
I like Cthulhutech's reasoning.

The magic engine that give you unlimited energy also psychically give the pilot of vehicles it's equipped with a heightened sense of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception. You could put it in a tank but it'd be a waste (and make the pilot feels like a box). Put it in a humanoid machine, and you're golden.

I now want a setting where researchers keep screwing around with pilots and force them into feeling like their bodies have gone all bonkers. 'Pilot, you WILL test the new kitty tank, whether you like it or not. That's an order. Now, tell me how those whiskers feel...'

GorinichSerpant
2015-11-11, 08:44 PM
The secret of the universe is that physics is a lie and the only reason the sun rises, gravity works and so forth is because enough people believe in it. Sense the vast majority of people aren't aware that under conventional physics this shouldn't work, mecha are possible. The scientists who should know why this doesn't work have concluded that physics work different with larger beings, like giants, dragons and so forth.

Arbane
2015-11-11, 09:21 PM
Because of the Principle of Morphic Resonance, it's vastly easier to animate something if it's structurally similar to an already-existing living thing. This is why artificers make mechanical horses instead of auto-mobile carriages, and why giant war machines look like giant armored knights.

Because you can't use your kung-fu with a tank.

Thinker
2015-11-11, 10:08 PM
Once every generation there's a great tournament held between the realms for supremacy. Each world's greatest warriors participate. Failure might mean the end of the world as we know it. The problem is, humans aren't the biggest race. To make it fair, the Keepers, who maintain the integrity of the tournament have given power armors to the lesser folk. Since they're free and more effective than running around as a normal person, the heroes use them to help face challenges on Earth, too (and to help stave off influences of other realms between the tournaments).

Milo v3
2015-11-12, 12:37 AM
Because of a lack of psychopomps in the cities, all the souls of it's citizens end up trapped in their inanimate decaying corpses, upon discovering this the paladins decided to give the poor souls mercy and worked with the necromancers to produce powerstations that use souls for fuel (thus ending the torture of feeling your corpse rot and break appart and the unending isolation that results from being trapped in your own body, eventually unable to see once your eyes deteriorate, and losing memories as your brain rots). The electricity produced functions as normal in everyway, except that it seems to function at impossible levels of efficiency when in a device shaped like the souls the electricity was made from. The paladins then used that knowledge to build powered exoskeletons, shocking gloves, cybernetics, and mecha. Animal electricity did need to be kept seperate from human electricity though, and some cities simply decide to dump the animal corpses into the wilderness where psychopomps have a chance of reaching.

Kane0
2015-11-12, 01:42 AM
You see, a long while back there was this dispute between gnomes and dwarves on who could make the best stuff. The elves proposed a contest in order to dodge a war, and the two races competed to make the most fearsome, most brutal and most effective machine (which took a couple generations).
But the bastard humans ruined everything. Always the opportunists, and not actually knowing why they were building these because of their short lifespans, they stole bits and pieces from both sides and crammed them all inside golems to protect thenselves against halfling attacks.
Of course you see the results around you today, turns out halflings can fit inside the things and control them! And thats why we're all slaves to the hairy foot warlords.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-12, 07:11 AM
My thoughts on how you might justify mechs:


Cover: In urban and rocky environments, mechas are far more versatile in taking and shooting around cover. They can crouch, stand, and possibly crawl, in order to take and shoot over cover. They fire from multiple angles, meaning there are few targets they are unable to hit.

Reverse Slope: The popular form of cover for tanks is to sit down a reverse slope, then shoot whatever comes over the rise. Mechs can lean forward and peek over the rise, using it as cover. This gives them the high ground, and better cover than what the tanks they're facing are likely to have.

Tank Traps and Pits: A suitably mobile mech can crawl and climb over tank traps and pits. Jump-jet assisted jumping may eventually be a possibility.

Tread vs. Leg: I think legs are given a bit of an unfair wrap. Treads can be taken out by mines and grenades, just like the legs can be. If the mech can crawl, it can still function even with one or both legs destroyed.

Fall-over Mech = Dead Pilot: There is the question of how the pilot survives if the mech falls over backwards. I think we might develop some better systems to let a pilot manage more Gs in the future, but currently we have no idea if that is the case. The simplest answer to this problem is to have an ejection seat fire if the pilot is put in that much danger. Other possibility include shock-absorbing springs deploying in the direction the mech is falling, or maybe even a kind of air-bag like those in cars.

Versatility: A mech can use any weapon that fit with it's "hand" modules. Or, it could just replace the whole limb at a workshop in ten minutes. You can do some of that with tanks, but it isn't so convenient. The question is whether being able to deploy a vehicle with just about any weapon would be that useful. APCs have enjoyed some of that, strapping on all sorts of rockets and the like. APCs are a better comparison, as their weapons are less built into them than with tanks, and they're known to do pretty well with their versatile selection of weapons (to the extent where commanders have been berated for using their APCs like tanks). Mechs would simply be taking that further, having an even more versatile weapons platform.

Location: If fighting is forced to be in these primarily rocky and urban environments, then that negates some of tanks' advantages in other areas. Urban environments isn't hard, as fighting tends to go to cities. To keep it to rocky areas, it'd normally be a mineral like uranium or oil, or possibly something more fancy like nuclear weapons silos (capturing enemy silos would be important).



Those are my current ideas.

Inspector Valin
2015-11-12, 11:12 AM
How best to justify mecha varies wildly depending on what kind of setting you're going for. And also on what size of mecha for that matter.

In PonyMech, I went for the idea of FTL limitations. It's hard to build massive troop transports that can still be fired through a fixed FTL cannon, so the Widdershins went for smaller (but still pretty damn big) mechs, with the armament to fight armies on their own.

In a more fantasy world, I'm fond of the idea of Mecha as essentially extentions of suits of armor. After all, magical full-plate is already crazy light by RW standards. So why not go bigger with it? Turning that around, there are plenty of horror stories of golems turning on their masters or being usurped by whoever gets their key... so why not make your golem army controlled by mortal men, who you can get a much firmer handle on and who are known for showing initative and disposing of problems without needing oversight?

The Glyphstone
2015-11-12, 12:25 PM
You see, a long while back there was this dispute between gnomes and dwarves on who could make the best stuff. The elves proposed a contest in order to dodge a war, and the two races competed to make the most fearsome, most brutal and most effective machine (which took a couple generations).
But the bastard humans ruined everything. Always the opportunists, and not actually knowing why they were building these because of their short lifespans, they stole bits and pieces from both sides and crammed them all inside golems to protect thenselves against halfling attacks.
Of course you see the results around you today, turns out halflings can fit inside the things and control them! And thats why we're all slaves to the hairy foot warlords. lovingly guarded and protected by our benevolent hairy-footed friends.

Don't want you to get squashed for disloyal sentiments now, do we?

AceOfFools
2015-11-12, 02:00 PM
I'm rather partial to the idea that mecha are used because they are cool.

They're vehicles used for giant mecha gladatoriql fights, and other, more effective machines are used for serious war.

...

Mo-cap (motion capture) also works great if you have a wuxia feel. If a comet kick is more powerful than bullets, clearly you wage wars by building a giant machines capable of comet kicking an entire army of warrior monks in one blow.

Nerd-o-rama
2015-11-12, 02:45 PM
Oh look, it's this thread again.

Basically, I figure you need a reasoning why the following won't work for the role you're using giant robots for:

1) Treads and wheels
2) Aircraft
3) Over-the-horizon guided missiles
4) Things that don't have hands.

The original Mobile Suit Gundam worked this out reasonably well, in that the giant robots were mostly intended for space combat and they had a setting element (Minovsky particles, byproduct of the fusion reactors military vehicles used in that day and age) that made most guided weapons useless. Eventually this was gotten around with psychically-guided weapons, but psychic guidance technology also let certain people treat the giant robots as extensions of their bodies, which was more apparently effective with a humanoid shape, so there you go.

It also pays to consider the practical limitations of the humanoid shape:

1) It hurts more than it helps once you get past about a few meters tall due to the square-cube law and having a larger sillhouette
2) No matter what terrain it can clamber over, it will never move as fast as a wheeled, treaded, or aerodynamic flying vehicle
3) the control system is likely to be far too complicated for the "aircraft-style" single-seater cockpits you usually see in anime.

Full Metal Panic! and, oddly, the first season of Code Geass address these fairly well (largely by taking ideas from less-well-known-in-America shows like Armored Trooper VOTOMS) - humanoid mechs aren't more than 10 meters tall barring insane mad science projects, meaning they don't collapse under their own weight and can take cover in an urban or forest environment, mechs in Code Geass are usually equipped with "roller-skate" wheels on the feet that allow them to rush across level terrain and roads, and mechs in Full Metal Panic have motion controls mapped to the users' hands for the upper half of the mech (hence why they're called Arm Slaves in that universe). Honestly, novel control systems are some of my favorite things to see in mecha anime, or even robots that are almost entirely automated and you only have a human in the cockpit because you want someone accountable to military chain of command pulling the trigger on the weapons.

Basically there are a lot of different ways to justify this, but they all revolve around the need for humanoid robots vs. other types of vehicle, and balancing out the inherent weaknesses of the design. Or just coming up with a setting where this stuff is expected, but that often amounts to "It's Magic". Which I think is fine, but god forbid we have fun watching television instead of overanalyzing and justifying everything.

Fri
2015-11-12, 02:49 PM
Oh look, it's this thread again.

Basically, I figure you need a reasoning why the following won't work for the role you're using giant robots for:

1) Treads and wheels
2) Aircraft
3) Over-the-horizon guided missiles
4) Things that don't have hands.

The original Mobile Suit Gundam worked this out reasonably well, in that the giant robots were mostly intended for space combat and they had a setting element (Minovsky particles, byproduct of the fusion reactors military vehicles used in that day and age) that made most guided weapons useless. Eventually this was gotten around with psychically-guided weapons, but psychic guidance technology also let certain people treat the giant robots as extensions of their bodies, which was more apparently effective with a humanoid shape, so there you go.

It also pays to consider the practical limitations of the humanoid shape:

1) It hurts more than it helps once you get past about a few meters tall due to the square-cube law and having a larger sillhouette
2) No matter what terrain it can clamber over, it will never move as fast as a wheeled, treaded, or aerodynamic flying vehicle
3) the control system is likely to be far too complicated for the "aircraft-style" single-seater cockpits you usually see in anime.

Full Metal Panic! and, oddly, the first season of Code Geass address these fairly well (largely by taking ideas from less-well-known-in-America shows like Armored Trooper VOTOMS) - humanoid mechs aren't more than 10 meters tall barring insane mad science projects, meaning they don't collapse under their own weight and can take cover in an urban or forest environment, mechs in Code Geass are usually equipped with "roller-skate" wheels on the feet that allow them to rush across level terrain and roads, and mechs in Full Metal Panic have motion controls mapped to the users' hands for the upper half of the mech (hence why they're called Arm Slaves in that universe). Honestly, novel control systems are some of my favorite things to see in mecha anime, or even robots that are almost entirely automated and you only have a human in the cockpit because you want someone accountable to military chain of command pulling the trigger on the weapons.

Basically there are a lot of different ways to justify this, but they all revolve around the need for humanoid robots vs. other types of vehicle, and balancing out the inherent weaknesses of the design. Or just coming up with a setting where this stuff is expected, but that often amounts to "It's Magic". Which I think is fine, but god forbid we have fun watching television instead of overanalyzing and justifying everything.

...I don't think this is the kind of thread you're thinking about Nerdo.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-12, 03:19 PM
I think the post fits the thread well enough.


Nerd: I mentioned my ideas for how to justify mecha above. I agree that over ten metres seems really excessive, and only works for high-magic technology mechs. For comparisons:

Wheels and Treads: It makes the most sense to fit your mech with some wheels or treads that they move by when not actively using their legs. Someone drew a pretty good design for this in a thread some time back, where the mech sat down to use its treads. This allows them to be decent in travel on roads and for longer distances. The advantage of mechs were mentioned in my earlier post.

Aircraft: Mechs only really need to have a reason for existing compared to other AFVs. Great as aircraft are, they can't hold ground. So long as you need to capture places, AFVs will likely see use.

Guided Missiles: The same argument could be slated against tanks, aircraft and even infantry and conventional warfare itself. Point-defence systems are getting better, and you need to have soldiers in the field before you even can sight targets for your long-range missiles. Germany fired many V-2 rockets at Britain, but it hardly won them the war. So either you go for nuclear rockets and risk/ensure mutual destruction, or you go with less rockets and beat the tar out of each other without end. You need to capture the source of these missiles or areas that force the enemy to surrender, so you can win and end the war.

Hands: The mechs don't necessarily need to have hands, and not necessarily human hands if they do. Hands can be useful for their versatility in carrying a variety of equipment, carrying wounded soldiers, moving debris, building defences by stacking sandbags or the like, helping other mechs put on new arms or the like, climbing, crawling, and manipulating and triggering a variety of weapon modules. Of course, you could just have a slot at the end of the forearm or wrist which you stick a weapon module in, or a sort of two-fingered claw which has some of the utility of grip which can slot into a weapon module.


Tallness: I don't see any need for a robot larger than ten metres. Ten metres is already too big I'd say. You mostly want it to be able to adjust its height and posture, so it can crawl, climb, and make use of varying forms of cover.

Speed: Already mentioned the possibility of added treads. Though I wonder how critical speed is considered to AFV fighting effectiveness, these days. Certainly, with infantry, it's better to make good use of cover than to move quickly. If you can't make good use of cover, moving quickly would be the next best thing.

Control System: It depends when the mechs are developed, and whether they're fly-by-wire or manual. UI has made some improvements over time, so I can see one of the futuristic ideas for control systems being utilized in the future. I mean, there are a lot of robots who can walk by themselves, so it depends on how much assistance is needed from the human pilot to get it to do what you want (and whether they're bipedal or quadrupeds).




Oh, one important potential strength I forgot: Myomers/Polymer Microactuators/Artificial Muscle: I don't think there's a way to get these to work with wheels, so this would be a big incentive to use legs if they pan out. One set of thermal activated ones was a 1,000 times more efficient than human muscle (though it seems unlikely they'll scale up), which was also more efficient than jet and diesel engines. Carbon nanotube microactuators seem more promising, and are still a few hundred times stronger than human muscle. You can read about the latter here: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/406969/ultrastrong-carbon-nanotube-muscles/ www.chemistry.illinois.edu/research/materials/seminar_abstracts/documents/YangAbstract.pdf

Fri
2015-11-12, 03:28 PM
Yeah, I know. The post fits the thread, but I'm reading his "oh look it's this thread again" and I think he thought this is one of those threads that pop out yearly in mad science or media subforum where people debate whether mechas are realistic or not.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-12, 03:34 PM
Ah, I see what you mean. Would be nice if someone did revive this topic in the science board, it was pretty interesting last time.

noob
2015-11-12, 03:50 PM
Maybe the mecha is integrated with VR tech that enables their pilots to instinctively control them through ease, although it may reach to a point where the human pilots believe that they are their own mecha.

I see tons of people driving their cars and believing they are their car without VR.

Segev
2015-11-12, 04:28 PM
One possibility would be a re-emergence of biological engineering. The humanoid template is one that can be grown efficiently for whatever technobabble reason, so the biomechs are really just a form of armor and increased force-application.

Square-cube law gets heavily in the way, here, but you can armor them up with whatever armor you were going to use to justify the fully-robotic mechs' survivability, at least.

Kane0
2015-11-12, 07:54 PM
Also, Timber Wolves need no justification.

Pew pew pew!

Reboot
2015-11-12, 08:34 PM
-Mecha are humanoid because they are used by powerful rulers of nations with money to burn, and the more blinged out and knightlike your unit the better you look (Five Star Stories)
-Mecha are humanoid because they are used for mecha sports and the rules say they need to be humanoid (Basquash)

These are easily the best of your list, especially the 'status symbol' one, simply because you're working *with* the fact that mecha are written in entirely for Rule of Cool reasons rather than trying to pretend that they are somehow the best/most practical/most evolved tool for the job.

Arutema
2015-11-12, 11:10 PM
Because the high-tech empire which invented them found its various enslaved humanoid species responded most favorably to an order if it was issued from a humanoid form.

They prefer robot UAVs and tanks to actually conquer a world, but for keeping it occupied, nothing terrorizes the population like a good number of soldier-overseers in 2-story tall power suits.

Jayngfet
2015-11-13, 01:49 AM
It works because the setting demands it.

Unless the walking speed of a mech is over one hundred miles per hour and they all come with in built heavy weaponry there's no point in not getting a tank. There's no real magical material that makes them viable because that material can just be applied to a tank to make it even better and raise the bar even higher. A mech game, like every other mech thing ever, works on the implicit understanding that everyone involved wants to see a mech fight. Most of these explanations basically boil down to "because magic" with a couple of sentences thrown in afterwards.

If you're running a mech game, just be honest with your players and have an agreement not to break things too hard. If you're publishing a game book with mechs or some homebrew, just be honest with your readers.

I mean yeah, if you want to make a specific thematic "point" with your robot game then that's a different ball game alltogether, but there's a vast gulf of difference between making a motif and making a justification.

BlacKnight
2015-11-13, 02:40 AM
It seems to me that a mecha should be a middle way between an IFV and a helicopter.
Able to cross impossible obstacles for an IFV, but less vulnerable than a helo.
It doesn't have to be compared with tanks.

Fri
2015-11-13, 02:51 AM
It works because the setting demands it.

Unless the walking speed of a mech is over one hundred miles per hour and they all come with in built heavy weaponry there's no point in not getting a tank. There's no real magical material that makes them viable because that material can just be applied to a tank to make it even better and raise the bar even higher. A mech game, like every other mech thing ever, works on the implicit understanding that everyone involved wants to see a mech fight. Most of these explanations basically boil down to "because magic" with a couple of sentences thrown in afterwards.

If you're running a mech game, just be honest with your players and have an agreement not to break things too hard. If you're publishing a game book with mechs or some homebrew, just be honest with your readers.

I mean yeah, if you want to make a specific thematic "point" with your robot game then that's a different ball game alltogether, but there's a vast gulf of difference between making a motif and making a justification.

Eeh, lots of people here write justifications that won't work with mech or helicopters or whatever.

Sure, basically it boils down to "because I want mech game" but making the justification is fun.

It's the difference between "this setting has magic because it is, okay?" and "the gods overthrow the titans with super soldiers but the super soldiers went corrupt and the world goes to dark age and now you're the reincarnation of those titan-killing super soldiers and that's why you're better than ordinary people and can burn people with your mind."

Roxxy
2015-11-13, 03:02 AM
It seems to me that a mecha should be a middle way between an IFV and a helicopter.
Able to cross impossible obstacles for an IFV, but less vulnerable than a helo.
It doesn't have to be compared with tanks.I like this. Might use it myself. I'm thinking mine come with something like two 7.62mm machine guns, a 30mm revolver cannon, a 40mm grenade launcher, two TOWs, and two SAMs (like, Stinger sized). You should be able to remove those missiles for unguided rocket pods if desired. It can kill a tank if it gets the drop on it, but in a straight fight? The tank wins almost every time. The main purpose is highly mobile fire support for the infantry, with the cannon and grenades to bash up an entrenched enemy's cover, attack strongpoints, and knock out light vehicles, the machine guns for suppression, and the missiles for self defense. Naturally, it would be extremely vulnerable if sent into battle alone. They need infantry as much as infantry needs them, and tank, artillery, and air support is likewise important. They also probably aren't super big. Remember the big robots in Robocop? Maybe that big. But with a person inside.

Yea, I'm liking this.

Tvtyrant
2015-11-13, 03:10 AM
In setting bipedal-ism is easier to coordinate than in real life, so the problems of making legs go aren't as bad as trying to make wheels work without roads.

Antigravity makes mechs very light, so they don't have size limitations and cannot sink. Basically the machine is floating and the feet just pull it forward; possibly works if they never developed propellers and jets. Those might not function in setting even; you can make floating machines easily, but flying is impossible in setting due to air density or some nonsense.

Armor has far, far outstripped weaponry, so mechs aren't in much danger of dying. They act as army platforms because they protect everything inside while fighting. Think siege towers in medieval times but with mechs; maybe they never got past catapults for weapons but they got some form of mech going through magic or inopportune steam development?

The same as above but with the development of unbreakable armor rather than weak weapons. Mechs are the most efficient way to make a walking fortress of riverine, as everything not made of riverine will collapse under massed cannon fire.

Steampunkette
2015-11-13, 04:55 AM
I want to play a game with giant robots.

The world now has giant robots.

Fin.

Or you could go the route that the common people tried to recreate living forms of brass and wood, steel and iron. Even in the Renaissance our greatest minds were building robots to look human or like horses rather than disembodied metal arms to copy text.

Just say that someone got it right and suddenly the horseless carriage never becomes a thing. You just build faster mechanical horses. And with warfare, a giant human body, or perhaps a centaur for stability, is a formidable machine of war.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-13, 07:25 AM
It works because the setting demands it.

Unless the walking speed of a mech is over one hundred miles per hour and they all come with in built heavy weaponry there's no point in not getting a tank. There's no real magical material that makes them viable because that material can just be applied to a tank to make it even better and raise the bar even higher. A mech game, like every other mech thing ever, works on the implicit understanding that everyone involved wants to see a mech fight. Most of these explanations basically boil down to "because magic" with a couple of sentences thrown in afterwards.

If you're running a mech game, just be honest with your players and have an agreement not to break things too hard. If you're publishing a game book with mechs or some homebrew, just be honest with your readers.

I mean yeah, if you want to make a specific thematic "point" with your robot game then that's a different ball game alltogether, but there's a vast gulf of difference between making a motif and making a justification. Beating 100MPH might be possible. Here's what we can do currently, with a quadruped robot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chPanW0QWhA
Depending on how well it scaled up, you'd probably get some speed with the larger stride (and lose some from armour and weapon weight).

For rare materials that apply to robots and not tanks, microactuators or artificial muscle are something which couldn't be applied to treads or wheels. A recent microactuator developed was more efficient than any jet engine or diesel engine, but it seemed difficult to scale it up. Carbon nanotubes based microactuators aren't quite as powerful, but they're looking more promising for upscaling: http://www.chemistry.illinois.edu/research/materials/seminar_abstracts/documents/YangAbstract.pdf http://www.technologyreview.com/news/406969/ultrastrong-carbon-nanotube-muscles/



It seems to me that a mecha should be a middle way between an IFV and a helicopter.
Able to cross impossible obstacles for an IFV, but less vulnerable than a helo.
It doesn't have to be compared with tanks. This was the main argument that popped up in a thread in the science board. If it can outmanoeuvre the tank and use cover, there's not much need for it to outfight the tank in the field.

Jayngfet
2015-11-13, 01:13 PM
Yes, but then you run into the obvious issue that that top speed is still less than half what some tanks can do, and tanks are far more maneuverable than many expect. If scaling a leg up for stride works, so does larger wheels and treads, which is also simpler.\

As for "synthetic muscles" you'd probably have them working on tank parts first, if only to pull components, which is also simpler.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-13, 01:38 PM
Umm, tanks have scaled up wheels to as much as is feasible. Tanks are fairly agile, but they're highly limited at taking cover.

You could get artificial muscle to do certain tasks inside a tank's machinery, possibly, but I can't think of any way to get them turning wheels (other than of course a bicycle, however efficient that ends up being).

Yaktan
2015-11-13, 02:03 PM
Why would you not be able to replace the pistons in a regular engine with actuators? They are a pure linear motion, but that does not stop them from turning wheels.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-13, 02:13 PM
Not sure. When the argument that they can't be used with wheels comes up, no one has countered it as far back as I recall. And I have seen it used against educated sceptics. It seems like you could use a bicycle or actuator system. Whether you can or not, I find it weird it hasn't been brought up before.

JeenLeen
2015-11-13, 02:16 PM
In the video game Ring of Red, mechs became common in Japan during World War II because the terrain there made bipedal vehicles more practical than tanks. I'm not claiming that the logic the game uses is logical, but they give some technical and historical speal.

I think the Front Mission games' history states that once someone invented a joint that works with giant mechs, it wasn't that hard to make giant mechs. I might be mistaken about that 'datum'.

Jayngfet
2015-11-13, 03:48 PM
Not sure. When the argument that they can't be used with wheels comes up, no one has countered it as far back as I recall. And I have seen it used against educated sceptics. It seems like you could use a bicycle or actuator system. Whether you can or not, I find it weird it hasn't been brought up before.

If necessary it'd basically work on the same mechanic as a bicycle and work fine. You don't need continuous part movement to get continuous vehicle movement.

As for being low agile and taking cover, as mech scale you'd need heavy buildings to take cover with, and those buildings take hits worse than a tank anyway. Anything you'd need to take cover from, you couldn't get cover with anything.

JoeJ
2015-11-13, 04:18 PM
How big do the mechs have to be to count? You can always take the 2300 AD approach and have combat walkers that are bipedal and maybe 3 to 3.5 meters high. On the battlefield they're intended to provide heavy weapons support for an infantry platoon, not to replace tanks, although they do have a significant AT capability. Being bipedal, as well as smaller and lighter than most vehicles, they can go almost anywhere that an infantryman can go.

The Glyphstone
2015-11-13, 04:19 PM
Are we now imagining giant mecha riding mecha-scale bicycles? Because if not, we should be.

Segev
2015-11-13, 04:27 PM
"Why would you use a bipedal giant robot instead of a tank?"

"Because a bipedal giant robot can have a single pilot who has the complexity of his controls reduced to a body-mapping system."



That is: you can have a giant robot be a strong, armored weapons platform with all the versatility of a human body with just one pilot, if the giant robot is one that has the control system be, effectively, a mirror of what the pilot is doing internally. With a bit of handwavium, the human balance capability can even translate fairly directly. You'd need voice activations or something to allow for non-human-motion behaviors, bit it'd be doable.

Tanks, on the other hand, require crews to man them. You have multiple people to each tank. You could (arguably enough for fiction) design giant robots as one-man tank-replacements. Or you could give them more of an "armored infantry" role, holding ground the way soldiers outside of tanks are used to do so.

JoeJ
2015-11-13, 04:34 PM
"Why would you use a bipedal giant robot instead of a tank?"

"Because a bipedal giant robot can have a single pilot who has the complexity of his controls reduced to a body-mapping system."



That is: you can have a giant robot be a strong, armored weapons platform with all the versatility of a human body with just one pilot, if the giant robot is one that has the control system be, effectively, a mirror of what the pilot is doing internally. With a bit of handwavium, the human balance capability can even translate fairly directly. You'd need voice activations or something to allow for non-human-motion behaviors, bit it'd be doable.

Tanks, on the other hand, require crews to man them. You have multiple people to each tank. You could (arguably enough for fiction) design giant robots as one-man tank-replacements. Or you could give them more of an "armored infantry" role, holding ground the way soldiers outside of tanks are used to do so.

Alternatively, if you want a larger crew, you can have five smaller single-pilot vehicles for more versatility, then join them together to form the giant humanoid robot when you need more power.

Mr. Mask
2015-11-13, 04:36 PM
Jayn: Well, unlike the absurdly tall mechs in some fiction, I figure you'd only want mechs a few metres tall. They can crouch or sit or crawl to take advantage of most cover.

noob
2015-11-13, 04:37 PM
It would be easy with current technology to make tanks crewed by only one person(or even 0) but that is more expensive than one crewed by multiple people.
Doing a giant mecha on the other hand is really costly because you need to have tons of motors(way more than in a tank) and complex articulations and other stuff of this kind and making it crewed by one person would still cost way more than a one man tank.
A funny way to explain giant mecha would be if another civilization came and said "We find giant mech battles awesome and so we will give you giant mecha for free and we will film the wars"
Now even if those mechas are crappy if they are better than being on foot they will be used since they are Free they become suddenly more interesting.

BRC
2015-11-13, 04:41 PM
Humanoid Mecha started as an elaborate piece of psychological warfare designed to make Aliens think that any humans they meet were just a larval form of the species, with fully mature humans being massive metal warmachines.

Fearan
2015-11-13, 04:43 PM
Given how quickly a tank without a supply train runs out of fuel, ammo, treads, etc - no, they can't.
Fuel problem is traditionnaly solved by binding a spirit of kitten to a tank

noob
2015-11-13, 04:48 PM
Fuel problem is traditionnaly solved by binding a spirit of kitten to a tank
Or by being a hero(heroes never have problems when that would make them fail)
(Trust me you do not want to bind the spirit of a predator inside of something: kittens wants to kill everybody)
If someone start complaining about energy problems do not forget that giant mecha would encounter them more frequently.
And if someone start speaking of spirits binding to only things of their own shape then you can have hamster spirits rolling in adapted cages for powering the tank.

Honest Tiefling
2015-11-13, 05:09 PM
Fuel problem is traditionnaly solved by binding a spirit of kitten to a tank

You sir, I like how you think. The mind of a predator with the need for affection and comfort. Win win!

Cluedrew
2015-11-13, 07:05 PM
Well, I thought up this post earlier in the thread but I didn't have time to post. However I think the points are still good.

Because they are cool. Acknowledge it setting and have people put the extra effort in over tanks, helicopters (orbital lasers) not because it is efficient but because it is awesome.

A few examples: One is a futuristic society where gladiator combat is the worlds' (yes plural possessive) most popular sport. Of course now the fighters spend the whole fight in the announcers box, remote controlling 4 story robots that fight as proxies within an arena so massive it has its own public transit system. Of course the events are rather expensive, so only huge tournaments and finals get 'real' matches, the rest are computer simulated. And there are of course different leagues, humanoid, humanoid with melee weapons (oversized swords and scythes), beast-like and so on.

Another from a gritty world were mechs existed, but were only deployed as members of various honor guards. And even then they world be mixed in with tanks and soldiers.

Although those are pure science explanations if you mix in some magic than you have other options. Two that I don't think have been mentioned are: due to the differing types of 'technology' the means to create mechs became available long before vehicular combat was a big deal, so people just didn't think to build tanks.

The other is amplifiers, which is basically the 'same weapon but bigger' rule applied to spell casting. So the mech is piloted by a wizard, who chants over the speakers, makes the proper motions with the mech's mechanical hands and takes bundle of bat guano out of the mech's built in spell component compartment and casts Giant Fireball. So basically a human shaped artillery cannon.

I will admit that most stories have to be built to have mechs in them, otherwise they just don't work. My compromise if I want a bit of mech is usually power armour, gives most of the benefits of the mech aesthetic except for scale while being a lot easier to justify. In fact, sometimes they creep into stories on their own, being essentially the bracers of strength of science.

Spamotron
2015-11-13, 11:00 PM
Powered Armor is kind of cheating for threads like these. Pretty much everyone admits that if the power supply problem is solved human scale powered armor/exoskeletons are practical and useful. Smaller mecha that are around 3-4 meters which blurr the line with powered armor are a definite maybe.

Fable Wright
2015-11-14, 12:17 AM
Humans really are a larval form for giant death machines. When they die, their souls transmute down to the center of the planet, swirling in molten iron for ages until they meet enough new souls to conglomerate into one form. When a critical density is reached, they are ejected from the core along with the iron they inhabit, erupting out of volcanoes as giant human-shaped self-powered nigh-indestructible gods of death. Unfortunately, it takes millions of souls to get just one mecha, and most of the mecha the earth pop out are just sunk at the bottom of the ocean, powered, but unmoved. It was only when the global population density was high enough, and technology developed enough to sustain that population, that the first mecha was uncovered. This led to them becoming humanity's greatest natural resources, and people rapidly discovered ways to chart where the mecha would emerge.

Thus, a combination of being extremely effective and naturally occurring makes them the most preferred war engine one could bring. Being forged out of the souls of one's ancestors is a plus.

GorinichSerpant
2015-11-14, 02:12 AM
Humans really are a larval form for giant death machines. When they die, their souls transmute down to the center of the planet, swirling in molten iron for ages until they meet enough new souls to conglomerate into one form. When a critical density is reached, they are ejected from the core along with the iron they inhabit, erupting out of volcanoes as giant human-shaped self-powered nigh-indestructible gods of death. Unfortunately, it takes millions of souls to get just one mecha, and most of the mecha the earth pop out are just sunk at the bottom of the ocean, powered, but unmoved. It was only when the global population density was high enough, and technology developed enough to sustain that population, that the first mecha was uncovered. This led to them becoming humanity's greatest natural resources, and people rapidly discovered ways to chart where the mecha would emerge.

Thus, a combination of being extremely effective and naturally occurring makes them the most preferred war engine one could bring. Being forged out of the souls of one's ancestors is a plus.

Do they have sentience? Do they have a distinct personality and self identity? What is stopping them from rampaging in the streets. Either way this is a pretty cool idea.

Fable Wright
2015-11-14, 02:44 PM
Do they have sentience? Do they have a distinct personality and self identity? What is stopping them from rampaging in the streets. Either way this is a pretty cool idea.

They have sentience, personality, and self-identity of a sort. Each spirit in them is still distinct, but they have a form of gestalt mouthpiece soul that will speak for the majority opinion. However, they have problems when they try to move on their own; all the spirits in them want to move in different directions and do different things, so for the most part, they stand around and do nothing, unless a humongous tragedy is going on that nearly every soul in the mecha wants to help prevent. This is alleviated with a pilot; anyone in the cockpit is able to communicate with the mouthpiece, and the spirits almost always tend to agree to act on the whims of a human pilot, unless the pilot is doing something that they oppose with every fiber of their body.

Thus the practice of finding pilots highly compatible with a mecha, and sending them to do heroic things rather than, say, gunning down helpless innocents that might cause dissonance within the mech.

Zephonim
2015-11-14, 03:07 PM
Intimidation Tactics

Sith_Happens
2015-11-14, 05:29 PM
Because you can't use your kung-fu with a tank.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f0/54/7f/f0547f23d2d898859ed839224c697586.jpg

The Glyphstone
2015-11-14, 08:05 PM
If you mount a humanoid torso with arms and a head on top of a tracked chassis, does it count as a tank you can do kung fu with?

Mr. Mask
2015-11-14, 09:08 PM
I think that'd be boxing. (http://www.theoldrobots.com/images61/RockEm-70.JPG)

The Glyphstone
2015-11-14, 10:31 PM
Okay, now I want to see an anime where the mecha are torsos on tank treads and box with each other.

noob
2015-11-15, 06:16 AM
I believe that there is mechas with tracks instead of legs but I do not remember seeing any boxing(there was maybe some fights with axes and stuff of this kind).

Nerd-o-rama
2015-11-16, 11:28 AM
See, even if it wasn't This Thread Again to begin with, Jayngfet successfully steered it in that direction.

I do like comparing mecha more to very agile IFVs or helicopters-that-can-take-cover than tanks, though. You want something that moves in a straight line along mostly-level (if not necessarily even) terrain, yeah, get a tank. You want something lighter that can maneuver in tighter spaces or clamber up a mountain without the vulnerability of aircraft, how about 5-10 meters of walking armor instead? Tanks aren't the sole deciding factor of modern land warfare, after all, nor are jet fighter-bombers or cruise missiles.

halcyonforever
2015-11-16, 11:34 AM
They interface with the pilot on a neural level, and it's just a lot simpler to train people "your hand moves this hand" than "move these wheels like you would move a limb you don't have."

I like this answer. Although I do remember some descriptions from the Shadowrun novels where a rigger described the sensations of having their nerves wired into the different systems, the armor felt like their skin, engine like their organs etc...

halcyonforever
2015-11-16, 11:37 AM
Powered Armor is kind of cheating for threads like these. Pretty much everyone admits that if the power supply problem is solved human scale powered armor/exoskeletons are practical and useful. Smaller mecha that are around 3-4 meters which blurr the line with powered armor are a definite maybe.

It's actually starting to show up as pretty useful when you have a good power supply. Saw a demo unit that was tethered to a UH-60, soldier in powered armor could jump off and load 100's of lbs of gear like it was nothing.

Drascin
2015-11-16, 06:42 PM
See, even if it wasn't This Thread Again to begin with, Jayngfet successfully steered it in that direction.

I do like comparing mecha more to very agile IFVs or helicopters-that-can-take-cover than tanks, though. You want something that moves in a straight line along mostly-level (if not necessarily even) terrain, yeah, get a tank. You want something lighter that can maneuver in tighter spaces or clamber up a mountain without the vulnerability of aircraft, how about 5-10 meters of walking armor instead? Tanks aren't the sole deciding factor of modern land warfare, after all, nor are jet fighter-bombers or cruise missiles.

I never quite get why people insist on always comparing mechs to tanks. In half the series that build the "norm" of Japanese giant robots, the mechs are clearly depicted much closer to fighter jets and similar things than tanks. Like, you could argue that fighters are superior to mechs, and you'd probably be right, but at least then you're actually comparing things that are related.

Hawkstar
2015-11-16, 09:42 PM
... I can't help but feel that metals are too malleable to use to build the chassis of a giant mech, since it would get bent out of shape by just walking, much less getting knocked around. Are they some sort of flexible polymer skeleton under a metallic shell?

LnGrrrR
2015-11-17, 11:00 AM
What about a semi-post-apocalyptic world where roads are often blocked? They're designing bipedal robots now to help with search and recovery/rescue efforts. You could always extrapolate a mech designed from those origins. Another idea that I haven't seen floated about is a "walker" bot. It could be a shuffler, or maybe a spider-type of leg system, but whatever it is, it maintains a lower center of gravity so you don't have to worry so much about being toppled over by a strong breeze or tripping hazards.

Lvl 2 Expert
2015-11-17, 03:40 PM
Mecha are theropod dinosaur shaped because it allows easy travel through rough terrain with the minimal amount of legs needed, the shape relatively low slung and good at using cover yet has all the maneuverability to turn on a dime and attack whatever's behind you. The bots have relatively small hands and a single crushing jaw for the really heavy lifting.

Mecha are land croc shaped because that form is even better at using cover. it has more traction and acceleration through having more legs (which are shorter to minimize the weight gain and optimise cover use, which results in a lower top speed) and still has the same crushing jaw for heavy lifting.

Mecha are bird shaped because that way they're more than a bird, and more than a plane. (They're a birdplane.)

I liked quite a few explanations in this thread, but the game is even better when you join in playing.

BRC
2015-11-17, 04:26 PM
Must these mecha be used for combat? While a humanoid mech is a very poor shape to build a giant war machine, it IS a rather versatile form that could theoretically make it ideal for other uses. The vertical alignment, a distinct disadvantage if people are shooting you, means it takes up less space and can work in a smaller space. For example, if a giant mech was used to aid construction, it would be far more maneuverable in a crowded construction site than a traded vehicle. Assuming tech levels are high enough to allow good balance and precision, a mech could function as a crane, a backhoe, a bulldozer, or many other tasks.

Taet
2015-11-17, 06:43 PM
Must these mecha be used for combat? While a humanoid mech is a very poor shape to build a giant war machine, it IS a rather versatile form that could theoretically make it ideal for other uses. The vertical alignment, a distinct disadvantage if people are shooting you, means it takes up less space and can work in a smaller space. For example, if a giant mech was used to aid construction, it would be far more maneuverable in a crowded construction site than a traded vehicle. Assuming tech levels are high enough to allow good balance and precision, a mech could function as a crane, a backhoe, a bulldozer, or many other tasks.
This is close to what I was thinking.

Tanks are the best military idea, so tanks fight tanks. But what about the unwritten rules that soldiers must be soldiers and ordinary people must be ordinary people? A power armor suit is not a fighter and must not be targeted like a fighter and must be shot if it starts to behave like a fighter.

Or you do not get the uncanny valley effect against a mob when you send in a tank. But send in something that is as tall to them as their parents were to them when they were small and weak. Maybe they are a people with a deep tie to family and that is enough to make them flee. And the soldiers of those people have to have that tie to the family cut out of them when they join the army.

Susano-wo
2015-11-17, 11:55 PM
I never quite get why people insist on always comparing mechs to tanks. In half the series that build the "norm" of Japanese giant robots, the mechs are clearly depicted much closer to fighter jets and similar things than tanks. Like, you could argue that fighters are superior to mechs, and you'd probably be right, but at least then you're actually comparing things that are related.

I hate to be rude, but citation, please? I am struggling to think of series outside a small handful that even partially treat them like this. The only ones that come to mind are the Macross family of shows, and Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross, and even those have transformable mecha to be used as jets and primary ground forces. I suppose you can add in mecha in space, but only those shows where tht is the primary/only mode the operate in, such as Knights of Sidonia, Space Battleship Nadesico, or Gunbuster.

Though it is true, as others I think have said, that you have to consider what you want them to do, and compare them to that. To that end, the two uses that seem the most plausible are where you want the combat frames to also be able to interact with mecha scaled objects like a human does, whether because of a better interface, or what have you, and smaller mecha, used more as enhanced infantry or mobile assault platforms (looking at you, Gasaraki and Heavy Gear). In those scenarios, Tanks are still the heavies, but Mecha has its place.

Sasaisen
2015-11-18, 08:18 AM
Something I haven't seen pointed out is that, while being bipedal and vertical gives you a larger profile from the side, it gives you a smaller profile from above. Couple that with potentially increased maneuverability and the ability to take cover, if you're predominantly worried about munitions or lasers from the sky, walkers might be the way to go.


I hate to be rude, but citation, please? I am struggling to think of series outside a small handful that even partially treat them like this. The only ones that come to mind are the Macross family of shows, and Super Dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross, and even those have transformable mecha to be used as jets and primary ground forces. I suppose you can add in mecha in space, but only those shows where tht is the primary/only mode the operate in, such as Knights of Sidonia, Space Battleship Nadesico, or Gunbuster.

Though it is true, as others I think have said, that you have to consider what you want them to do, and compare them to that. To that end, the two uses that seem the most plausible are where you want the combat frames to also be able to interact with mecha scaled objects like a human does, whether because of a better interface, or what have you, and smaller mecha, used more as enhanced infantry or mobile assault platforms (looking at you, Gasaraki and Heavy Gear). In those scenarios, Tanks are still the heavies, but Mecha has its place.

It's kinda inherent in the piloting model. Tanks are operated by crews, fighters are operated by one or two people. Which do mechs generally skew towards?

Hunter Noventa
2015-11-18, 09:04 AM
I think the Front Mission games' history states that once someone invented a joint that works with giant mechs, it wasn't that hard to make giant mechs. I might be mistaken about that 'datum'.

Not to mention that in the Front Mission games, Tanks and helicopters are still a very real threat to the wanzers. If your squad lacks a mecha with a missile launcher, you're gonna have a real hard time against helicopters for example. The main advantage of mecha in Front Mission is that they can hotswap weaponry, and are more agile than say a tank.

Gravitron5000
2015-11-18, 09:17 AM
Go ahead. Tell the giant robot death machine with more missiles than microprocessors that it shouldn't exist. See how well that goes for you. I hope you enjoy your blast crater.

Hawkstar
2015-11-18, 10:17 AM
Hmm... the idea of mechs being repurposed construction equipment seems cool - it also explains why they're militarized.

A fortress is most vulnerable when it's under construction. Mechs can build things pretty quickly due to their size and strength. When the enemy army comes trying to knock the place down, you want everyone to be able to defend the place... especially if it's against an enemy that doesn't take prisoners properly. Adding machineguns and anti-tank weaponry to a construction mech to assist in defense only makes sense.

... and then you start scaling the mechs up, improving the weaponry, and start using them to advance and build fortifications while

Ooh - you could even make their construction arms have smaller construction arms built into them, extending down to the size you need for building, with twenty-six layers per arm total, labeled alphabetically from largest - for building large-scale fortifications, to smallest, working on the nanoscale. We can call them "Lensman Integrated Telescoping Tactical and Logistics Enhanced Construction Armatures and Tool Systems"(LITTLECATS). LITTLECAT Z is equipped with the Versatile Orthographic Orientation Machine. (VOOM)

Lvl 2 Expert
2015-11-18, 12:55 PM
It's kinda inherent in the piloting model. Tanks are operated by crews, fighters are operated by one or two people. Which do mechs generally skew towards?

But that doesn't say a lot about their combat role. A tank with an autoloader, a tomtom and a multitasking genius in its single seat would still be a tank. It has an advantage over other tanks: it needs less payed and trained crew, which are lost when the vehicle explodes. That has all sorts of impacts on say the amount of vehicles you can field, but it doesn't give the thing wings and a jet engine.

I'm assuming for a moment that mecha generally operate on the ground. That's what the legs are for. If they are a form of control, supposed to be able to take a hit or two while dealing out heavy hits of their own over a (for non-artillery units) long range then they're pretty close to tanks. If they are generally geared towards other goals like mobility, surprise attacks, engineering, transport and support of infantry (or other small units) or electronic warfare they might be best compared to other combat vehicles. But when their most important role is on the ground, those will generally be ground vehicles. If the mecha can fly but only do so to get to the combat zone (because as Schlock Mercenary teaches us a flying soldier on the battlefield is skeet) they are still ground vehicles, just air droppable ones (and everything is air droppable at least ones). Mounted infantry is still infantry, it's the fighting style that counts. In series where the mecha mostly fly or fight in space it's a different story of course.

Draconi Redfir
2015-11-18, 01:02 PM
The human pilot never actually steps foot into the mecha itself, instead his mind and/or a copy of his mind is downloaded into the brain of the mecha, and since the mecha has the same basic body-shape as the human's own body, they don't need to learn how to move any new body parts or functions. Well, they might need to learn how to flip their wrist around to make it turn into a cannon but that's besides the point.


alternatively: The giant monsters the mecha are fighting require the intricate movements and dexterity of a humanoid shape in order to defeat that drones, planes, and tanks simply cannot recreate, you need to have a hand on one area, then a hand in a completely different area, and it's a whole big tangled mess. So really in order to fight this specific giant monster you need a giant human.

BRC
2015-11-18, 01:40 PM
Hmm... the idea of mechs being repurposed construction equipment seems cool - it also explains why they're militarized.

A fortress is most vulnerable when it's under construction. Mechs can build things pretty quickly due to their size and strength. When the enemy army comes trying to knock the place down, you want everyone to be able to defend the place... especially if it's against an enemy that doesn't take prisoners properly. Adding machineguns and anti-tank weaponry to a construction mech to assist in defense only makes sense.

... and then you start scaling the mechs up, improving the weaponry, and start using them to advance and build fortifications while

Ooh - you could even make their construction arms have smaller construction arms built into them, extending down to the size you need for building, with twenty-six layers per arm total, labeled alphabetically from largest - for building large-scale fortifications, to smallest, working on the nanoscale. We can call them "Lensman Integrated Telescoping Tactical and Logistics Enhanced Construction Armatures and Tool Systems"(LITTLECATS). LITTLECAT Z is equipped with the Versatile Orthographic Orientation Machine. (VOOM)
There could also be a treaty-based explanation.

Mechs are not designed for the battlefield, because they're a stupid idea on the battlefield. Imagine some sort of DMZ, where two sides agree they can't station any armed fighting vehicles.

But, Mechs are not fighting vehicles. They're construction equipment. You can send unarmed mechs into the DMZ to help with rebuilding and construction efforts. When hostilities break out, it's a lot easier to jury-rig armor any weapons onto the mechs than it would be to build tanks from scratch.

JoeJ
2015-11-18, 01:51 PM
In story terms, giant robots can be seen as metaphors for heroic armored warriors; knights, samurai, etc. So maybe the unconscious projection of human hopes, fears, and dreams infuses them with greater power than the engineering alone can account for. Perhaps tanks are superior according to every rational measure, and scientists simply can't explain why mechs consistently beat them on the battlefield.

Susano-wo
2015-11-18, 09:58 PM
But that doesn't say a lot about their combat role. A tank with an autoloader, a tomtom and a multitasking genius in its single seat would still be a tank. It has an advantage over other tanks: it needs less payed and trained crew, which are lost when the vehicle explodes. That has all sorts of impacts on say the amount of vehicles you can field, but it doesn't give the thing wings and a jet engine.

Yeah, this. Its irrelevant (to the what should we compare them to argument) how many people are in them or what the control schemes are like. What matters is how they are used in battle.

Mutazoia
2015-11-19, 04:52 AM
Well...are we trying to justify giant mecha in a fantasy setting?

If so, then they are giant golems, but because of their size, they are only capable of very limited autonomous action and thus need to be directly controlled for anything more complex than "go there." To do this, the golem has a hollow cavity in the chest (or head, depending on how you like your mecha) that has the control device fixed inside. The "Pilot" sits (or stands) in this space and controls the golem. He can see out via anything as complex as a scrying device, or simply the old (from 1st/2nd ed) glassee spell (that makes any surface into a one-way mirror).

If you want to get really fancy you can merge the Helms from Spelljammer with the giant golems, and have your pilot sit in the helm and take direct control of the golem mentally, seeing through it's eyes, using it's limbs as his own, etc.

Either way, any weaponry would "simply" be enlarged versions of standard magic items. A colossal flaming sword, or a "cannon" that was a giant wand of meteors, etc.

Instead of techs to repair and reload the mech, you would have a team of mages repairing the golem and recharging the "wand" cannons.