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View Full Version : Optimization Help with Evaluating/Improving a Caster Build in (3.5)



Doctor Despair
2015-11-11, 05:22 PM
So the more I have researched magic, the more I've realized there there is no real ceiling for the power a mage can get in 3.5. This was a horrible moment for me because, as someone who enjoys optimizing, I had to come to grips with the painful realization that, since I didn't want to derail the campaign for the DM or fellow PCs, I would have to... intentionally limit my power. With that in mind, I struggled to consider what seemed like a good balance for this epic campaign. So far, I know the campaign may involve combat with deities (potentially spec'd close to what may be found in Deities and Demigods?), that one fighter/knight character can do ~1300 damage over 16 or so attacks, and that there will be a paladin who will likely be someone optimized. I'm generally unfamiliar (but gaining familiarity!) with mage PrCs and spells, but I threw this together after a bit of thought:


Raw Character Info
Race: Human, then polymorph-any-object into a Domovoi/Raptoran hybrid (small creature)

A
Wizard 1: Extend spell, spell focus: evil
Wizard 2:
Wizard 3: Forge Magic Ring
Wizard 4:
Wizard 5: Maximize spell
Mindbender 6: Invisible Spell, Iron Will from Otyugh hole

B
Cleric 7:
Dweomerkeeper 8:
Ur Priest 7 (retrained from cleric upon release from prison):
Ur Priest 9: Leadership
Incantatrix 10: Guided Spell
Incantatrix 11:
Incantatrix 12: Divine Metamagic, Retrain Forge Magic Ring into Extraordinary Concentration

C
Mystic Theurge 13: Retrain S.Focus into Persistent Spell
Mystic Theurge 14:
Mystic Theurge 15: Spell Mastery
Mystic Theurge 16:
Mystic Theurge 17:
Mystic Theurge 18: Uncanny Forethought
Mystic Theurge 19:
Mystic Theurge 20:



Character Fluff
For story purposes, he would be a character who started chaotic neutral in A but slowly slid to chaotic evil as he gained a lust for power, only to be imprisoned by clerics for a time for transgressions against the church.

This imprisonment led to him progressing into professional god-hating in B, developing an anti-religion pose as a lawful evil character, but as time passed, this developed into more of a philosophy about magic in general: the world was far too chaotic and was worse off with all these different factions vying for power using magic and would be better off if it were left in the hands of those who knew better (ie, him). Naturally he would have a grudging respect, if not envy for deities and mages stronger than him.

This sparks his development in C as a lawful neutral character, utilizing divine and mystical energies to progress him toward his ultimate goal of removing magic (or at least the common person's access to it) from the world, either via god-hood or epic magics, whichever can provide it first.

Does this progression seem like it would be appropriate for an epic mage?


Efficiency

More importantly, would this class progression make for a character that would compare to the hyper-strong ogre-knight while not just overshadowing the party? Is it adequate for an epic campaign, and for one involving deities and the like? I know I've lost out on two caster levels with the dip in Ur Priest. How critical is that?

In terms of raw defense, I was considering using hide life, astral projection, temporal stasis and, mind blank, the usual catch-alls for a paranoid mage. In addition, I was planning to have an artificer cohort make an iron golem (with a person-sized cavity in the chest) and the mage could cast Awaken Construct during creation (the only time I think it is appropriate) to make the golem sentient and friendly before getting it to lower its infinite spell resistance for a programmed amnesia to make it totally, fanatically loyal -- or whatever is required to make it cooperative to what follows. After it is loyal, I could have it lower its spell resistance for an extended magic jar and then, as the golem, lower my own resistance for an additional hide life focused on the golem's heart as a phylactery -- which would be placed in a bag of holding inside the chest cavity with the golem-inhabited body. Then, at level 21, I would have access to the epic seeds for epic invisibility spells which can protect from any class of divination with a caster check that can be pumped in proportion to my spellcraft modifier, especially with wizardly shenanigans, which I could use to hide the astral cord and to hide the golem and body and whatever else is necessary to secret away. Are there any other elements I could add to this defense without cheesing the DM too hard?

In terms of raw offense... I'm not sure where to go! It seems like anything that isn't a caster would be subject to a dimensional anchor/force cage combo, and anything that IS a caster would be subject to the old force cage/antimagic field combination (barring invoke magic, of course). For mortal creatures, it's all a matter of getting a variety of saves, attacks, or spells without saves or attacks, but I'm not sure what an appropriate measure for deific characters is. If in this campaign, as the DM suggests, we will be fighting creatures of god-like proportions, should I be pumping damage? Or what wizardly tricks are most appropriate? I feel like I should have some sort of answer with level 9 divine and arcane spells. Or are the epic spells my real out here?

Endarire
2015-11-11, 05:28 PM
A typical Wizard/Ur Theurge build takes 1 level of Mindbender at level 6 for the Fortitude save bonus, a prereq for Ur Priest.

If someone's power level is a concern in a campaign, talk with your GM. If you are the GM, talk with your players. Determine what's OK in this campaign.

Doctor Despair
2015-11-11, 05:34 PM
A typical Wizard/Ur Theurge build takes 1 level of Mindbender at level 6 for the Fortitude save bonus, a prereq for Ur Priest.

If someone's power level is a concern in a campaign, talk with your GM. If you are the GM, talk with your players. Determine what's OK in this campaign.

Thanks for the tip about Mindbender! I was planning to waste a wish on that save.

And I spoke the GM; he's more familiar with pathfinder, and agrees that mages are absolutely broken in 3.5, but hasn't posed any sort of limits or suggestions. This is more of a personal concern for balance. *I* don't want to break the campaign as a player, because if I was GMing, I know I wouldn't want a player to do that.

AvatarVecna
2015-11-11, 05:47 PM
Yes, mages have no true upper limit. That being said, there's a difference between low PO (efficient blasters like the Mailman), high PO (like non-blaster Incantatrices or Planar Shepherds using the non-broken planes), and total TO (like Vermin Lord hiveminds and Planar Shepherds who took the Far Realm as their natural plane and get NI rounds per round). Even Low-PO can be fun to play, though...and it'll be much more balanced in terms of "not breaking the campaign in two through it's mere existence". My suggestion for not breaking the game is to use stuff that's effective but doesn't seem directly OP, like buffing; casting haste on your friends makes them better, and that makes you look helpful without making you look OP or broken. BFC is helpful for this as well, and even doing something like specializing at blasting means you're meaningfully contributing without overshadowing your allies at every turn.