Core Only Build Rogue/XX

[Reynard Loxley]

Hello,

I'm in a 3.5 campaign that only allows the use of the PHB for character creation (which means no prestige classes). I'm looking for some opinions on ability points and potential multiclass options.

Character details: Playing as a gnome, level 3 start. First level must be rogue. 32 point buy system for abilities. I have one feat to use.

I'm looking at dipping into bard for the extra support to the party. There are no penalties to xp for multiclassing. My role in the party will be forward scout/goblin bait/support.

We level up EXTREMELY slow so level advancement will be long and arduous.

Any suggestions, help or guidance you can offer would be great.

[Flickerdart]

You have one feat to use because you used your other feat, or because your DM doesn't let you have more than one? What is your other feat? What level do you get the feat that's available?

Bard doesn't provide that much support to the party unless you stick to it all the way. Honestly, I recommend just taking 3 rogue levels for now. 2d6 Sneak Attack is nice.

If you must multiclass, take a full BAB class (so you don't compromise your fighting ability). Ranger is a solid choice because it gets you better weapon proficiency, Track, FE: Goblinoids, shield proficiency, a better hit die, and much of the same skills you would get from rogue. You also get the ability to use wands of ranger spells without needing UMD, and there are handy ones on that list for a scout/support guy.

[Pluto!]

With these parameters, I'd probably just go straight Rogue, maybe dipping 2 levels Ranger and/or 1 level Barbarian, just to open wilderness skill caps. Both of those classes are pretty loaded in their first level or two.

I don't like multiclassing Bard in Core. If I see something like Rogue 9/Bard 1, I just can't see what good those 2 cantrips or that +1 Inspire courage is doing. And if I see something like Bard 9/Rogue 1, I have to wonder if Trapfinding and a sneak attack die are really worth more than Shadow Conjuration. Both of those doubly so without fractional BA or saves.

[Aleolus]

I agree. If you're looking for a support character type then do rogue 2 ranger 1. In all honesty, before Complete Adventurer came out with the Scout, the ranger really was the non-urban rogue

[nedz]

I'd go Rogue 1 / Bard X — if you intend to play a Bard — but only because you have to take one level of Rogue.

Bards spellcasting advances quite slowly so the fewer levels of anything else the better.

If you are only looking for a dip then Cleric, Wizard or possibly Sorcerer are better choices.

A two level Ranger dip might be worth looking at: Full BAB, skill points, TWF.

One or two levels of Fighter for one or two feats is also an option, though there aren't that many worthwhile feats in core.

In core, with no PrCs, you might be better sticking with straight Rogue.

[Troacctid]

Let's break down some of your options then.


Bard: Not really spectacular as a dip, since the class isn't very frontloaded, aside from having two good saves. Inspire Courage and Fascinate are both useful for what you're trying to do, but only one daily use of bardic music is going to make them somewhat lackluster, and if you're just dipping, they won't scale up with your level. Also, you don't even have 1st level spells at level 1, which is meh. Bard is a great class for what you want to do--however, it really wants to be your primary class, not a dip. As such, if you go Bard, I'd lean strongly towards Rogue 1/Bard X rather than Rogue X/Bard 1. (Rogue 1/Bard X is probably worse than straight Bard, but also probably better than straight Rogue.)
Cleric: Cleric is always a solid dip. It offers the best access to spell trigger items, since you get the full Cleric list and can also snag the Wizard list via the Magic domain. If you want Inspire Courage, Clerics get that too, although they call it Bless. While you lose some skill points, this should be made up for by the points you saved in Use Magic Device, which you can basically ignore now.
Druid: Even a 1st level animal companion is useful. A riding dog can serve as a mount, improving your mobility, and it can trip and flank in combat to make your enemies more susceptible to your team's attacks. Faerie Fire is a good support spell.
Ranger: A good choice if you want to boost your Fortitude, gain proficiencies, and add some tracking, without sacrificing skills. Also, if you know you're going to be fighting goblins specifically, favored enemy could do some work. If you take two levels, you can pick up Rapid Shot, which works well with sneak attacks.
Sorcerer or Wizard: Gets you access to the best spell list for wand use. Gets you a familiar, which shares all your skill ranks and is very helpful for scouting. Gets you a small handful of 1st level spells known, which can offer a bit of utility. All in all, not too bad for a dip. On the downside, you do lose some skill points.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, I'd go Rogue/Ranger, taking, oh, 1 or 3 Rogue levels. Get a bit of sneak attack and trapfinding on top of probably the best core-only martial. You can keep Search maxed out, after all, and disarm through clever tactics when necessary. Wield a glaive and armor spikes or spiked gauntlets and put feats towards tripping, but pick the archery combat style. You'll wind up with good skills, solid melee and ranged preformance, and even a few spells to round things off.

[Troacctid]

Wield a glaive and armor spikes or spiked gauntlets and put feats towards tripping, but pick the archery combat style. You'll wind up with good skills, solid melee and ranged preformance, and even a few spells to round things off.

Tripping seems suspect on a small-size race with a Strength penalty.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tripping seems suspect on a small-size race with a Strength penalty.
Missed that, sorry.

[edwin1993]

if you're allowed subrraces look into whisper gnome races of stone get bonus to dex and con negative to str and charisma and a ton of bonuses on skills, and 30ft speed u could take dodge at first level titan fighting at 3rd level or weapon finesse

[Reynard Loxley]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions and insight.

Has definitely made me rethink my choices and ability spread as well.

[LudicSavant]

Hello,

I'm in a 3.5 campaign that only allows the use of the PHB for character creation (which means no prestige classes). I'm looking for some opinions on ability points and potential multiclass options.

Character details: Playing as a gnome, level 3 start. First level must be rogue. 32 point buy system for abilities. I have one feat to use.

I'm looking at dipping into bard for the extra support to the party. There are no penalties to xp for multiclassing. My role in the party will be forward scout/goblin bait/support.

We level up EXTREMELY slow so level advancement will be long and arduous.

Any suggestions, help or guidance you can offer would be great.

Use UMD. Get wands and scrolls. Throw alchemical flasks (you can sneak attack with them and they're touch attacks and ignore DR). Get masterwork tools of every skill you use.

Be a support character by using skills, wands, and scrolls. Grease will lock down many enemies and make them sneak-attackable if they can actually make their balance checks (since balancing makes you flat footed). Cure Light Wounds wands are great for getting your party to full hp after every encounter. Entangling Roots is good too. Lots of other good choices.

[Troacctid]

Grease will lock down many enemies and make them sneak-attackable if they can actually make their balance checks (since balancing makes you flat footed).

Grease is not a good choice for a wand, since it is very bad at the minimum CL. Faerie Fire is a better sneak attack enabler.

[LudicSavant]

Grease is not a good choice for a wand, since it is very bad at the minimum CL.

It's a no-save way to make something flat-footed.

In order for anything in the area to move that turn, they need to make a reflex save and a DC 10 balance check. If they fail the DC 10 balance check by less than 5 they have to roll a second Reflex save or fall, and if they fail it by 5 or more they just fall. Even if they make the DC 10 balance check, unless they have at least 5 ranks in Balance they will move half speed and be flat-footed, opening them up for sneak attacks on your following action.

An Ogre, to use an average CR3 enemy as an example, is going to fall or be rendered immobile ~75% of the time. If it stays upright, it moves slow and is flat-footed. Then you just bop 'em for some 20-30 damage, which hits on a 2+.

So, hey, that's -1 Ogre right there.


Faerie Fire is a better sneak attack enabler.

That simply isn't a valid comparison. Faerie Fire is indeed great, but it fulfills a different role. Faerie Fire does not make an enemy flat-footed or deny their dex bonus to AC. It's useful for getting rid of immunities to sneak attack, it doesn't actually allow you to sneak attack on its own.

[Pluto!]

These forums give Grease wands far better reviews than I expect.

It seems like a turn spent to have a chance, if two die rolls go your way, of impeding one opponent's one turn. That doesn't seem like good action economy unless you have the opponent significantly outnumbered.

[LudicSavant]

These forums give Grease wands far better reviews than I expect.

It seems like a turn spent to have a chance, if two die rolls go your way, of impeding one opponent's one turn. That doesn't seem like good action economy unless you have the opponent significantly outnumbered.

You've got it wrong. The important thing to understand is that you do not need to have two rolls go your way, or even have any rolls go your way (that's just gravy). If that were the case, the spell would be horrible, instead of one of the first things suggested in every CharOp guide.

If only one roll goes your way, the opponent is completely immobile, and possibly prone. If neither roll goes your way, they will have impeded movement and be flat-footed, enabling you to sneak attack. You win no matter what happens unless they have more than 5 ranks in Balance.

If you are standing 30 feet away, the Ogre has a snowball's chance in hell of getting to you and attacking. And then, even if he succeeded at his balance check and reflex save, he'll still be flat-footed and you can sneak attack him, and he'll die.

Entangle is superior for locking down enemy movement, but won't make an enemy flat-footed.

If it wasn't core only, I'd point at things like Nerveskitter and Swift Invisibility too.

[Pluto!]

What I mean is that the plucky ECL 3 Rogue pulls out his wand of CL 2 Grease and tries to activate it.
With 12-13 Cha and full ranks, his modifier is +7, succeeding 40% of the time.
The Ogre makes a DC 11 Reflex save, failing 50% of the time.
If successful, he makes a DC 10 balance check to move, failing 45% of the time. Or he throws something at you, but let's not talk about that.

If these things go wrong, he steps out of the grease and whacks you with his club (given reach only 25ft movement is required for him to move 30 ft).

So to break down the possibilities, nothing useful happens 69% of the time and he falls down 31% of the time. Granted, if he's engaged in melee with another party member, the wand gets better because now he's falling 20% of the time (advantageous to the Fighter) with an additional balance check after each time he's hit, and successfully balancing 20% of the time, which sets up your next round's SA. But in terms of action economy, it seems like a losing deal.

[LudicSavant]

his modifier is +7

Well, there's your build problem, right there. It should be higher than that. Why are you only adding Cha and ranks? :smallconfused:



If these things go wrong, he steps out of the grease and whacks you with his club (given reach only 25ft movement is required for him to move 30 ft).

Half of 30 is 15. If he makes his save and his balance check, he gets 15 feet of movement, not 25.

[Dread_Head]

Well, there's your build problem, right there. It should be higher than that. Why are you only adding Cha and ranks? :smallconfused:

Half of 30 is 15. If he makes his save and his balance check, he gets 15 feet of movement, not 25.

In a core only game what UMD boosters are there available at 3rd level? MW tool if your GM agrees to it, same with competence item? Even then this only gives another +5ish which still leaves a pretty big chance of failure. The UMD boosting feats are a pretty terrible return when you can't retrain at higher levels and they cut into the feats you are spending to be decent at throwing (TWFing / Rapidshot).

Your speed is only reduced for the squares you are balancing for, not your whole movement. Which would be one square of reduced movement (giving 25ft movement) or guess maybe two squares (giving 20ft movement).

Grease is good when a wizard is casting it with good CL as one of their several spells per day. A low CL out of a wand with a chance of failure cuts its usefulness drastically. Plus you waste one turn casting the spell to set you up for sneak attack next turn at which point they will most likely have moved off the grease.

Flask rogue is good, but it requires something else: either a wizard giving you a helping hand, spells like Swift Invisibility or Distract Assailant, or higher levels and a ring of blinking or similar. Edit: Or it's good as a back up option, or something you use on round 1 when they re flat footed from not acting. But as your main tactic at this level it is expensive and has far too high a chance of failure.

[LudicSavant]

In a core only game what UMD boosters are there available at 3rd level? MW tool if your GM agrees to it, same with competence item? Even then this only gives another +5ish which still leaves a pretty big chance of failure. The UMD boosting feats are a pretty terrible return when you can't retrain at higher levels and they cut into the feats you are spending to be decent at throwing (TWFing / Rapidshot).

Lots, actually.

Masterwork tool is an obvious one. So are the 3 different sources of +2s in the UMD skill description (don't forget the bonus for having activated an item before). Also, I would presume you would have a skill lineup like, I don't know, 16 dex, 14 cha, 14 int, 10 wis, 10 str, 14 con if you had 32 PB as the OP said, so that's +2 from Cha, not +1.

So for example, if you had +2 Cha, +6 ranks, +2 synergy (for scrols), +2 masterwork tool, +2 for having used it before (remember, you can have multiple spells scribed on the same scroll), that's +14 UMD, which is a decent baseline. You can of course go further. With 5 ranks in Spellcraft too (such as if the OP dipped bard or one of the other classes people were suggesting) that would be +16 UMD. If you got Skill Focus (UMD) it would be +19 UMD. If the DM allows you to have a custom +3 UMD item, that's +22 UMD, but I've never needed one of those.



Your speed is only reduced for the squares you are balancing for, not your whole movement. Which would be one square of reduced movement (giving 25ft movement) or guess maybe two squares (giving 20ft movement).

The Rules Compendium says that you use up a move action to move up to half your speed. The rules also say that you're balancing for one round. I don't see where it says that the rules for Balance are the same as the rules for Difficult Terrain.


A successful Balance check lets you use a move action to move up to half your speed



Flask rogue is good, but it requires something else: either a wizard giving you a helping hand, spells like Swift Invisibility or Distract Assailant, or higher levels and a ring of blinking or similar. Edit: Or it's good as a back up option, or something you use on round 1 when they re flat footed from not acting. But as your main tactic at this level it is expensive and has far too high a chance of failure.

So what would be your plan A?

[Telonius]

Core only, scout, needs to be sturdy... You might want to try a modified Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)). Your progression will be a little slower than the example build because of the level of Rogue and the fact that you're a Gnome and not a human. Tripping will be harder because of the size difference, but there are a few ways to help on that. (Mainly Enlarge Person).

[Flickerdart]

Core only, scout, needs to be sturdy... You might want to try a modified Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)). Your progression will be a little slower than the example build because of the level of Rogue and the fact that you're a Gnome and not a human. Tripping will be harder because of the size difference, but there are a few ways to help on that. (Mainly Enlarge Person).
Horizon Tripper is out because it's not core only but PHB only.

[Telonius]

Wow - missed that bit in the OP. No prestige at all, huh? Well, some of the basics (Barbarian for movement, then into Ranger) could still apply.

[Dread_Head]

Lots, actually.

Masterwork tool is an obvious one. So are the 3 different sources of +2s in the UMD skill description (don't forget the bonus for having activated an item before). Also, I would presume you would have a skill lineup like, I don't know, 16 dex, 14 cha, 14 int, 10 wis, 10 str, 14 con if you had 32 PB as the OP said, so that's +2 from Cha, not +1.

So for example, if you had +2 Cha, +6 ranks, +2 synergy (for scrols), +2 masterwork tool, +2 for having used it before (remember, you can have multiple spells scribed on the same scroll), that's +14 UMD, which is a decent baseline. You can of course go further. With 5 ranks in Spellcraft too (such as if the OP dipped bard or one of the other classes people were suggesting) that would be +16 UMD. If you got Skill Focus (UMD) it would be +19 UMD. If the DM allows you to have a custom +3 UMD item, that's +22 UMD, but I've never needed one of those.


The +2 bonus for having used it before only applies to activating blindly. The synergy bonuses only apply for activating scrolls, not wands. You could go that route but it becomes even more expensive and the DC's are a little tougher due to including CL. But it is certainly possible in core as you suggest to succeed most of the time on UMD checks from 3rd level.


The Rules Compendium says that you use up a move action to move up to half your speed. The rules also say that you're balancing for one round. I don't see where it says that the rules for Balance are the same as the rules for Difficult Terrain.

I didn't know that, I was just assuming that rules for slowed movement due to obstructions would all work the same. My bad for assuming transparency in the rules.


So what would be your plan A?

In a core only game where you want to get sneak attacks off the easiest method is by far flanking so would go with TWFing finesser. You can start a combat off if you win initiative with a barrage of flasks. Then move round (tumbling if necessary) to flank with the fighter. As you level up switch towards the UMD and flask throwing strategy when you can afford a ring of blinking and/or consumable items.

[Leon]

Im partial to Start with two levels of Ranger for its nice set of bonuses and then fill out rogue.

[LudicSavant]

The synergy bonuses only apply for activating scrolls, not wands. I had just said that myself. :smallconfused:


I didn't know that, I was just assuming that rules for slowed movement due to obstructions would all work the same.

They do not. There are a handful of different categories that work differently. They can also explicitly stack with each other to make movement really difficult.


In a core only game where you want to get sneak attacks off the easiest method is by far flanking so would go with TWFing finesser. You can start a combat off if you win initiative with a barrage of flasks. Then move round (tumbling if necessary) to flank with the fighter. As you level up switch towards the UMD and flask throwing strategy when you can afford a ring of blinking and/or consumable items.

So, if I understand correctly, your improved plan is to throw flasks and use UMD, but at a much later level than me (Ring of Blinking needs 27,000gp!) in a game where the OP says that there will be little advancement, and in the meantime use only one feat to get Weapon Finesse and TWF, and consider waiting for the BSF to get into position (if he even can), wading into melee, and then getting a full attack on the next turn with a -2 to hit to be the easiest method of getting sneak attacks against, I don't know, Large Monstrous Scorpions or an Evil Necromancer with a coupla orc skeletons?

[Dread_Head]

I had just said that myself. :smallconfused:

But as the discussion had mainly focused around using wands until that point I though it worth pointing out, especially because scrolls are more expensive and thus even less ideal to base a strategy around.


So, if I understand correctly, your improved plan is to throw flasks and use UMD, but at a much later level than me (Ring of Blinking needs 27,000gp!) in a game where the OP says that there will be little advancement, and in the meantime use only one feat to get Weapon Finesse and TWF, and consider waiting for the BSF to get into position (if he even can), wading into melee, and then getting a full attack on the next turn with a -2 and -4 to hit to be the easiest method of getting sneak attacks against, I don't know, Large Monstrous Scorpions or an Evil Necromancer?

Okay, I guess.

I'm suggesting that UMD / flask rogue is only effective at higher levels and thus isn't the best combat strategy for this player. At level 10-11 when you can afford the ring and have been able to auto succeed UMD for a few levels this strategy is great, but in a game at level 3 the strategy is ineffective and expensive (blowing maybe 100gp a combat means you won't have any other level appropriate gear). A strategy which has at best a 10% chance of failing outright (if you somehow get a UMD check of 17 (for wands or 18 for minimum CL scrolls)) and takes one round to set up (giving them ample opportunity to simply move and no longer be vulnerable to sneak attacks) can't be described as optimal.

I missed the one feat to use bit, my bad, was assuming a standard level 3's two feats. In that case just go either weapon finesse or TWF depending on ability scores. Or go Rogue 1 / Ranger 2 and grab both. But which one feat would your build grab? Skill Focus (UMD)? Or TWFing to get two attacks a turn? Or Quick Draw to actually be able to throw multiple flasks a turn?


and then getting a full attack on the next turn As opposed to your strategy which spends one turn casting grease and then getting a full attack on the next turn ... This seems a strange point to emphasise.

[Troacctid]

The Rules Compendium says that you use up a move action to move up to half your speed. The rules also say that you're balancing for one round. I don't see where it says that the rules for Balance are the same as the rules for Difficult Terrain.

The Grease spell more specifically states that you move at half speed when moving within or through the greased area.

[LudicSavant]

But as the discussion had mainly focused around using wands until that point

No, it didn't.


Use UMD. Get wands and scrolls.

You arbitrarily decided to focus on wands just as you arbitrarily decided that UMD didn't have boosters in core, Balance used Difficult Terrain rules, and that the OP didn't say that they had only one feat, and that flanking+penalized melee attacks without any way of pouncing or otherwise effectively boosting movement are somehow the easiest way of sneak attacking successfully. :smallconfused:


As opposed to your strategy which spends one turn casting grease and then getting a full attack on the next turn ... This seems a strange point to emphasise.

That's not a fair comparison at all.

My strategy is to optimize low level UMD to have a broad toolbox which can deal with a wide variety of situations. One of the many things in that broad toolbox is to use Grease in order to make it incredibly difficult for certain kinds of dangerous melee enemies to approach the party. Then, on the next turn, you can fire away at them from range, and hit easily because it's a touch attack on a CCed foe. Or, of course, your allies can do it on the same turn. But if it comes down to it (what with you being a forward scout and all, as the OP requested), you don't need their help.

Also, in my example I didn't even use all of my actions. You still had a move action. You could totally walk backwards after casting the spell.

At no point are you spending multiple turns in melee with a Large Monstrous Scorpion (or, in the case of an encounter that would be a challenge for the whole party instead of just you alone, a Huge Monstrous Scorpion). At no point are you waiting around for allies to flank.

Your strategy appears to be to drop that entire UMD toolbox until later levels, wait for a BSF to go through all of the work of getting into a flanking position (by no means something they are guaranteed to be able to do if Team Monster is using even moderately effective tactics), for however many rounds that takes, then wade into melee with something that can kill you, then use attacks with a low chance to hit when you expect enemies to have 16-25 AC (based on the "optimization by the numbers" charts), effective battlefield control capabilities, sometimes DR, and quite possibly the ability to swiftly disable you or the BSF in melee (such as with Improved Grab).

It just makes me feel like you're used to playing in easier campaigns that I'm used to. In games I've played where the DM is not coddling the party, if your BSF walks straight up to a Huge Monstrous Scorpion, he has to be careful of AoOs. If he does not get AoOed, he will immediately get attacked with 2 claw attacks (with Improved Grab/Constrict/+21 Grapple) and a deadly poisonous sting. This will often cause him to be grappled, and sometimes cause him to be unconscious or dead. If he's still around standing in position for you to move in, you then have to move around to the other side of the Monstrous Scorpion. Then it'll attack you because you're not encased in full plate, and there's a pretty good chance that it will kill or grapple you. If you're still up at the end of the turn, you get to make 2 attacks against its 20 AC.

So, let's pretend you had Weapon Finesse and Two Weapon Fighting, and say you have +3 Dex, +2 BAB, +1 from two masterwork weapons, +2 flanking, +1 size, -2 from TWF. That's +7 to hit. Your chance of hitting with both attacks is 16%. Your chance of hitting with one attack is 64%. Divide those chances by the chance of successfully setting up a flank, the chance of surviving in melee, etc etc. I'm sure you could find more bonuses from other sources, but I'd like to know what those are. If you got your two attacks up to +9, say, you'd still only have a 25% chance of hitting with both, and a 75% chance of hitting with one. Your damage annoys it. You are standing in melee with something that can kill you right now.

By contrast, if I successfully UMD Grease or Entangle at it, I have single-handedly have stopped the melee monstrosity from engaging the party. And if I'm throwing flasks at it, I hit on a 2. If I fail to successfully UMD Grease or Entangle at it, I still can move backwards, and let my teammates attempt to control it. The last thing I want to do is get in melee range of that thing. I wouldn't want to get in melee range of that thing unless I was very tanky or I was confident I was going to kill it with one shot.

[Beheld]

Grappling Consequences
While you’re grappling, your ability to attack others and defend yourself is limited.

No Threatened Squares
You don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus
You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)

In many ways, the scorpion grappling the fighter is the best possible thing for the team with a rogue.

[LudicSavant]

In many ways, the scorpion grappling the fighter is the best possible thing for the team with a rogue.

I feel like this is the opinion of someone who has not, in fact, fought a Huge Monstrous Scorpion that is making proper use of its powers. So, there are actually a few possibilities.

1) It grapples the fighter and DOES NOT opt to use its improved grab ability to not count as grappled. It does this if it thinks it's gonna hit all, or at least enough, of its attacks. If all of those attacks hit, it's dishing out somewhere in the range of 4d8+2d4+27 (average 50) damage, plus a DC 18 Fortitude save which, if failed, deals 1d6 Constitution damage. So, in other words, you are risking your fighter outright dying for the sake of this plan. If the Fighter dies, it tosses the corpse away, and cannot be sneak attacked.

1a) It grapples the fighter and loses its dex bonus and all that, and the fighter lives. You move in to melee it, and get one sneak attack (because you don't have pounce or anything), which with a +7 to hit means you have a 40% chance of hitting. If you hit, your damage annoys it, because it has 75 hp.

1aa) It attacks the Fighter again, and if he wasn't dead before there's a good chance he is now.
1ab) Your damage annoyed it, so it turns and attacks you with a full attack routine. We have already established how much this attack routine hurts.
1ac) It runs away, still holding the fighter, because it can. You annoy it with an AoO attempt, and it's 100-200 feet away, still squeezing the life out of your Fighter. Next round it runs further away. Good luck ever seeing your Fighter again, or even finding the corpse to loot it.

1b) It grapples the fighter and loses its dex bonus and all that, and the fighter lives. You move in, but you don't have enough movement to get into a flanking position and attack. So you just run up to it and stand there waiting for its next turn, in melee range of the creature. See 1aa, 1ab, and 1ac.

2) It opts to use its Improved Grab ability to not count as grappled. The Fighter is still at large risk from the claw attacks and sting damage/poison, and still has a nonzero chance of being grappled for free (because it still has a +1 Grapple check, possibly twice). If the fighter is grappled this way, the Rogue can't sneak attack. Also, you might be AoOed if you don't make your Tumble check, and that could turn out very badly for you, especially since the Monstrous Scorpion can grapple multiple people at once.

3) It grabs the fighter with an AoO, then runs away using its 50 foot base move speed, to devour your Fighter in peace. Remember, since it has Improved Grab, it can move freely while grappling your Fighter. The rules even specifically suggest that monsters with this ability will carry grappled foes away.


The Grease spell more specifically states that you move at half speed when moving within or through the greased area.

Let's humor this arbitrary houserule for a second, because even if it were accurate the calculation would still be wrong. Larger creatures require more movement to get clear of a space. To make the case as obvious as possible, let's imagine a Colossal (6x6 squares) creature on one side of a Grease spell. How many spaces of movement does it take for him to move entirely through 2 squares of Grease, and be completely on the other side of it such that no part of him is in the Grease area?

The same issue happens on a smaller scale for the Ogre if you position your Grease properly. So no matter which way you rewrite the rules, the ogre still can't reach the Rogue.

[Beheld]

I feel like this is the opinion of someone who has not, in fact, fought a Huge Monstrous Scorpion that is making proper use of its powers. So, there are actually a few possibilities.

I feel like you are very confused.


1) It grapples the fighter and DOES NOT opt to use its improved grab ability to not count as grappled. It does this if it thinks it's gonna hit all, or at least enough, of its attacks. If all of those attacks hit, it's dishing out somewhere in the range of 4d8+2d4+27 (average 50) damage, plus a DC 18 Fortitude save which, if failed, deals 1d6 Constitution damage. So, in other words, you are risking your fighter outright dying for the sake of this plan. If the Fighter dies, it tosses the corpse away, and cannot be sneak attacked.

If your level 7 fighter gets hit by all three of +11/+11/+6 and then dies from 50 damage and failing a DC 18 fort save then your level 7 fighter is like a level 3 fighter, and no one cares. A +1 Full plate with +1 Dex alone gives a 50% chance to miss on each claw and the sting is even worse. A level 7 fighter has average 43HP before any con at all. And a fort save of +5 before con or any save boosters. To say nothing of the fact that fighter 7s don't exist, and the fighter instead likely multiclassed with other fightery classes, giving him a much higher fort save and probably more HP.

So what you are actually looking at instead is something like, fighter gets hit by one claw, the sting probably misses, and if the sting hits, it doesn't do much, but even if all three attacks hit the fighter lives just fine. All this is assuming the Scorpion gets a full attack, which is not guaranteed, since the scorpion, according to the MM usually charges to attack when it sees an enemy. Also, you are pretty clearly assuming that the Scorpion gets constrict damage twice, which is never ever ever ever ever going to happen to a fighter. Because once it starts a regular grapple, it is going to already be grappling, and thus be incapable of initiating a second grapple on the same target. As indicated later, and also by even the most rudimentary level of math, the fighter is never going to be grappled by a single claw.


1a) It grapples the fighter and loses its dex bonus and all that, and the fighter lives. You move in to melee it, and get one sneak attack (because you don't have pounce or anything), which with a +7 to hit means you have a 40% chance of hitting. If you hit, your damage annoys it, because it has 75 hp.

Or you throw flasks or shoot a bow for a full attack, because it is denied it's dex bonus to ac. So you get a full attack with SA without even being adjacent! And since the Scorpion is huge, you can even throw a flask such that it only hits the scorpion and doesn't even splash damage the fighter. At this point, depending on previous damage and your optimization level you might just kill the thing with your full attack.


1aa) It attacks the Fighter again, and if he wasn't dead before there's a good chance he is now.
1ab) Your damage annoyed it, so it turns and attacks you with a full attack routine. We have already established how much this attack routine hurts.
1ac) It runs away, still holding the fighter, because it can. You annoy it with an AoO attempt, and it's 100-200 feet away, still squeezing the life out of your Fighter. Next round it runs further away. Good luck ever seeing your Fighter again, or even finding the corpse to loot it.

b and c both assume the fighter is grappled in a claw, which is basically as close to impossible as can be. He can probably survive another round of attacks no problem.


1b) It grapples the fighter and loses its dex bonus and all that, and the fighter lives. You move in, but you don't have enough movement to get into a flanking position and attack. So you just run up to it and stand there waiting for its next turn, in melee range of the creature. See 1aa, 1ab, and 1ac.

Oh, you aren't flanking? WHO CARES? You still get SA, so even if you did decide to run into melee, or you were a pounce rogue, you would just do that and get SA.


2) It opts to use its Improved Grab ability to not count as grappled. The Fighter is still at large risk from the claw attacks and sting damage/poison, and still has a nonzero chance of being grappled for free (because it still has a +1 Grapple check, possibly twice). If the fighter is grappled this way, the Rogue can't sneak attack.

Do you only ever see Gnome Dex Fighters, because even those guys have the AC RNG so far off the end against the scorpion that they would never be grappled? A level 1 Fighter with 16 Str has a grapple mod of +4, and therefore has a 66% chance of beating the grapple check. A level 7 Fighter with 18 Strength, assuming some kind of +2 item by this point, has a grapple mod of +11, which means he wins the grapple check 89% of the time. Since attacks only have a 50% chance of even hitting if that, and he might have additional grapple bonuses, moral, higher str, enlarge person, ect., this basically means he will never ever be grappled by a claw.


3) It grabs the fighter with an AoO, then runs away using its 50 foot base move speed, to devour your Fighter in peace. Remember, since it has Improved Grab, it can move freely while grappling your Fighter. The rules even specifically suggest that monsters with this ability will carry grappled foes away.

Since it has Improved Grab, it can freely choose to lose the grapple check if it tries to grapple with just the claw.

[LudicSavant]

I feel like you are very confused.

Immediately starts going on about level 7 characters when my example used level 3 characters. Says that the other person in the discussion is confused. Okay then.


If your level 7 fighter Level 3 fighter.


Lots of stuff about level 7 fighters

:smallsigh:

[Beheld]

Says that the other person in the discussion is confused. Immediately starts going on about level 7 characters when my example used level 3 characters. Okay then.

Level 3 fighter.

So your theory is that the PCs will be facing a monster which is expected to have a 50% chance of Total Party Kill against a level 3 party, and that it will be violating the expressed tactics, and that it will be winning grapple checks where it rolls 1d20+1 against 1d20+7 or more because it secretly has a divine rank and only rolls 20s?

And this is a problem why? Monsters which according to CR are expected to have a 50% TPK rate are usually strong enough without having them violate their usual tactics. The fact that if it follows it's actual tactics, and the fighter being grappled is the best case scenario, because then, once again, the monster is denied dex to AC, so the rogue can output maximum damage.

[LudicSavant]

So your theory is that the PCs will be facing a monster which is expected to have a 50% chance of Total Party Kill against a level 3 party, and that it will be violating the expressed tactics, and that it will be winning grapple checks where it rolls 1d20+1 against 1d20+7 or more because it secretly has a divine rank and only rolls 20s? Always with the hyperbole. I said there is a chance, amongst many possibilities, that the scorpion will successfully grapple the Fighter as a side effect of its attack routine (since its grapple attempts don't require extra actions). The chance that it will successfully grapple once in two tries of 1d20+1 vs 1d20+7 is not negligible.


And this is a problem why? Monsters which according to CR are expected to have a 50% TPK rate are usually strong enough without having them violate their usual tactics. The fact that if it follows it's actual tactics, and the fighter being grappled is the best case scenario, because then, once again, the monster is denied dex to AC, so the rogue can output maximum damage.

Because if you want to see if a party is strong, you don't put them against a speed bump encounter that you can crush with NPC classes, you put them against a challenging encounter, such as a Same Game Test encounter. A same game test encounter for a level 3 Rogue is an EL3 encounter with no party to help them. A same game test encounter for a level 3 party with 4 characters is an EL7 encounter.

Also, I've had tons of campaigns where we take down CR7s or higher at level 3, using strategies such as the one I have suggested. And if my teams are taking down CR7s, it seems strange that you seem to think my options are anything other than strong.

[Beheld]

Because if you want to see if a party is strong, you don't put them against a speed bump encounter, you put them against a Same Game Test encounter.

A CR = party level is not a speed bump, it is a challenging encounter, specifically according to the rules, a word that you expressly used. Running a party through a Same Game Test is not worthless, but you have to know what you are actually doing. For a party to prove CR competent the party would have to "win" 50% of encounters. Whether or not getting through with zero deaths or with three deaths constitutes a "win" is an open question that the Same Game Test doesn't answer. Because the Same Game Test is for testing a single character against 50% TPK monsters because that single character will be on the right RNG for a character facing 4 CR = Challenging encounters. Whereas a Same Game Test for a party is likely to produce encounters completely off the RNG or that have "you must be this high to enter" bars such as power word stun, or long range attacks and fast flight before the party is capable of matching that.


Also, I've had tons of campaigns where we take down CR7s or higher at level 3. And if my teams are taking down CR7s,

I've also had lots of campaigns were I took down CR 7s with level 3 characters, none of them where PHB only. Off the top of my head, a level 3 PC could have an item familiar that casts grease for him with it's action and have an addition 1d6 SA on thrown sneak attacks, to say nothing of flaws and strongheart halfling giving all the feats that grant extra thrown attacks kicking in much earlier. Power creep is a great example of power creep and poor example of what the best way expect what a guy asking for optimization advice for a PHB only game is likely to face, or likely to be able to face.


it seems strange that you seem to think there's a problem with my team builds.

It seems strange that you seem to think I think there's a problem with your team's builds since I have never said anything about that at any point.

[LudicSavant]

I've also had lots of campaigns were I took down CR 7s with level 3 characters, none of them where PHB only.

That's good for you? Some of mine were.

[Beheld]

That's good for you? Some of mine were.

So you are super committed to ignoring every single actual issue with both your proposed claims and the actual usefulness of anything you say to the OP to focus on bragging about how great you are for being able to beat up monsters played like idiots or your ability to be lucky and flip heads multiple times in a row?

Let's go over it again:

1) The party will not be facing a CR 7 Huge Monstrous Scorpion, because that would be dumb, to give them a 50% chance of TPK.
2) If they did, the scorpion would charge them and get one attack.
3) That one attack would have basically no chance of grappling the fighter in a single claw, even a level 3 fighter. So if the scorpion grapples it will be denied dex to ac and unable to run away.
4) If it is denied dex, that is the best case scenario, because the party needs to kill that thing as soon as possible if they already failed the part of the encounter that is a puzzle monster, so the rogue getting to Full attack with SA is the best case scenario.

[LudicSavant]

So you are super committed to ignoring every single actual issue with both your proposed claims and the actual usefulness of anything you say to the OP to focus on bragging about how great you are for being able to beat up monsters played like idiots or your ability to be lucky and flip heads multiple times in a row?

Care to point out one actual issue with my strategy? Because so far you haven't pointed out a single one. You just said a lot of irrelevant stuff about level 7 fighters and insulted me.

Like, you talk about me being confused, but then you say "Wow, that thing you're saying is a bad idea is a bad idea! You should have thrown acid flasks at range instead!" Which... was exactly what I was saying. So I think you're the one who is confused, sir.


Or you throw flasks

This is precisely what I was suggesting the player should do instead. I really don't know what conversation you're reading where you think that my position is not to sneak attack from range. Or where you think I'm talking about level 7 fighters. Or where you think that I'm saying that a scorpion will always win its grapple check. None of those things have anything to do with anything I said. And frankly I don't appreciate the sarcastic hyperbole.

[Troacctid]

Let's humor this arbitrary houserule for a second, because even if it were accurate the calculation would still be wrong. Larger creatures require more movement to get clear of a space. To make the case as obvious as possible, let's imagine a Colossal (6x6 squares) creature on one side of a Grease spell. How many spaces of movement does it take for him to move entirely through 2 squares of Grease, and be completely on the other side of it such that no part of him is in the Grease area?

The same issue happens on a smaller scale for the Ogre if you position your Grease properly. So no matter which way you rewrite the rules, the ogre still can't reach the Rogue.

What are you talking about? Houserules? Arbitrary? It's literally in the text of the spell. "A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check." Exact words.

[LudicSavant]

What are you talking about? Houserules? Arbitrary? It's literally in the text of the spell. "A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check." Exact words.

By my interpretation, it's a houserule because it ignores the rules for what happens every time you make a Balance check. I do not see anything in the Grease description that says that you aren't making a Balance check, or that you ignore the usual effects of making one. And either way, it's irrelevant. Even if the rules worked the way you say they do, the ogre would still not have enough movement to reach the Rogue.

[Beheld]

Care to point out one actual issue with my strategy? Because so far you haven't pointed out a single one. You just said a lot of irrelevant stuff about level 7 fighters and insulted me.

Care to point out one actual time I said your strategy had any issues? Seriously. Do you understand the concept of names next to posts? Different names mean different people. I am in fact, not committed to defending whatever position you decided someone else took on this issue. The only thing I said was that it is good if the fighter is grappled, because it means the rogue gets SA. If you can't point to a single relevant problem with that statement, then I don't know why you are committed to arguing with me.

[LudicSavant]

Care to point out one actual time I said your strategy had any issues?

Uhm.


So you are super committed to ignoring every single actual issue with both your proposed claims and the actual usefulness of anything you say to the OP

You explicitly said there were issues with my proposed claims, and the usefulness of anything I say to the OP.

"hey OP, UMD and flasks are pretty cool, and you can make them work at low levels in core only, and they're good enough to win hard encounters" and "I think that wading into melee and flanking is actually pretty dangerous and difficult in many situations." So presumably you have a problem with any or all of those if you're saying that I am super committed to saying nothing useful to the OP.


Do you understand the concept of names next to posts? Different names mean different people.

The quoted text has the name "Beheld" next to it.

[Beheld]

You explicitly said there were issues with my proposed claims, and the usefulness of anything I say to the OP.

Pretty much my only claims were "hey OP, UMD and flasks are pretty cool, and you can make them work at low levels in core only, and they're good enough to win hard encounters" and "I think that wading into melee and flanking is actually pretty dangerous and difficult in many situations." So presumably you have a problem with any or all of those if you're saying that I am super committed to saying nothing useful to the OP.

You also claimed, specifically in response to me: 1) That the scorp grappling the fighter is bad for the team. 2) That the fighter would die on the first round. 3) That 1d20+1 beats 1d20+7 most of the time, 4) That you should evaluate builds against monsters that are off the RNG of them and that require abilities they don't have. 5) That you should do 4 in a way that makes it completely unclear what the win condition is. 6) That CR 7 is challenging for a level 3 party (even though the DMG specifically says that CR 3 is). 7) That I claimed there was any issue with your strategy.

So basically, the claims that are useless are all the ones you made after I posted in response to me.

[LudicSavant]

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Or you throw flasks or shoot a bow for a full attack, because it is denied it's dex bonus to ac.
You talk about using ranged sneak attacks on the Scorpion while it's grappling the fighter and denied dex to AC, yet you do not seem to be aware that you have an equal chance of hitting the Fighter with said sneak attacks. Sneak attacking your own party members is generally a bad idea. See PHB pg151.


Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike.


3) That one attack would have basically no chance of grappling the fighter in a single claw, even a level 3 fighter. So if the scorpion grapples it will be denied dex to ac and unable to run away.
You also mention that the Scorpion can't run off unless it grabs the enemy with one claw, but this is also untrue. See the text of Improved Grab: It can move while grappling regardless of whether it uses only one claw.


When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.


You also claimed, specifically in response to me:
...

2) That the fighter would die on the first round.

3) That 1d20+1 beats 1d20+7 most of the time,

4) That you should evaluate builds against monsters that are off the RNG of them and that require abilities they don't have.

5) That you should do 4 in a way that makes it completely unclear what the win condition is.

I did not claim any of those things. Please do not put words in my mouth.

- I said that one risk of many possible outcomes was that the fighter could die in one full attack routine. I did not claim that he would die in the first round, or even in one attack routine, which is why I continued to list other possibilities.
- I said that 2 tries of 1d20+1 vs 1d20+7 wins sometimes (a non-negligible portion of times), again while charting a list of possible outcomes. I did not say that it happened most of the time. I said it was a non-negligible risk. There is a very big difference between those two positions. If you're rolling 1d20+1 grapple vs 1d20+7 grapple each time the scorpion hits, that means each hit carries a 22.75% chance that the Fighter will be grappled. If you're hit twice in a round, that means you have ~40% chance of getting grappled without the scorpion taking any penalties for grappling the Fighter.
- I believe that a strategy that beats harder encounters with less risk is a stronger strategy. I maintain that a strategy that creates additional risk is not the "easiest" or "best" thing for the party.

As for claims I actually did make:


1) That the scorp grappling the fighter is bad for the team.

Yes. I think that the scorp grappling the fighter is worse for the team than the team kiting the scorpion. It is my general opinion that getting into melee with or being grappled by Huge Monstrous Scorpions at level 3 is not, in general, an ideal strategy.

Moreover, if you're using ranged attacks instead of melee attacks, there's a very real chance that you could hit the Fighter with your attacks, because according to the PHB (pg151) you have to roll randomly to determine which grappled target you hit. You are as likely to sneak attack your Fighter as you are to sneak attack the giant vermin. I do not consider killing my teammates to be good for the team.

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[TIPOT]

Why can't you just ask the party wizard to cast grease? :smallconfused: Trying to optimise UMD for combat always struck me as strange in what is a team game where the wizard should be happy to help.

[Beheld]

Since I feel that your tone has grown increasingly hyperbolic, sarcastic and hostile (with claims like "it must secretly have a divine rank"), and it seems you are attacking straw men instead of any claims I've actually made (such as the above examples or the whole rant about level 7 characters when I was talking about level 3 characters), I don't think I will be responding to you any longer. Have a nice day. :smallsmile:

{{scrubbed}}


Beheld, you appear to be unaware of quite a few of the rules. For instance...

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You talk about using ranged sneak attacks on the Scorpion while it's grappling the fighter and denied dex to AC, yet you do not seem to be aware that you have an equal chance of hitting the Fighter with said sneak attacks. Sneak attacking your own party members is generally a bad idea. See PHB pg151.

You seem to be so unaware that you missed that I specifically talked about how because the Scorpion is huge, when it pulls the fighter into it's square you can still hit the scorpion in a square the fighter isn't in. Not only do I know this rule I addressed it in the post where I first talked about using ranged sneak attacks against the scorpion.


You also mention that the Scorpion can't run off unless it grabs the enemy with one claw, but this is also untrue. See the text of Improved Grab: It can move while grappling regardless of whether it uses only one claw.

{{scrubbed}}

"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself . . . When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent)."

The scorpion does not have a hold on the fighter unless it takes a -20 penalty, and therefore fails to grapple him basically ever. So yes, pursuant to the rules of improved grab, he cannot run off with the fighter when grappling normally, only when he chooses to take a -20 penalty to hold the opponent. Thems the rules. But thank you for contradicting me when you are so clearly in the wrong.


I did not claim any of those things. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Yes, you claimed all those things, that is the point. You accused me or criticizing your "team builds" and "options as less than strong" when I never said anything about that. You later acted with complete bewilderment when I suggested using ranged sneak attacks. That was because you continued to labor under the assumption that I was someone else. You claimed that we should evaluate the party against an encounter that is "challenging" for the party in the form of a CR 7, even though that is factually not what challenging means in the context of D&D CR.


- I said that one risk of many possible outcomes was that the fighter could die in one full attack routine. I did not claim that he would die in the first round, or even in one attack routine, which is why I continued to list other possibilities.

You wrote out a full attack routine for a monster that isn't getting a full attack routine in the first round, and then said it does an average of 50 damage, even though you gave it two constricts, which it does not get without taking -20 penalties (and therefore actually getting zero constricts). Even though that is also wrong, because it doesn't even do an average of 50 damage even with two constricts, since it has to hit on attacks. You claimed the fighter dying was even a possibility, when it both a) Isn't at all on the first round, b) is basically negligible even if the scorpion does get a full attack. It doesn't matter if your vague pronouncement was only wrong instead of hyper mega wrong. No one would fairly read my criticism as saying you claimed he had a 100% chance of dying, anyone reading for any purpose other than disingenuous weaseling would see that I was claiming the fighter would not die at all, so your statement that he would is just wrong. It doesn't matter what percentage chance you claim he has of dying, because whatever percent, the actual percent is zero, and you are wrong.


- I said that 2 tries of 1d20+1 vs 1d20+7 wins sometimes (a non-negligible portion of times), again while charting a list of possible outcomes. I did not say that it happened most of the time. I said it was a non-negligible risk. There is a very big difference between those two positions. If you're rolling 1d20+1 grapple vs 1d20+7 grapple each time the scorpion hits, that means each hit carries a 22.75% chance that the Fighter will be grappled. If you're hit twice in a round, that means you have ~40% chance of getting grappled without the scorpion taking any penalties for grappling the Fighter.

Except that you are still pretending the scorpion magically rolls 20s. First he has to hit the AC of at least 19, if not much higher from shield/spell/any magic items/AC build. Since the scorpion hits on both attacks about 42% of the time, that chance is drastically lower. So that thing you dishonestly implied might happen about 40% of the time actually, if the fighter has the lowest reasonable grapple mod, and the lowest possible AC for a level 3 fighter, and is inexplicably a level 3 fighter in the first place, then there is about a 20% chance that he will actually be grapple if he is subject to a full attack. Though as previously stated, there is a 0% chance that he will be full attacked on the first round of combat.


- I believe that a strategy that beats harder encounters with less risk is a stronger strategy. I maintain that a strategy that creates additional risk is not the "easiest" or "best" thing for the party.

Your strategy comes with a variety of costs and disadvantages that don't help you at all against challenging encounters in exchange for helping you against really stupid CR 7 monsters (but not intelligent ones). That is not a stronger strategy. But the claims you are actually disputing are that you said that you should evaluate parties against monsters that are off the RNG from what you would normally fight, and do so in a way that provides no clear method of determining if the party won. Those are both emphatically things you did claim when you claimed absolutely and straightforwardly that everyone should be evaluating parties against monsters that are 4 CR higher than the party level. You committed yourself to that position, even though it makes no sense, because those monsters are off the RNG from what you will actually be facing, and you can't give a coherent nonbaseless definition of what it counts to win a SGT encounter for a party, because there is none, because your method has no clear way of determining wins.

This isn't about your strategy being stronger or weaker or being able to beat harder or weaker encounters, it is about your claim that it is cheating for us to evaluate your strategy against the monsters the party will actually be facing, because you think it is better to evaluate your strategy against monsters the party won't be facing because they have a 50% chance of TPK.


Yes. I think that the scorp grappling the fighter is worse for the team than the team kiting the scorpion. It is my general opinion that getting into melee with or being grappled by Huge Monstrous Scorpions at level 3 is not, in general, an ideal strategy.

No one is contesting that if you have access to the houseruled level 1 Rogue spell "All Monsters stand around doing nothing, no save" they should do that. But the Monstrous Scorpion has 60ft Tremorsense, Darkvision, and a 100ft charge range. If you are walking down a corridor with a light source, it can know where you are around corners and in the case of a straight line, it can charge at you and hit you in the surprise round. There certainly exist some level 3 parties where everyone has darkvision and you don't need a light source, but in PHB only games, those parties don't include gnomes. So right off the bat your plan to do anything at all that doesn't account for the fact that the Scorpion will have a surprise round on you one way or another, and will, according to the stated tactics in the MM, use that to charge in and attack (where possible) is a failure of a strategy.


Moreover, if you're using ranged attacks instead of melee attacks, there's a very real chance that you could hit the Fighter with your attacks, because according to the PHB (pg151) you have to roll randomly to determine which grappled target you hit. You are as likely to sneak attack your Fighter as you are to sneak attack the giant vermin. I do not consider killing my teammates to be good for the team.

As I explained in the post where I brought this up, the Scorpion's size works against it in this regard, since you can attack the scorpion in a square the fighter is not in.


{{scrubbed}}

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[LudicSavant]

Why can't you just ask the party wizard to cast grease? :smallconfused: Trying to optimise UMD for combat always struck me as strange in what is a team game where the wizard should be happy to help.

UMD provides a lot of useful utility, and also grants you access to using scrolls and wands for any class, not just the Wizard spell list. And of course, the Wizard can provide a lot of useful utility, too, but... I mean, I wouldn't ask "why should I deal damage? Can't the Wizard blast it?" Two people have actions to use. If you're casting Grease, the Wizard can do something else. Also, if you're a forward scout or infiltrating assassin, you care about self-sufficiency more than pretty much any other party member.

UMD is good against quite a lot of things at level 3, provided you get your bonus up to a solid level. This is very doable in core-only, especially if custom items (per DMG guidelines) are allowed. Even if your UMD isn't fully optimized, you can still make good use of it for utility, getting the drop on foes, or turns in which you don't really have much else to do (as long as you don't fail by more than 10 or get a mishap, and you shouldn't have less than +10 UMD).

So, here's a list of reasons to use UMD:

- Cure Light Wounds wands can be used out of combat to cure everyone up to full, which is especially important if you don't have a divine caster on the team. Unless you're rolling a natural 1, failures don't matter because you can just retry. Same goes for any out-of-combat utility spells. I've had UMD-users act as the party healer, including in low level games. Just make sure you have a backup plan in case you roll a natural 1 and can't activate one given item for a while.

- If you are getting the drop on a foe (e.g. you used stealth, they can't see you), you may also have a chance to freely retry UMD checks (unless you roll a nat 1, of course). Opening combat with Entangle or something can be a big deal.

- You probably will not be able to sneak attack every turn, or against every foe. You will want to have something to do, and that usually either means normal attacks (like a Fighter but worse, especially if you're TWFing), or using items. Being able to cast Entangle when you run into a Gelatinous Cube or a group of orc skeletons is nice. Undead, oozes, elementals, plants, swarms... all of them can't be sneak attacked if you're going core-only, and those types account for a lot of monsters.

- A lot of creatures become much less threatening if you can use Entangle. Examples of EL3 things that just plain can't get to you if you use Entangle include Gelatinous Cubes, Large Monstrous Scorpions, Ogres, Lions, or groups of orc skeletons with falchions.

- Grease is also effective against monsters that need to engage in melee to be a threat, and doesn't have a terrain limitation. It also will allow you to enable sneak attacks in situations where it might otherwise have been difficult to do so (walking into melee is often dangerous in D&D).

- Protection from (Alignment) spells are great. 1 minute even at CL1. Immunity to some really nasty stuff, +2 to AC and saves, and hedging out summons.

- Magic Weapon or Shillelagh, since there's a fair chance party members won't have magic weapons yet and you might run into an Allip or something (they're CR3).

- Silent Image. Make illusions.

- Enlarge Person. Make your flanking buddy happy.

- Some useful spells are level 1 for Rangers or Paladins (though this still means you can't get a wand lower than CL2 in core only, I think). That means you can grab things like Lesser Restoration or Resist Energy.

- Lots of little situational things. Hide from Undead (which offers no save to unintelligent undead), Comprehend Languages (helpful for spying/scouting), Ghost Sound, Unseen Servant tricks, that sort of thing.

[ericgrau]

Rogues are fragile in general. In core you have no way to optimize that away. They also make worse fighters than fighters/barbs/paladins. I'd go for a ranged rogue who is also a skillmonkey. You can fight but you do so at a safe distance. That way you can contribute in a battle without quickly getting hurt and becoming a liability. Your advantage over the better fighters is that you also have your skills. Read through the skill rules because even many DMs don't know them that well.

As a ranged rogue your primary contribution is the alpha strike. You may sneak attack any foe that hasn't taken his first turn, because he is flat footed. Full attack for lots of hits that are all sneak attacks. Your goal of scouting will be very useful here, because it will help make sure your party surprises the enemy and not vis versa. Take the skills for it of course. If you get a surprise round then that attack is a sneak attack and you may full attack sneak attack round 1 on top of that, provided that the foe still hasn't taken his first turn. For rounds 2+ see if the party caster will prepare spells like grease, glitterdust and later greater invisibility. Say pretty please. Otherwise that's ok, your main thing is skills since again you are an ok fighter not a full fighter.

As a gnome your strength isn't that high so you'll probably want a crossbow. And leveling is slow so you want to be effective right out the gate. You could take point blank shot, rapid shot and rapid reload, but then you wouldn't be ready until the painfully late level 6. Or you have to dip fighter meaning 1 less sneak attack die to start. I suggest two weapon fighting with hand crossbows. You lose 1.5 damage on average which is not insignificant, but worth it to save two feats. Reloading them isn't a big issue since your main damage is round 1. To avoid losing them when you flee I suggest tying a string to them and tying the other end to your belt. For rounds 2-3, drop 1 and use your free hand to reload.

For your next feats I suggest point blank shot, quick draw, rapid shot then improved initiative or precise shot. A +1 to hit & damage is worth about as much as a sneak attack die. So a fighter dip would be nice for the feats and the lost sneak attack die will be more than worth it. You can always catch up on skills after the dip and pay extra for your most important skills (like hide & move silently) during the dip. Level 3 you take a rogue level and PBS. For levels 4-5 take fighter to get quick draw and rapid shot. Round 1 fire twice, drop a crossbow, quickdraw another and fire a 3rd time. 3 sneak attacks. It's at a -4 to hit but your fighter level and PBS offsets two of that, effectively putting you back at the -2 you started at but with one more attack. Level 6 you go back to rogue, take improved init or precise shot, and your precious skills that you missed so much.

For gear you'll want to spend much of it on masterwork hand crossbows. At least two to start, and soon 3 to get the best alpha strike you can. By level 5 you'll have plenty of gold to make your spares masterwork too, unless your DM is stingy. Then it'll be nice to get bolts of every metal type in case of DR, and some magic bolts too. Start a fight empty handed and quick draw the correct crossbows. Plus it's nice imagery to be a gnome wearing an array of pistol sized crossbows. At level 6+ you might also want 3 screaming bolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#screamingBolt) as a nice mass debuff to save for the big boss fight(s), again treasure permitting. Also, hidden gnome covered in hand crossbows suddenly appears and fires bolts that yell at BBEG's henchman. Henchman drops, remaining foes are scared and take penalties. Yes please.

For remaining items potions of protection from evil and reduce person are nice cheap buff potions for buff rounds. Which you will get many of if your stealth is good. Check out the top of the wondrous items list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm) for more. Feather tokens, elixirs of hiding and sneaking to be uncatchable in the final major dungeon, and maybe a hand of the mage. Goggles of minute seeing help with search later. UMDing scrolls and wands is a nice idea too, but you'll need a +11 to get reliable enough to use utility scrolls and wands. That probably means level 7ish. Reliably using them in combat takes +10 more, so combat scrolls & wands are right out.



So, here's a list of reasons to use UMD:

Entangle
...
Grease
...
Protection from (Alignment) spells
...
Magic Weapon or Shillelagh
...
Enlarge Person.
Nononononono. He's low level. The UMD check fails until high level. By the time he gets a +19 UMD or close to it those spells aren't that useful. Use potions and oils instead for buff rounds, only 50 gp a pop. The utility spells are nice ideas though, because he can keep rerolling at his leisure between combats and the penalties for failed rolls are minimal. Maybe sometimes he could retry while using stealth, but not always and it arguably makes noise with a command word (even a faked command word) and/or makes him easy to see with faked gestures or waving a wand around.


Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list.
So most likely this involves vocal incantations, which must be done with a strong voice, and gestures. Maybe the DM will let it slide but he may not, and most likely the rules say it is noisy and showy.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: I would suggest y'all check yourselves, as some are beginning to wreck themselves.

[LudicSavant]

Nononononono. He's low level. The UMD check fails until high level. By the time he gets a +19 UMD or close to it those spells aren't that useful. Use potions and oils instead for buff rounds, only 50 gp a pop. The utility spells are nice ideas though, because he can keep rerolling at his leisure between combats and the penalties for failed rolls are minimal.

It's possible to have a fairly high UMD at level 3.

+2 Cha + 6 ranks + 2 masterwork tool is +10, which is a 55% success rate already for wands (and can't have mishaps).
+2 synergy for having one of its two synergy options (only works for scrolls)
+3 for a 900gp skill item, if custom items are allowed.
+3 if you take skill focus (since OP says he has only one feat to use for some reason. If there were two I'd probably suggest Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot).

That's +18 for scrolls, +16 for wands. That means wands work 85% of the time, CL1 scrolls 90% of the time.

[ericgrau]

It's possible to have a fairly high UMD at level 3.

+2 Cha + 6 ranks + 2 masterwork tool is +10, which is a 55% success rate already for wands (and can't have mishaps).
+2 synergy for having one of its two synergy options (only works for scrolls)
+3 for a 900gp skill item, if custom items are allowed.
+3 if you take skill focus (since OP says he has only one feat to use for some reason. If there were two I'd probably suggest Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot).

That's +18 for scrolls, +16 for wands. That means wands work 85% of the time, CL1 scrolls 90% of the time.

Masterwork tool is dubious, and skill magic item explicitly requires individual DM approval making it even more dubious. Plus the save DC on entangle/grease is 11. For buffs 50 gp potions/oils are cheap, more reliable and more quiet. Also a 14 cha is hard when being a lousy caster is not your main thing. He wants dex and con too. A 12 is already putting in some resources, or a 10 for a minor side ability since a DC 11 grease/glitterdust that can fail to cast isn't that spectacular. Ditto for blowing a feat.

[LudicSavant]

Masterwork tool is dubious, and skill magic item explicitly requires individual DM approval making it even more dubious.

If your DM decides to allow or disallow things, that will of course affect your choices.


Also a 14 cha is hard when being a lousy caster is not your main thing. He wants dex and con too.
OP said 32 PB, so I was imagining a spread like...

32 PB Ranged Rogue:
10 Str (2 points)
16 Dex (10 points)
14 Con (6 points)
14 Int (6 points)
10 Wis (2 points)
14 Cha (6 points)
- 32 points

[ericgrau]

Would rather have a 16 con or more dex focus (at the expense of other abilities) or etc. Regardless of how you do it those cha points are worth something. A custom magic item is questionable by RAW; the DM must question it and never blanketly allow them all. Unlisted MW skill tools are also sketchy territory. These aren't arbitrary considerations limited to picky DMs. There is major risk of missing one or both and good reason for it.

All to not always succeed at a level 1 DC 11 save spell. When your party could have real casters casting high DC 2nd and 3rd level spells. It's going a bit far.

Btw, why do the interwebs typically involve points about blowing major resources and questionable methods just for a side goal? As if it were no big deal? I mean not too long ago someone argued about a wizard blowing one of his 9s for a defense against one rare type of attack without any mention of how to predict the need for that defense or the slightest concession that there was anything unusual about having the 9 ready to go. He just has it, that's it, no biggy. As if online it's a bazooka to kill every ant, never mind the expense.

[LudicSavant]

Would rather have a 16 con or more dex focus (at the expense of other abilities) or etc. Regardless of how you do it those cha points are worth something. A custom magic item is questionable by RAW; the DM must question it and never blanketly allow them all. Unlisted MW skill tools are also sketchy territory. These aren't arbitrary considerations limited to picky DMs. There is major risk of missing one or both and good reason for it.

I already said "if the DM allows it." I really don't know what else you want.

[Reynard Loxley]

Would like to thank you all for your input again (didn't intend to start a UMD war either lol). For those who asked, I only have one feat because I've taken an in game feat to grant +1 natural armour (it's an RP/story element that I'm going for).

To update everyone, I've decided to go with Rog 1/ Rng 2. It fits thematically with the character and provides me with some decent tools to do the things I want. While it may not be the the most optimal; I've decided to put RP first in this instance.

Combat wise I'm going to go for a utility type, use the Ranger weapon expertise as ranged so get some bonuses there and primarily use reach weapons (glaive etc) so i can keep some distance and get AoO as often as possible. As a gnome my damage will never be as good as the rest of my party (all dwarfs and one half-elf) but I've already got the heavy hitters, I just need to do the forward scouting and unlock all the cool things.

I'm looking at an ability spread like this:

Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

At level 4 i'll add one point to str to give me a +2 to my attack (I have a +1 Comp. Bow atm which i'll upgrade to a +2 when I can). Then at the other two levels I gain ability points i'll up my wisdom. I won't need 14 wisdom til much later (for higher spells) so this seems to be a decent option for me.

Re UMD, while I do appreciate the greatness of it and how broad its uses could be; there's enough magic users in my party already (they're all clerics and paladins) for healing and my goal is to be a little different.

Thank you all again for your great advice!

[nedz]

Re UMD, while I do appreciate the greatness of it and how broad its uses could be; there's enough magic users in my party already (they're all clerics and paladins) for healing and my goal is to be a little different.

But do you have anyone who can do the Arcane magic ?

[ericgrau]

Would like to thank you all for your input again (didn't intend to start a UMD war either lol). For those who asked, I only have one feat because I've taken an in game feat to grant +1 natural armour (it's an RP/story element that I'm going for).

To update everyone, I've decided to go with Rog 1/ Rng 2. It fits thematically with the character and provides me with some decent tools to do the things I want. While it may not be the the most optimal; I've decided to put RP first in this instance.

Combat wise I'm going to go for a utility type, use the Ranger weapon expertise as ranged so get some bonuses there and primarily use reach weapons (glaive etc) so i can keep some distance and get AoO as often as possible. As a gnome my damage will never be as good as the rest of my party (all dwarfs and one half-elf) but I've already got the heavy hitters, I just need to do the forward scouting and unlock all the cool things.

I'm looking at an ability spread like this:

Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 10

At level 4 i'll add one point to str to give me a +2 to my attack (I have a +1 Comp. Bow atm which i'll upgrade to a +2 when I can). Then at the other two levels I gain ability points i'll up my wisdom. I won't need 14 wisdom til much later (for higher spells) so this seems to be a decent option for me.

Re UMD, while I do appreciate the greatness of it and how broad its uses could be; there's enough magic users in my party already (they're all clerics and paladins) for healing and my goal is to be a little different.

Thank you all again for your great advice!
Ah that gives you rapid shot, which should work out well. The alpha strike full attack sneak attack tactics still work, only the weapon is changed to a composite bow and your feats all change except maybe keep improved init. Instead of screaming bolts consider sleep arrows (DMG) for boss fights. Drow sleep poison is even better if you can get it on the black market. The remaining tips still work.


But do you have anyone who can do the Arcane magic ?
Yeah.

Since your party is all divine casters what you can do easily with UMD without blowing resources like feats or magic items or ability scores are 1st level arcane utility scrolls. If you fail a check simply keep retrying until you succeed or get a natural 1. Spare scrolls will help in case of a natural 1. Dig through the PHB and find all the 1st level sor/wiz/bard utility scrolls. Unseen servant, mount (nice sacrificial body) and caster level 3 tenser's floating disk (75 gp each) are a few of my favorites. You might also like disguise self for trickery, and if you put ranks in disguise you can do it better than a real wizard. But at 25 gp a pop get at least 1 copy of every one. Who knows what might come up. When you get a bit more money you can pick up a wand of invisibility and UMD it. That will be helpful for all the scouting you do, or even to conceal the entire party if you get a spare (in case you roll a 1 halfway through). When you get there ask the DM if there are used wands with fewer charges at a reduced price. Newly crafted wands have 50 charges, but used ones should have a random number of charges and a proportionate cost. Likewise a cleric can cast silence on you or on side passages. Silencing the voices of those you are trying to sneak past is a dead giveaway, but blocking off a side passageway with a silence spell is not.



At level 4 i'll add one point to str to give me a +2 to my attack (I have a +1 Comp. Bow atm which i'll upgrade to a +2 when I can).
You'll have to sell the bow and buy a new one since you can't upgrade by the rules. Unless your DM is giving you an exception? Otherwise a nice idea and even if you have to sell it's only a couple hundred gp lost.

[Eldariel]

If the party is all divine casters, it's not entirely impossible to pull off a Rogue 1/Wizard 19 given sufficient Intelligence (it would indeed kinda require at least 18 in Intelligence tho). Of course, it's quite painful skill point wise (since you have to buy most things cross-class later on) but you get a good baseline level 1 and then you're able to keep few select ones maxed and Sorcerer-level casting to complement your skills and the party - and the ability to use all Wizard spell completion and trigger items basically at will.

A party would probably really love access to arcane magic too (if I understood correctly that you have no Wizards/Sorcerers as it stands): the boons of Grease have been covered in length but the other level 1 utility (Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Charm Person, Protection from Alignment, Silent Image, etc.) and the offensive spells (Color Spray & Sleep) are a great addition to the party's toolbox. Next level, you get access to Web/Pyrotechnics/Glitterdust/Invisibility/Alter Self/Fog Cloud/Summon Swarm/Summon Monster II, and utility like Knock, Shatter, See Invisibility, etc. And it just gets better from there. A large portion of Wizard spells synergize great with what a Rogue is trying to do anyways so it's not a terrible archetype mash-up either. And you end up with 48 skill points as a Rogue on L1 so while you won't be getting that many ranks outside few select skills (with Int 18, you could do Knowledge: Arcane, Spellcraft, Search & Disable Device), you've got a good baseline and particularly your Int-based skills will be stellar.

[nedz]

If the party is all divine casters, it's not entirely impossible to pull off a Rogue 1/Wizard 19 given sufficient Intelligence (it would indeed kinda require at least 18 in Intelligence tho). Of course, it's quite painful skill point wise (since you have to buy most things cross-class later on) but you get a good baseline level 1 and then you're able to keep few select ones maxed and Sorcerer-level casting to complement your skills and the party - and the ability to use all Wizard spell completion and trigger items basically at will.

A party would probably really love access to arcane magic too (if I understood correctly that you have no Wizards/Sorcerers as it stands): the boons of Grease have been covered in length but the other level 1 utility (Ray of Enfeeblement, Enlarge Person, Charm Person, Protection from Alignment, Silent Image, etc.) and the offensive spells (Color Spray & Sleep) are a great addition to the party's toolbox. Next level, you get access to Web/Pyrotechnics/Glitterdust/Invisibility/Alter Self/Fog Cloud/Summon Swarm/Summon Monster II, and utility like Knock, Shatter, See Invisibility, etc. And it just gets better from there. A large portion of Wizard spells synergize great with what a Rogue is trying to do anyways so it's not a terrible archetype mash-up either. And you end up with 48 skill points as a Rogue on L1 so while you won't be getting that many ranks outside few select skills (with Int 18, you could do Knowledge: Arcane, Spellcraft, Search & Disable Device), you've got a good baseline and particularly your Int-based skills will be stellar.

Core only is hard, especially for some character concepts.

A variant of the above option is to use interleaving.
Rogue 1 / Wizard 3 / {Rogue +1/Wizard+2}*
Basically every third level you take a level of Rogue, the purpose of this is to catch up on your skill points.
Now you need Int, and Human wouldn't hurt, and also you need to focus on a subset of the Rogue skills you want.
You are going to need Concentration and Spellcraft for the Wizard bit and Hide, Move S, Spot and Listen for the Scout stuff. With 18 Int and Human you would be getting {13,7,7} skill points, which averages out at 9 per level, though you will lose some due to Cross Classing.
Trapfinding requires Disable Device and Search — so you might consider not taking these in order to give yourself more options elsewhere.
You probably want Tumble too.

Now you are giving up caster levels so this is not High OP, but it's an option.