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Aasimar
2015-11-11, 06:30 PM
I feel like an idiot. I also feel like I kinda got the rough end of the stick.

I'm playing in a pathfinder game. 3rd level, playing a pretty bad-ass half-orc rogue2/barbarian1 with a greataxe. She was doing pretty good as the party trapfinder, intimidator and head-smasher.

We're checking out a cultist mine in the Age of worms campaign (pretty early on) and one of the rooms that we open has about 8 people inside, chanting in some language.

The DM kinda hinted that there wasn't necessarily a fight going to happen, but wanted an initiative anyway because order of play was important.

My half-orc goes first, and I decide to storm in and try to intimidate them into shutting the hell up with the annoying chanting. (thinking I might get them talking)

The intimidate is unsuccessful and they rush me. The first one tries to grapple me, provokes an AoO and I kill him. Three more rush to grapple, no more AoO, two get lucky and hit and according to the GM, that makes me first grappled, then pinned. Then the last four advance with longspears and each poke me with them, as I'm pinned, they all hit (and one crits) dropping me to -10 hp (con is 13, so still barely alive)

The rest of the group moves, pretty worried at this point. One of them mentioned that rushing in like this was a bit of an [expletive deleted] move on my part, which I can see how some people might think. I was thinking cinematically, not 'tactical boardgamingly'.

The paladin does a lay on hands on me for 2 hp, the sorcerer, fighter and cleric manage to drop all but three of the 8 enemies, and two of those three are stunned.

The one guy who could still move did a coup de grace on my character, and then the party finished wiping them.

Then the Gm revealed that they were all level 1 commoners, and that the scenario explicitly calls for them to single mindedly try to take down the PCs one at a time.

So I guess I can't be too bitter, but it still stings like a...well, something that stings a lot.

To add insult to injury, he makes it clear that raise dead is out of the picture for our level and wealth at the moment, and also that I'm coming in with a new character with the minimum XP for level 3 (instead of nearly level 4 like I was)

Added to this I'm kinda sorta locked into filling the rogue's shoes, and I'm not sure I want to play another rogue.

Anyway, just venting I guess.

The Glyphstone
2015-11-11, 06:41 PM
Barbarian 3 this time, and 'disarm' traps with your face?

Sorcerer or Oracle with the Seeker archetype?

Crypt Breaker Alchemist?


Technically also Slayer and Investigator, but they're Rogue hybrids anyways.

Aasimar
2015-11-11, 06:46 PM
mmm, maybe. The GM is really iffy about archetypes in general, and mostly only allows core classes and core races (and in fact, only core feats and talents without special permission) By core I mean players handbook only.

Right now I'm tending towards elf arcane trickster and just being super careful, super tactical and not someone who'd go out on a limb unless it made tactical sense for themselves. (as I'm feeling punished for trying to be bombastic and fun)

Kane0
2015-11-11, 06:55 PM
Your bad-ass half orc's dad, Barbarian 2/rogue 1.

To hell with their tactical play, you're here for the fun!

Edit: Also, what was your CMD? I can't see much chance in them getting both of those off to grapple/pin you if it were decent.

Lappy9001
2015-11-11, 06:56 PM
Maybe go for a ranged option so this doesn't happeb again? Does your party already have a bard?

And your GM has a problem with Archetypes? That's like the best thing about Pathfinder.

Aasimar
2015-11-11, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the suggestions guys.

There's a standing rule against coming in with a dead characters sibling or such, so I'm guessing the dad idea is out (still a good one though, I'll consider pushing for it)

There's something about ranged that just rubs me the wrong way, I want to be engaged in stuff...but I can see how that's a pretty irrational way to feel. Last game we had a level 20 ranger who kinda just killed everything with all his arrows per round, it made me feel that ranged attacks were like, powerful to the point of taking the fun out of it.

There's a fighter, a paladin and a melee cleric in this group, which to me screams 'ripe for flanking opportunities', but I think ranged is probably a good idea.

I agree about archetypes, I really can't see why someone wants to play pathfinder but tries to limit those. It sometimes feels like the GM is trying to play 3.5 with some bare pathfinder system upgrades and the refitted classes, but without wanting to take the full step.

Aasimar
2015-11-11, 07:19 PM
Edit: Also, what was your CMD? I can't see much chance in them getting both of those off to grapple/pin you if it were decent.

CMD was 17 (2 base attack, 3 strength, 2 dex)

One rolled a 20, another a 17

Talion
2015-11-11, 07:24 PM
You could try some druidry. Let the summoned animal hordes take care of the traps (hello dire rat), turn yourself into a bear to help out in melee (though you won't get to start playing with that until next level), give out some healing and buffs on the side...and maybe the odd direct damage spell. Plus your animal companion of course.

Lord Lemming
2015-11-11, 07:35 PM
The paladin does a lay on hands on me for 2 hp, the sorcerer, fighter and cleric manage to drop all but three of the 8 enemies, and two of those three are stunned.

The one guy who could still move did a coup de grace on my character, and then the party finished wiping them.


How did the last guy manage to coup de grace you? It's a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity; so if the fighter, paladin and cleric were all in the fight, then they should have been able to cap the guy when he went to finish you.

Also, I might consider that move by the DM... questionable, even if it doesn't stray into **** territory just yet. Even a crazy cultist who attacks until dead would consider the up-and-moving combatants greater threats than the one that's already taken down and might (to their knowledge) already be dead.

Knaight
2015-11-11, 07:43 PM
So what I'm hearing is that your character busted into a room full of cultists, got rushed by eight of them, cut one down, and managed to survive getting piled on and then stabbed by multiple spear users until someone went out of the way to finish the job. That sounds like a pretty bad-ass way to go down.

Aasimar
2015-11-11, 08:07 PM
How did the last guy manage to coup de grace you? It's a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity; so if the fighter, paladin and cleric were all in the fight, then they should have been able to cap the guy when he went to finish you.


Oh really? Seems both myself and the GM forgot that it provokes.

Seems a bit late to call for a do-over though.

But thanks for the info.

Kane0
2015-11-11, 10:48 PM
Might just be my experience, but Pathfinder has never struck me as a system that promotes immersion. No matter how much I play, initiative always means combat, and combat always means putting your flavor on the backburner and bringing out the tactics.

Another funny thing i've picked up on: If in a PF adventure path that there is a big blurb about the room you just walked into, there is a very good chance you should just roll initiative as soon as the first paragraph is finished being read. The last thing in those things is "Oh by the way, there's a monster here too."
Isn't that literally the first thing you'd notice, rather than the fireplace or the wall paintings or the chains in the corner?

Susano-wo
2015-11-11, 11:40 PM
If its last session, it sounds pretty easy to just say that you almost dies, but the Paladin healed you. Assume the cultist was cut down by the AoO's. That sounds perfectly reasonable. (and if DM objects, maybe remind him that it was his screw-up that caused said death, as the rules adjudicator?) Also, that is a pretty badassed way to go, considering all you survived before the CDG.:smallamused:

Incidentally, the CDG seems like its going a bit too far, considering the in game factor that the cultists are supposed to be semi crazed, it seems (set to single mindedly attack a target until its death, even if there are other threats) which makes having the presence of mind to carefully attack the helpless target, thus activating the CDG unlikely, as well as the meta concerns that it creates a death situation from what sounds like 3 unlucky rolls for you. Or possible 2 unlucky rolls and a tactic that could not work due to unforeseen plot factors (the intimidate could have not been possible due to the cultists' mental states)

avr
2015-11-11, 11:48 PM
If one person grapples you, the next person doesn't get a free grapple on you. They can assist the first person trying to pin you but they can't jump straight to grappling you for free and use their own action to pin you that round.


Multiple creatures can attempt to grapple one target. The creature that first initiates the grapple is the only one that makes a check, with a +2 bonus for each creature that assists in the grapple (using the Aid Another action).

You had the grappled condition, which is not the same as the second person already grappling you when their action comes around.

Jayngfet
2015-11-13, 04:00 PM
You're a low level character rushing into a room outnumbered eight to one. I'm not really sure what you expected. I mean, being charitable you may have managed a surprise round but even then the raw number crunching means there's no real way you could manage it.

I mean no offense, but that's not "bombastic and fun" in the barbarian sense. Because even Conan himself knew when it was important to sneak around and get tactical, and to save the showmanship for situations that weren't life threatening(usually).

I should know. I've tried pulling the same stunt a bunch of times when I was young with the same logic, and I wound up getting killed basically every time.

DuxAstrorum
2015-11-13, 04:07 PM
I have come across similar situations in the past, mostly with masses of low level guards. Worst one was a group of 6 that I thought I could take on turned into a mass of 64 angry dwarves. So I understand your pain on the death by minion sting.

As for replacing the character, I'm not sure if your GM would allow it, but I personally love the versatility of an inquisitor.

PrismCat21
2015-11-13, 06:19 PM
So DM hinted there was not going to be combat. You won initiative, tried to intimidate, and failed. Did you not get a surprise round on the cultists? Did the DM inform you there was now a combat encounter after all?

It does seem a bit underhanded that he killed you like that. He got multiple rules wrong that directly led to your death, and purposely misled you on what the situation was.

Others have pointed out the discrepancies on how he handled Grappling and Coup de Grace. It is not unreasonable in the least to request that your character survived. It was likely an honest mistake and if so, it needs to be rectified. Cheers mate!

Chauncymancer
2015-11-16, 11:54 AM
The last thing in those things is "Oh by the way, there's a monster here too."
Isn't that literally the first thing you'd notice, rather than the fireplace or the wall paintings or the chains in the corner?

The idea is that the /real/ last thing you say is "[Player X] what do you do about it?" And you want "It" to be the last thing you described. It's in order of descriptive flow, not ic salience.

Quertus
2015-11-16, 05:56 PM
How did the last guy manage to coup de grace you? It's a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity; so if the fighter, paladin and cleric were all in the fight, then they should have been able to cap the guy when he went to finish you.

Also, I might consider that move by the DM... questionable, even if it doesn't stray into **** territory just yet. Even a crazy cultist who attacks until dead would consider the up-and-moving combatants greater threats than the one that's already taken down and might (to their knowledge) already be dead.

If the DM did mess up (and this isn't just a case of, "the PCs did not threaten the cultist, who was within 5' of your character, and who made the heal check to realize that you weren't dead / make the knowledge: religion check to know that the paladin healed you, and so believed that the paladin believed that you were still alive"), then they should allow you run your old character.

If they messed up, and won't agree that your character is still alive, bring your character's old corpse with you. All the crazy cultists should attack it first, to make sure it is dead. Have your character's goal be to turn said corpse into a relic whose power is that it makes all monsters attack it first. Or, since you need trap-finding, a relic that all monsters and all traps target first. Then just play whatever you want. Problem solved!


Another funny thing i've picked up on: If in a PF adventure path that there is a big blurb about the room you just walked into, there is a very good chance you should just roll initiative as soon as the first paragraph is finished being read. The last thing in those things is "Oh by the way, there's a monster here too."
Isn't that literally the first thing you'd notice, rather than the fireplace or the wall paintings or the chains in the corner?

Haha - I do exactly the same thing, mentioning the creature(s) as late as possible in the description of the room. I do this because I want the players to save the "I stab it in the face!" while rolling for initiative until after I have described the cracks in the floor, the blood stains on the ceiling, the alcove the creature is standing in, and the lever in the creature's hand. No reason. :smallwink:

goto124
2015-11-17, 12:53 AM
http://i.imgur.com/0vWyQ2f.gif

Malifice
2015-11-17, 02:31 AM
The one guy who could still move did a coup de grace on my character, and then the party finished wiping them.

Then the Gm revealed that they were all level 1 commoners, and that the scenario explicitly calls for them to single mindedly try to take down the PCs one at a time.

First, your DM tells you 'Its not a combat encounter' so you roleplay social skill use. Your DM responds by... attacking you with all 8 monsters.

Your DM then screws up the rules, applying the 'pinned' condition to you when that's impossible in a singe round.

He then has a bunch of cultists grab pikes AND move (impossible for a 1st level commoner to do - thats 2 x move actions already) and crits you to death with a series of amazing rolls.

Then, when you are already down, he has his last surviving cultist stab you [as s coup de grace] again notwithstanding four other people are surrounding him, and knowing full well it would kill you.

He also completely messed up the attacks of opportunity that would have caused.

I'd be pretty annoyed at that to say the least. It was a totally unecessary PC death by your DM, that followed on from several rules mistakes, poor NPC characterisation, and crappy information to the players (heck, even misinformation).

Id have a word with him about it. About his rules mistakes at the very least. I'd probably also mention that it was a bit of a ****ty thing to do.