Undead

[ZhanStrider]

am I wrong, or undead can't be raised twice?

If i make a zombie by casting "Create undead" and someone comes and kills it, it cant be raised again, even if i cast "create undead" on it again, right?

[Âmesang]

I'd have to do some digging, but I believe there's a sort of undead variant of resurrection that would allow a destroyed undead to be, um, brought back to unlife?

It's probably in the Spell Compendium, or maybe Libris Mortis.

EDIT: Yep, revive undead, LM, p.70… right next to the near mythical protection from positive energy.

[mabriss lethe]

To further flesh it out, Animate dead, create undead, etc. are one-and-done. If a reanimated corpse is destroyed, it can't be returned to unlife with the spells used to create it. you have to use something like Revive undead

[OldTrees1]

Quotes for clarity:

They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

However Create Undead(which does not have a Zombie option) does not have this clause.

So
You can't raise a new Zombie(Animate Dead) from the corpse left behind by the destruction of a Zombie that you animated.
You can* raise a new Ghoul(Create Undead) from the corpse left behind by the destruction of a Ghoul that you animated.
You can't raise the same Undead from a corpse unless you use Revive Undead.

*Maybe, it is not forbidden but that is not the same as being permitted. It also depends on how strong of a reference to Animate Dead the first line of Create Undead is. So this is all DM ruling territory.

[ZhanStrider]

Thanks for the help guys. My DM ruined my plan to stop his undead apocalypse, though. So. This didn't pan out

[Âmesang]

Well, if Buffy, the Vampire Slayer and Lollipop Chainsaw have taught me anything it's that nothing stops an undead apocalypse quite like cheerleaders.

[Chronos]

...Wait. Let me get this straight. You were trying to avert an undead apocalypse by reanimating all the dead bodies as skeletons first, and then immediately re-destroying them, so they couldn't come back as something worse?

That's epic. And metal.

[ShurikVch]

Well, if Buffy, the Vampire Slayer and Lollipop Chainsaw have taught me anything it's that nothing stops an undead apocalypse quite like cheerleaders.Except Buffy failed (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/End_of_Magic) it. Badly (http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Zompire).

[ZhanStrider]

...Wait. Let me get this straight. You were trying to avert an undead apocalypse by reanimating all the dead bodies as skeletons first, and then immediately re-destroying them, so they couldn't come back as something worse?

That's epic. And metal.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO METAL. But no, apparently if it was serial killer in life it can't come back as anything weaker than a mohrg (and we were in a mass grave of murderous black guards), so we couldnt pull it off (but it was such a good plan!)

[TheifofZ]

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO METAL. But no, apparently if it was serial killer in life it can't come back as anything weaker than a mohrg (and we were in a mass grave of murderous black guards), so we couldnt pull it off (but it was such a good plan!)

Well, that sounds like rule 0 stuff right there; the Restless Dead might have a predilection to reanimate in certain ways depending on their life, but there's nothing in any of the rules that says they absolutely must come back at this level, or of this type. Also: Any time a spell is used to animate a corpse, the spell should override any general absolute like that in favor of the specific effects of the spell. (That is: Animate Dead still makes a skeleton out of a serial killer, no matter how bad a dude he was, and Create Undead could still bring a young girl back as a ghoul, even if she was the epitome of purity and a perfect vegan.)
Which is a shame; it really is a super METAL plan. Though me being an evil necromancer type, I don't see the point in destroying the skeletons you animate.

[ZhanStrider]

Well, that sounds like rule 0 stuff right there; the Restless Dead might have a predilection to reanimate in certain ways depending on their life, but there's nothing in any of the rules that says they absolutely must come back at this level, or of this type. Also: Any time a spell is used to animate a corpse, the spell should override any general absolute like that in favor of the specific effects of the spell. (That is: Animate Dead still makes a skeleton out of a serial killer, no matter how bad a dude he was, and Create Undead could still bring a young girl back as a ghoul, even if she was the epitome of purity and a perfect vegan.)
Which is a shame; it really is a super METAL plan. Though me being an evil necromancer type, I don't see the point in destroying the skeletons you animate.

I totally understand the DM's call, it's a flavor thing. I'll use this plan some other time. (We couldn't keep the skeletons, the boss fight was with a level 12 pale master, he would've just jacked all the undead from us, we were just trying to keep them dead so he couldn't squash us with ease)

[BowStreetRunner]

Just skip the reanimation part and destroy the corpses.

[Chronos]

You have to destroy them awfully thoroughly, though, to beat the Martha Stewart necromancers.

[BowStreetRunner]

You have to destroy them awfully thoroughly, though, to beat the Martha Stewart necromancers.
Okay, the normal way to deal with corpses when trying to avoid reanimation is cremation - burn them to ash. I think this would do the trick in most instances. Regardless, I would really like to know what the heck a 'Martha Stewart Necromancer' is. You have piqued my interest!

[Chronos]

OK, took me a while to find the original quote:

Quoth Fouredged Sword:

The issue with burning bodies is that the undead that are created from burned bodies are more dangerous than the skeletons and zombies created by normal undead creation. If I remember right there is some kinda ash ghost thing that burns you.

Skeletons and Zombies are something your local millitia can handle. Ghost ash clouds, less so.

It is fairly hard to render a body into a form a necromancer can't do SOMETHING with it. They are the Martha Stewart's of spellcasters. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280397-Organ-Harvesting-Evil-Humanoids-Good-Evil-or-Neutral&p=15101280#post15101280)

[TheifofZ]

The fact that they really are the Martha Stewart of spellcasters is why they're one of my favorite types, actually.
Doesn't matter what quality ingredients you have, you can always make something interesting and exciting.
The local graveyard is the equivalent of the Necromancer Bargain Bin, even.
5 minutes of work and even if you just come up with a half rotted hand or dismembered torso, you've got something, to quote, 'fun for the whole family.'
And that's if you settle for the bargain bin; an adventuring Necromancer will almost always have high quality 'ingredients'. The normal Zombie and Skeleton templates are great on monsters, and Dread Warrior and a few other spells make humanoids with class levels great to reanimate too.

[OldTrees1]

You have to destroy them awfully thoroughly, though, to beat the Martha Stewart necromancers.


Quoth Fouredged Sword:

The issue with burning bodies is that the undead that are created from burned bodies are more dangerous than the skeletons and zombies created by normal undead creation. If I remember right there is some kinda ash ghost thing that burns you.

Skeletons and Zombies are something your local millitia can handle. Ghost ash clouds, less so.

It is fairly hard to render a body into a form a necromancer can't do SOMETHING with it. They are the Martha Stewart's of spellcasters.

Well, even if a necromancer can still use most "destroyed" bodies, they can also "destroy" a body prior to animation. So while "destroying" a body might not prevent or even weaken the eventual undead, it does lock the necromancer into only one of their various superior undead.