“We don’t serve your kind!”

[Job]

One this that has always bothered me about most large civilized societies in the default Dnd settings, and many homebrew settings as well, is that they consist almost elusively of humanoids. Now while this is understandable for more reasons then I have time to innumerate, it does seem odd with so many intelligent non-humanoid creatures that they would not play a role in bolstering the racial diversity of major cities, be frequent in trade with humanoids and a verity of other aspects of civilized life. Again something The Giant has also professed.

In my recent world homebrew I’m trying to upset that norm, and would like advice as to what race(s) would best fit the bill. As it currently stands I was going to use Aranea, as they are normally neutral, could provide goods and services such as construction, and could even change into a more human like form if the situation called for it.

Then of couse you have the added bonus of the players looking on quizzically as giant spiders walk down the main road and the townsfolk don’t seem to care.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The reason why most races that are playable are humanoid is simply because they're the ones with the lowest ECL. 'Taur races, for example (the centaur-like races which are four-footed), have an ECL of like +2, and they also have severe problems when dungeon crawling (can't climb anything but stairs, crawl, or jump that well). This problem is encountered with most, if not all, non-humanoid races. The ECL for playing them is just too high to make them viable characters.

Furthermore, most non-humanoid races have significant challenges which most humanoids wouldn't have. Avians, for example, don't have opposable thumbs, which means they can't grip anything. This means everything from weapons to levers.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I personally like the warforged. Minotaurs, maybe, possibly lots of savage humanoids living among humanoids. Taking the eberron approach and don't make alignment etched in stone, it's possible to have an ogre paladin. Maybe dragons, if that's not too cliche.

[Realms of Chaos]

Technically, any creature with an ECL is capable of being a rank-and-file citizen (such as gnolls or centaurs); any intelligent, allied being without an ECL is capable of being a useful tool or leader (such as solars or balors); and any unintelligent being (Int 4 or less) can be utilized if the civilization is stronger than it (like monstrous spiders, some oozes, and weaker zombies) or if they are "trainable" (like grey renders, any animal, most constructs, and any zombie or skeleton).

At least, that is how I view it.

[DracoDei]

Some ideas, some of which have been bouncing around in my head for a while, some of which I just brainstormed now (quality may vary greatly).

I see lawful dragons as being heavily involved in the financial sector on a daily basis. Good ones would try to focus on causes that would benefit society, but still would be investors, not philanthropists (usually). Evil ones might be loan sharks...

Hmmm... Displacer Beast stock clerks (don't need a ladder to reach stuff on the high shelves... :smallbiggrin: )... don't know if they even have a language technically, but you could tweak that.

Giant Eagles serving as the equivalent of police (and even traffic!) helicopters during the day, Giant Owls for the night shift. Also function as aerial taxicabs (saddle or enclosed hanging chair) and moderate sized package deliverers.

Blink dogs popping around a bureaucratic area verbally (in their own language) relaying messages. Or have specially enchanted shoulder bags that actually DO come with them when they Dimension Door along with their contents.

Imagine a cleaner version of Venice, Italy with merfolk, tritons and water nagas living below the water line and everybody else building on top of the other dwellings... interesting zoning laws might come into effect...

[Job]

The reason why most races that are playable are humanoid is simply because they're the ones with the lowest ECL. 'Taur races, for example (the centaur-like races which are four-footed), have an ECL of like +2, and they also have severe problems when dungeon crawling (can't climb anything but stairs, crawl, or jump that well). This problem is encountered with most, if not all, non-humanoid races. The ECL for playing them is just too high to make them viable characters.

Furthermore, most non-humanoid races have significant challenges which most humanoids wouldn't have. Avians, for example, don't have opposable thumbs, which means they can't grip anything. This means everything from weapons to levers.

This I understand acuity; however those aspects while preventing them from engaging in your standard “dungeon crawl” do not necessarily prohibit them from other types of adventure or city living entirely.

I wanted to include non-humanoids, not so much to be character options, but rather to bolster racial diversity so ecl is not a missive concern. Additionally my original concept, which was the Aranea, have a climb speed and opposable thumbs even in spider form. I also hope to modify the creature to retard its power a bit, lower ability scores and hit dice, ext.


Some ideas, some of which have been bouncing around in my head for a while, some of which I just brainstormed now (quality may vary greatly).

I see lawful dragons as being heavily involved in the financial sector on a daily basis. Good ones would try to focus on causes that would benefit society, but still would be investors, not philanthropists (usually). Evil ones might be loan sharks...

Hmmm... Displacer Beast stock clerks (don't need a ladder to reach stuff on the high shelves... )... don't know if they even have a language technically, but you could tweak that.

Giant Eagles serving as the equivalent of police (and even traffic!) helicopters during the day, Giant Owls for the night shift. Also function as aerial taxicabs (saddle or enclosed hanging chair) and moderate sized package deliverers.

Blink dogs popping around a bureaucratic area verbally (in their own language) relaying messages. Or have specially enchanted shoulder bags that actually DO come with them when they Dimension Door along with their contents.

Imagine a cleaner version of Venice, Italy with merfolk, tritons and water nagas living below the water line and everybody else building on top of the other dwellings... interesting zoning laws might come into effect...

Those are all perfectly acceptable ideas, thank you.

Interesting you should mention dragons; it was my plan to have a family of silver dragons be advisors and defenders of the human lands (a small peninsula) form the press of a massive elvish empire (needless to say, not your normal elves). I had not considered them having their hands in economics.

I’ve always been a big fan of blink dogs:smallsmile: .

[Demented]

Imagine a cleaner version of Venice, Italy with merfolk, tritons and water nagas living below the water line and everybody else building on top of the other dwellings... interesting zoning laws might come into effect...

I could scarcely sleep! Those three merfolk were at it ALL NIGHT! Yes, I said three. You would think someone could get a decent floor-level apartment without having to...

[Wraithy]

i've allways liked the idea of minotaurs being the mentally challenged shelve stackers of d&d.
but then you have the problem of some man-eating monsters moving in, alot of missing persons reports will need to be filled out.

[DracoDei]

Was looking for some more... came across something odd... turns out that Chaos Beasts are actually MARGINALLY logical. Chaotic Neutral and technically outsiders, they can transform those struck into Chaos Beasts... now if one assumes that personality survives the transformation, then this is actually a viable option for any commoner or expert who is CN anyway. Sure the transformation is mind-wrenching (involves being drained down to 0 wisdom), but you end up with a +7 Fortitude save (nice for NOT catching the deadly disease of the month as it rolls through town) and increased physical stats. And nobody said the initial blow had to be combative... scrape together 10 gp (competition drives prices down and with a chaotic alignment it isn't like they will have a guild structure...) and pay one to tap you lightly and away you go as a mass of randomly mutating flesh... of course I don't think they can reproduce except by 'infecting' people but if you have already HAD your kids or don't feel like getting into a long-term relationship ANYWAY... what is the loss? I guess technically you become sexless, but it just seems like it would fit the punk/goth crowd to a tee...

It is late... maybe I am just babbling, but there you go.

[DracoDei]

Consider also the possibilities of Formorians who make and abide by treaties, rather than just try to take over the world... a nest near town, perhaps with rapists etc sent over to live out there lives in hard labor, with the nest paying the city... and traders and workers doing labor in town as a common thing...

[Talanic]

Was looking for some more... came across something odd... turns out that Chaos Beasts are actually MARGINALLY logical. Chaotic Neutral and technically outsiders, they can transform those struck into Chaos Beasts... now if one assumes that personality survives the transformation, then this is actually a viable option for any commoner or expert who is CN anyway. Sure the transformation is mind-wrenching (involves being drained down to 0 wisdom), but you end up with a +7 Fortitude save (nice for NOT catching the deadly disease of the month as it rolls through town) and increased physical stats. And nobody said the initial blow had to be combative... scrape together 10 gp (competition drives prices down and with a chaotic alignment it isn't like they will have a guild structure...) and pay one to tap you lightly and away you go as a mass of randomly mutating flesh... of course I don't think they can reproduce except by 'infecting' people but if you have already HAD your kids or don't feel like getting into a long-term relationship ANYWAY... what is the loss? I guess technically you become sexless, but it just seems like it would fit the punk/goth crowd to a tee...

It is late... maybe I am just babbling, but there you go.


Mind-wrenching does not cover it. WIS of 4 is considered completely insane (see Derro). The way I see it, this thing completely destroys your consciousness entirely, then replaces you with a new chaos beast using the flesh that was once yours.

[jindra34]

Mind-wrenching does not cover it. WIS of 4 is considered completely insane (see Derro). The way I see it, this thing completely destroys your consciousness entirely, then replaces you with a new chaos beast using the flesh that was once yours.

There is no level of wis considered completely insane... Derro are crazy and that impedes the thought processes thus lowering wis... a low wis can be due to pretty much anything though...

[Demented]

There may be no level of WIS considered insane, but if your WIS were that low, you'd probably still qualify as insane to any onlooker.

[DracoDei]

There may be no level of WIS considered insane, but if your WIS were that low, you'd probably still qualify as insane to any onlooker.

Sounds reasonable, although maybe only moderately insane. In either case it isn't NECESSARILY conclusive (or even directly relevant) to the discussion.

[Matthew]

Heh, diverse civilised societies suggests tolerance for other races. This may well be or not be the case in D&D. Regardless, the situation in default Greyhawk D&D is that very small populations of Monstrous Races may well live in civilised zones, usually something like 1%, but tending to be higher in some places. Nonetheless, this is really a demography and 'how real is your fantasy?' issue. Still, an interesting idea.

[BarroomBard]

The way I see it, part of the reason for a lack of non-humanoids is xenophobia. I agree with Rich to some degree, but if you look at human history, the way things are seem a lot more normal.

The Roman Empire coexisted in a world with Gallic barbarians and Teutonic tribesmen, but if Uther Wulfbrecht were seen walking around the Roman marketplace, how do you think the average Joesephus Q. Roman would react?

Due to physiological differences, a race of spider people have a different kind of society than humanoids. Very different societies often have great difficulty getting along.

[Matthew]

Interestingly, we have records about how they reacted. With disapproval, generally. Still, the Roman Empire was a very inclusive society, but they had some very interesting views about how people were in the rest of the world and why.

[Poppatomus]

Of course, you could contrast with the Mongol empire, particularly under Genghis and Ogedai, where one would have been shocked not to find members of various ethnicities, religions and regions present at court or in the market place. In the end it comes down to the character of the individual empire, more than it reflects a general rule of human or Orc or gnomish nature.

[Gwenfloor]

Creatures that have good reputations and/or not currently at war with whatever society that they are in, can fit in. Blink Dogs could live side by side with citizens in Lawful-Good aligned governments, while Satyrs may be useful vineyard owners and workers. Giants can be used for tasks of great strength, like modern-day bulldozers, cranes, etc., especially the larger ones, such as Cloud Giants. Flying creatures can be extremely useful for long-term travel, as they are usually not impeded by terrain except for weather, while shape-shifters, as usual, make great spies and assassins, as long as they can be controlled and tracked down if they go rogue.
Creatures mainly predatory in nature, or are intelligent but choose to be no more than wilderness "monsters," such as Winter Wolves, Chokers, etc., may not be as readily accepted.

[Matthew]

Of course, you could contrast with the Mongol empire, particularly under Genghis and Ogedai, where one would have been shocked not to find members of various ethnicities, religions and regions present at court or in the market place. In the end it comes down to the character of the individual empire, more than it reflects a general rule of human or Orc or gnomish nature.
Indeed, but they all had a lower status than the Mongols themselves. Still, an interesting example. Their religion was also quite inclusive, much like the Romans. Kind of has to be to raise an Empire.

[Rimx]

Additionally my original concept, which was the Aranea, have a climb speed and opposable thumbs even in spider form. I also hope to modify the creature to retard its power a bit, lower ability scores and hit dice, ext.

I don't know if it'll be useful, but Aranea were a pc race in the 2nd ed. Savage Coast campaign setting. The setting's available for free at previous edition downloads section (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) of wotc's site or at Pandius.com as a pdf or html (http://www.pandius.com/svgecst.html). Here's their monster manual (http://www.pandius.com/aranea.html) entry.

[Poppatomus]

3.5 entry for the Aranea (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aranea.htm)

[Xuincherguixe]

My monster campaign is going to deal with this too a bit.

One thing is that most of the traditional player races all look pretty human. I'm still putting together a lot of things and when I manage to get it all worked out and generally coherent I'll put up a complete list of everything.

In this game, humans tend to be irrational and place a lot of stock in appearances. They tolerate these other races because they look kind of like them. So they're allowed to be limited citizens (what this means I'm not sure of yet. Fewer rights, but they won't be slaves per say)


It fits because it's arbitrary. Which is something that will come up a lot in the game.

[Ninja Chocobo]

In an upcoming campaign, I'm going to be playing a Drider.
Hence, my DM tells me I'll provoke a reaction similar to the topic. Only, it's "We don't not try to kill your kind!"
Since I'll be a CE Wizard/Sorceror/Ultimate Magus, I probably won't run out of "commoners die" spells before they run out of commoners.

[Callix]

It seems perfectly reasonable to suppose a society in which your shape is subsidiary to some other attribute. Look at Eberron. They have a country where your race is completely immaterial. It's your power, physical, arcane, god-given or political, that matters. This is an evil society. Why not have a good society in which minotaurs use their natural cunning to guide people through the poorly-planned alleyways, carrion crawlers and oozes roam the sewers, supported by intelligent beings with controlling abilities, cleaning the wastes, and araneas using web scaffolding and climb speeds, toghether with dwarven engineering and giant hauling power, to build strong, beautiful buildings. Put everything to a use. Have your aberrations in aberrant places. Put doppelgangers on the police force, and lycanthropes in the Night Watch (apologies to Pratchett. Read it.). Make everyone useful and productive, and you have a LG, monster-accepting society.

[Drager]

How about Phasm? I mean you'll need to weaken them considerably, but a shapechnging ooze might be an interesting citizen.

[CabbageTheif]

the way that i get around it is i have 'territories' where each intelligent creature lives, and the in-between towns are heavily populated by both. there are some northern viking cities that have minotaurs chillin', and the volcanic cities in the Burning Lands has a variety of gnomes, Yuan-ti, and some deeper areas of the volcano-cities have drow neighborhoods.

another thing that i do to keep it balanced is go the dragonlance route. it goes like this

the party walks into a forest. ranger says 'these tracks are all leading to someplace. i think we are close to a city!'. fighter says 'good,, sounds like a plan. lets rest there.' the party arrives. they are thrown in jail by the elven people because the elves thinl that the dirty humans brought evil to this world.
half-elven hexblade laughs at the party and says 'thats why i left'.

[Job]

I don't know if it'll be useful, but Aranea were a pc race in the 2nd ed. Savage Coast campaign setting. The setting's available for free at previous edition downloads section (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) of wotc's site or at Pandius.com as a pdf or html (http://www.pandius.com/svgecst.html). Here's their monster manual (http://www.pandius.com/aranea.html) entry.

Thank you,

It seems that Aranea will fit the bill and I will likely be using them. I don’t perceive this being to implausible especially if humans and other humanoids have always had to deal with their existence.

[Xuincherguixe]

Dragons, if they didn't feel demeaned by the role could deliver messages and cargo fairly effectively. They'd probably charge a lot, but I could see it happening. On a similar theme, they'd be good scouts, as soldiers goes without saying.

But then, it does a disservice to Dragons to make them something common.

Virtually anything I think can be found to have a usefulness, the tricky parts are why are they in the city. Genocidal tendencies tend to be reduced when you see the things doing a service for you.

[DracoDei]

"Common" can mean different things... compare the number of 747's in existence to the world population...

[Job]

DracoDei, that empty skin homebrew is absolutely brilliant, I salute you.