Belkar as a Risen Martyr?

[Quartz]

Despite his alignment and lack of pre-requisites, Belkar does fit the model of Risen Martyr (Book of Exalted Deeds p. 68) very nicely. He is, after all, on a quest to save the world and has just made his heroic sacrifice. And it's just the sort of trick that Loki would pull, don't you think?

I do think that The Giant would have to re-jig the class for a non-good martyr, but there are good opportunities for jokes. Deathless vs undead, for instance.

[hroþila]

Well yes, if you ignore the bits that don't fit, it fits.

[littlebum2002]

I think you deserve an award for being the first person ever to put "Belkar" and "the book of exalted deeds" in the same sentence.

[Quartz]

I think you deserve an award for being the first person ever to put "Belkar" and "the book of exalted deeds" in the same sentence.

I blame Mr Scruffy.

[NerdyKris]

I don't think "getting caught eavesdropping and then being thrown out a window" really counts as a "heroic sacrifice". I mean, besides the fact that there is no way he's dead. It's been fifteen strips since he fell. Rich isn't going to just have a main character thrown out a window and then forgotten about until they're ready to leave. And even if he was dead, that's not a heroic sacrifice. He didn't do anything but die. He didn't save anyone, or alert anyone, or change the course of events at all, except that he's now presumed dead and primed for a surprise return attack.

[Vinyadan]

I don't think "getting caught eavesdropping and then being thrown out a window" really counts as a "heroic sacrifice". I mean, besides the fact that there is no way he's dead. It's been fifteen strips since he fell. Rich isn't going to just have a main character thrown out a window and then forgotten about until they're ready to leave. And even if he was dead, that's not a heroic sacrifice. He didn't do anything but die. He didn't save anyone, or alert anyone, or change the course of events at all, except that he's now presumed dead and primed for a surprise return attack.

I don't really follow: he was killed while attempting to do something (informing Roy) which would have changed the course of events. A sacrifice becomes heroic when it has the right purpose and means, not because of its success. (By "right means" I mean ethically sound means, not effective means). Or is this how it works in D&D?

I don't think Belkar will become a Risen Martyr, but the absurdity of the idea lends a certain appeal to it. Actually, I think it would be the crowning moment of Belkar's chaotic alignment. "Look at me! I fought the system so hard, the system did THIS!"

[littlebum2002]

I don't really follow: he was killed while attempting to do something (informing Roy) which would have changed the course of events. A sacrifice becomes heroic when it has the right purpose and means, not because of its success. (By "right means" I mean ethically sound means, not effective means). Or is this how it works in D&D?

I don't think Belkar will become a Risen Martyr, but the absurdity of the idea lends a certain appeal to it. Actually, I think it would be the crowning moment of Belkar's chaotic alignment. "Look at me! I fought the system so hard, the system did THIS!"

Usually a Heroic Sacrifice involves risking your own life to save the life of another. Belkar was, in fact, trying to get Roy but his main reason for doing so was "trying not to get killed by a vampire".

It takes a pretty big stretch of the imagination to call "trying not to die" a heroic sacrifice.

[Vinyadan]

Usually a Heroic Sacrifice involves risking your own life to save the life of another. Belkar was, in fact, trying to get Roy but his main reason for doing so was "trying not to get killed by a vampire".

Not as I read it. We have no sign he knew he was being followed. Actually, the last two panels of #995 and the first panel of #996 suggest me that he didn't know it. He was looking for the gallery, and he was calling Roy because he was supposed to be in the gallery, and he wanted to reach him to inform him.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Even if we consider it a heroic sacrifice (which I personally don't, but I don't really want to discuss that), it is completely insane to even consider that Belkar could become a Risen Maryr, for once he still is Chaotic evil (see the protection from evil clasp affecting him), becoming a Risen Martyr is not something that everyone can become, you need to be freaking EXALTED good, not Roy or even Elan (arguably the purest Good character in the comic) are exalted. Seriously read what you need to be exalted. Furthermore to become a Risen Marty one must be a martyr, which as per the book "chooses death rather than renouncing her purity and commitment to righteous deeds". Yeah no.... there is no way that he could become a Risen Martyr.

[littlebum2002]

Not as I read it. We have no sign he knew he was being followed. Actually, the last two panels of #995 and the first panel of #996 suggest me that he didn't know it. He was looking for the gallery, and he was calling Roy because he was supposed to be in the gallery, and he wanted to reach him to inform him.

And yet I still don't see how any of that is a "heroic sacrifice". He wasn't killed while risking his life to save another, he was killed while running away. You don't see too many heroes being defined as "running away a lot". And nothing he was doing could reasonably be called a sacrifice, wither.

None of his actions were heroic, none were a sacrifice, and none make him Exalted or a Martyr.


and besides...


there are good opportunities for jokes. Deathless vs undead, for instance.

Rich already did those jokes with the Deathless in the throne room

[War-Wren]

You don't see too many heroes being defined as "running away a lot".

Oh, I dunno... didn't the Order spend most of the first book running away... and some of the second... pretty sure there was some running away in the third too.... :smalltongue:

But I agree, wholeheartedly that Belkar becoming a risen martyr is stretching what changes have happened to the Belkster to the extreme. At best (absolute best!) I would call him Neutral Evil now... and still with a strong taste of Chaos!

Now, if he had thrown himself in the way of the HPoH and sacrificed his life to save the stone priest dude... well, still no, but that would have been more of a sacrifice. Giving up your life to save that of a complete stranger? Admirable. An act of exalted goodness? Yyyyes... but still not really enough to counter act all the murder and such like...

[Peelee]

And yet I still don't see how any of that is a "heroic sacrifice". He wasn't killed while risking his life to save another, he was killed while running away. You don't see too many heroes being defined as "running away a lot". And nothing he was doing could reasonably be called a sacrifice, wither.

None of his actions were heroic, none were a sacrifice, and none make him Exalted or a Martyr.

I'm with littlebum here all the way. Losing a fight isn't a sacrifice by a longshot, and it sure as hell wasn't heroic. Belkar wasn't trying to hold the vampire off, or be a stalwart guardian between the vampire and Roy, or anything else that could be heroic or sacrificial. Dude just lost a fight.

[littlebum2002]

If you want an ACTUAL example of what would make a pretty perfect Risen Martyr, imagine if O-Chul had been killed by Xykon while distracting him when Blackwing was disposing of the Phylactery.

He was heroic: destroying the phylactary would be a HUGE help in saving the world
He would have been a martyr: he would have gladly given his life for it to be destroyed (as the book puts it, he "chooses death rather than renounce his purity and his commitment to righteous deeds")
And he meets the prerequisites for the Nimbus of Light feat: he is a champion of Good and serves only the "purest ideals"

Also from the chapter of martyrdom:

"A character who dies in combat has not automatically made a heroic sacrifice nor is she necesarially a martyr. Both sacrifice and martyrdom require a clear decision on the part of the character, a willing sacrifice in order to achieve a higher purpose"


In other words, the only part of the criteria for Risen Martyr that Belkar fits is his save bonuses and he probably has 9 ranks in some skill.

[Vinyadan]

I guess we see things very differently.

Belkar had heavy suspects about Dorkula not being who he said he was. So he went away alone to check on him. Having found out a lot of very important and possibly world-saving stuff about Dorkula, like the fact that he was possibly starting a vampocalipse and that he represented Hel, he went and tried to inform Roy.

Had he informed Roy, Roy would have immediately informed the priests and gone to kill Dorkula: there's no way he would have allowed vampirization by one of his followers.
More importantly, Hel's vote wouldn't have been cast, and the world would have been safe. Roy didn't know what was at stake, and neither did Belkar. But it is not too far fetched to assume that even Belkar had an idea of what Hel does, and that she would bode nothing well for the living, if she had a chance to vote, especially since Dorkula had taken pains to get there without revealing his new creed. Actually, the little deranged surely understood that the Order had been betrayed with the purpose of sticking a knife in their backs; these backs just turned out to belong to more people than it could be assumed without enough info about the voting.

Of course, Belkar's motives may have been very lowly. It could just have been that he really hates Dorkula and wants him dead. (Had Belkar been fit for the fight, I would have said that he should have helped the cleric, but I am pretty sure he would have been dead meat, even with the upgrades. Even Durkon kept fighting alone against Malack only because he knew Malack could take control of half the party, had he tried to send for them.)

But this "you need to have a meatshield mentality to be a hero" thing really surprises me. Couriers risking their lives are commonly seen as examples of heroic behaviour, and, as I said, success is no prerequisite for being a hero. What would impede Belkar's status as hero are his motives, which we don't really know yet. Personally, I would simply put "he cares about Durkon (and himself)". Durkon's death, being bitten and knowing that Dorkula was lying probably were the only factors impeding Belkar to have a laugh at a dwarven cleric being vamped and high-fiving an evil teammate, like he kinda did with V when he welcomed him to the deep end of the alignment pool.

[Peelee]

You don't need to have a meatshield mentality to be a martyr. But you do have to die for a cause. Roy died trying to stop Xykon from destroying/ruling the world. Durkon died trying to save Belkar. O-Chul was willing to die to give Blackwing time to destroy the phylactery. Each of these was a battle the martyr specifically went into, deliberately entered and stayed in until the end.

Belkar? Dude got sneak attacked, and as soon as he was free, tried to run.

Not seeing the martyrism here. Yeah, he tried to warn Roy. Lots of people die trying to do things that would have turned out good if it worked. Doesn't make 'em all martyrs. And running away isn't dying for a cause.

[littlebum2002]

I guess we see things very differently.

Belkar had heavy suspects about Dorkula not being who he said he was. So he went away alone to check on him. Having found out a lot of very important and possibly world-saving stuff about Dorkula, like the fact that he was possibly starting a vampocalipse and that he represented Hel, he went and tried to inform Roy.

Had he informed Roy, Roy would have immediately informed the priests and gone to kill Dorkula: there's no way he would have allowed vampirization by one of his followers.
More importantly, Hel's vote wouldn't have been cast, and the world would have been safe. Roy didn't know what was at stake, and neither did Belkar. But it is not too far fetched to assume that even Belkar had an idea of what Hel does, and that she would bode nothing well for the living, if she had a chance to vote, especially since Dorkula had taken pains to get there without revealing his new creed. Actually, the little deranged surely understood that the Order had been betrayed with the purpose of sticking a knife in their backs; these backs just turned out to belong to more people than it could be assumed without enough info about the voting.

Of course, Belkar's motives may have been very lowly. It could just have been that he really hates Dorkula and wants him dead. (Had Belkar been fit for the fight, I would have said that he should have helped the cleric, but I am pretty sure he would have been dead meat, even with the upgrades. Even Durkon kept fighting alone against Malack only because he knew Malack could take control of half the party, had he tried to send for them.)

But this "you need to have a meatshield mentality to be a hero" thing really surprises me. Couriers risking their lives are commonly seen as examples of heroic behaviour, and, as I said, success is no prerequisite for being a hero. What would impede Belkar's status as hero are his motives, which we don't really know yet. Personally, I would simply put "he cares about Durkon (and himself)". Durkon's death, being bitten and knowing that Dorkula was lying probably were the only factors impeding Belkar to have a laugh at a dwarven cleric being vamped and high-fiving an evil teammate, like he kinda did with V when he welcomed him to the deep end of the alignment pool.


I totally agree with everything you just said.

I DO think Belkar had the best of intentions. Sure, he wanted to unmask Durkula to prove himself right, but he also honestly felt (rightfully so) that Durkula was bad for the team and then, by extension, bad for the fate of the world.

However, "good intentions" don't mean "hero" or "martyr". Roy, Haley, Durkon and Elan are all in this for the best of intentions, but there are very few examples of any of them making a heroic sacrifice or being a martyr.

Roy jumped on the dragon, knowing that he stood very little chance against Xykon but figuring he had to do what little he could anyway. That's a heroic sacrifice.

Durkon is a questionable one. He had no idea of what he was getting into (for all he knew, Belkar just got hit by a trap or got lost). Once he got into the fight, could he have gone to get the Order? If so, and he decided to sacrifice himself to prevent them from getting killed, then sure it was a heroic sacrifice. If you say no, there's no way Malack would have let him escape alive, and even if he did Malack and Belkar would be long gone by the time he got back with the rest of the Order, then it wasn't a heroic sacrifice, just bad luck.

And V, of all people, could have easily fled Xykon's tower while invisible but instead risked their life to go back for O-Chul. That's a pretty good example, and doesn't have the "meatshield mentality"

Other than these , I can't think of any clear cut examples of a member of the Order purposely, selflessly putting their own life at risk to save the lives of innocents. Sure, they may have had their lives at risk in battle, and sure they had good intentions, but that doesn't mean they reach the very high standards needed for "heroic sacrifice" or "martyr".

[Dusk Eclipse]

Seriously guys, I gave you the definition of Martyrdom used by the Book of Exalted Deeds, no matter how heroic your death is, no matter how many people you save with it, it won't make you a martyr unless you wilfully and knowingly choose to die on the pursuit of the greater (exalted) good rather than compromise. Even if Belkar was a paragon of goodness, knew how to speak celestial and had both nimbus and righteous wrath (the most likely exalted feat he would have) he still wouldn't qualify for Risen Martyr because he didn't choose death. Durkula killed him in a battle yes, but Belkar was in the process of trying to escape! That doesn't count as martyrdom or heroic sacrifice as far as the BoED is concerned.

[Peelee]

Ha! I managed to completely miss that. Kudos, sir.

[littlebum2002]

Seriously guys, I gave you the definition of Martyrdom used by the Book of Exalted Deeds, no matter how heroic your death is, no matter how many people you save with it, it won't make you a martyr unless you wilfully and knowingly choose to die on the pursuit of the greater (exalted) good rather than compromise. Even if Belkar was a paragon of goodness, knew how to speak celestial and had both nimbus and righteous wrath (the most likely exalted feat he would have) he still wouldn't qualify for Risen Martyr because he didn't choose death. Durkula killed him in a battle yes, but Belkar was in the process of trying to escape! That doesn't count as martyrdom or heroic sacrifice as far as the BoED is concerned.

So questions:

What do you think of Roy, O-chul (if he would have died) and V (if they would have died)?

Roy's a smart guy, I think it's safe to say he knew he wasn't coming off that dragon alive.

V had a really good escape ready, and abandoned it for a near-certain death to save O-Chul

And O-chul, especially, even admitted that Xykon would "almost certainly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html)" kill him if he carried out his mission.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So questions:

I'm by no means an expert on the BOED, I don't even like it, but I happened to have it handy.


What do you think of Roy, O-chul (if he would have died) and V (if they would have died)?
Of those three O-Chull was the most likely to be considered for martyrdom.


Roy's a smart guy, I think it's safe to say he knew he wasn't coming off that dragon alive.
Nah, he was fully expecting to beat Xykon and return safely, he tries to survive as proven in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)


V had a really good escape ready, and abandoned it for a near-certain death to save O-Chul
This is a grey area since V is a neutral character, the book doesn't state that you need to be good in order to be a Martyr, but it is in the same chapter as all other Exalted variant rules, but the martyrdom excerpt itself is silent on that matter. Personally I don't think it would count, V doubled back and healed O-Chull because he knew she was completely outmatched by Xykon. Besides I can't recall the exact comic, but I'm pretty sure he asked O-chull what was their plan to escape or something along the lines of that.


And O-chul, especially, even admitted that Xykon would "almost certainly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html)" kill him if he carried out his mission.
If anyone in the comic could become a Martyr as per the BOED, it would definitely be O-chull.

[Vinyadan]

You don't need to have a meatshield mentality to be a martyr. But you do have to die for a cause. Roy died trying to stop Xykon from destroying/ruling the world. Durkon died trying to save Belkar. O-Chul was willing to die to give Blackwing time to destroy the phylactery. Each of these was a battle the martyr specifically went into, deliberately entered and stayed in until the end.

Belkar? Dude got sneak attacked, and as soon as he was free, tried to run.

Not seeing the martyrism here. Yeah, he tried to warn Roy. Lots of people die trying to do things that would have turned out good if it worked. Doesn't make 'em all martyrs. And running away isn't dying for a cause.

D&D is one thing. In D&D terms, you are totally right: Belkar is no martyr. However, from a perspective which isn't anchored to the RAW, being a martyr isn't very immediate. You are supposed to die (of course) and it is possible that you wish to die (whatever the reason), but you have to want to stay alive and put your best effort in this direction, otherwise you don't turn out a martyr, but a narcissist. This is of course a rather complex line, because you want to live, but you have something more important to selflessly live your remaining time (i.e. die) for.

Besides, I argued for him being a hero, not for him being a martyr. And, as I said, running had a purpose, which was informing Roy; informing Roy would have saved people. Running isn't good aesthetics for what I'd like to see a hero doing, granted, but being a hero isn't an aesthetic thing. To be honest, if Belkar had staid and fought and got killed, I would have thought that he wasn't acting like a hero, because he would have thrown his life away in a bout of rage, knowing that he wasn't helping anyone (Roy or Durkon).


[...]

There are some nice points here. Durkon was heroic because he took in consideration sending the cat fetch Roy, but then didn't do it to avoid putting others into danger (whether he could do that is another matter, but the fact that he didn't even try and the reason he gave for it both have weight). Plus, I'd like to add Roy's "I choose myself. Actually, I choose him" speech. That is the closest thing I can think of for a martyr mentality: I am ready to die, although I don't want to, because it's needed for a good purpose (Tarquin must not know about our real mission, because he's evil and who knows what he'd do with the gates). In other words, he accepts death, but not hoping for personal gain or satisfaction.
And then there are the goblin martyrs, who got slaughtered for attending a religious service.

[Pyrous]

Nah, he was fully expecting to beat Xykon and return safely, he tries to survive as proven in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html)


Xykon gave him a chance to call a mulligan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), which he refused. So if he didn't wake up midfall, he would qualify? He tried to survive to keep fighting, not to retreat.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Rules as Written fans in this discussion seem to forget the critical role that Rules of Narrative play when Rich is writing. He gets to bend the rules if the narrative needs it. He's the Creator.

That said, I think the Martyr Belkar is a real stretch, and believe that Rich has a variety of other ways to get Belkar back into the mix that don't take as much effort.

[Peelee]

And then there are the goblin martyrs, who got slaughtered for attending a religious service.
I would hesitate to call them martyrs.
They didn't in the defense of their faith of the Dark One, they just happened to be there at the time. The Azurites didn't attack specifically during a religious service, it just happened to be going on when they charged. Coincidences don't make martyrs.

[Vinyadan]

I would hesitate to call them martyrs.
They didn't in the defense of their faith of the Dark One, they just happened to be there at the time. The Azurites didn't attack specifically during a religious service, it just happened to be going on when they charged. Coincidences don't make martyrs.

I don't have my books with me right now, so I can't remember exactly how things went. If they were killed because the Dark One was their god, then they are martyrs. If they were killed because they were goblins, then they aren't. This is of course a different kind of martyr from, for example, Roy accepting death if need be, and I think going in further detail about them would thread a line too thin with the forum rules.

[multilis]

Many of you are judging Belkar as selfish based on your own bias against him rather than his actual actions. He is "spying" to learn about evil at great risk to himself.

We have already had lots of foreshadowing, such as love gives circumstance bonus. We have seen all the "TV Tropes" of Belkar's love for Miko, his desire to have same alignment in afterlife. Since he couldn't change her, he has to change himself, cheat his way to a lawful good afterlife.

It is sad that you don't know the power of love, not everyone is a "death do us part" like the Greenhilts. For Belkar would do anything for love, but he won't do that. For the sake of Miko and the world, Belkar is willing to sacrifice everything he used to love, if that isn't heroic, I don't know what is!

[Morty]

Well yes, if you ignore the bits that don't fit, it fits.

If the OotS subforum were to have a sub-title, this would be a strong contender.

[Peelee]

If they were killed because the Dark One was their god, then they are martyrs.

We clearly have different opinions on what makes one a martyr. I think it's a much higher standard to be applied. If it's passive, it's not martyrdom. To be a martyr, one must make an active, conscious choice that will almost certainly lead directly to their death, while preserving the ideals that they are being martyred for. Not a single one of those goblins made a conscious choice to die for the Dark One in that battle. And they were not killed because they worshipped the Dark One. This was not a religious holocaust. The stated mission was to eradicate the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and I'd gamble that the rest were killed because goblins are usually evil.

Again, far as I'm concerned, you don't get to be a martyr due to coincidence.

[multilis]

We clearly have different opinions on what makes one a martyr. I think it's a much higher standard to be applied. If it's passive, it's not martyrdom. To be a martyr, one must make an active, conscious choice that will almost certainly lead directly to their death, while preserving the ideals that they are being martyred for. Not a single one of those goblins made a conscious choice to die for the Dark One in that battle. And they were not killed because they worshipped the Dark One. This was not a religious holocaust. The stated mission was to eradicate the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, and I'd gamble that the rest were killed because goblins are usually evil.

Again, far as I'm concerned, you don't get to be a martyr due to coincidence.
Belkar started spying at great risk to himself, not just a coincidence, the vampire already tried to kill him. But this goes far beyond "lead to his death", this goes to sacrifice far greater than that, willing to give up even his prefered afterlife and alignment for the sake of Miko and the world... few of even Martyrs can reach that ideal. The con artist becomes an honest man for love, the evil dude becomes good, rare is one or the other, much rarer is both.

"Sacrificing your not so pleasant life to get into a better afterlife"... is not that high of a standard. You need to go higher.

[Quild]

Wouldn't a Revenant be a better fit?
V almost confirmed their existence in ootsverse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html).

[schmunzel]

... (..)... for once he still is Chaotic evil (see the protection from evil clasp affecting him), ... (..) ...

Im sorry but this just popped randomly as a question in my head.

Does Belkar *think* of himself as evil???
How does seeing himself affect him?
I thought he was somehow sad when dealt with the gnome girl who sold him the clasp and realized that the clasp affected him
( a reaction completely unthinkable a few years past )
sch

[Vinyadan]

Im sorry but this just popped randomly as a question in my head.

Does Belkar *think* of himself as evil???
How does seeing himself affect him?
I thought he was somehow sad when dealt with the gnome girl who sold him the clasp and realized that the clasp affected him
( a reaction completely unthinkable a few years past )
sch

We know that people's opinion don't necessarily match alignment. Haley thought she was goodish, rather than good, and that good people left her. The good father figure Elan thinks about is actually chaotic neutral. I think there are other examples somewhere. Miko thought she was lawful, while she said that laws didn't matter (inflated ego) and V thought he was more lawful than Durkon when dealing with his own feelings (inflated ego+tiredness&guilt). Of course, words have multiple meanings, and the world is more complex than the alignment system.

I think that Durkon's death really affected him. There is the page which ends with him saying "hurting people is the only reason you keep me around" or something like that. I think there may have been some sort of comparison he was making between himself and Durkon, since he just saw why they kept Durkon around.

Maybe he sort of wants to be more Durkon-y? but the clasp forces him to realize that he ain't no Durkon. I don't think he wants to be good, I think it irks him that Durkon wasn't evil and he is. But this may be extrapolating too much.

[Keltest]

As far as Martyrdom and death go, you need to go into the task acknowledging the non-trivial likelihood for death, and have the ability to back out of it. Volunteering for the first wave of an army, for example, or being the diplomat with enough courage to call out the Evil Overlord on being Evil. Also, you need to die, which would hopefully go without saying. Succeeding at a dangerous task doesn't make you a martyr.

[Lord Stoneheart]

Im sorry but this just popped randomly as a question in my head.

Does Belkar *think* of himself as evil???
How does seeing himself affect him?
I thought he was somehow sad when dealt with the gnome girl who sold him the clasp and realized that the clasp affected him
( a reaction completely unthinkable a few years past )
sch

He almost certainly does. He refers to himself as Chaotic Evil when he talks with the hallucination of Shojo.
Also from a monologue to Mr Scruffy shortly afterwards:

"I can see now that everything I want out of life is right there, waiting for me. I just need to reach out and grab it. Everyone tried so hard to block my path- and in the end all they really did was force me to learn how to climb mountains. All the better from which to pee on them."

Belkar not only sees himself as Evil, he's rather unapologetic about it. Even if he's capable of feeling empathy for some animals, he's still Evil. He may have balked at the gnome merchant giving him a free meal, but that didn't stop him from ripping her off by taking a functioning clasp for half price because she was convinced that it was broken.

[dtilque]

You don't see too many heroes being defined as "running away a lot".

Brave Sir Robin...



Roy jumped on the dragon, ...

Durkon is a questionable one. ...

And V, of all people, could have easily fled Xykon's tower ...

Other than these , I can't think of any clear cut examples of a member of the Order purposely, selflessly putting their own life at risk to save the lives of innocents. Sure, they may have had their lives at risk in battle, and sure they had good intentions, but that doesn't mean they reach the very high standards needed for "heroic sacrifice" or "martyr".

Haley, coming back down (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0975.html) when Crystal Golem started murdering innocent Tinkertowners.


I don't have my books with me right now, so I can't remember exactly how things went. If they were killed because the Dark One was their god, then they are martyrs. If they were killed because they were goblins, then they aren't. This is of course a different kind of martyr from, for example, Roy accepting death if need be, and I think going in further detail about them would thread a line too thin with the forum rules.

The people in that village were mainly killed because a goblin wearing a crimson cloak lived among them. Someone had foretold that the Azure City gate would be endangered by such a being. The exact wording of the prophesy is unknown, but it apparently does not indicate that there's anything special about the cloak, or else the Saphire Guard would have taken it in addition to killing the wearer. I don't recall where the prophesy is mentioned, but it's not in SoD. At any rate, because of the prophecy, the Saphire Guard seeks out any goblin thus attired and whacks him. And they go to great lengths to do so. The villiage in question was over 1000 miles from Azure City.

[MechaBill]

The other problem with Risen Martyr is that he is, well, risen. As in no longer dead. This flies in the face of the oracle prediction that he would "draw his last breath". Plus an undead Belkar would be really handy to get through the AntiLife shell right now.

Revenant is a better fit, although it is a monster type, not a character class. Sword Wraith could work too.

[Zwiebelchen]

Risen Martyr is out of the question, since we already had that plot with the Sapphire guard.

Using the same plot-device twice would be universally considered bad writing.

[Peelee]

Many of you are judging Belkar as selfish based on your own bias against him rather than his actual actions. He is "spying" to learn about evil at great risk to himself.

We have already had lots of foreshadowing, such as love gives circumstance bonus. We have seen all the "TV Tropes" of Belkar's love for Miko, his desire to have same alignment in afterlife. Since he couldn't change her, he has to change himself, cheat his way to a lawful good afterlife.

It is sad that you don't know the power of love, not everyone is a "death do us part" like the Greenhilts. For Belkar would do anything for love, but he won't do that. For the sake of Miko and the world, Belkar is willing to sacrifice everything he used to love, if that isn't heroic, I don't know what is!


Belkar started spying at great risk to himself, not just a coincidence, the vampire already tried to kill him. But this goes far beyond "lead to his death", this goes to sacrifice far greater than that, willing to give up even his prefered afterlife and alignment for the sake of Miko and the world... few of even Martyrs can reach that ideal. The con artist becomes an honest man for love, the evil dude becomes good, rare is one or the other, much rarer is both.

"Sacrificing your not so pleasant life to get into a better afterlife"... is not that high of a standard. You need to go higher.

I would rebut these if I could even understand half of it. Belkar loves Miko now, and is becoming a better man for her, and in doing so gives up his preferred afterlife?

[Dusk Eclipse]

The other problem with Risen Martyr is that he is, well, risen. As in no longer dead. This flies in the face of the oracle prediction that he would "draw his last breath". Plus an undead Belkar would be really handy to get through the AntiLife shell right now.

Revenant is a better fit, although it is a monster type, not a character class. Sword Wraith could work too.

Risen Martyrs become Deathless at level 1 in the class... though they need to earn that level after returning as a Risen Martyr


Risen Martyr is out of the question, since we already had that plot with the Sapphire guard.

Using the same plot-device twice would be universally considered bad writing.

The Sapphire Guard were most certainly not risen martyrs in the prestige class sense.


I would rebut these if I could even understand half of it. Belkar loves Miko now, and is becoming a better man for her, and in doing so gives up his preferred afterlife?
Pretty sure that he isn't being serious.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I don't really follow: he was killed while attempting to do something (informing Roy) which would have changed the course of events. A sacrifice becomes heroic when it has the right purpose and means, not because of its success. (By "right means" I mean ethically sound means, not effective means). Or is this how it works in D&D?

Belkar took a risk of dying by spying on Durkula, but taking a risk is different from sacrificing yourself. He wouldn't have gone in there to do whatever it takes to stop Durkon's evil plot if he knew that whether he could stop it or not it would end in his death. So even if Belkar had died of falling out of a window, which he didn't until you can show me the corpse, it would not have been a selfless exhalted sacrifice. He just took a risk, the risk turned out bigger than he expected and he got unlucky.

[Synesthesy]

Belkar as a Risen Martyr?

Still a better theory then 'Banjo will save the world'.

[Rakoa]

Risen Martyrs become Deathless at level 1 in the class... though they need to earn that level after returning as a Risen Martyr

Actually, he would rise as a Risen Martyr level 0, which is when the Deathless qualities are obtained.

[Peelee]

Pretty sure that he isn't being serious.

That damnable Poe should never have been given legislative powers.

[KorvinStarmast]

Belkar seems to revel in being CE. See his line to Varsuvius: "welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool, pal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html)" during the soul splicing arc. That sexy shoeless god of war is not shy about who he is.

[MechaBill]

Belkar seems to revel in being CE. See his line to Varsuvius: "welcome to the deep end of the alignment pool, pal" during the soul splicing arc. That sexy shoeless god of war is not shy about who he is.

For that matter the prestige class "God of War" could fit.

1) at least 1 level in Barbarian
2) died at least once
3) non lawful

But it fails at non evil. Still closer than risen martyr though.

[AstralFire]

I don't think the general concept is altogether unreasonable, even if the specific template cited doesn't quite fit. Belkar's obsession with righting the particular wrongs done to Durkon aren't necessarily healthy or even Good, but they are (were?) quickly becoming character-defining and are a distinct rise in nobility for the character. I don't think things will go down this particular route, but the idea that somehow Belkar continues on as a wraith* of sorts propelled by his passion is reasonable.

* Non-mechanical use of 'wraith'.

[Wolvenlight]

Maybe the Belkar with a much higher wisdom score would have been able to qualify as Exalted, but that ship sailed when V dismissed Owl's Wisdom.

[martianmister]

Many of you are judging Belkar as selfish based on your own bias against him rather than his actual actions. He is "spying" to learn about evil at great risk to himself.

We have already had lots of foreshadowing, such as love gives circumstance bonus. We have seen all the "TV Tropes" of Belkar's love for Miko, his desire to have same alignment in afterlife. Since he couldn't change her, he has to change himself, cheat his way to a lawful good afterlife.


I think giving up your own life just to be with your love is a selfish reason. He just wants to be LG because of achieving sexual gratification.

[M Placeholder]

We have already had lots of foreshadowing, such as love gives circumstance bonus. We have seen all the "TV Tropes" of Belkar's love for Miko, his desire to have same alignment in afterlife. Since he couldn't change her, he has to change himself, cheat his way to a lawful good afterlife.

It is sad that you don't know the power of love, not everyone is a "death do us part" like the Greenhilts. For Belkar would do anything for love, but he won't do that. For the sake of Miko and the world, Belkar is willing to sacrifice everything he used to love, if that isn't heroic, I don't know what is!

Is this the same Miko that The Belkster gaslighted and tried his hardest to get her to fall? Belkar wanted to make her lose her Paladin powers, and she did big style.

Miko may well have become Lawful Neutral when she fell. Belkar is still evil and if he is dead, then the chances are that if isn't in the Abyss, then he's in Pandemonium with one dagger stuck in a tunnel wall to stop him from being picked up by the wind and having his brains smashed out, and the other dagger drawing doodles on his arms.

And Belkar doing this for Miko? The most vicious and bloodthirsty Halfling this side of Athas, and a fallen Paladin that had few redeeming qualities and whose mount Belkar had sworn to kill. And as for love, its a pretty bad reason for doing all this. After all, Miko has been dead for a long time and Belkar has not talked about her once. Nothing.

[KorvinStarmast]

And Belkar doing this for Miko? The most vicious and bloodthirsty Halfling this side of Athas, and a fallen Paladin that had few redeeming qualities and whose mount Belkar had sworn to kill. And as for love, its a pretty bad reason for doing all this. After all, Miko has been dead for a long time and Belkar has not talked about her once. Nothing. I think he was referring to a TV trope and joke along the lines of "they can't stand each other so they have to end up as a couple" deal.

We have already had lots of foreshadowing, such as love gives circumstance bonus. We have seen all the "TV Tropes" of Belkar's love for Miko, his desire to have same alignment in afterlife. Since he couldn't change her, he has to change himself, cheat his way to a lawful good afterlife. Or even lawful neutral.

[xroads]

Despite his alignment and lack of pre-requisites, Belkar does fit the model of Risen Martyr (Book of Exalted Deeds p. 68) very nicely. He is, after all, on a quest to save the world and has just made his heroic sacrifice. And it's just the sort of trick that Loki would pull, don't you think?

Nahhh. If anything, I'd think Belkar :belkar: has better odds of becoming a revenant. Though I don't currently think he's dead anyways (if only because it seems a bit anti-climatic).

[Zwiebelchen]

For that matter the prestige class "God of War" could fit.

1) at least 1 level in Barbarian
2) died at least once
3) non lawful

But it fails at non evil. Still closer than risen martyr though.

This is ... wait ... this is ... FRIDGE GENIUS!
Think about it (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/God_Of_War_(3.5e_Prestige_Class))!

-> What point would the clasp have if not to display Belkar's shift from CE to CN?
-> It has been long foreshadowed that Belkar's alignment is slowly shifting (due to his morality pet); even he himself recognized it
-> He calls himself "God of War" already
-> The OOTS just so happens to be in the northern god territory right now
-> It's a 3.5e prestige class so it would fit in the campaign
-> It makes sense in context with Belkar dying, as this is the requirement for this prestige class
-> The prestige class' ability "Immortal" would make Belkar immune to level drain effects (while the clasp would protect him from everything else the vampire can throw at him), while "anarchic" weapons would work wonders to overcome the DR of a certain Lawful Evil Vampire
-> It wouldn't even go against the godsmoot rules, since Belkar still acts out of free will and is still technically the guardian of the HPoH. All Odin would have to do was raising him after his death. Which certainly would not qualify as an aggressive move against another highpriest by the rules.

Literally the only thing that wouldn't quite fit into the picture here is that Belkar has no obligation with Odin whatsoever. However, Odin voted "No" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) and could probably offer Belkar a deal in exchange for his life... one that even the Oracle couldn't have seen coming (as it is pratically divine intervention).

Also, think about what the Highpriestess of Odin says on this page: "I see worlds within worlds" ... Is that a reference to the gates? Also, Odin's high priest was the one that just so happened to have the spear that Roy threw in his fight against Durkon (and had the most dialogue of all the highpriests). Coincidence?

[Dr.Zero]

My problem with the Risen Martyr is that it doesn't fit for a lot of points.
With God of War is that
1) it seems to be homebrew (I cannot find an official source book describing this prestige class);
2) as far as I understand, the warrior is risen back to life, so he returns to breath and all, against the prophecy of the oracle.

So, if Belkar is dead and must return from the afterlife, I keep to bet on the revenant. It's not perfect narratively for Belkar, IMO, but it fits technically.

[KorvinStarmast]

against the prophecy of the oracle.
What if Odin doesn't give a rat's behind about that oracle and its prophecy? He's not bound by its utterances.

[axus]

The paladins protecting the throne room didn't succeed while living, but they still came back as ghosts to try and protect what they were sworn to protect. Maybe he'll come back to protect Mr. Scruffy. Not as "Risen Martyr", but something like the paladins did (not breathing).

[Dr.Zero]

What if Odin doesn't give a rat's behind about that oracle and its prophecy? He's not bound by its utterances.

That it would be the cheapest literal deus ex machina ever. EVER!
Even if you'd throw in a free coffee maker. EVEN IF it does espresso!

[Peelee]

He's not bound by its utterances.

Oh? At what point did prophecies in this story start being mutable?

[Zwiebelchen]

That it would be the cheapest literal deus ex machina ever. EVER!
Even if you'd throw in a free coffee maker. EVEN IF it does espresso!
You say that as if *anything* a god does to interfere with the mortal plane is *not* Deus Ex Machina, translated "God in the machine". Like, literally; gods are per se Deus Ex Machina.

Also, I doubt that the Oracle can foresee the actions of gods, especially if they are an emergency reaction.
Odin probably predicted the vote result of the godsmoot. What he couldn't predict, howeder, was Hel's presence there with a highpriest. So basicly this could have been a "shed, let's improvise!" reaction. Given that he is, uh, kinda the god of magic an trickery, he probably knew about the guardian loophole. Roy is no option, as he is still alive and in the center of attention. And then the second guardian of the HpoH just so happens to present a nice opportunity by dying...

I wouldn't say that this is "Deus Ex Machina". It makes sense and in retrospective it would be easy to find foreshadowing for this.

But yes; that it is a homebrew prestige class kind of kills the possibility, even if it would be a beautiful brick joke (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke).

[Dr.Zero]

You say that as if *anything* a god does to interfere with the mortal plane is *not* Deus Ex Machina, translated "God in the machine". Like, literally; gods are per se Deus Ex Machina.

Also, I doubt that the Oracle can foresee the actions of gods, especially if they are an emergency reaction.
Odin probably predicted the vote result of the godsmoot. What he couldn't predict, howeder, was Hel's presence there with a highpriest. So basicly this could have been a "shed, let's improvise!" reaction. Given that he is, uh, kinda the god of magic an trickery, he probably knew about the guardian loophole. Roy is no option, as he is still alive and in the center of attention. And then the second guardian of the HpoH just so happens to present a nice opportunity by dying...

I wouldn't say that this is "Deus Ex Machina". It makes sense and in retrospective it would be easy to find foreshadowing for this.

But yes; that it is a homebrew prestige class kind of kills the possibility, even if it would be a beautiful brick joke (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke).

I hope that the joke in my previous statement related to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html) hasn't go unnoticed. :)


Said that, there is quite a difference between a story where gods do their godly things, and a story where they resolve critical plot points which were stated -or at least consistently shown- to have otherwise no easy solution.

In the first case, they are part of the story and part of the setting, their interventions are not "Deus ex machina", even if, by absurd, they would descend upon earth by a mechanical crane. In the second case, they are the "Deus ex machina" trope.

So, DnD has gods in its setting: they give quests, they give powers and so on. This is part of the setting. No more and no less that the mysterious X-gene which gives superpowers in marvel comics.
They are not deus ex machina, as long as they don't start to help to solve critical plot points.

The difference? The difference is that a deus ex machina makes all the drama and the story worthless.

The oracle says a thing. The readers have been shown that the oracle never fails. A lot of drama and work is based on that, but then a god/mage/alien/power_that_be makes it different.
The gates are in danger? The heroes have failed and no one can save them? Well, a god destroys Xykon and teleports all of his paladin/clerics to the gate to secure it. End of the story.
All the drama loses its meaning.
These two are examples of deus ex machina. :)

And last, but not least, about the relation between oracles, fate and gods often in classical drama and mythology not even gods can cheat fate. :)

Example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirai

Depending on the source they were subjected only to Zeus, the most powerful of gods, embodiment of law and order, or totally independent and not even Zeus could influence fate.
The reason of this independence? Very likely because it made for better stories. ;)

[lenon3579]

Hey

The Prophecy states very clearly that he will DIE. Yeah.

It says nothing about he STAYING DEAD afterwards.

:::

"last breath" is an allegoric description of someone "croacking", that last moments of one's life. One can't extrapolate from that to signify "he will never breath afterwards".

So, Odin could do that and still the Oracle's prophecy would have been fulfilled.

:::

Yes, he is Sexy.
Certainly he is Shoeless
And now, a GOD OF WAR in some form of true sense.

:::

Ok, there is still the fact that this class is only a homebrew stub.

[Dr.Zero]

The Prophecy states very clearly that he will DIE. Yeah.

It says nothing about he STAYING DEAD afterwards.

:::

"last breath" is an allegoric description of someone "croacking", that last moments of one's life. One can't extrapolate from that to signify "he will never breath afterwards".


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

It says: "last breath -ever-"

So yeah, saying that "he will never breath afterwards" seems not an extrapolation at all, but more a changing of words to express the same condition. :)

Anyway no one said he will stay dead. Some think he will turn undead, really. :)

[lenon3579]

It says: "last breath -ever-"



Oh. Right. So, no God of War for him...

(Anyway, what a lame name for a prestige class... wouldn't be better if they've gone with the ole good Einherjer?)

:::

Shojo... please... save him.

[Zwiebelchen]

I hope that the joke in my previous statement related to this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html) hasn't go unnoticed. :)

Hah! Touché, pal!


Ok, there is still the fact that this class is only a homebrew stub.
Yeah, unfortunately that makes all the theorycrafting about it irrelevant. It's definitely not our solution.

It's a shame. Think of all the perfectly good gags (and crowning moments of awesome) this could create...


Imagine this in the typical trailer voice with black fades and drum sounds after each line:
"He is sexy ...
He is shoeless ...
He is here to kick ass and not chew any bubblegum ..."
A slow pan-up from Belkar's naked feet to his head... and yeah, that's not a very long pan...
"Missed me, bitches?"
Dramatic music cues. Fighting scenes are shown.
Fade-Out.
Durkula is shown lying on the floor.
"Who are you?"
- "Kratos... I mean... The Belkster."
Drum-rhythm.
Followed by the God of War logo.

[Jasdoif]

A big problem I see with Belkar being a Risen Martyr is that he isn't risen. He's fallen.

Off a mountain.

[Vinyadan]

A big problem I see with Belkar being a Risen Martyr is that he isn't risen. He's fallen.

Off a mountain.

Isn't there a Fallen Mountaineer class yet?

[littlebum2002]

Belkar is going to unexpectedly run into a group of hippopotamuses (hippopotami?), defeat one, then take the Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu feat which allows him to control the rest and he'll show up with an army of hippopotamuses and destroy the vampires.

[Jasdoif]

Isn't there a Fallen Mountaineer class yet?Well, possibly, but gaining the ability to use feather fall as a spell-like ability is more in line with a feat than a prestige class.


Belkar is going to unexpectedly run into a group of hippopotamuses (hippopotami?), defeat one, then take the Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu feat which allows him to control the rest and he'll show up with an army of hippopotamuses and destroy the vampires.The classical problem with Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu applies: The feat requires defeating a hippopotamus in single combat. If any of the group comes to the aid of whichever one Belkar attacks first, it's no longer single combat, Belkar doesn't meet the requirement for the feat, and can't use it.

(I suppose the feat requiring a specific patron goddess that may not even exist in OotS-world, that Belkar would need to have turn/rebuke undead as a level 16 cleric to command hippopotami, and being to able to turn/rebuke undead as a level 16 cleric would let him control a max of two hippopotamus; may also be problems...but they're not as amusing as imagining Belkar trying to restrain the rest of the herd while he's fighting a hippopotamus.)

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Isn't there a Fallen Mountaineer class yet?

Prerequisites: Died by falling off a mountain, at least 10 ranks in the Climb(Str) skill.
Abiities: First level: You lose all your ranks in Climb(Str). You now hate mountains.

[keybounce]

Prerequisites: Died by falling off a mountain, at least 10 ranks in the Climb(Str) skill.
Abiities: First level: You lose all your ranks in Climb(Str). You now hate mountains.

For some reason, this makes me think ...

BR1 - Fallen Mountaineer
Enchant Creature

Target creature gains black as an additional color, and loses any red color it may already have.
Target creature gains +2/+2 when blocking or blocked by a red creature

[Vinyadan]

For some reason, this makes me think ...

BR1 - Fallen Mountaineer
Enchant Creature

Target creature gains black as an additional color, and loses any red color it may already have.
Target creature gains +2/+2 when blocking or blocked by a red creature

You need to explain me this :P is it Magic?