The Nihilurge - "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places."

[Ethereal Gears]

The quote in the thread title is attributed to H.P. Lovecraft, whose bleak "cosmicist" philosophy inspired the creation of the nihilurge, a new PF base class I've created. Those familiar with my shadewright (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8e09cD4OAF3QU9pRklsakpOOVU&usp=sharing) class will recognize the nihilurge as partly an expansion of the world deformer archetype I created for that class. The nihilurge has no ties to the Shadow Plane, however, drawing instead on the powers of the void to warp reality, birth abominations from inanimate matter and mutate the flesh of both her allies and foes. Deity-defying, madness-courting and quite vile, the nihilurge is my idea of a proper cosmic horror-themed base class! I hope y'all enjoy.

The Nihilurge Files (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8e09cD4OAF3RFJZZ2ZTUzVKR2c&usp=sharing)

The link above contains a Google Drive folder, wherein can be found the main nihilurge document and the document containing the class' selectable abilities, called anomalies. If changes and expansions are made to the class, these will be reflected in the contents of the above URL, which I will continuously update.

Cheers,
- Gears

EDIT: Just as a note, a few things are not included in the documents posted above because I haven't had time to get around to them. Expect to see feats such as Extra Anomaly, Extra Void Pool and Extra Evolutions Known appearing in the main nihilurge document, as well as a few alternate favored class bonuses available to all nihilurges regardless of race.

[Ethereal Gears]

Alright. So, I'm giving the nihilurge a small bump accompanied by two updates.

First of all, I've added the following to the main nihilurge document, granting them access to a few feats and alternate favored class bonus options:

New Feats

The following new feats are available to nihilurges:

Extra Anomaly

You gain an additional anomaly.
Prerequisites: Anomaly class feature.
Benefit: You gain one additional nihilurge anomaly whose prerequisites you meet.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, granting you a new nihilurge anomaly each time you gain this feat.

Extra Evolutions Known

You have learned additional evolutions.
Prerequisites: Warp flesh class feature.
Benefit: You gain three additional eidolon evolutions known which you can grant to creatures via your warp flesh ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, granting you three additional eidolon evolutions known each time you gain this feat.

Extra Void Pool
The size of your void pool expands.
Prerequisites: Void pool class feature.
Benefit: You add 2 points to your void pool.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Alternate Favored Class Bonuses

Regardless of their race, all nihilurges can choose from among the following alternate favored class bonuses:

• Gain 1/6 of a new anomaly.
• Add 1/4 of a point to the nihilurge's void pool.
• Increase the damage dealt and healed by the nihilurge's warp flesh ability by +1/2.
• Gain 1/4 of an additional bonus void point each time the nihilurge's embrace madness ability is used.
• Increase the bonus granted by the nihilurge's nihilism ability by +1/4.
• Gain 1/6 of a new strange knowledge skill.
• Increase the bonus granted by the nihilurge's void lore ability by +1/2.

The Google Drive doc has been updated to reflect these additions.

Secondly, I've created a new anomaly, but I am unsure of whether it warrants inclusion in the class or not. Anyone who reads through the class could take a gander at this one and say whether they think it's something the nihilurge needs or not:

Void-Fleshed (Ex)

For each class level she possesses, the nihilurge may add 1 point of her Charisma modifier as a bonus on all Fortitude saves. Beginning at 6th level, by spending 1 void point as a standard action, the nihilurge can infuse her innards with the energies of the void, gaining immunity to massive damage and additional damage from critical hits and attacks that deal precision damage for 1 round per class level. At 12th level, the nihilurge can also gain immunity to physical ability damage, physical ability drain and death effects while benefiting from this ability by spending 1 additional void point to activate its effects.

Well, that's it for now!

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

Ooohhh! 111 views as I type this! :)

Now, while the nihilurge herself obviously believes in nahzing, Lebowski, and your indifference to her existence doesn't move her one way or another, as the poor old girl's creator, I figured I'll just give the thread a second bump, because I would really be interested in hearing any comments about the class.

Cheers,
- Gears

[Dusk Raven]

How did I not notice this until now? No matter. A quote from Lovecraft is all it takes to get me interested! Though what I've heard he was more of an "Anti-Nihilist" than a straight nihilist - believing in the utter indifference of the cosmos, of course, but not really letting it get to you.

Regardless, let's see... oh wow. You certainly believe in good presentation. Even found art and everything. As for the class itself, I gotta say, while it's way late at night and I don't have too much time, even the lowest-level abilities look quite interesting. Always liked Lovecraftian Superpower (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LovecraftianSuperpower) types, and this certainly seems to fit the bill.

Seeing Leng mentioned there reminds me that while browsing a Pathfinder wiki I was a little chilled to find that said plateau was actually in the Pathfinder world. I mean, there was the Shoggoth in the Bestiary, and whatever those things are that inhabited the abyss before the demons came along are pretty Lovecraftian, but still. Considering that my own personal Pathfinder setting takes a turn for the eldritch here and there, this may fit right in. More on that later.

Actually, more on everything later. As I mentioned, I need rest.

[Ethereal Gears]

I'm elated you think the class looks interesting! Also super-happy you enjoy the layout. I tend to devote an inordinate amount of work to making sure my homebrew stuff looks at least somewhat sleek and has appropriate-looking art, so it's always great when someone appreciates it. Also, the idea of "nihilism" is used extremely loosely in regard to this class' flavor. It's definitely in no way intended to be an accurate philosophical representation of that ideology. These gals are called "nihilurges" after all, "void crafters", not "nihilists". Really, the nihilism only extends to "nihilo" meaning "nothing" and being equated with the void, and also the fact that they renounce blessings from above. Obviously atheism and nihilism are not by any stretch synonymous in the real world, but in the context of this class I thought it rather suited their flavor.

Anyway! That got a bit long-winded. I'm psyched you think the class looks promising, at least. Looking forward to hearing what you think of it when you've read it through. :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

I just thought I would share some random musings I've been having regarding expansions for the class. Unless it turns out the nihilurge is an unbalanced, unplayable abomination (as opposed to a balanced, playable abomination) and I have to rewrite it from scratch or something, I've had a few ideas:

1. I think the class' mechanics could equally well fit the flavor of someone channeling the raw power of the Abyss to warp reality, so some kind of demon-themed archetype seems like it could work out really well.

2. While I haven't played 3.5 myself (only Pathfinder), I have heard about this old D&D prestige class called the ur-priest. I'm thinking possibly some sort of archetype based around the flavor of that would also suit the nihilurge quite well.

3. An archetype that loses access to the vile bodies ability and instead bonds with an actual Lovecraftian abomination could be neat. Basically this would be an eidolon with the aberration (extraplanar) type instead of the outsider type, with a few tweaks and custom evolutions. A simple concept, but it feels like a no-brainer for this kind of class. Some people prefer permanent pets to summons, after all. Alternatively this archetype could lose access to warp flesh and become a critter-mancer par excellence.

4. A void channeler archetype that really goes all out with the warp flesh and world warp abilities, eschewing vile bodies. They would be able to warp flesh in radius bursts or as cones or lines or ray attack and similar. Basically a far more directly offensive-focused archetype.

Anyway, I just wanted to share that. I may start work on some of these if there's any interest in them. I would love any comments on these ideas as well as the main class itself.

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

Alright, so one more bump for the nihilurge to push her up past all the spam posts!

[Dusk Raven]

My apologies, I've kept getting sidetracked these past few days, but I shall immediately set upon the PDF! Now, I shall record my thoughts as I read.

First impressions: I've wanted a rather Lovecraftian class for some time, and I'm glad to see this class taking heartily to the concept from the start. Also, glancing down I see some stuff on an anti-divine tangent - hilariously, this class would work perfectly with a campaign setting I recently thought up. I do recommend you put a sub-section that lists what abilities are important - that's usually one of the first things I look at when looking at a class.

All right, to the crunch. Ah, Anomalies! Such a good name. I usually use it in the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. sense, but this works well too. I... will save that list for the end. Meanwhile, Void Points look nice, but then again anything non-Vancian does to me. This class goes further than the 3.5e Warlock's spell-like abilities and straight into supernatural abilities.

Warp Flesh looks quite nice. I like how it does Acid damage despite not actually being a physical acid (which reminds me of... you know, I think I'm going to have to refrain from comparing stuff to my own work or other works I really like, at least until the end, however positive the comparison may be. Or perhaps footnote them, like so: *) I don't know enough about the DPS progression of all the core classes, expected or otherwise, so I can't comment on whether the raw damage is balanced, but I will say that 2 Charisma damage at level 3 seems a bit early, even if that's not really a problem for most creatures or in most fights with those creatures. Automatic hit but a save? Fair enough, especially since its close range puts the Nihilurge at risk. Reform looks like an interesting form of augmentation (I do love the Eidolon!), while Rejuvenate is an interesting take on healing. I'll have to look up creatures from Leng or the Dark Tapestry later, but perhaps add a few additional creatures to those who don't risk being nauseated, like other Nihilurges or perhaps more generally any creature used to having its form shifted. I may, of course, have to look up the Cleric's healing progression per level. That reminds me: do Reform and Rejuvenate work on undead, constructs, or the like? More generally, "per odd-numbered level" is an unusual but simple and effective way to state things.

World Warp looks interesting. Definitely could see some interesting utilities arising from this... which I'm not very good at thinking of. One phrasing suggestion: I'd list the effects of exceeding your maximum World Warps after listing the "amount active" increases, since it created an odd dissonance in my mind to read "the nihilurge can only have a single world warp active at any one time" and then have that retracted two sentences later.

Embrace Madness! I rather like the concept of "power at a price" and in this case the price is the power. I would, in that vein, state that this ability is unusable by creatures not affected by Wisdom drain for whatever reason. Though in that case they'd only get the bonus void points and not the WIS penalty powers, anyway.

Nihilism... I'm really not in favor of any ability that introduces anti-synergy into a party. This ability basically means a Cleric or Druid would not do as well in the same party, at least when it comes to augmenting or healing the Nihilist. Fitting, perhaps, but I don't really know of a lot of class features in base classes that work against specific friendly abilities. Also, gaining Nihilism at 2nd level means a 1st-level Nihilist can get all the healing she wants. Hmm.

Strange Knowledge: I don't know if Nihilists should have a high INT or not, so I don't know how advantageous using your CHA modifier in place of INT for Knowledge checks would be. I know I tend to see "Knowledge (all, taken individually)" as an open invitation to invest heavily in skill points - and the Nihilist has even more Class skills than, say, the Wizard does, so they might benefit from INT. Anyway, I like the "associated skills" stuff... which I guess cuts down on the need for skill points.

Vile Bodies: While I'm starting to get an overall "evil-oriented" vibe from this class, I do think "vile" is perhaps not the right adjective here. Granted, this is mostly because, thanks to 3.5e, I associate "vile" with utter evil, helped by a homebrew alignment system on these very forums that has "Vile" as a step beyond Evil (with "Exalted" as the corresponding Good extension, of course). Perhaps "Fell" (love that word!) or "Warped" would be more appropriate. Not sure how I feel about plants being susceptible. Aside from plants getting the short stick on these sort of things, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThatPoorPlant) the World Warp ability specifically stated it did not work on water or other liquids. Still, using it on plants would be an interesting ability, but then it would be more an application of Warp Flesh, and possibly have some rather different results, which would be too complicated unless animated plants and objects had rather different traits, or you gained one ability at a later level than the other.

Void Lore: A bit like the 3.5 Archivist's "Dark Knowledge" feature. Well, just the skill bonus. I do love playing monster experts and any ability in any game that lets one identify and analyze enemy abilities. Not much else to say, really.

...Great Shub-Niggurath, this is just up to 2nd level! Well, we're almost done with the class features, so I'll look over Beseech the Void and go over the 20th-level stuff and additional features later. Hmm... well, while Wisdom decrease works for contacting Lovecraftian entities, Wisdom decreases don't really hinder the Nihilist too much, other than limiting the use of Embrace Madness. Wise Nihilists would use this before Embrace Madness and not after. Also, if you're contacting the same planes as the spell it would still be Int/Cha drain, and if it were a different plane altogether it would be a little more limited. Maybe limit the types of planes you can contact to Outer Planes only, specifying that the level of deity represents how far into the void you probe. Also, the whole ability seems a bit powerful and a bit too frequent. Considering an arcane caster could suffer ability decreases for weeks perhaps have the uses per day be uses per week? Also, considering said casters can't cast spells for the duration if they fail, maybe have the Wisdom decrease affect the Nihilist's abilities (which do not specify that you need 10 or more Charisma, in fact), or perhaps some other dire consequence as a result**.

Ergh, need sleep. Yes, still. I will address the ultimate feature as well as Anomalies later. For now, I hope that's some stuff to think about!

*: In an old setting of mine, I tried really hard to think of what "light" and "darkness" damage actually were in terms of their effect on matter. Darkness I envisioned as a corrosive force, while light just made stuff micro-detonate.

**At first I thought, "Maybe something lashes out. Maybe something decides to pay you a visit." Then I was like, "Great, turn it into a Warhammer 40K Psyker, why don't you." Eh, it fits.

[Ethereal Gears]

Thanks for the lengthy reply!

It seems quite obvious you're someone familiar with playing D&D 3.5, something I have never done (only PF); this may be good to keep in mind when reading the class or making references to 3.5. My knowledge of that system is exceedingly spotty.

Anyway, on to the critique itself. It's a bit rambling, and I'm afraid I don't understand all your points, but I'll do my best to address them.

Warp Flesh: Since I stated at the starting paragraph describing this ability that it only affects living creatures, I take it for granted people will understand that this includes all three sub-abilities granted by warp flesh, i.e. both deform, reform and rejuvenate. I honestly don't see any ambiguity in the text.

World Warp: I'm not going to change the wording. It doesn't seem dissonant to me. Differences in style I suppose.

Embrace Madness: I frankly don't quite understand what change you are proposing. Perhaps you could clarify? I seem unable to parse the sentences in this one, sorry.

Strange Knowledge: Right now, nihilurges are completely Cha-based. I was wrestling with whether or not to have their abilities be based on Cha or Int or both, but ultimately settled on Cha. Thus, the purpose of strange knowledge using Cha instead of Int for Knowledge skills is to made them less MAD (no pun intended :P). I think of the nihilurge's Cha focus as being more akin to that of a bard, as opposed to a sorcerer. I.e., they're not viscerally infused with their magic like sorcerers are, but are more like eccentric artists, courting and coaxing the void to gain power and knowledge, in exchange (optionally) for a bit of madness. Anyway, I think I'm going to let this ability remain as it is for now.

Vile Bodies: The name comes from a Latin phrase, "corpus vile", meaning something along the lines of "a thing fit only to be the object of experimentation". It also happens to be the title of a wonderful novel by Evelyn Waugh. So it's not intended as "vile" in the sense of morally evil, but more in the sense of "disgusting". So while I appreciate the worry over connotations of evil, I'm going to keep the title of the ability. As for its ability to affect plants; plants are objects, not creatures, in PF. Plant creatures are a different matter, obviously, but they are not affected by this ability. I wanted this ability to be able to affect plants simply because it can be quite tricky to find suitably sized objects sometimes in the midst of battle, but if trees and shrubs can count as well, it increases the chances of the nihilurge of being able to birth a vile body without needing to drag a bunch of objects around with her for the purposes of animating them. So it's mostly a balance thing, really.

Beseech the void: I must admit I found this critique a bit baffling. This sentence I honestly don't understand:

"Also, if you're contacting the same planes as the spell it would still be Int/Cha drain, and if it were a different plane altogether it would be a little more limited." Could you perhaps clarify?

Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about this ability being too powerful? I mean, at 13th level a medium can use contact other plane at will, albeit only to contact the Astral Plane, but they also automatically succeed on their Int checks to avoid Int/Cha decreases. I suppose I could change it to only allow contacting an Outer Plane (makes sense flavor-wise), and I suppose I could make it so you lose access to beseech the void if you fail your Int check (might change this to a Cha check) and incur Wisdom damage. I really wouldn't say that a Wis decrease is completely harmless to the nihilurge. I mean, wisdom drain sucks. Your will save decreases, and will saves can be horrible to fail. Anyway, I kinda like the idea of something being summoned that you have to fight or similar if you fail your Int check, but it might be a bit too elaborate to include.

I'm saving your nihilism critique for last, because I want to say this about that ability: your concerns are entirely valid. The nihilurge will obviously benefit a lot less from having a divine caster in the party than other characters. Ideally, the nihilurge will prefer traveling with companions where a bard, alchemist or witch fills the healer/buffer role (something all three classes can do admirably with the right archetypes). However, that's not the important point. The important point is there are a few anomalies which can help the nihilurge out. When you get around to checking out the anomalies, I would suggest looking at flexible nihilism and nihilistic healing, both of which help to alleviate the drawbacks of the nihilism ability. I agree this ability is a bit different from the kind of class features Paizo usually creates, and I suppose it might strike some people as slightly extreme, but I definitely don't think it makes the nihilurge unplayable, and it does come with advantages. If anything, I think more classes should have abilities like this. It's so rare in PF for class features to have drawbacks. I like my RPGs high fantasy, for sure, but I also like there being costs to magic. This plus embrace madness was my attempt at creating the sense of such a cost for the nihilurge, and I think it seems balanced thus far, especially when taking the above anomalies into account.

Anyway, again, thanks so much for reading and commenting. It is wildly appreciated! :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

So, in response to Dusk Raven's critique I've now moved some abilities around, changing warp flesh to start dealing ability damage a bit later (5th level), and also altered beseech the void so that it functions like contacting an Outer Plane, which suits the class' flavor a bit more. The nihilurge can now start having multiple world warps active simultaneously a bit earlier, but I don't think that's a massive balance concern. At any rate, the Google Drive link has been updated to reflect these changes.

Also, a completely random bonus note: the "iconic" nihilurge, i.e. the picture on the front page of the main Nihilurge document, is rather how I imagine using the Head Like a Hole anomaly looking, possibly with some creepy warp flesh evolutions added in to make the nihilurge's body look like that. :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Dusk Raven]

Anyway, on to the critique itself. It's a bit rambling, and I'm afraid I don't understand all your points, but I'll do my best to address them.

My apologies, I get like that at time.


Warp Flesh: Since I stated at the starting paragraph describing this ability that it only affects living creatures, I take it for granted people will understand that this includes all three sub-abilities granted by warp flesh, i.e. both deform, reform and rejuvenate. I honestly don't see any ambiguity in the text.

I completely missed that, so that's my fault.


Embrace Madness: I frankly don't quite understand what change you are proposing. Perhaps you could clarify? I seem unable to parse the sentences in this one, sorry.

All right, I'll try and explain. In D&D 3.5, there's a lot of abilities that, say, deal Constitution damage to the user. If you're, say, playing an undead, you would potentially be able to use it all you like for fun and profit, so they specify that you actually need to have a CON score or otherwise be able to take ability damage in order to use that. I don't think there are as many abilities like that in Pathfinder, but I suspect they would have similar caveats. Although I'm not sure what creatures in Pathfinder, other than constructs, are unable to take Wisdom damage...


Vile Bodies: The name comes from a Latin phrase, "corpus vile", meaning something along the lines of "a thing fit only to be the object of experimentation". It also happens to be the title of a wonderful novel by Evelyn Waugh. So it's not intended as "vile" in the sense of morally evil, but more in the sense of "disgusting". So while I appreciate the worry over connotations of evil, I'm going to keep the title of the ability. As for its ability to affect plants; plants are objects, not creatures, in PF. Plant creatures are a different matter, obviously, but they are not affected by this ability. I wanted this ability to be able to affect plants simply because it can be quite tricky to find suitably sized objects sometimes in the midst of battle, but if trees and shrubs can count as well, it increases the chances of the nihilurge of being able to birth a vile body without needing to drag a bunch of objects around with her for the purposes of animating them. So it's mostly a balance thing, really.

While I have no objections to bringing Latin into anything I touch, it seems to me that the "vile" in "corpus vile" means something different than what you're intending. Looking up the meaning on a random Latin-English dictionary, I see the meanings are completely different. That being said, "Vile Bodies" does work, but "vile" does have implications of inherent evil, especially if you've played or read a lot of 3.5, where it is used several times as indicating utter evil (for instance the famous Book of Vile Darkness, both an in-game artifact and an official sourcebook which introduces a number of things including vile damage). I mean, if you describe a person as vile, then that means they're a very, very unpleasant and wicked person.

Anyway. It's perfectly fine to be able to animate plants with that ability, and I support it in terms of mechanics. It just means there's a contradiction with the earlier use of Warp World where it says you can't alter liquids of any sort. Which I'm actually curious about why that's there, to be honest.


Beseech the void: I must admit I found this critique a bit baffling. This sentence I honestly don't understand:

"Also, if you're contacting the same planes as the spell it would still be Int/Cha drain, and if it were a different plane altogether it would be a little more limited." Could you perhaps clarify?

Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about this ability being too powerful? I mean, at 13th level a medium can use contact other plane at will, albeit only to contact the Astral Plane, but they also automatically succeed on their Int checks to avoid Int/Cha decreases. I suppose I could change it to only allow contacting an Outer Plane (makes sense flavor-wise), and I suppose I could make it so you lose access to beseech the void if you fail your Int check (might change this to a Cha check) and incur Wisdom damage. I really wouldn't say that a Wis decrease is completely harmless to the nihilurge. I mean, wisdom drain sucks. Your will save decreases, and will saves can be horrible to fail. Anyway, I kinda like the idea of something being summoned that you have to fight or similar if you fail your Int check, but it might be a bit too elaborate to include.

It's... complicated. It really has to do with what the Nihilist is trying to contact and what effect that has, compared to what everyone else contacts when they use the spell. It's not important.

The mechanics, however... I will say that I am not familiar with the Medium. I would probably say that it's also a little overpowered, at least compared to the Sorcerer/Wizard use of the spell. I mean, if a Nihilist (and apparently, a Medium) loses the decrease, they're slightly inconvenienced but still playable. It just means they can't use Embrace Madness as much. If a Wizard gets his INT decreased to 8? He's almost completely taken out of commission until it wears off. And that's just a discrepency that is off to me. Granted, Contact Other Plane doesn't seem that useful so I don't understand why the whole "spellcasting stat decrease" mechanic is there in the first place, and I'd remove that entirely if I were DM, but when judging the balance of a class I have to deal with Rules As Written.


I'm saving your nihilism critique for last, because I want to say this about that ability: your concerns are entirely valid. The nihilurge will obviously benefit a lot less from having a divine caster in the party than other characters. Ideally, the nihilurge will prefer traveling with companions where a bard, alchemist or witch fills the healer/buffer role (something all three classes can do admirably with the right archetypes). However, that's not the important point. The important point is there are a few anomalies which can help the nihilurge out. When you get around to checking out the anomalies, I would suggest looking at flexible nihilism and nihilistic healing, both of which help to alleviate the drawbacks of the nihilism ability. I agree this ability is a bit different from the kind of class features Paizo usually creates, and I suppose it might strike some people as slightly extreme, but I definitely don't think it makes the nihilurge unplayable, and it does come with advantages. If anything, I think more classes should have abilities like this. It's so rare in PF for class features to have drawbacks. I like my RPGs high fantasy, for sure, but I also like there being costs to magic. This plus embrace madness was my attempt at creating the sense of such a cost for the nihilurge, and I think it seems balanced thus far, especially when taking the above anomalies into account.


I don't think it makes a Nihilist unplayable, but it just means there's an inherent negative party dynamic which is a part of the class, and the fact that you can get around it with Bards, Alchemists, Rogues using wands of Cure Light Wounds, and potions, just makes it weird. I have seen class features like this before, but the ones I can remember are part of PrCs, so the whole party knows ahead of time about that drawback. Also, I still think you should get it at 1st level.



I do still like the class as a whole, and I still need to get around to reading the Anomalies. But I felt bad for not replying so I went and wrote this up. Keep up the good work!

[Ethereal Gears]

I just feel this strangely strong compulsion to point out that the class is not called the nihilist, it's called the nihilurge. Just so we're clear. :)

Anyway!

Regarding Vile Bodies: Calling a person vile would definitely imply they're an evil son of a bitch. But referring to "a vile stench" or "a muddle of vile muck" would have different implications. It's in the latter sense Vile Bodies is intended. They are mindless animated objects, after all, not moral actors.

Regarding Embrace Madness: Now I totally get your point, and it's super-valid. I'll just add a little addendum that you only get the bonus void points if you actually take the Wis damage.

Regarding Beseech the Void: I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. The spell is stupidly written, demanding a crazy high risk (losing access to your main class feature for frickin' weeks!) in exchange for a few answers to questions about lore or to help the plot along. So I like to think of how my ability and the Medium's similar one functions as fixes to a broken, badly-written spell. Anyway, as noted above I have changed it so it always works like contacting an Outer Plane now.

Regarding Nihilism: I really think any further discussion of this class feature needs to wait until you've read the anomalies, because they contain options to balance out its negative aspects. I would just like to stress that, its restrictions aside, it does come with a pretty nice benefit in the form of a not inconsiderable saving throw bonus vs. divine spells. Not as good as one vs. arcane spells would be, of course, but still, I think, potentially very useful. This is just something to keep in mind when reading abilities I've created which mitigate the ability's drawbacks.

Also, don't worry about taking a long time between posts. We all have stuff to do. I'm just happy for any feedback! :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

I just realized I never did address a rather interesting question regarding the world warp ability, namely why it cannot affect liquids.

The idea wasn't that it can't affect any substance that includes moisture. I mean, if we count plants as being "a liquid", then potentially world warp would be unable to affect almost anything, since there's essentially a little bit of water in all kinds of solid substances.

At any rate, the RAI of that part of the world warp rules is that you cannot, say, use this ability to part the Red Sea or similarly alter the shape of a fluid. Since fluids are already by their nature ever-shifting and formless, I just didn't feel like it made sense. That being said, if it's felt that this is unnecessary nitpicking, I hardly think removing the "no liquids" clause would affect the class' power level substantially, and it's not something I'm overly passionate about keeping in, so really, I could imagine going either way with that one.

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

Just a few small small updates. I've clarified that nihilurges immune to confusion cannot use warp flesh as a swift action. In the same vein, I've also clarified that the saving throw bonus granted by embrace madness does not apply to saves against effects created by the nihilurge herself. These two fixes make sure that the risk of becoming confused when using warp flesh as a swift action remains constant, and increases as you use embrace madness.

I think this is thematic and it seems balanced since both swift action warp flesh and embrace madness are quite powerful abilities and there being a bit of anti-synergy between them (forcing you to choose between one and the other, as it were) appears suitable.

In addition, after some discussion on the Paizo boards, I've nerfed the swallowed by the world anomaly to now allow two saves (Fort and Ref) before it insta-kills you. I've also converted the whole class from being Cha-based to being Int-based, which I feel, in the end, suits its flavor more.

I've updated the Google Drive files to reflect these changes.

In other news, I've started work on an Abyss- and demons-themed archetype, tentatively called the World Wounder, which I will hopefully be able to post here before long.

Cheers,
- Gears

[Aergoth]

Gears! How did I not see this!
Because I've been busy chopping the wizard spell list into a fine paste and working on jedi-monks? Probably!
I'll swing by later!
Based on the brief glance though, have you considered having the Nihilism ability eventually expand to spell resistance as well?

[Ethereal Gears]

Way ahead of you, Aergoth! There's already an anomaly that grants SR against divine spells. There's actually anomalies that do all kinds of things to shore up the "weaknesses" of the class, so that if you're really bothered by always having to save against divine spells, there's an anomaly to fix that, at a cost. I'm mentioning this only because the class has a lot of sort of quirky class features, and a lot of these are better understood in the context of the anomalies that influence or affect them.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing what you have to say when you get a chance to look over the full class. Your sage input is always highly appreciated! I'm hoping Xuldarinar and SkipSandwich might be able to take a look at this down the line; you guys were all so helpful and encouraging when I was making the shadewright (as was my buddy KitsuneBoxing). :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Aergoth]

I like it so far, and I think I have to try brewing a thing or two for you.
My initial temptation was to try and bridge this with the shadewright, but I think that gets into the realm of being mechanically too heavy to work with well since both classes have their own little niche mechanics that do much the same thing.

Instead, I'm thinking something like the summoner synthesist (or however you spell that.) and I might have luck with porting an ability from the clone master alchemist, though reduced and influenced by some of the games I've been playing.

Also, would it be interesting to see a version of Warp Flesh but as taken from a similar angle to the Mindchemist? (Might actually work with regards to the

As it stands I've got these for you.

Where is My Mind?

A Nihilurge may turn their command of the void inwards, surrounding their own mind with a thoughtless void of madness. For a number of rounds equal to their wisdom modifier, the Nihilurge is treated as though they were a mindless creature by spells cast by other creatures. In addition, any creature attempting to read the mind of the nihilurge while this effect persists must make a will save or take 2 points of wisdom damage.

A Nihilurge must be at least 10th level to learn this anomaly.

Invoke the Crawling Chaos
You whisper to the darkness and across the void, you call an aspect of the crawling chaos. This anomaly functions as the spell Black Tentacles, except as listed and using the half the Nihilurge's class level as the caster level. Rather than dealing damage to grappeled creature, a creature grappeled by the crawling chaos takes one point of random mental ability damage each turn it remains grappled.

Roll 1d6 to determine which ability takes damage.
1-2: Intelligence
3-4: Wisdom
5-6: Charisma


A Nihilurge must be at least 12th level to learn this anomaly

[Ethereal Gears]

I'm glad you like the nihilurge, Aergoth!

This sentence you wrote:

"Also, would it be interesting to see a version of Warp Flesh but as taken from a similar angle to the Mindchemist? (Might actually work with regards to the "

cuts off midway through, so I'm not sure where you were going with it. If you want an ability to warp a creature's mind rather than their flesh, I would suggest looking at the warp mind anomaly. I'm not sure what you mean by a Mindchemist angle, otherwise? The mindchemist creates cognatogens, which grant mental ability score bonuses in exchange for physical ability damage. I don't really see the nihilurge needing the ability to do that. They can give all kinds of benefits in exchange for a bit of temporary Wis damage via the reform version of warp flesh; I really think that's all they need in terms of buffing abilities. Evolutions are enormously versatile, after all. Anyway, maybe you were talking about something else.

I really don't see any reason to grant this class any of the abilities the shadewright possesses. Considering, as I wrote in the OP, this is basically an expansion of a particular shadewright archetype into a full-blown base class, that just seems convoluted to me. So I definitely agree with you on that score. This class needs more original content, if it needs anything. It already borrows evolutions from summoners, after all.

I like the concept of your two anomaly suggestions, but I'm not sure about the execution. The where is my mind one is cool insofar as I like the idea of going voluntarily mindless somehow via an anomaly and gaining some bonuses from that, but the whole "Wis damage if you try to read my mind" part feels like it's rather stepping on the toes of the Gaze Into the Void anomaly. I'd rather have something focused solely on the mindless part.

The crawling chaos one is neat, idea-wise, but I do again feel that it's a bit gratuitous to have two different anomalies both based on black tentacles, since The Land Writhes is already a preexisting anomaly. I'm all for an offensive anomaly that inflicts randomly determined mental ability damage, and I totally get wanting a Nyarlathotep-themed ability. I just think it could be attacked from another angle.

Those are my notes for now. Really appreciate the input!

Cheers,
- Gears

[Aergoth]

To tell the truth I cannot remember what my initial idea was with the mindchemist angle other than that it might work with the clone master concept.

I apologize for missing those existing anomalies, I didn't look quite as hard as I had at the main class.

So Redux!

Where is My Mind

A Nihilurge may turn their command of the void inwards, surrounding their own mind with a thoughtless void of madness. For a number of rounds equal to their wisdom modifier, the Nihilurge is treated as though they were a mindless creature by spells cast by other creatures. A Nihilurge is not considered a valid target for mind-affecting spells or abilities unless they could also affect mindless creatures. In the event that a Nihilurge can be targeted by this ability they gain an a bonus to their saving throw equal to their Int modifier.

A Nihilurge must be at least 10th level to learn this anomaly and must already know the Gaze Into The Void anomaly.

Invoke the Crawling Chaos

A Nihilurge may instead of animating a single creature with their vile bodies ability animate a section of ground or plantlife as a swarm. This emulates the effect of a summon swarm spell, except that the swarm cannot be affected by a dismissal or similar effect, and is treated as an aberration (augmented construct) with all the normal benefits of a vile body. A Nihilurge's swarm deals mental damage as a poison (DC as a Nihilurge's Anomaly) the type of which is selected randomly. Roll 1d6 to determine which ability takes damage.

1-2: Intelligence
3-4: Wisdom
5-6: Charisma

A swarm does not benefit from the effects of warp flesh. A Nihilurge's swarm does not increase in size like a normal vile body. Instead, a Nihilurge can summon an additional swarm for every two size categories beyond small their vile bodies may reach.

A Nihilurge must be at least 4th level to learn this anomaly.

[Ethereal Gears]

Well! I like Where is My Mind a lot better now. Basing it on Wis creates an interesting anti-synergy with Embrace Madness, although I have to think about whether that works or not. It might be better to just go mindless for a few rounds (Int mod or so) by spending void points. I mean actually going mindless, not just getting the good parts of it, but then balancing that out by granting some kind of awesome added bonus to make up for the fact that you'll basically lose control of your character for a few rounds. I'll see if I can dream up something like that. Otherwise I think your version works too.

I'm afraid your new Crawling Chaos idea is still rather stepping on the toes of a pre-existing anomaly, as it's already possible to summon a vile body that turns into a swarm via the The World Will Crawl anomaly. For that anomaly, I chose to simply apply the Creature Swarm Template from Advanced Bestiary (available on d20pfsrd.com (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/creature-swarm-template)). That template is rather harsh on larger vile bodies, though, since it always transforms a creature into a 10-by-10 swarm regardless of its original size, merely enlarging the size of the swarm's component creatures (which is arguably a downgrade). I may look into modifying that anomaly to allow for your idea (which I like) of creating several swarms out of larger objects or plants. We'll see how it all balances out. There's a lot to consider, since the swarms you gain via The World Will Crawl do benefit from warp flesh. They can thus be granted evolutions and such, although many of these will not be usable because of the Creature Swarm Template. I think I'll have to mull this one over for a bit to figure out how to piece it all together.

That's it for now. Nice work otherwise! :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

Just thought I would share something I've been musing on regarding this class. I've been thinking it might be a bit too generously spangled with Knowledge-based class features, especially considering how utterly SAD the class is. As things stand now, I'm considering either nixing Strange Knowledge altogether or (more likely) changing it into an anomaly that can be selected multiple times. This would make 2nd level a little less jam-packed, and I think it seems like a balanced nerf. Anyone got any feedback on this notion?

Cheers,
- Gears

[Aergoth]

I did notice that it seemed very front-loaded, which is always a difficulty when you're building a class that has selectable class features. Strange Knowledge might make a good anomaly!

[Ethereal Gears]

Yeah, I decided on doing that. Strange Knowledge (retitled "Weird Knowledge" 'cause that sounds more thematic, I think), is now an anomaly selectable at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th level. I also pushed Embrace Madness up to 4th level, since it's hardly a crucial class feature but more of a nice booster ability, sorta like the magus' spell recall ability, which is also gained by that class at 4th level. This makes levels 1-2 less cluttered, and I really don't feel like Strange Knowledge will be missed as a freebie ability, since at each level it was gained before the nihilurge still gets an anomaly anyway. I definitely think this is more balanced. The Google Drive content has been updated to reflect these changes.

I'm still working on polishing up the World Wounder archetype I mentioned above, and then I'll be trying to implement Aergoth's cool anomaly ideas (although I hope I'll be forgiven if I give them a few personal tweaks). I'll post here when those things are finished. Obviously, Aergoth, I won't include modifications of your suggestions unless you like how they turn out and approve of them.

Cheers,
- Gears

[Quarian Rex]

Nice job Gears. It's weirdly exciting to see someone polish up their homebrew to a mirror shine before presenting it. Fancy. I like much of the class, but some bits I like less. In that regard I offer you this PEACH. Just remember that I like what you have done here (I wouldn't be posting otherwise) and I think that I'm helping.




Nihilurge

First off, good name. It evokes a lot of things, all of them interesting. I do think that you built this on the wrong chassis though. It does not have the raw power of a full arcane caster (that is not a criticism) and so does not deserve the penalty of Low BAB and d6 HD. Bump it up to Medium BAB (Rogue/Cleric level) and d8 HD and I think you would be at a better balance point.

Skills seem fine for the direction you are going in. Saves are something you might want to tweak. Adding good Fort seems like a mechanically and thematically sound idea (being a conduit for the Outer Realms changes you in ways that make your flesh less recognizable to the threats of the mortal world) and leave them resembling a kind of Anti-Cleric. Kind of poetic I think.



Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Couple things here. I think that the Nihilurge is a much more close in class than you think. A lot of its capabilities are only effective within charge range of an opponent and they do not have the range of options available to the standard arcane casters to mitigate/nullify that threat. To that end I would strongly suggest bumping up the armor proficiency to a least Medium (perhaps even Heavy) and normal shields. At least with Medium the Nihilurge is only a single proficiency away from embracing a more close in combat position.

For the weapon proficiencies change, "and either a single one-handed firearm or a single kind of crossbow of her choosing", to a single exotic weapon of their choosing. Most campaigns don't include firearms and most crossbows are already simple weapons. Give the player the option to select something interesting and flavourful, like a Mancatcher or a Knuckle Axe, instead of giving every Nihilurge auto-proficiency with a Repeating Crossbow.



Anomaly

I'll get to these in detail in a bit but just let me say that I'm a big fan of these choose-your-own-class-feature type mechanics. Especially when the choices are actually meaningful.



Void Pool

Non-Vancian casting mechanic? I like. The only problem I have here is that you seem to have blended some mechanical design decisions that don't quite work. To clarify, you have taken a secondary resource system (much like the Arcane Pool of a Magus, but closer to the Arcane Reservoir of an Arcanist), something designed to be an interesting supplement to the power of spells, and made it the primary resource system of this class. The problem here is that the size of the Void Pool is still equivalent to the secondary pools of these other classes but you don't seem to value the individual Void Points any higher (ie. every ability costs points and many abilities cost multiple points). Yes, you do have Embrace Madness but that really does not add enough to the Void Pool to alleviate the problem.

The solution lies not in increasing the Void Pool but in increasing the value of the Void Points. Do not require a point cost on all abilities, and when you do spend one make it really worthwhile. Keep that in mind as I PEACH the rest of the Nihilurge's abilities. That will be the perspective that I am coming from.



Warp Flesh

This is one of those situations where you need more bang for your Void Point buck. I would suggest something like having it effect 1 creature within 30ft per 2 class levels (min. 1). These are the bread and butter abilities of the Nihilurge and they need to be worth a little more than they currently are.



Deform

The wording here is suffering from a bit of ambiguity. I cannot tell whether Deform is supposed to be doing (1d6+1)xLevel damage or 1d6+(1xLevel) damage (ie. at 5th level does it do 5d6+5 or 1d6+5 damage?). Clarify and provide a quick example to remove all doubt. Depending on your response here I will have some very different recommendations. Just be aware, this ability needs a zero cost option.

Remove the entire section about nonlethal damage penetrating DR. Making acid damage nonlethal results in nonlethal acid damage, just like how hypothermia results in nonlethal cold damage and heat stroke is nonlethal heat/fire damage. I'll have more to say about this one when I know how much damage it actually does.



Reform

Great ability, I like it, but again it needs a little more, like the suggested multiple targets. Sacrificing half your Void Pool to give the party a short term utility buff is not acceptable. I do think that you could add a single target option that provides enhanced effect. Perhaps adding additional evolutions (+2?) or increasing the duration to hour/level, selecting one option or the other when used on a single target. Note that this would be a side-grade option (not an upgrade) trading breadth of application (targets) for focus (power) and so should not have any additional Void Point cost.



Rejuvenate

I like the ability but it, again, really needs the multi-target option suggested under Warped Flesh. That would put it more on the same level as Channel Energy from the Cleric and further solidifies the warped anti-Cleric theme running through the class. Boost the additional damage healed to be equal to class level instead of 1/2 class level. It's more intuitive and less... insulting? The current progression goes 1d6, 1d6+1, 2d6+1, 2d6+2, etc. like a single point of healing fills in a dead level or something. It just rubs me the wrong way. Besides, the negligible amount of extra healing is easily balanced by the nausea.



World Warp

This is an absolutely beautiful ability. Versatile and allowing for player creativity. Good job. The only problem I have is this...


Because this ability essentially partly unravels the fabric of reality, its effects are susceptible to the wills of other creatures. Any creature within 30 feet of terrain affected by this ability can attempt a Will save (standard anomaly DC) as a full-round action in order to prematurely cancel a world warp's duration and thus instantly reverse its effects.

Now I like the idea of a battle of wills over a flexible reality, I just don't like the idea of everyone knowing that they can do it. This isn't an illusion to be disbelieved, how would a guardsman know that he should spend a round giving himself an aneurysm to close the gaping Void-hole that appeared in the castle wall? I would say that a character would need to make a Knowlege (Planes) check DC 25(?) in order to recognize the similarities between World Warp and the Morphic traits of some planes to realize that the battle of wills is even an option.

This way you don't have to worry about commoners messing with your landscaping but Sages, Wizards, and Clerics have a good chance of screwing your day.

Last thought, some of the wording might suggest that the Nihilurge can continue reshaping the terrain for the duration of the ability. Clarify this. Perhaps change...


Terrain affected by this ability can be reformed as the nihilurge chooses.

... to something like 'Terrain affected by this ability can be reformed as the Nihilurge chooses and is set for the duration once that choice has been made'.

If the intent was to allow further reshaping then maybe have each further change take a Move action. I actually really like the idea of further changes and if that was not the intent, perhaps add it as an Anomaly option. If used as an Anomaly then perhaps add that another creatures Will save to undo the World Warp only resets the area but does not end the duration, allowing a back and forth duel where the very landscape is the battlefield.



Nihilism

This has been discussed before and the ability is a bit of an odd duck, but I like it. It goes well with the whole blessed-with-suck vibe of the class. One recommendation that I would make is to add an Anomaly that applies the effects of Nihilism and any Anomalies derived from it to arcane magic and it's casters. It shouldn't be a base ability but I think it needs to be an option.



Vile Bodies

This is a great take on the Eidolon/pet option and Animated Objects are a very versatile chassis to build off of. There are two things that need to be addressed though. First, Construction Points. They are a key component of Animated Objects and you need a way to add more if needed to achieve whatever weirdness one wants to achieve with Vile Bodies. I would suggest 2 CP for the cost of 1 Void point. I'm obviously not a fan of adding additional costs to these abilities but the optional nature and potential increase in emergency versatility are worth having the option.

Second, you have to address the HD. The HD of Animated Objects scale very poorly at the rate you have given. I would say that the Vile Body should have min. HD of 3/4 Class Levels, adjusting stats accordingly. On average this will only be a boost of a couple of HD at any given time but that will be the difference between an effective minion and costly chaff.



Void Lore

Nice ability that falls into the delving into forbidden knowledge theme. Not much to say.



Embrace Madness

I like this ability, it's thematic, provides nice bonuses, and gives the player a reason to cut loose with a little RP fun. My only problem is that, mechanically, it is a little masochistic, and not in a good way. Lets be fair here. A Nihilurge will always (unless there is a very specific reason not to) take the 10 points of drain. The class is badly starved for Void Points and Divine Grace is one hell of an ability. The problem? He just took a -5 penalty to Will saves (among other things). That penalty probably outweighs the bonus gained, especially at level 4. Having an inherent Will save vulnerability doesn't really fit this class, thematically or mechanically.

Solution? Say that Wisdom drain from this ability does not apply a penalty to Will saves. The class now functionally has Divine Grace (considering the power level of the class I think this is fine) balanced with a niche vulnerability to Wisdom damage (virtually any will put them into a coma).



Beseech the Void

This ability has already been discussed and I think that it's fine as is.



Zeroth Anomaly

Personally I find capstones to be somewhat meaningless as I never play in games that get to 20th level, but these are pretty nice. Thematic and interesting.


And Part 2...



Anomalies

Like I said before, I'm a big fan of selectable class features. A key here is that this is where most of the actual class features are, as opposed to these being supplemental options like an Alchemists Discoveries, or a Rogues Talents. That puts an extra burden on you. Each of these Anomalies need to be worth it. Keep in mind that this is the bias I'm approaching these with.



Aberrant Evolutions

It's an ok option but it is weirdly limited and not worth much more than the Extra Evolutions Known feat. You can do better. Have all these be added as options for evolutions permanently (ie, can be selected normally on odd levels or with a feat) and provide 5 more Evolutions known, selectable from any. The player is blowing off a class feature to slightly expand his buff options. Let it be worth it and don't make him do it multiple times.



Aberration Whisperer

Interesting ability but way too expensive, way too limited, way too restricted and way too late. You are replicating the effects of a feat on an even more niche target group (undead are way more common than aberrations) and then attaching additional limitations onto an already marginal option. Let the effects of the Command Undead/Turn Undead feats apply, as is, just targeting aberration. Drop the cost to 1 Void Point (this ability is potentially useful enough to not be free but Void Points are too precious to warrant more then one). Completely remove the limitations with Vile Body. No one else looses the ability to summon monsters/animate dead/have an animal companion/etc. when they use the feat, a Nihilurge shouldn't either. And, lastly, drop the level requirement on this Anomaly. The feats can be taken at first level and this ability doesn't add anything to the mix that would require a higher level requirement.



Accelerated World Warp

An interesting ability but suffering heavily from Void cost bloat. Seriously, remove all of the Void cost increases for this ability. You are paying a precious Anomaly for the ability to use a single CC ability (that is incapable of inflicting damage or conditions) with slightly greater ease. Yes, at 10th level and above it allows you to use World Warp more than once per round. So what? You still need to pay for it multiple times per round and it doesn't increase the number of World Warps that you can maintain. It provides a useful, if niche, benefit at the cost of an Anomaly. No further costs are required.



Children of the Void

Interesting ability and nice use of a relatively unknown monster. The Darkling Child adaptation seems to be on point and balanced nicely to its Shining brother and the level requirement seems good as well. Only two main suggestions I can make. Mention where the Shining Child is from, just adding '(Pathfinder Bestiary 2)' after the first time you mention it would be enough. The monster is obscure enough that it may not be apparent that it is from a published book instead of from another homebrew. Secondly, remove mention of World Warp from the first sentence. It raises a lot of issues that I don't think you intend. Things like can this ability be used if you already have your max World Warps out? Is a World Warp considered used for the duration of the summoning? Can someone battle-of-wills the World Warp that is allowing the Shining Child to be here and so banish it? Like I said, a lot of annoying questions for the sake af what appears to be a minor amount of flavour text.

Considering the relative power/utility of the Shining Child, and the level that it becomes available, the 2 Void cost seems ok here.



Defy Description

One of those weird little niche abilities that doesn't really have any parallel and so can be powerful in the right situation. Nice. Only thing I would recommend is to disallow alignment subtypes so that Defy Morality doesn't become obsolete.



Defy Gravity

A good and useful ability that is suffering from the Void cost bloat. You are providing a thematically linked series of abilities that, while increasing in general utility, do not make previous options obsolete. Having the Void cost based on application instead of effect would be a much better idea. Levitate, Fly, and Overland Flight should all have a Void Point cost of 1. They all effect a single target (object, creature, or self respectively) and so should not have escalating costs. Reverse Gravity (and its multi-directional counterpart) can effect an entire area and so are justified to have a Void cost of 2. No more. Also, get rid of the level requirement. You already have individual spells gated to specific levels. If a player wants to Levitate 100lbs at level 1, let them. There is no reason to artificially delay it.



Defy Morality

The way you have this worded it is a generally poor option. Currently it only effects an alignment portion that is Neutral. Any non-Neutral alignment component is unaffected. That is uninteresting. Perhaps allow the Nihilurge to shift his alignment up or down each axis one step for the purpose of any effect etc., etc. Let that CE NPC always show as True Neutral to the Paladin. Open up the possibilities.



Defy Mortality

This is one of those abilities that is always restricted to higher levels without any reason at all. Seriously, drop the level requirements. Both of them. The benefits of this ability are pure fluff. Interesting fluff to be sure, but still fluff. Besides, dropping the level requirements opens some very interesting possibilities. Things like having an entire faction of Aristocrats who have a couple of levels of Nihilurge strictly for the longevity. But of course, once they have access to this strange power they might as well keep using it...

The only possible abuse that I can think of with this is if a player wants to start with a Venerable character and use this to get rid of the penalties, something that can only be done with DM permission anyway. And if he does, so what? He just gave up 2 Anomalies for a few mental stat bonuses, bonuses that would be more useful on a more standard caster.

Come to think about it, require it to be level 2. If they are trying to abandon the natural order make them abandon the gods first (via Nihilism).



Disbeliever

This is just a lackluster ability. It is so limited in scope that I don't know if I could ever justify taking it unless the DM was extremely curse happy. Perhaps add that the Nihilurge gets an automatic save vs. every illusion encountered regardless of whether he has any reason to suspect trickery?



Ex Nihilo

This ability is giving me a lot of trouble. The majority of the ability seems completely pointless. You are essentially paying double the cost of World Warp for a World Warp that can be disbelieved and is only a little bit real. Granted, the changes made are to a larger area, last for a longer duration, and can be done if you are floating in the middle of the ocean, but those benefits are negated by the fact that everything is functionally made of tissue paper, including the Vile Body. This is just a bad ability, charging you an anomaly and double Void cost to do something you can already do... but worse.

The only way that I could see this as being remotely viable is if you removed the Void Point cost altogether. At the cost of an Anomaly you can spread a pale shadow of the warping power within the Nihilurge, costing only the time to shape, but none of the power within. Something like that. Use less power, get this lesser effect.



Faithless Blessing

This is one of those abilities that screams for more. As has been discussed previously on the thread, Nihilism is an ability that usually has more drawback than benefit. Granting that "buff", even with the addition of a minor niche damage boost, at the ridiculous cost of 2 Void Points is not worth an Anomaly pick. But it could be.

Synergize this puppy. Have the target benefit from all Anomalies derived from Nihilism that don't have a Void Point cost. Allow investment in those Nihilism Anomalies to be of extra value here. Remove the cost and duration from the ability. Let this be a pact between the Nihilurge and his faithless acolyte, to last as long as the Nihilurge has use of it. And lastly, give it a benefit when there aren't any Clerics around. Let the blessing grant a +2 Profane bonus to a single ability score, much like the Profane Gift of a Succubus.

Expand on this even. Say that this Anomaly can be selected multiple times and that each time it is selected you can maintain your Faithless Blessing on another individual and the Profane bonus for all recipients increases by another +2. Now you force the player into making interesting choices. I like that.

P.S. I came back to this after reviewing Permanent Warps. Use investment here. Say that any uses of Reform on those with a Faithless Blessing can have the Void Point invested as per Permanent Warps, staying till withdrawn.



Flesh Drain

The utility of this ability depends highly on the damage output of Deform. Either way, the Anomaly and action cost are enough to remove the need for additional Void Point costs. If you agreed with me on adding multiple targets to the Warp Flesh abilities then saying that the Deform use of this ability effects only a single target and the Rejuvenate effects only self is a good trade. 4th level seems like an ok time for a leach type ability.



Flexible Nihilism

I actually think that this should be a base ability of the class. Forcing a player to spend a precious Anomaly on something so boring yet usually necessary as this is a little dirty. For shame. For the love of jebus, get rid of the limitation for True Nihilism. It's benefits are not so great that they should be so easily negated.



Gaze Into the Void

This is one of those flavourful niche options that is almost useful. Two things need to be done. First, make it Will save for half, not Will save to negate. If someone is stepping into your brain-space, don't let them get away unscathed. Next, let the ability damage stand as actual ability damage. Don't make it all magically disappear the next morning, let them crawl back from the brink of madness (or pay a Cleric for Restoration) like anyone else.

You are making the Nihilurge pay an Anomaly and an Immediate action (meaning this can only be effective against one aggressor per round) and does not provide any protection against the offensive mind-affecting effect. This Anomaly isn't denying the opponent victory, just making sure that it will be a costly one. Let it be costly.



Get Thee Behind Me

Another niche ability that will be very campaign dependent. Both abilities are too costly though. Dismissal should have a cost of 1 Void Point, no more. Banishment is vaguely justified at being 2 but only because it otherwise makes Dismissal completely obsolete.



Gift of Madness

An interesting and versatile ability. The only recommendation I can make is to allow it to be selected multiple times with the effects stacking (of course). I think that can lead to an interesting and viable playstyle.



God Is a Number You Cannot Count to

I quite like this. It's a unique ability and its permanent nature justifies the point cost.



Greater Reforming

A great ability that is burdened with unnecessary additional Void Costs. You have a cost with the Anomaly selection. You have a balancing cost with the increasing Wis penalties. Leave it at that. Nothing else is needed.



Head Like a Hole

This. This is one hell of an Anomaly. You are juggling a lot of balls here, a lot of powerful effects. Paralysis, blindness, frighten level fear effects, Gaze attacks... but it all seems to work. The high cost, limited range, and limited duration of effect seem to balance nicely with the severity of the conditions applied and duration of the abilities' utility. And to top it off you provided it with a pretty damn cool visual. Nice job man, nice job.



Living Being

This is one of those abilities that sounds a lot cooler than it actually is. Essentially, you hemorrhage out 3 Void Points to buff an enemy for 1 round per level on the hope that on one out of every four of those rounds you can direct his actions. Oh, but he gets a Will save to negate your control on any of those rounds. See? Just disappointing.

What to do? How about keep the base cost of 2 Void Points but just make it worth it? Make it a Dominate Monster with a Fort save (specify that it is not mind-affecting) with a duration of 1 round per level. You are not controlling their mind, you are turning them into a Living Being and that Being is doing as you bid, yet is difficult to maintain. Give the Living Being an automatic number of Evolutions equal to the Nihilurges' Int bonus, paying an extra Void Point to add Reform as per Vile Body if you so wish. There should be a reason why a Living Being is far more horrifying than a mere Vile Body. Make it so that a single creature can only be the embodiment of a Living Being once per day so this kind of control can't be chained.

Seems like a pretty potent option. Want to make it real interesting? Say that when the Living Being's duration expires the creature regains their will but their body doesn't revert till one round later. They have one round of vengeance, and they remember everything. Doesn't that sound like fun?



Nihilistic Dispel

Expected and useful. The pathfinder version of Dispel Magic is great for this kind of thing.



Nihilistic Healing

This is a good ability, but again, you seem to be grossly undervaluing Void Points. Even among divine casters Healing spells are considered to be low value and used as a last resort. Expecting a Nihilurge to hemorrhage 1/4 to 1/2 of their base Void Points on a single low priority/low utility spell is downright criminal. They should just cost 1 Void Point per spell but I have a feeling that I'm not going to be able to pull you that far away from the original values. How about 1 Void Point cost for spells level 1-3, a cost of 2 for levels 4-6, and 3 points for 7-9? Escalation of cost without the Nihilurge needing to poop blood just to regrow another PCs leg.

And remove the limitations. Again, healing spells are a sub-optimal way to spend ones power, though useful after everything has already gone sideways. If a Nihilurge wants to spend all of his Void Points at first level replicating Cure Light Wounds, let him. I guarantee you that balance will not be broken.



Nihilistic Resistance

PC spell resistance has always seemed like a waste to me. It always gives you 50/50 odds against an even leveled opponent before taking into account feats or casting modifier so in reality it only provides protection 1/4 to 1/3 of the time. Even less against anything higher level. And this ability is no different. Except that it only protects against divine spells. And so is only about 1/3 as useful as normal SR. This isn't really your fault, it is just a niche application or a subpar defensive option. If I were you I would probably boost it up to SR 15+Level to make it vaguely worthwhile but that is really your call. Anyone looking for SR should know what they're getting into.



Parasitize Limb

This is one of those abilities that seems to have a lot of unrealized potential. The problem here is that you have multiple saves requiring a constant action upkeep from the Nihilurge for extremely short duration effects during an extremely short duration of opportunity. I don't think it would take too much to turn this ability around. I have a couple of ideas and I think that they can work together.

First, make that initial Fort save count for something. Right now it does nothing, it permits you the great privilege of spending even more actions to let the target make even more saves. Say that when the Fort save is failed the chosen extremity is infected with a parasite that goes Aggressive, imposing a -4 to Will saves to resist control but the Aggression makes the parasite die in 1 round per class level. During the time of Aggression the parasite can be seen bulging through/over the targets skin (like that guy with the bow from Princess Mononoke) as it fights the target for control.

Oh, and when the Fort save is failed the Nihilurge can choose for the parasite not to go Aggressive, instead he can make it go Deep. A Deep parasite does not show any outward sign of infestation and so has more difficulty exerting influence over the host (it provides no additional penalty to Will saves vs control) but it can stay with the host indefinitely unless removed with a Remove Disease or Heal spell (or equivalent).

Same basic mechanics but now it's interesting. Consider it.



Permanent Warps

This is an absolutely beautiful Anomaly. The investiture system works perfectly and is an elegant solution for the Nihilurges Void Pool limitations. The only fault I can find is that it is available far too late. Seriously, it offers no new capabilities, it merely allows the Nihilurge to keep doing landscaping when on the move and keep his pet out. This should be available at level 1. For the love of the babby jebus let this be available right away.



Shroud of the Void

Good as is. I've seen similar abilities before but this is a fine Anomaly option. Good progression of options, worthwhile duration of effect, and the costs seem to be on point.



Star Seer

Flavourful ability that has niche utility. Costs seem good for out of combat utility. Considering the starlight access limitation I might suggest lowering the level requirement to a level less that equivalent Wizard spell access (eg. initial access at 4th, Scrying at 6th, and Greater Scrying at 12th). This is a very limited version of a general utility spell. I don't see a problem with the Nihilurge playing with the trial version for a level before the Wizard unlocks his full version.



Swallowed by the World

Save or Dies (or even Save Twice or Dies) are rare in Pathfinder so the cost and multiple saves, while a little distasteful, are somewhat warranted. There is a problem though. What happens if the target fails the Ref save but passes the Fort save? Perhaps 10d6 damage (they did fail the Ref save) and are Entangled and unable to move till they can make a Str check or Escape Artist roll (standard DC) to escape?



The Reflecting God

I like this one. the potential expenditure of the Void Point is a great touch. Nice.



The World Will Crawl

An interesting Anomaly that adds a potentially useful option. It does really hammer home the need for a min HD regardless of size for the Vile Body (as I suggested above). Larger sizes are so painfully disadvantageous it is not even funny.



The Land Writhes

Good call on using Black Tentacles and Hungry Earth (I didn't even know this spell existed till now). The spells are thematic and useful. Bad call on nerfing the area into the ground. Seriously man, what the hell? 5ft area per odd level? You are killing me here. The base spell covers 44 of those 5ft squares. A Nihilurge would need to be 87th level before he could cover the same area as the base spell. Do not fear the Tentacles, embrace the Tentacles.

The best option here is to just have either spell apply to the entire area of that instance of World Warp. At 8th level that only covers 32 of the 5ft squares but will catch up with the spell by 11th level. After that it gets better than the spell but even by 20th level it is still less than half as effective as a Widened version of either spell (80 squares for the 20th level Nihilurge vs. 172 squares for a 13th level Wizard). Sure, the Nihilurge gets the benefit of being able to deform the terrain for longer periods of time and put tentacles on it, but that is just the perk of being a hyper-focused specialist (compared to a normal caster). I would even suggest buffing the spells a little bit. Say that the Nihilurge can add his Int bonus to the CMB and CMD of both spells. A Nihilurge who selects this is going to be using it as part of his primary schtick for most of the rest of his career. Steps should be taken to maintain its viability latter on.



There Are No Gods Where I Am

This is a situationally potent ability but it is only useful on a small range of targets, has a small duration, targets a divine casters' very bestest save (Will+Wis bonus), and the Nihilurge only gets one shot at this in 24hrs. Drop the cost to 1. This is a hail-mary pass, awesome if it works, but it probably won't and you only get one chance. Hell, drop the level requirement to 4th. Still serves the same purpose, still has about the same chances and really sells any in-game animosity divine organizations have for Nihilurges.



Transdimensional Sojourn

Nice ability, but again with the Void Point bloat. Are you teleporting around your world? Costs 1 Void Point, even when you get better at it. Are you going to another planet or plane of existence? Costs 2 Void Points for the extra effort.



True Nihilism

The real benefit here is the save bonus vs almost all outsiders but the value of that is highly campaign dependent, and even then this is an anomaly pick being 'wasted' on letting a limited save bonus be applied to a couple more niche things.

With a name like True Nihilism this would be the perfect place to rework the Anomaly. Make this into something that applies Nihilism and associated Anomalies to Arcane magic (and Dragons/Golems?). Give the Nihilurge the option to abandon all power but the Void in exchange for increased resistance/Nihilism utility. Go through the Anomalies and add a [Nihilism] tag so it is crystal clear exactly what would be affected. Roll the existing True Nihilism effects into the base Nihilism ability. That would be a hell of a lot more interesting.



Unform

This is a moderately useful debuff that is nerfed so heavily that it isn't really worth using in combat let alone spending an Anomaly pick on. First of all, staggered isn't much of a debuff. It doesn't prevent to target from acting or moving (or provide a penalty to doing so), just from doing both at once. Giving a save every round vs this mild debuff removes most of the utility it might have. Having a successful save end the effect? Why even bother casting it?

Wait. I didn't realize this can do damage on first reading. Well, that doesn't change my assessment of the effect and duration, the only question is how much turning Deform into a DoT is worth. Currently I'm not sure how much damage Deform actually does so final judgement on this Anomaly will have to wait. One thing that needs to be changed is the successful save ending the effect. If you give the target multiple opportunities to avoid the effect, you at least need to leave continuing opportunities to actually be effective. Will come back to this another time.



Unrealize

This is a weird little power. Potentially interesting but with a weird way to apply it and of initially negligible utility. First of all, the initial 10% unreality is virtually useless. Just start it off at 20% so the debuff can actually be noticeable and have it max out at 50% at 16th level so that it can actually be used at full utility before the campaign ends. Next, you need to specify slightly better ways to utilize the debuff. Specify that the Nihilurge doesn't need to save to realize that his target isn't fully real. Let the Nihilurge announce that the target is a shadow of itself so all those nearby get an immediate additional save to see the unreality.



Unwinged Angels

This is a cool ability and I like that you went with a semi-permanent effect. Just remove the divine restriction. Not everything in this class has to be about screwing over Clerics and angels. Let the Nihilurge pluck the wings off of a gargoyls. This is an ability where that restriction is completely unnecessary.



Vile Familiar

I've always liked the Tumor Familiar and the ability to customize it via making it a Vile Body is great.



Void Warp

This is a simple change of damage type. Absolutely no need for the increase in Void Point cost. The player would have paid an Anomaly pick for a little versatility in damage output. That is cost enough. Same goes with the force damage. If you think that force damage is a big enough boost that it needs an extra penalty, you have already added that with the lower damage die. Again, no need to bloat the Void Point cost. And remove the level limitations. If the player wants to have variant damage types at the expense of new abilities, let them. Negative damage, or even lowered force damage, aren't bringing anything to the table that would unbalance a lower level game.

Also, your damage listing here is still ambiguous. I can't tell whether it's supposed to be 1d4+(1/2 per class levels) or (1d4+1)/2 per class levels.



Warp the Unliving

This is a great and necessary Anomaly filling a pretty major hole in the Nihilurges base capabilities. I only have two suggestions. First, have it's effects apply to all of Warp Flesh, including Reform. If a Nihilurge feels the need to put tentacles on a zombie, let him put tentacles on a zombie. You know you want to.

Second, drop the level limit. This doesn't give the Nihilurge any new abilities, it only permits him to apply his basic capabilities to more targets (incredibly common targets as well). If a Nihilurge finds himself in an undead heavy campaign this should be an option that he can grab at first or second level.



Warp Mind

I love this Anomaly. It adds a fantastically versatile tool and adds a much needed option for potential subtlety. The problem? You are a bloody miser with it. When you select it you gain access to a single option out of the eleven provided. Cruel. And every time you spend another precious, precious Anomaly pick you only gain access to another 2. Double cruel. Just change it to gain access to 2 options on the initial selection so the Nihilurge can start with a little variety and then add +Int bonus more options per additional Anomaly pick. It still requires multiple selections to get everything but at least the player is getting a satisfying number of options for sacrificing other class features.



Warp Wave

Another ability that is far less useful than it would initially seem. Warpwave itself has a couple of potent offensive effects (as in only two, Petrification and Baleful Polymorph) along with a scattering of ability damage, some short term debuff conditions, and the chance to actually buff the target (with a full Heal spell no less). This is an ability for spreading a little chaos when it doesn't really matter because there is no way to tell if the target will even be subjected to a meaningful penalty. First, drop the cost on this to 1 Void Point. 18 times out of 20 it isn't doing anything worth the cost and 1 out of 20 times the target should be paying you. Next, do with this what I suggested under Warp Flesh, have it effect one target per 2 levels in the 30ft range. If it's going to sow a little chaos, at least let it be shared. Level requirement looks good. While most of the effects are underwhelming it does have a couple of nice ones and 6th is a good time for them to become a slim possibility.



Weird Knowledge

This is a really nice little ability. It's thematic and fits well with the idea of a Nihilurge applying eldritch knowledge to the practical necessities of the messy mortal world. But I hate this as an Anomaly. I really wish that you had left this as a base class feature. This just doesn't feel worthy of an anomaly pick, let alone being an Anomaly sink requiring selection over and over again. If you need to leave this as an Anomaly, let it be a one selection wonder. Say that the Nihilurge gets to select one skill for every odd level (or something like that) instead of every Anomaly pick. Let the skill selections be retroactive as well. This is an interesting ability, but not worth more than a single Anomaly even in its upgraded state.



Where is Your God Now

This is actually a pretty good debuff. Sure it gets multiple saves but at least the target won't be getting away completely unscathed. Unfortunately it only applies to divine targets. And has a ridiculously high Void Point cost. And you only get a single shot at a target per day, whether it's effective or not. Too many limitations for the cost. Drop it to 1 Void point. I just don't think you realize how precious these things are to the Nihilurge. If you are going to spend multiple on something it had really better be worth it. This is not. Not with the current limitations.



World Maw

I like the idea of using the Pit line of spells, I'm just not a fan of the execution. As always, the cost it too high. These are straight upgrades on a spell that doesn't scale with level. Having this Anomaly remain viable over the Nihilurges career should not have an extra charge. Making all the spells have a move action concentration requirement? Completely unnecessary. I also think that there was a missed opportunity to better associate this with World Warp. One of the specifically prohibited actions with World Warp is to open pits under creatures. They can be lowered into a hole, they just can't fall into it. How about saying that the World Maw can be placed on any terrain affected by World Warp and shares the duration of the World Warp it is attached to. Say that World Maw can be cast as a Swift action in any round that you use the World Warp ability.

This would also be a great place to make further use of the the investiture system you introduces in Permanent Warps. Perhaps have each World Maw require the investment of 2 Void Points (higher cost here is fine since it just limits current capability and can be recovered) and recovered/dissolved with a Swift action. Something like that?



World Wave

Nice ability, just modify it a little bit to be more appropriate for the Nihilurge instead of its more Druidic origin. Specify that the damage applies to all creature types normally, without special exceptions. Fuzzy bunnies and people get crushed along with everything else. You should say that this World Wave is fully capable of incorporating man-made terrain (like cities). If World Warp has no problem with it, World Wave shouldn't either. Lastly, drop the level requirement to 16. Yes, I know, this duplicates a 9th level spell. So what? It only does 6d6 damage (or only 1d6) but is otherwise just a really cool transport utility that you can't steer. One of the Nihilurges main schticks is messing with the terrain. Let him have this shiny bit of fun a level ahead of everyone else. You know you want to.


That was a beast. Good luck plowing through it. As ever, I'm not sure how tone comes across on the internet so just take my comments in the best light possible.

[Ethereal Gears]

Thanks for the thorough critique, Rex. I'm glad you found the class intriguing enough to give it such an in-depth analysis. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I don't agree with a vast number of your notes, but a lot of it is very useful and makes sense. I'm very grateful you took the time to write it all, and I've tried to read it very carefully.

So, let's kick off with my response. I may need to reply to the anomaly critique separately, though.

Well, so, for starters, I have zero interest in making this class 3/4 BAB or granting it a good Fort save or anything like that. I want these guys to be essentially frail scholars with Lovecraftian warp magic. They're not intended to be a gish type class. I furthermore don't want the nihilurge to be on par, power-wise, with either clerics or wizards. I think both those base classes (along with most other 9-level casters) are overpowered atrocities. This class is highly intentionally meant to be Tier 3 and thus far below the power curve of both clerics and wizards. That being said, I am not averse to boosting the class' capabilities; I just don't wish to do so in the direction of making them more martial-y. I personally don't even like the fact that clerics and oracles are 3/4 BAB classes, but that's a separate discussion.

I'll consider altering the proficiencies. I think granting an exotic weapon prof. for free is probably fair, and I personally wouldn't mind adding that in.

As regards warp flesh:

Deform is indeed meant to deal 1d6+1 points of damage for every class level you have. This means at 1st level it deals 1d6+1, at 2nd level it deals 2d6+2, and so on. I had actually intended for the nonlethal part to change it to physical damage (hence the reference to DR), but I actually think I like simple nonlethal acid damage more. I'll clarify how the damage increases as you level. I have no interest in making this ability multiple-target out of the box. I may add an anomaly to affect multiple targets, however. I do like the idea of having a free version of this ability though (doing 1d6 per odd-numbered class level, plus additional damage equal to 1/2 level) and then spending 1 void point to double that damage and then tacking on the ability damage.

I have to say, I do think you are somewhat undervaluing the reform version of warp flesh by calling it "a short term utility buff". I mean, the ability increase evolution alone can grant +4 to any ability score at 6th level. I'm not saying it's crazy powerful, but when coupled with the greater reforming anomaly (especially if removing the extra void point cost of that, like you suggested) I definitely think it's a good enough ability not to require it to affect multiple targets in order to remain viable as you level up.

I think I agree about rejuvenate. I'll change the bonus healing to equal your full class level.

World Warp: That's a very good point about the battle-of-wills thing. I'll amend it so it requires a Knowledge check. Very good call.

Nihilism: I am utterly opposed to ever making this ability cover arcane magic. It goes against its entire flavor and I just really don't like that idea. I'm all for creating anomalies to boost nihilism in other ways, and buffing the existing ones which already do boost it, but including arcane magic is never going to be part of any such changes.

Vile Bodies: I definitely don't think the vile bodies need any more Construction Points than they already get. If the nihilurge wants to buff them further, that is exactly what granting them evolution points is for. Also granting more CPs on the side just gets confusing, I think. I think the HD idea has merit though. I think you're right that their HD will begin to sag after a while. Good call.

Embrace Madness: I find the sentiment "Lets be fair here. A Nihilurge will always (unless there is a very specific reason not to) take the 10 points of drain" to sound very contradictory when followed by "The problem? He just took a -5 penalty to Will saves (among other things). That penalty probably outweighs the bonus gained". If the latter is true, then clearly a nihilurge will not always take 10 points of drain. Since this comes with dire Will save penalties. So I'm not really seeing the point of this critique? Perhaps I'm missing something and you could elaborate.

Anyway, I'm going to have to mull a lot of what you've said over and see which changes I'll implement. In general, I do think you are right about a lot of the nihilurge's abilities being too costly, and I'm very happy to adjust that. Your suggestions for making various abilities (including some anomalies) more powerful I don't always agree with, although in some cases I think you are spot-on regarding a specific ability. In general though, you clearly want the nihilurge to be a far more powerful class than I do, so in the end my changes are definitely not going to live up to your suggestions. I just figured that's fair to point out at the outset, although I guess it's probably kinda obvious.

I appreciate the critique immensely. Very thought-provoking. What I'm going to do is I'm going to go over the main class and change it, and then I'll post here once that's done and show off the alterations. I'll also address the suggested changes to the various anomalies and then I'll see which of those I wish to implement and to what extent.

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

Alright, so, I went through both the main class features and the anomalies and made some changes. I've updated the contents of the Google Drive link to reflect these changes. Here's a brief summary of what I did:

* There now exists a free version of warp flesh (deform) that does half damage and doesn't include the ability damage.
* Warp flesh now has its range expand as you gain levels, just like vile bodies.
* You now need to succeed on a DC 20 Kn. (planes) check before you can attempt to unravel a world warp.
* Vile body HD now always equals 3/4 the nihilurge's class level, regardless of object size.
* I also made clarifications where Rex pointed them out, so that the deform ability's damage is clarified, and world warp is clarified to explain that the terrain alteration is set once made for the duration of the world warp.
* I didn't change the weapon and armor proficiencies, nor did I alter nihilism or embrace madness. I may come back and do this later, but as of right now I'm not yet convinced they need changing.

As regards the anomalies, I've basically gone through them all and reduced the void point cost of quite a few. I've also made Aberrant Evolutions and Weird Knowledge a bit more attractive to select. I changed Defy Description and Defy Morality to comport more with Rex's suggestions. Otherwise, I haven't done any truly dramatic overhauls, although I did make Living Being not allow a save to resist mind control, and I removed the action economy cost of Parasitize Limb and World Maw. I also made a few other corrections based on Rex's notes, mostly tweaking low-powered abilities to make them more attractive to select. I have not done massive overhauls of Faithless Blessing or True Nihilism, for instance, but I did make Flexible Nihilism not interfere with True Nihilism, and I also halved the void point cost of using Nihilistic Healing, so it's now 1/2 spell level (minimum 1). I would be amendable to lowering that further, but I think it looks alright.

While I disagree with several of Rex's notes, and there may be time to has those disagreements out down the line (I am definitely open to having my mind changed, since the class is still in its semi-early stages of development), there is one particular ability I want to bring up: Ex Nihilo.

I don't think it's fair to characterize hallucinatory terrain and mirage arcana (function as if shadow-conjured) as simply worse, less real versions of a true world warp. They do completely different things. A world warp can turn a pavement into a helical slide, but these illusion spells can create forests, bodies of water, etc.. I.e., while they're less real than a standard world warp, they have a lot more creative potential. The same goes for a void-formed vile body. While being less real is a major downside, the compensate for this by gaining quite a hefty slew of bonus evolution points. They also don't require you to have an appropriately-sized object to hand to animate, which is a benefit I don't think should be underestimated.

That being said, I have made it so a world warp or vile body effected by Ex Nihilo does not cost more void points than a regular one; they just give you new options. Hopefully that makes the ability seem a bit more balanced, even if my above defense of it isn't convincing enough.

So, I am looking forward to hearing views of the class after these changes, and I may then make further ones if I feel it's warranted. I do think all these changes, however minor in some cases, make the class a lot more playable and fun. So thanks to Quarian Rex for spurring them on with their elaborate critique! :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

I created two new anomalies, which have been included in the Google Drive doc:

Warp Reforge (Su)

By spending 1 additional void point when using her world warp ability, the nihilurge can gain increased control over the terrain altered by it. By spending a full-round action while the world warp lasts, the nihilurge can reforge the altered terrain as she wishes. This functions as if though the nihilurge had used her world warp ability again, although the reforging can only affect terrain within the area designated by the world warp; this area cannot be moved, reduced or enlarged. To use this ability, the nihilurge must be located within 60 feet of her world warp's affected area. At 12th level, the nihilurge only needs to expend a standard action to reforge a world warp affected by this anomaly. At 18th level she only needs to expend a move action to do so, although she can still only reforge her world warp once per round. The nihilurge must be at least 6th level to gain this anomaly.

Warp Time (Su)
Once per round, the nihilurge can expend 1 void point to gain an additional move action. At 12th level, she can instead expend 2 void points to gain an additional standard or swift action. These additional actions must be taken immediately when they are gained. At 18th level, the nihilurge can expend 3 void points to gain the effects of time stop, using her class level as the caster level. The nihilurge must be at least 6th level to gain this anomaly.

Hope y'all enjoy!

Cheers,
- Gears

[upho]

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Ethereal Gears Playground wgah'nagl fhtagn! :smalltongue:

Oh my... Love this! The Doom that Came to Pathfinder!

First off, the flavor and the presentation is flawless throughout IMO, so I have nothing to add except to say I'm impressed!

As far as I can tell from my quick read-through, the mechanics also show a lot of promise, including two qualities that are very important for a base class IMO - uniqueness and allowance for plenty of build/playstyle variation. It also seems you've stayed clear of drowning the class in new stuff or reinventing the wheel, and instead used existing Paizo subsystems/options in new ways when possible. Exactly the way to go, IMO.

Until I've read everything more carefully and had some time to consider the power and implications of all abilities, I'm going to focus my critique and questions on the mechanics I'm most familiar with, namely evolutions. I think it's wonderful that you've found a new and very fitting use for this great and underappreciated system, but it contains some annoying flaws IMO, especially when not used as first intended (with a summoner's eidolon). In this case, I think the biggest existing and potential issues are:

Max Attacks/Limbs (arms) evo "Haste spell? What a joke! My extra attacks come dirt cheap at one EP each, and I can buy as many as I like. Now watch how I turn my friendly beast totem barbarian with Multiweapon Fighting into a true monster-mower!" There's a reason the Un-summoner's eidolon got a hard limit to all kinds of attacks, not just natural, and the Nihilurge should have those (or probably harsher) limits as well. I'd even say you should also seriously consider lowering the max number of allowed natural attacks, and maybe also have both limits be dependent on the number of attacks the target already has.
Large/Huge evo The size increase itself is perfectly fine, but the bonuses to Str and Con are way out of line, even when considering the relatively small pool of Evo points and limited daily uses of Warp Flesh the Nihilurge has. From 8th level an onwards, this is a complete no-brainer for the Str-based party beatstick(s) (at least if the max attacks have been nerfed as suggested above), as this vastly outperforms any other "shareable" buff in the game in terms of ability score bonuses and increased melee combat prowess. I suggest the bonuses to Str and Con are halved to +4 and +2 per size category increase, which would mean the evos remain the best size increases in the game, but not crazily so.
Ability Increase evo Give the wizard and magus +8 Int and Dex (they'll probably have no problems taking a -3 to their Will saves), the pally +8 Str and Cha (he won't even take a Will save penalty), and so on. Of course, this may not necessarily be OP at all, but I think it mostly benefits classes that need it the least (in particular boosting the primary stat of full casters). A temporary stat boost also often results in slowing down the game with boring bookkeeping and fiddly stuff easily missed in the heat of things, as they potentially affect a lot of derived numbers (again typically most problematic in the case of casters). If I had designed the Nihilurge, I probably would've limited this to physical stats only, or simply banned the evo in full.
(Shadow Blend and Shadow Form evos This is probably not serious enough to require additional specific rules, but these evos provide very powerful benefits for any kind of character build focusing on ranged combat, again especially in the case of a full caster.)

Closely related to the problems with evos is the potential I suspect hides in Vile Bodies. I guess a Nihilurge focusing on this and his Warp Flesh Reform ability could at least gain raw melee power even greater than a Summoner could through the similar "Summon Monster" ability. But as I may be wrong I've thrown together an example vile body of a 12th level Nihilurge with the Gift of Madness and Greater Reforming anomalies:

CG Huge aberration (augmented construct)
Init -2 Senses darkvision 60, low-light vision; Perception -5

DEFENSE
AC 25, touch 6, flat-footed 25 (-2 Dex, +19 natural, -2 size)
hp 89 (9d10+40 size)
Fort +2, Ref +0, Will -3
Defensive Abilities hardness 10; Immune Construct Traits

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (poor)
Melee 5 slams +18 (3d8+11, +1d6 acid, bypasses DR as magic, chaotic and good)
Special Attacks pounce

STATISTICS
Str 32, Dex 6, Con -, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Base Atk +9 CMB +22 CMD 30
SQ haunted (construction flaw), 5 construction points (additional attack x3, metal), 12 evolution points (energy attacks, flight, improved damage, improved natural armor x3, magic attacks, limbs (arms), pounce, slam)
Hmmm... I think my guess was correct insofar as Jolly Jumper here being a more powerful melee combatant than anything on the SM VI list (I guess a Dire Tiger would be the closest). But having him come to life also expends a total of 4-5 void points (1 Vile Bodies, +1 Warp Flesh, +2 Greater Reforming, +1 if using Warp Flesh with Vile Bodies), which is probably up to about a quarter of the Nihilurge's daily allotment at 12th level. And while construction points and evolutions can give Jolly various nifty stuff for melee combat, that's pretty much all he can do well, while SM includes a wider range of abilities. So I guess this is strong but OK, balance wise. I'm wary of the Ex Nihilo and especially the Permanent Warps anomalies though, as it seems to me they allow at least a somewhat clever player to bypass most of the practical use limitations of Vile Bodies. What are your thoughts on this?

Also, even in cases like the above when the target is a very creature-like object, the RAW for Animated Objects don't actually provide much of the information you need for applying evolutions to your Vile Bodies, and neither will the original shape of the animated object allow you to extrapolate some kind of RAI in many/most cases (if the original shape even should matter?). For example, what base form and which evolutions would you say a huge animated wagon has? How about a medium pine tree, or a small granite rock? I believe this needs to be clarified, maybe by having a few sets of default base forms and evolutions based on the general shape and nature of the object and the default abilities of an Animated Object.

Lastly, I think this ability needs to be significantly less complex, as the ton of fiddly details and moving parts it currently involves would pose a major threat to the poor player's table rep... (Which I assume is also a part of the reason why Paizo decided a summoner cannot rebuild his eidolon each time he summons it.) Maybe it could be a good idea to remove construction points and instead simply give a few free default evos (maybe depending on original shape)?

[Ethereal Gears]

Thanks for the comments, upho. Lots of good points. I'm really glad you think the class looks cool and what not. I'm always happy to get compliments on my layout and presentation as well, whereon I spend an inordinate amount of time and energy. :)

As regards evolutions, you seem to have missed this line under the reform ability: "This effect cannot grant a creature natural attacks in excess of what an eidolon of equivalent level would be able to possess."

Now, I might expand that to include a limit on weapon attacks as well, but frankly Multi-Weapon Fighting is a monster feat and only available to players via special GM permission anyway, so I don't think that's too big of a deal. I will alter the wording, though, so it's clear natural attacks the creature already possesses count towards this limit.

Actually, I would be fine with just banning the large evo. I think it's stupidly designed anyway. The ability score increase evo I agree could be potentially problematic, and since it really doesn't add to the class' flavor that much I might consider banning it too, or restricting it to physical ability score (it is warp FLESH, after all). The shadow form/blend ones I don't really think are problematic, though, and I'll just leave those be.

I agree Ex Nihilo and Permanent Warps are quite powerful abilities, but I really don't think the fact that they allow you to overcome some of the inherent drawbacks associated with animated objects renders the class as a whole OP. I don't personally think Permanent Warps is a super-required anomaly, but some people seem to like it, so I'm probably gonna keep it in.

As regards your sample vile body and additional notes on that topic:

I am going to clarify that vile bodies do not count as having any base form (and thus cannot take base form-exclusive evolutions like pounce). I also think it might be simpler to just not let vile bodies get construction points at all. It just seems kind of gratuitous to me, since they already gain evolution points. Possibly, I could say that they may only acquire construction points via flaws. I actually kind of like that and it feels like it vibes with the whole pseudo-"blessed with suck" feel the class has in general. Thoughts?

Also, just to clarify, the Gift of Madness anomaly only grants evolution points to the nihilurge herself, so I got a bit confused why you mentioned that anomaly in reference to your sample vile body. Furthermore, since your post is so recent I'm was a bit confused to realize you seem to have been perusing an older version of the anomalies document, since Greater Reforming no longer comes with an increased void point cost. Now, this is a buff, obviously, and you were concerned about the power of vile bodies, but if we keep in mind I am considering both removing free construction points and possibly removing the ability increase evo, I think this balances out that Greater Reforming is cheaper to use than you assumed when making your sample vile body.

So them's my thoughts right now. Would love to hear what you think.

Cheers,
- Gears

EDIT: I've updated the Google Drive doc straight away with the following changes: no large evolution, no granting critters more natural attacks than an eidolon of equivalent level could have, including pre-existing natural attacks. The ability increase evo can now only grant physical ability score increases. Also, vile bodies lack a base form for the purposes of meeting evo prereqs. They do not gain construction points for free, but the nihilurge gains all construction point options as bonus evos known and can apply these in place of evos, paying 1 evo point per CP the ability in question costs. Vile bodies can still gain "free" construction points via flaws.

These all seem fairly non-controversial to me, so I just implemented them off the bat. I may furthermore create some kind of anomaly to allow nihilurges to increase creatures' size, but in some fashion that's more balanced than the Large evolution.

EDIT: Because of the impassioned tone in Quarian Rex's critique, and their clear desire to up the Nihilurge's power level, I can't help but hearing in my head, "You maniacs! You really did it! You removed the Large evolution and the free construction points! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb4eZ7Z5yk8) :O

[upho]

Thanks for the comments, upho. Lots of good points. I'm really glad you think the class looks cool and what not. I'm always happy to get compliments on my layout and presentation as well, whereon I spend an inordinate amount of time and energy. :)"Presentation is everything." Well, not really, but I think too many posters still miss that a good presentation actually makes their homebrew better. Playability is a thing. And it feels good to know I'm not the only one to spend silly amounts of time on stuff like layout and graphics!


As regards evolutions, you seem to have missed this line under the reform ability: "This effect cannot grant a creature natural attacks in excess of what an eidolon of equivalent level would be able to possess."No, I got it, probably thanks to the nice layout! :smallsmile: But I can see now that I was a bit unclear in my previous post, sorry. Here's a longer and hopefully less fuzzy version:

First, the most serious issue in this case is the hilariously cheese-able unlimited weapon attacks, just as it is one of the most serious issues in the case of a weapon-wielding eidolon and especially a synth summoner. For example, a relatively low level Nihilurge can basically turn his party's weapon wielders into mariliths (3 extra pairs of limbs (arms) costs a mere 6 EP), giving the melee beatstick up to six additional weapon attacks and the archer/gunslinger three, at the low cost of -2 Wis. Sure, if the allies really wanna get the most out of their additional attacks they probably need to invest in Multiweapon Fighting, and they need to carry around a bunch of additional light melee weapons and bows. But these are small prices to pay for the frankly broken benefits, and in the case of allies who already have TWF, it's just a simple question of retraining. And if given to a character with monk/brawler UAS damage progression, the costs are significantly reduced while the rocket tag potential will be even more stupid.

Second, adding additional natural attacks to your beatstick(s) is another serious issue, even when these attacks are limited by the eidolon max attacks. For example, a 7th level Nihilurge could give his human BSF the limbs (arms) and two times the claws evolutions for a mere 4 EPs, allowing the BSF to add four secondary claw attacks to his regular full attack with a manufactured weapon. And the Nihilurge can do this straight out of the box, at 1st level, by simply adding claws (1 EP) to the BSF's feet, granting two additional attacks. Again, to really benefit the BSF would of course need to invest in Multiattack and later on perhaps an Amulet of Mighty Fists, but these are still small prices to pay and the benefits are borderline broken even without them. And if the Nihilurge's party contains a beatstick who already has access to natural attacks, such as for example a beast totem tiefling primalist bloodrager of the abyssal bloodline, less EPs are needed while the benefits are likely to be much greater since the granted attacks can be made to suit perfectly with the bloodrager build.

Third, a natural attack focused martial PC having their access to natural attacks only limited by the eidolon's max attacks can rather easily be built into quite a melee monster, food processor-style. This is mainly because having attacks of one type is of course a lot better than having the same number of attacks of different types (which is the normal case for martial natural attackers), as the benefits of some of the arguably strongest related feats (such as Feral Combat Training with Dragon Ferocity) applies only to one attack type. For example, with haste the above mentioned tiefling bloodrager can already have an average full attack DPR perfectly able to one-shot typical monsters of CR=level, even at 7th level and without any other additional attacks beyond the three he started with (bite from race and two claws from his bloodline). Meaning he hardly needs further boosting. (I decided on a max attack limit for the wrathblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442363-Wrathblood-The-Monster-Bloodrager-Archetype-New-and-Improved-Monstrous-Thread!) bloodrager archetype that is both harsher than the eidolon's and applying to all kind of attacks. The archetype's melee DPR potential remains very high, most likely surpassing that of the highest possible based on Paizo martial options.)

Fourth, "maybe also have both limits be dependent on the number of attacks the target already has" was really poor wording... :smallredface: It should've said: "maybe also have both max attack limits be dependent on the target's BAB".

In addition, one of the last things melee classes/builds typically need is more damaging full attacks. In general, I think they could gain enormously in terms of versatility and tactical fun by having a friendly Nihilurge that focuses on enablers rather than direct damage increases though. Which is why I find Reform to be such an awesome and fitting ability. It's a fighter-saver! :smallbiggrin:

Anyhow, seeing that adding a special rule limiting max attacks depending on whether the attacks are made with weapons/UAS, natural attacks or both would probably just be needlessly complex and messy, I'm thinking the limit should instead be applied to max added attacks. I suggest something along the lines of (replacing the sentence starting with "This effect cannot grant a creature natural attacks in excess..."):

"This effect only allows the target creature to make one additional attack when making a full attack. If the granted evolutions normally would allow the creature to make more than one additional attack, it has to choose which attack to make in addition to the attacks it normally has. This limit increases to a maximum of 2 additional attacks at 7th level, to 3 additional attacks at 13th level, and to 4 additional attacks at 19th level."

This way, Reform remains a very strong and flexible buff (which I believe it should be), but it's no longer ridiculously OP. What do you think?


Now, I might expand that to include a limit on weapon attacks as well, but frankly Multi-Weapon Fighting is a monster feat and only available to players via special GM permission anyway, so I don't think that's too big of a deal.This is probably a minor detail in this case, but what you say here is not true in PF and likely an "interpretation left-over" from the fuzzy 3.5 rules on the subject. In PF, it's very much RAW that all feats, regardless of source, are accessible to PCs or anyone or anything else that meets the prereqs (it's just rather rare that a PC meets the prereqs of a feat from the bestiaries). In regards to monster feats, it's made clear by the following line:


Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct). (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterFeats.html)

In addition, some monster feats such as Multiweapon Fighting are listed with others as bonus feats available to certain PC classes/archetypes. (I guess you'd be able find several threads coming to the same conclusion here or on the Paizo boards.) And most importantly, monster feats don't include options that threaten game balance AFAIK, but they do have a few options that can help make otherwise mechanically poor or even impossible build concepts viable, which is a very good thing that should be encouraged IMO.


Actually, I would be fine with just banning the large evo. I think it's stupidly designed anyway.I actually think you should keep it, because the increased space occupied and the greater reach are both really good and fun tactical tools for melee types (who typically lack such tactical tools). Though I agree the evo is stupidly designed, essentially simply copying the generic rules for increasing the size of a monster, seemingly without considering the implications in the case of a PC-controlled creature.


The ability score increase evo I agree could be potentially problematic, and since it really doesn't add to the class' flavor that much I might consider banning it too, or restricting it to physical ability score (it is warp FLESH, after all). The shadow form/blend ones I don't really think are problematic, though, and I'll just leave those be.Seems like good decisions to me.


I agree Ex Nihilo and Permanent Warps are quite powerful abilities, but I really don't think the fact that they allow you to overcome some of the inherent drawbacks associated with animated objects renders the class as a whole OP. I don't personally think Permanent Warps is a super-required anomaly, but some people seem to like it, so I'm probably gonna keep it in.Well, I have to admit I might very well be a bit too wary when it comes to stuff in any way resembling getting additional potentially permanent party members. A side-effect of DMing, I guess... And I think both are really cool abilities, so I say keep 'em unless further playtesting or another poster brings up valid arguments against them.


As regards your sample vile body and additional notes on that topic:

I am going to clarify that vile bodies do not count as having any base form (and thus cannot take base form-exclusive evolutions like pounce). I also think it might be simpler to just not let vile bodies get construction points at all. It just seems kind of gratuitous to me, since they already gain evolution points. Possibly, I could say that they may only acquire construction points via flaws. I actually kind of like that and it feels like it vibes with the whole pseudo-"blessed with suck" feel the class has in general. Thoughts?Me like. And especially since constructs are really low on both hp and AC, and since evolutions don't include any options as suitable as construction options to compensate for this, I also like the current "construction options as evos".

Though I do have one additional related question I forgot to bring up in my previous post: what alignment should the Vile Body have? I assumed it gained the same alignment as the Nihilurge, based on how eidolons work and the fact that quite a few interesting evos are alignment dependent and don't work with the construct default Neutral.


Also, just to clarify, the Gift of Madness anomaly only grants evolution points to the nihilurge herself, so I got a bit confused why you mentioned that anomaly in reference to your sample vile body.Oops! Just me not reading properly. Sorry!


Furthermore, since your post is so recent I'm was a bit confused to realize you seem to have been perusing an older version of the anomalies document, since Greater Reforming no longer comes with an increased void point cost. Now, this is a buff, obviously, and you were concerned about the power of vile bodies, but if we keep in mind I am considering both removing free construction points and possibly removing the ability increase evo, I think this balances out that Greater Reforming is cheaper to use than you assumed when making your sample vile body.Oh... Eh, it's because I first started reading this days ago and haven't refreshed the browser tab... I'll do that now, I promise... :smallredface:

Anyway I actually like the removed additional VP cost, since the increased cost is already there and it seems the Nihilurge risks being so VP starved he won't be able to use anything but his most basic bread and butter abilities otherwise. A reduced VP cost might be worth considering for other abilities as well, come to think about it. Primarily in the case of expanded options granted via anomalies, since those already have an inherent opportunity cost. But I'd have to do some further reading and pondering before I can actually recommend it.

[Ethereal Gears]

@upho: I'm going to have a lot more to say, but I just wanted to get this out there since you've been reading an older version of the Anomalies doc: I went through the whole doc a few days ago and rewrote a whole bunch of anomalies (in response to Quarian Rex's very persuasive gripe with my inflated VP expenditures; that cat totally won me over on that particular issue :P), and I specifically cut down the anomaly costs of a vast number of them. Further cuts might potentially be required still, but this is probably useful to keep in mind if you dive into the Anomalies to check on VP costs. Stay tuned for a more measured response to your expanded critique in a bit.

Cheers,
- Gears

[upho]

Aha. Cool. I'll keep it in mind.

[Ethereal Gears]

Alright, so, this is what I've done:

* the max. attacks limit now applies to both natural attacks and iterative attacks, adding them together to see how many (if any) attack-granting evos any particular creature can be granted via reform. Obviously, this falls short of upho's ideal, but frankly I don't think DPR increases are as massively OP and game-disruptive as he appears to, so I see this as meeting him halfway.
* the large evo is back (as noted in the edits of my post before last, I too was leery of losing the ability to grant size increases altogether; Dunwich Horror anyone?) but its granted ability score bonuses are halved.
* vile bodies share the nihilurge's alignment. Good catch upho. Much appreciated.
* vile bodies also are no longer affected by channeled energy. Just an expansion of their inability to be healed by anything other than warp flesh. They are living creatures, but can be neither harmed nor healed by things that specifically only harm or heal living creatures.

For completion, warp flesh now reads like this:

Warp Flesh (Su)

By spending 1 point from her void pool as a standard action, the nihilurge can warp the flesh of a creature within 30 feet. The range of this ability increases by 30 feet at 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level (maximum 150 ft.). This ability can only target living creatures. Each time the nihilurge uses this ability, she can choose to create any one of the effects listed below:

Deform: The target incurs 1d6+1 points of acid damage per class level of the nihilurge (i.e. 1d6+1 at 1st level, 2d6+2 at 2nd level, etc.) as its flesh is gruesomely mutilated and deformed. The nihilurge can alternatively choose to deform her target only superficially, dealing nonlethal acid damage instead. At 5th level, creatures damaged by this ability also incur 2 points of Charisma damage, increasing to 4 points at 13th level. At 9th level, such creatures also incur 2 points to Constitution damage, increasing to 4 points at 17th level. Once the hit point damage incurred via one instance of this ability is removed, so is the attendant ability damage. Creatures targeted by this ability gain a Fortitude save (standard anomaly DC) to halve the incurred hit point damage and completely negate any incurred ability damage. If the nihilurge wishes, she can choose to spend 0 void points to utilize this ability. In this case its inflicted hit point damage is halved (quartered on a successful save) and the deforming does not deal any ability damage.

Reform: The target incurs a temporary Wisdom penalty of -2 and gains 1 evolution point per odd-numbered class level of the nihilurge as void-touched mutations twist its form and unravel its sanity. These evolution points are spent to grant the target eidolon evolutions, chosen by the nihilurge. Both the Wisdom penalty and the granted evolutions last for 1 minute per class level of the nihilurge, and the Wisdom penalty cannot reduce a creature's Wisdom score below 1. The nihilurge can only grant a creature evolutions which she knows. At 1st level, the nihilurge knows a number of evolutions equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. She learns an additional evolution at every odd-numbered class level after 1st. The nihilurge can learn any eidolon evolution she wishes, provided a summoner of her class level would be able to grant that evolution to his eidolon. The nihilurge can only grant physical ability score increases via the ability increase evolution, and when granting a creature the large evolution, the ability score increases it gains from that evolution are halved. To qualify for an evolution, a creature targeted by this ability counts as an eidolon with a summoner of a level equal to the nihilurge's class level and with the same alignment as the nihilurge, counts as having the base form most closely resembling its natural form, and is also considered to have a number of instances of the limbs (arms) and/or limbs (legs) evolutions matching its natural anatomy. This effect can never allow a creature to possess natural attacks in excess of what an eidolon with a summoner of the nihilurge's class level would be able to. In addition, unlike for an eidolon, for a creature affected by this ability any iterative attacks with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes it possesses count towards its maximum number of natural attacks. This ability is a polymorph effect. Targeted creatures can make a Fortitude save (standard anomaly DC) to negate its effects.

Rejuvenate: The target is rejuvenated by unnatural void-touched energies, healing it 1d6 hit points per odd-numbered class level of the nihilurge, plus an additional amount equal to her class level. When using this ability to heal a creature other than herself, an aberration or a creature linked to Leng or the Dark Tapestry, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save (standard anomaly DC), or else become sickened for 1d4 rounds.


And vile bodies reads like this:

Vile Bodies (Su)

At 2nd level, the nihilurge can use her world warp ability to birth a vile body from the flesh of the world. Instead of altering terrain, the nihilurge can animate a single Small or smaller inanimate object or non-creature plant within 30 feet, as per animate objects or animate plants, for 1 minute per class level. The maximum size category of objects or plants this ability can animate increases to Medium at 4th level, and then increases by one additional size category every four class levels thereafter, up to allowing the nihilurge to animate a single Colossal or smaller object or plant at 20th level. At 6th, 10th, 14th and 18th level, the range of this ability increases by 30 feet, up to a maximum range of 150 feet. Unlike a regular world warp, the animation of a vile body cannot have its duration canceled by another creature. Furthermore, a vile body always has Hit Dice equal to 3/4 the class level of the nihilurge that birthed it, rather than having its number of Hit Dice being dependent upon its size category.

Vile bodies are unnatural creations, only vaguely reminiscent of the mundane matter from which they are spawned. As mere extensions of the void-warped will of the nihilurge, a vile body's alignment always matches that of the nihilurge that birthed it, despite its mindless nature. In addition, objects and plants animated via this ability change their creature type to aberration (augmented construct), but do not recalculate their BAB, saves, or skill ranks. They also retain all of the construct creature type's traits, except as noted in this entry. Vile bodies can only be healed via the nihilurge's warp flesh ability, not by effects such as make whole, etc., which can normally repair damage to constructs. They can still be healed via fast healing and regeneration. Effects based on positive and negative energy have no effect on a vile body, neither harmful nor beneficial.

Vile bodies count as living creatures for all effects, but the construct creature type's traits still render them immune to many effects which would be beneficial or harmful to ordinary living creatures. Unlike a regular construct, a vile body is susceptible to death effects and necromancy effects, although their immunity to most effects requiring a Fortitude save will still render vile bodies immune to the majority of such effects. Vile bodies are immune to the adverse effects of diseases, but can still contract them (doing so automatically without a save to resist) and spread them to other creatures.

I'm updating the Google docs to reflect these changes, until I get some more complaints about my precious darling nihilurge and I have to change her all over again. Le sigh!

No, but seriously, I'm loving all the fearless feedback (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgEbhk1pHxQ) I'm getting. It shows y'all really care about the class, as I do, which gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside as if though some unspeakable horror from the far reaches of the cosmos (whereof man was not meant to wot) has burrowed deep inside the cockles of my heart. :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Debihuman]

Nihilism (Ex)
At 2nd level, the nihilurge must cast aside the blessings of the divine in order to fully embrace the unnatural powers of the void. Whenever the nihilurge would be affected by a divine spell, she must attempt a saving throw against it if allowed, even if the spell's effects are harmless. The nihilurge also gains a +1 bonus on all saving throws against divine spells. This ability does not cover spells cast by divine spellcasters who have been granted their powers by entities related to Leng or the Dark Tapestry, such as Cthulhu, Hastur, et cetera. The saving throw bonus granted by this ability improves by +1 at 3rd level and every four class levels thereafter, up to a maximum bonus of +6 at 19th level.

You do realize that any creature can voluntarily choose to fail a saving throw.

"Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality."

Why would she have to attempt a saving throw if she can just voluntarily accept it in the case of harmless spells and beneficial spells?

Also, the longest you can have a Vile Body last is 1 minute per HD. Not much time. Can you only have one at a time? it doesn't say.

Debby

[Ethereal Gears]

That's a good catch, Debi. Much appreciated. I'll add in a clarification that the nihilurge is not allowed to willingly fail a save against a divine spell.

As for vile bodies, I do realize it might be a bit unclear, but it is stated that birthing a vile body is a use of the world warp ability. Thus, a vile body counts as one active world warp. Initially, you can only have one vile body active, at 3rd level this increases to two, et cetera. I'll add a clarifying line in the vile bodies description.

As for the duration of the vile bodies ability, it's sort of based around the summoner's summon monster SLA. Vile bodies aren't meant to be long-term pets out of the box, but that's what the permanent warps anomaly is for. :)

Cheers,
- Gears

[Ethereal Gears]

So, I've uploaded my first archetype for the nihilurge in the Nihilurge Files (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8e09cD4OAF3RFJZZ2ZTUzVKR2c&usp=sharing) folder. It's called the World Wounder and is an Abyss-themed archetype that warps reality via demonic energies rather than void-touched ones. Any input welcome!

Cheers,
- Gears

[upho]

The World Wounder seems awesome! I really like how the Nihilurge's "conduit to a scary alien world"-flavor comes out in the archetype abilities, perhaps even more than in the standard version due to the many distinctly Abyssal/demonic qualities I think you've managed to give the features. And since it really feels like the World Wounder actually brings parts of the Abyss itself into the into the normal world, twisting and corrupting not just himself but also surroundings and other living creatures in a most tangible and demonic way, I think the World Wounder is a lot more suitably frightening than any demon-associated character option found in the rules. Two big thumbs up on flavor!

The mechanics also seem to work fine, although I think some things might be slightly weaker than the vanilla equivalents, at least for a PC in a more typical non-evil campaign. Do you think that's the case?

Love the Demonize anomaly btw, both flavor and mechanics. Scariest non-personal buff ever, especially if combined with Reform for suitably demonic evos! :smallbiggrin:

In summary: very flavorful and well made! This is definitely gonna see use at my table, at least for NPC villains.

..............

Speaking of reform - and I'm sorry to bring up this old mess again - it seems I forgot to comment on an apparent misunderstanding regarding my views on the natural attack limit:
* the max. attacks limit now applies to both natural attacks and iterative attacks, adding them together to see how many (if any) attack-granting evos any particular creature can be granted via reform. Obviously, this falls short of upho's ideal, but frankly I don't think DPR increases are as massively OP and game-disruptive as he appears to, so I see this as meeting him halfway.This is actually a much harsher limit than what you originally had and what I suggested. At least in higher levels, this limit means the Nihilurge typically cannot grant any additional attacks at all to the melee builds that could use the buff the most, such as TWF-ers and natural attackers, since they'll probably already have the maximum number allowed.

I think the key to the confusion here is whether the limit applies to added attacks only, or to both existing and added attacks. My suggestion was that it should only apply to added attacks (of any type) so certain fighting styles aren't left out in the cold:
I suggest something along the lines of (replacing the sentence starting with "This effect cannot grant a creature natural attacks in excess..."):

"This effect only allows the target creature to make one additional attack when making a full attack. If the granted evolutions normally would allow the creature to make more than one additional attack, it has to choose which attack to make in addition to the attacks it normally has. This limit increases to a maximum of 2 additional attacks at 7th level, to 3 additional attacks at 13th level, and to 4 additional attacks at 19th level."Actually, looking at it again, this should be probably be nerfed to a maximum of 3 additional attacks at the highest levels. Still an incredibly potent melee buff at all levels.

[Ethereal Gears]

Pardon the belated response. I totally posted the world wounder and then forgot all about it.

I'm glad you like the archetype, upho. Apparently, I didn't feel the vanilla nihilurge was metal enough. :P

I must admit, although I specifically wrote the alignment restrictions in such a way as to make it more playable as a PC archetype, I do (personally) primarily envision this as a way to create cool enemy NPCs. I think it's slightly less powerful than the vanilla nihilurge, but it's more of a sidegrade, in my view. The base abilities are probably a slight nerf, but I think that's compensated for by the ability to summon demons (and other chaotic evil outsiders) and control them like undead. On the whole, I would say the vanilla 'urge is a trifle more powerful, overall, but it's also just plain different. If you're in a demon-heavy campaign (or an evil campaign) I think the world wounder might actually have an edge.

I think buffing the world wounder (if desired) could be done by creating more cool abyss- & demon-themed anomalies, which it's very possible I will do in future.

As for the reform thing, I'm not sure I see your point? Why would TWF-ers and natural attacks be those that "need the buff the most"? As you write, they already have a ton of attacks. Surely, a buff that grants additional attacks as part of a full attack is more "needed" by melee types that have few attacks? Or am I missing something in your logic?

I wouldn't mind changing it, as such, but I'm not sure it feels worth it. Also, I don't really like rules that come with a bunch of exceptions, like you can grant any number of natural attacks, but you can only use so and so many when performing a full attack, et cetera. It just strikes me as clunky and needlessly complicated. I could imagine changing it so you can never grant more natural attacks via reform than an eidolon of a 1st-level summoner could possess (3), or possibly an eidolon whose summoner is 1/2 your class level, or some other ratio like that. Basically, I don't want a system in place that limits how many natural attacks the creature being reformed can make, I want a limit on how many natural attacks you can grant in the first place.

EDIT: In other news, just for fun, upcoming nihilurge archetypes will be a fey-themed one that lets you channel the First World to warp reality and some kind of bard-esque archetype inspired by "The Music of Erich Zahn", "The King in Yellow" and other "decadent artist"-themed Lovecraftian/cosmic horror fiction. It will use Charisma instead of Int. So that's something to look forward to, hopefully! :)

[upho]

I'm glad you like the archetype, upho. Apparently, I didn't feel the vanilla nihilurge was metal enough. :P*bangs head and tries to roar like a balor* So true, demons are the epitome of metal in PF/D&D, no doubt.

Though to me, being metal feels like the primary defining feature of most things Abyssal, and regardless of how hard the devs may have tried tried, as a group demons have never really felt nearly as frightening as the utterly alien lovecraftian horrors, or the demons in Warhammer FRPG for that matter. Which is why I found the world wounder to be such a nice surprise - it's metal and scary! :smallbiggrin:


I must admit, although I specifically wrote the alignment restrictions in such a way as to make it more playable as a PC archetype, I do (personally) primarily envision this as a way to create cool enemy NPCs. I think it's slightly less powerful than the vanilla nihilurge, but it's more of a sidegrade, in my view. The base abilities are probably a slight nerf, but I think that's compensated for by the ability to summon demons (and other chaotic evil outsiders) and control them like undead. On the whole, I would say the vanilla 'urge is a trifle more powerful, overall, but it's also just plain different. If you're in a demon-heavy campaign (or an evil campaign) I think the world wounder might actually have an edge.You're probably right. And I'm indeed planning to use it exactly as you envisioned - to create a cool enemy NPC!



As for the reform thing, I'm not sure I see your point? Why would TWF-ers and natural attacks be those that "need the buff the most"? As you write, they already have a ton of attacks.Oh sorry, not natural attackers (or at least not decently built ones)! Seems my dementia struck again... :smallredface:

But definitely TWF-ers (see below).


Surely, a buff that grants additional attacks as part of a full attack is more "needed" by melee types that have few attacks? Or am I missing something in your logic?Well, in comparison to TWF, 2H typically has a higher average damage output (especially in practice since full attacks are far from guaranteed in every turn), has +2 to attack rolls, allows for more mobility by being less dependent on full attacks, grants up to 15 ft. additional reach, has access to superior feats, and basic functionality requires one instead of two high stats and one instead of at least three feats, in addition to costing half as much gold. (There are of course exceptions when TWF is a superior mechanical choice, but they're rare IME.)

But provided the Reform attack limit affects most attack dependent builds at least somewhat similarly, I think the relative advantages certain melee styles may have is something neither the Nihilurge's mechanics or you should have to be concerned with.


I wouldn't mind changing it, as such, but I'm not sure it feels worth it. Also, I don't really like rules that come with a bunch of exceptions, like you can grant any number of natural attacks, but you can only use so and so many when performing a full attack, et cetera. It just strikes me as clunky and needlessly complicated. I could imagine changing it so you can never grant more natural attacks via reform than an eidolon of a 1st-level summoner could possess (3), or possibly an eidolon whose summoner is 1/2 your class level, or some other ratio like that. Basically, I don't want a system in place that limits how many natural attacks the creature being reformed can make, I want a limit on how many natural attacks you can grant in the first place.A zero tolerance policy towards clunky-ness sounds great, and I can understand your dislike for the whole "granting attacks that can't be made" thing (it was mostly there for the evos that grant attacks in pairs). Thankfully, I don't think there needs to be any of that, really. And if you'd prefer to keep that out of it, I think you should simplify even further and not involve the eidolon rules either, maybe something like:

"This effect can not grant the target creature more than one additional attack. This limit increases to a maximum of 2 additional attacks at 10th level, and to 3 additional attacks at 19th level."

This seems simple and straightforward enough, and strong but still reasonable IMO. How 'bout it?


EDIT: In other news, just for fun, upcoming nihilurge archetypes will be a fey-themed one that lets you channel the First World to warp reality and some kind of bard-esque archetype inspired by "The Music of Erich Zahn", "The King in Yellow" and other "decadent artist"-themed Lovecraftian/cosmic horror fiction. It will use Charisma instead of Int. So that's something to look forward to, hopefully! :)More weird 'Urges, yay! The Zahn concept sounds really interesting. Does it come with serious Perform (violin) bonuses and some kind of "dumb" and "aged" curses? :smalltongue:

[Ethereal Gears]

I like your suggested change for reform, upho. Thanks! You are quite right; there is indeed no real need to reference the eidolon rules in this instance. It just comes automatically when dealing with evolutions, since ordinarily only eidolons gain them. I will implement it, although I will start out at 1 nat. attack at 1st level, and then increase it to 2 at 6th, 3 at 12th and 4 at 18th level, because you are just excessively worried about how unbalancing the added hp damage potential of this ability is, my friend. :P

By the way, I'm very elated you think the nihilurge actually manages to evoke horror, and that this translated onto the world wounder as well. I definitely agree that PF demons tend to veer more towards the cartoonishly "big mean and scary" than the actually horrifying. The world wounder was obviously inspired in part by the actual Worldwound in the Golarion campaign setting, as well as the Wrath of the Righteous AP in general, but I like to think I gave it my own personal twist.

Cheers,
- Gears

[upho]

I will implement it, although I will start out at 1 nat. attack at 1st level, and then increase it to 2 at 6th, 3 at 12th and 4 at 18th level, because you are just excessively worried about how unbalancing the added hp damage potential of this ability is, my friend. :POk. Fine. YES, you're right, dammit! :smallannoyed:

*mumbles incoherently* "...can't even let a man keep his obsessions..." *mumbles incoherently* "...rocket tag, I told 'im, it's gonna end in rocket tag and tears..."

:smallsmile:

Seriously though, I think the worst case scenario, if otherwise using typically acceptable (no Leadership) Paizo stuff only, would be a Nihilurge in a party with something like a wereboar-kin skinwalker bloodrider primalist bloodrager (abyssal) 16+, master of many styles monk 2, with the Monstrous Mount Mastery (griffon), Greater Eldritch Heritage (orc bloodline), Feral Combat Training x2 (claws and gore) and Dragon Ferocity feats, and the Boar's Charge, Disemboweling Tusks, Ferocious Mount and Greater Beast Totem rage powers.

With a Fleshwarped Scorpion's Tail and a Pelt of the Beast, this bloodrager has at least 46 Str while raging, and pounces with 5 primary (bite, 2 claws, gore, sting) and 2 secondary (2 hooves) natural attacks. The first claw and the first gore attack in a round receives a Str x2 damage bonus, and following claws and gore attacks a Str x1.5 damage bonus, all of them also gaining the +15 "2-handed" Power Attack damage bonus. A gore attack hit also always threaten a crit, and a gore crit deals 1d4 Con damage, which translates into removing an average of 2.5 points of Fort and at the very least 45 hp from an approximately average CR 18 opponent. With the orc bloodline's Power of Giants active and some standard buffs and items (such as haste and strong jaw, a +4 furious amulet of mighty fists, a rhino hide, a cracked pale green prism ioun and gauntlets of rending), the average DPR if charging say a balor (CR 20, AC 36, 370 hp) will easily exceed 630 (189+ first gore, 179+ second gore haste, 76+ first claw, 67+ second claw, 51+ sting, 34+ per hoof).

The bloodrager's now huge griffon mount has at least 38 Str (largely due to the Ferocious Mount rage power), and pounces with at least 3 primary attacks (bite and 2 talons). With the Feral Combat Training (talons) and Dragon Ferocity feats plus some standard items, the griffon adds at least an additional 136 average DPR (54+ first claw, 46+ second claw, and 36+ bite), for a total average DPR of more than 766, enough to kill the poor balor more than twice over.

So with Greater Reform from the bloodrager's friendly Nihilurge (also 18th level) and a Helm of the Mammoth Lord to save a couple of evo points, the bloodrager adds 4 additional gores (6 ep) on 4 additional heads (8 ep) and takes a -4 Wis penalty, adding more than 716 (179+ per gore) average damage, thus more than doubling the bloodrager's DPR against a balor (more than a 113% increase). Something like the tarrasque (CR 25, AC 40, 525 hp) or an even more durable monster is highly likely to be fine red mist if this Reformed bloodrager wins initiative and can charge it, or is simply able to make a full attack. And it gets even sillier if the Nihilurge adds the Large evo (for an additional VP and -2 Wis) and/or Reforms the bloodrager's griffon as well.

But this build is pretty damn rocket tag silly to begin with, so I don't really think doubling that silliness ought to matter much, especially at this late level. And for most weapon builds, the current attack limit will have the greatest impact during earlier levels and won't be nearly as great. I guess especially un-monks ready to MWF with their high damage UAS might also be in for a quite massive DPR boost though...

Anyhow, this might give you a better idea of the damage boost additional attacks (which stack with haste and everything else) actually can give, if you didn't already know. Your thoughts?


By the way, I'm very elated you think the nihilurge actually manages to evoke horror, and that this translated onto the world wounder as well. I definitely agree that PF demons tend to veer more towards the cartoonishly "big mean and scary" than the actually horrifying. The world wounder was obviously inspired in part by the actual Worldwound in the Golarion campaign setting, as well as the Wrath of the Righteous AP in general, but I like to think I gave it my own personal twist.I think the thing is I've always seen the PF/D&D Abyss/demon stuff as having the potential to be scary, but somehow failing in nearly all cases. Usually I think it's because of the cartoonish quality of most demons you mention, a quality I think they've gained largely because both WoTC and Paizo seemingly haven't allowed their published material to illustrate and exemplify the disgustingly brutal, violent and gory actions or the absolutely inhuman and uncaringly evil nature demons would require to become something more. In my mind, one could say the lovecraftian horrors are scary mainly because of their alien nature, whereas demons could be scary by simply being just as "in-your-face" evil as most players assume they are (but seemingly rarely witness in game). Though I haven't played Wrath of the Righteous so I might be off here regarding Paizo.

I try to redeem this in my own games though. For example, when the LG warder/pally PC in my current game used detect evil on a bound high CR demon the party had found, he had to roll a high DC Will save (which he failed). He simply fell down whimpering and crying in fetal position on the ground, feeling as if the goodness he believed in had been proven to be nothing but foolish wishful thinking, as if his very being was being raped and pissed on by the laughing demon forcing him to make this horrible realization. All just from getting a whiff of how unfathomably evil the demon actually was.

[qazie]

EDIT: In other news, just for fun, upcoming nihilurge archetypes will be a fey-themed one that lets you channel the First World to warp reality and some kind of bard-esque archetype inspired by "The Music of Erich Zahn", "The King in Yellow" and other "decadent artist"-themed Lovecraftian/cosmic horror fiction. It will use Charisma instead of Int. So that's something to look forward to, hopefully! :)

My Gm ok'd the class so I'll be trying it in to weeks! Very good job with it by the way, I like a lot of the imagery and fluff.

The King in Yellow is one of my Lovecraftian creations, I don't know if that archetype will be done in 2 weeks but if it is I would totally use it, I'll be keeping a hawks eye on this thread for updates from you!

[Ethereal Gears]

@upho: Yeah, that is some crazy ****. Although, in my view it's a universal truth of PF that the game is so unbalanced at its core that gentleman's agreements not to push optimization too far are basically required for the game to work. This is as true for the DPR of martial characters as it is for the "make reality sit down and shut up" shenanigans of high-level wizards. Basically, while I would find it really annoying GMing for the build you posted, there are scores of other builds out there, all done with 100% 1st party RAW Paizo material, that are every bit as disruptive to gameplay. If anything, raw HP damage is a lot easier as a GM to deal with than optimized utility magic and battlefield control in a lot of situations.

That scene with the paladin in your game reminded me quite a lot of the Where Is Your God Now nihilurge anomaly. :P
I do love stuff like that, though. It really adds to the flavor of a creature that should, indeed, be one of the absolutely most morally reprehensible beings in existence.

@qazie: Glad you like the class. I cannot swear either of the two additional archetypes I'm planning for it will be done within 2 weeks, but it's not impossible. As is the perennial case with me, I am juggling way too many disparate homebrew projects simultaneously, some of which I am tentatively thinking I might try to actually publish as PDFs rather than just give away for free on the forums, so it's kind of difficult to know what things I will complete in which order. All I can say is as soon as anything nihilurge-related gets done, I will post an update in this thread straight away!

If it sounds at all interesting to you, I did create a "King in Yellow"-themed bloodline for my blood scion class (a kind of sorcerer-version of the magus). It can be found in the Bloodline Files folder accessible via THIS LINK (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8e09cD4OAF3fmFieWRrNzBJZEFPVXVqX1p yZHBVbVM1blVLU0Y0bEpCenZ4MEpRbXR4Rlk&usp=sharing). The bloodline in question is called the Sallow Bloodline.

Cheers,
- Gears

[upho]

@upho: Yeah, that is some crazy ****. Although, in my view it's a universal truth of PF that the game is so unbalanced at its core that gentleman's agreements not to push optimization too far are basically required for the game to work. This is as true for the DPR of martial characters as it is for the "make reality sit down and shut up" shenanigans of high-level wizards. Basically, while I would find it really annoying GMing for the build you posted, there are scores of other builds out there, all done with 100% 1st party RAW Paizo material, that are every bit as disruptive to gameplay. If anything, raw HP damage is a lot easier as a GM to deal with than optimized utility magic and battlefield control in a lot of situations.I agree with almost everything you say here (which is why I don't allow full caster progression or spells above 6th in my own game). That said, I do believe one should strive to avoid introducing new options that can easily break the game as far as possible. And I actually think the DPR of martial characters is basically never problematic after the very first two levels or so (which I usually don't include anyways), and I have no problems with for example the currently 9th level wrathblood bloodrager in my game being able to easily one-shot an average CR 9 opponent on his first turn, seeing that capacity more as a kind of baseline for a PC with a primary striker/damage dealer combat role in a "high T3" game such as mine. (Even though that baseline is virtually impossible for most Paizo martial classes to reach in practice.) Still think the synth is OP, albeit far less than a master summoner or wizard.


That scene with the paladin in your game reminded me quite a lot of the Where Is Your God Now nihilurge anomaly. :PHeh, you're absolutely right! I should totally throw a few levels of Nihilurge on the next powerful demon the party finds... :smalltongue:

Speaking of the wrathblood, here are the evos I wrote for the archetype, most of them intended to increase melee versatility and give actually useful control and/or debuff tools. These have been pretty thoroughly playtested and are currently being used in at least three games I know of besides mine. Some won't fit the Nihilurge and some would need modifications, but please pilfer/borrow/copy/take inspiration from whatever you find useful:


Merged Amulet (Su)
The wrathblood can associate a magic item with her changed bloodrage shape, allowing its magic to take effect when in bloodrage. The wrathblood gains an additional magic item slot which may only hold an Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists). The amulet remains around her neck even while she is not in bloodrage, but does not provide any benefits until she enters bloodrage. The amulet functions as normal if it is removed. (This evolution allows the wrathblood to gain the vital benefits of an Amulet of Mighty Fists without having to sacrifice other items that normally also occupies the neck slot, or to make such items more expensive. In other words, it gives her the "magic weapon slot" that weapon-wielding characters have.)


Small Base Form (Ex)
A large or medium wrathblood can choose to take on a Small base form without spending any evolution points when using any ability which allows her to manifest evolutions. This is treated as any other evolution, using the rules of the specific ability used. A Small wrathblood gains a +2 bonus to her Dexterity score and takes a –2 penalty to her Strength score. She also gains a +1 size bonus to her AC and attack rolls, a –1 penalty to her CMB and CMD scores , a +2 bonus on her Fly skill checks, and a +4 bonus on her Stealth skill checks. The damage of all of her attacks are also reduced by one step from Medium size (1d6 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d3). These values are doubled if the wrathblood originally was Large size. These changes replaces those applied to eidolons of a Small size base form.


Tripping Fang (Ex)
The wrathblood has hooked or barbed weapons which deal less damage but can easily catch the target's skin, clothing or armor, making them excellent tools for tripping opponents. Choose one type of natural attack (such as claws, bite or sting). The damage die size of the chosen attack type is reduced by one category (1d8 becomes 1d6, 1d6 becomes 1d4 etc), in addition to any other effects affecting the damage die size. The chosen attack type ignores the immunity to the trip combat maneuver flying creatures normally have. When the wrathblood uses the attack to successfully trip a flying target, the target does not fall prone, but instead takes a -2 penalty to AC and attack rolls, and its fly and land speed is halved. These effects remain until the target spends a move action to remove the them, which provokes attacks of opportunity. This is treated as a trip combat maneuver in all other respects, and it triggers any actions which are normally triggered by a creature falling prone (and is thus compatible with for example the Greater Trip, Wolf Trip or Vicious Stomp feats). The wrathblood must have the trip evolution or the Improved Trip feat to select this evolution.




Blightburn Poison (Ex)
The wrathblood’s body absorbs even the most minute traces of blightburn she comes into contact with and stores it in her poison glands, strengthening her poison with the terrible power of the concentrated mineral. A creature which fails its saving throw against the wrathblood’s poison is afflicted with blightburn sickness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases/blightburn-sickness) (no save) and takes 2d6 points of fire damage per round. A successful caster level check (DC = 10 + wrathblood level + Constitution modifier) is also required to affect the poisoned creature with magic of the teleportation subschool. This is in addition to the other effects of the poison.

Even a creature immune to poison or which makes a successful saving throw is afflicted with blightburn sickness if it takes damage from the poisonous attack, but is granted a saving throw to avoid the disease. Until the poison is cleaned away with a successful DC 15 Heal check, such a creature also takes 1d6 points of fire damage per round, and a successful caster level check (DC = 10 + 1/2 wrathblood level + Constitution modifier) is required to affect the creature with magic of the teleportation subschool.

The wrathblood is immune to the effects of blightburn while manifesting this evolution. She must have the poison evolution and be at least 8th level to select this evolution. She may also spend additional evolution points to further enhance her blightburn poison with one or both of the following:

Lethal Injection If 1 additional evolution point is spent, the DC of the wrathblood’s poison gains a bonus equal to half the ability score modifier used when making the poisonous attack (Strength or Dexterity). Poison with this evolution can affect any creature not immune to the effects of blightburn, though a creature normally immune to poison gains a +5 bonus to the saving throw. The wrathblood must be at least 11th level to select this evolution.
Mage Cage Poison (Su) If 2 additional evolution points are spent, a creature taking damage from the wrathblood’s poisonous attack, but which avoids being poisoned, can not be affected by any kind of extradimensional travel (as per the dimensional anchor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimensional-anchor) spell) until the poison has been cleaned away. A poisoned creature is also restricted to the plane where the wrathblood made the attack, and can not benefit from any extradimensional perception or attack forms, or any magic or supernatural effects which augments its movement (such as those granted by the fly, freedom of movement or haste spells). Any ongoing such effects are suspended until the creature successfully saves against the poison. The wrathblood must be at least 14th level to select this evolution.


Monstrous Flurry (Ex)
The wrathblood is capable of attacking with blinding speed, shredding her opponents in a flurry of claws and fangs. Whenever she takes a standard or full-round action which includes a single attack (such as a standard action attack, a vital strike or a charge), she can make an additional natural attack against the same target. This additional attack is made using the same bonuses and penalties a standard action attack would have in the same circumstances. The wrathblood must be at least 5th level to select this evolution. She may also spend additional evolution points to enhance her monstrous flurry with one or both of the following:

Monstrous Pounce For one additional evolution point, the wrathblood can also make a full attack using her natural attacks at the end of a charge (none of her attacks can be made using wielded weapons or unarmed strikes). The wrathblood must be at least 7th level to select this evolution.
Monstrous Opportunist For one additional evolution point, once per round and opponent, the wrathblood can also make two natural attacks instead of one whenever she is granted an attack of opportunity. This still counts as a single attack of opportunity (she does not need the Combat Reflexes feat in order to benefit from this evolution once per round). Only one of these two attacks may be used to make a Combat Maneuver, regardless of any other abilities she may have. The wrathblood must be at least 11th level to select this evolution.


Powerful Charge (Ex)
The wrathblood gains the powerful charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Powerful-Charge-Ex-) special attack, making her horns or tusks devastating weapons when she charges opponents. Once per turn, one of her gore attacks deals twice the normal damage when successfully used in a charge (extra damage resulting from a critical hit or precision damage are not doubled), and she is treated as having the powerful charge special ability for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of feats. The wrathblood must have a Strength score of 26 or higher (while bloodraging) and a gore primary attack to select this evolution.


Spikes (Ex)
The wrathblood grows several long, hard and needle-sharp spikes from her knuckles, lower arms, shin bones or other parts of her body. These spikes grant the wrathblood a secondary spike attack which deals 1d4 points of piercing damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The reach evolution can not be applied to the spike attack, but it can be chosen for the poison evolution (in place of a bite or sting attack). Additionally, a creature that attempts to grapple the wrathblood takes 1d4 points of piercing damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge) per grapple combat maneuver check. The spikes prevent the wrathblood from wearing heavy armor of any kind or material. She must have the improved natural armor evolution to select this evolution.

Blades For 1 additional evolution point, the spikes become razor-sharp blades, resembling curved daggers or the darkened teeth of some gigantic monster. These blades have the same benefits and limitations as the spikes, but replaces the spike attack with a primary blade attack which deals 1d6 points of slashing damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge), and alters the damage per grapple combat maneuver check accordingly. Once per round, while the wrathblood is moving, she can also make this blade attack as an attack of opportunity against an opponent in a space adjacent to the space she is leaving. She must move at least 10 feet in a straight line in order to make this attack, and she must have moved at least 5 feet prior to the attack. This attack is resolved after any attacks of opportunity provoked by her movement.




Hooked Tentacles (Ex)
A pair of the wrathblood’s tentacles are particularly well-adapted for catching and holding her prey, having strong suction cups with large hooked claws at their tips. These replace two secondary tentacle attacks, tails or a pair of limbs (arms) with two primary hooked tentacle attacks, which deal 1d4 bludgeoning and piercing damage (1d6 if Large). The hooked tentacles are treated as normal tentacle attacks for the purpose of applying other evolutions to them, and both hooked tentacles gain additional reach if the reach evolution is applied to either one. The poison evolution can be added to a pair of hooked tentacles (in place of a bite or sting attack), as well as the constrict evolution, even if the wrathblood does not have the serpentine base form (both hooked tentacles must be used in a grapple in order to deal constrict damage equal to that of one hooked tentacle attack). If this evolution is added to a pair of tails or limbs (arms), any attacks associated with the limbs are replaced with the hooked tentacle attacks. This evolution can be selected more than once, replacing two tentacle attacks, two tails or a pair of limbs (arms) each time it is selected. The wrathblood must have at least two tentacle attacks, two tails or a pair of limbs (arms) to select this evolution.

When used in tandem, a pair of hooked tentacles with the grab evolution can allow the wrathblood to avoid the grappled condition when she grabs an opponent. She must be able to attack a single creature with both hooked tentacle attacks during the same turn, and use the grab ability of her first hooked tentacle attack to initiate a grapple. By choosing not to make her second hooked tentacle attack and instead use the limb to assist in the grapple, she takes a -5 penalty to her CMB check to initiate the grapple (instead of the normal -20). If the grapple attempt is successful, she may maintain the grapple using only the two hooked tentacles and avoid the grappled condition, as described in the grab ability (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Grab-Ex-) rules. Similarly, whenever she makes her first grapple check to maintain a grapple during her turn, she may decide to use only the two hooked tentacles, even if she initiated the grapple normally, thereby avoiding the grappled condition and taking only a -5 penalty to her CMB checks to maintain the grapple until the start of her next turn. She deals automatic damage with both hooked tentacles, plus any constrict damage, whenever she successfully maintains her hold. If the wrathblood has the Snatch feat, her hooked tentacles are treated as claws for the purpose of the feat's benefits, and she instead takes no penalty when using only her two hooked tentacles in a grapple and can use them to grapple a creature of any size.


Monstrous Limbs (Ex)
A pair of the wrathblood’s limbs are extremely large and flexible, enabling her to reach far and wide with an uncanny strength and speed. Select two natural attacks of the same type, made with a pair of limbs (arms), tentacles or tails (such as claws, hooked tentacles or stingers). The two selected natural attacks, and the associated pair of limbs, gain a natural reach equal to the maximum reach a creature of the same size category and shape has while wielding a reach weapon. This evolution typically increases the wrathblood's natural reach by +5 feet if she has a Small or Medium (tall) or a Large (long) shape, by +10 feet if she has Large (tall) or a Huge (long) shape, or by +15 feet if she has Huge (tall) shape. (Templates can be found here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-templates) If the wrathblood is in the shape of a creature (via for example beast shape) that originally does not follow this general rule, adapt the reach increase to the creature and attacks in question.) This reach replaces that of the original natural attacks.

When using the monstrous limbs to drag, grapple, pull, push, reposition or trip an opponent, the wrathblood gains a +2 bonus to the Combat Maneuver check, and she is treated as if one size category larger when determining whether she can affect an opponent with those maneuvers and special attacks. In addition, the trip evolution can be applied to a pair of oversized limbs (in place of a bite attack), adding the trip special attack to the natural attacks of both limbs. To select this evolution, the wrathblood must have a pair of identical natural attacks made with a pair of identical limbs (arms), tentacles or tails.


Monstrous Prescience (Su)
The wrathblood can see all the possible outcomes of any of her own most immediate futures. This grants her an insight bonus to AC and on initiative checks and Reflex saves equal to half her Charisma modifier, and allows her to make additional attacks of opportunity each round equal to half her Charisma modifier. This stacks with any additional attacks of opportunity granted by the Combat Reflexes feat. If this evolution was granted by the wrathblood's shape of wrath ability, she gains the benefits even while not in a bloodrage.


Monstrous Size (Ex)
The wrathblood grows in size, becoming one size category larger. She gains a +2 bonus to Strength, a +1 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 bonus to her natural armor. She also takes a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a –1 size penalty to AC and on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to CMB and CMD, a –2 penalty on Fly skill checks, and a –4 penalty on Stealth skill checks. If the wrathblood has a biped or similar (tall) shape, she also gains +5 feet additional reach. Any reach evolutions she possesses are added to this total, and any armor, clothing or other size-dependent equipment she is wearing and not simply holding adapts to her new size. These changes stack with any bonuses or penalties from other sources, including other bonuses to natural armor. This evolution can not make the wrathblood larger than Large size, and the wrathblood can not be affected by any non-hostile effect which makes her larger than Large. The wrathblood must be no larger than Medium size and at least 5th level before selecting this evolution.

If 2 additional evolution points are spent, the bonuses to Strength, Constitution and natural armor are doubled (+4 to Strength, +2 to Constitution, +4 to natural armor), and the size increase of this evolution further stacks with those of other sources, allowing the wrathblood to become up to Huge size. The wrathblood must be no larger than Large size and at least 8th level before selecting this evolution.


Tiny (Ex)
The wrathblood becomes Tiny, and gains a +4 bonus to her Dexterity score and takes a –2 penalty to her Strength score, and her space becomes 2-½ feet and her natural reach 0 feet. She also gains a +1 size bonus to her AC and attack rolls, a –1 penalty to her CMB and CMD scores, a +2 bonus on her Fly skill checks, and a +4 bonus on her Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of her attacks by one step from Small size (1d6 becomes 1d4, 1d4 becomes 1d3 etc.). These changes are in addition to, and stacks with, those of the Small size base form. The wrathblood can not manifest this evolution while bloodraging, and she must have a Small base form (see the 'Free Optional Evolutions' section above) and be at least 8th level to select this evolution.

Diminutive If 4 additional evolution points are spent, the wrathblood can instead become Diminutive, gaining a +6 bonus to her Dexterity and taking a –4 penalty to her Strength and a –2 penalty to her Constitution, and her space becomes 1 feet. She also gains a +2 size bonus to her AC and attack rolls, a –2 penalty to her CMB and CMD scores, a +2 bonus on her Fly skill checks, and a +6 bonus on her Stealth skill checks. Reduce the damage of all of her attacks by one step from Tiny size (1d3 becomes 1d2, 1d2 becomes 1). These changes are in addition to, and stacks with, those of the Tiny size base form. The wrathblood can not manifest this evolution while bloodraging, and she must have a the Tiny evolution and be at least 12th level to select this evolution.


True Terror (Su)
The wrathblood is truly terrifying in her bloodrage. Whenever she successfully demoralizes an already shaken opponent, she can choose to make the opponent frightened instead of increasing the duration of the shaken condition. The wrathblood must be at least 7th level to select this evolution.

Monstrous Terror For one additional evolution point, whenever the wrathblood successfully demoralizes an already frightened opponent, she can choose to make the opponent panicked instead of increasing the duration of the frightened condition. The wrathblood must be at least 9th level to select this evolution.

Sum of All Fears For yet another additional evolution point (4 in total), the wrathblood can also demoralize opponents otherwise immune to fear or mind-affecting effects, although a creature immune to mind-affecting effects gain a +10 bonus to the demoralize DC. The wrathblood must be at least 11th level to select this evolution.

[Ethereal Gears]

Hey, I remember reading the Wrathblood way back when! Did I ever comment on it? I remember I thought it was very well-made at the time (can't recall if there were any issues, just a general good impression), and I remember discussing it with KitsuneBoxing (another Stockholmian forumer with whom I play PF). I think there's a lot of good stuff in these evos you've posted. In fact, as far as pilfering them for the nihilurge goes, I think they would be perfect (possibly with some tweaks, because I can never leave well enough alone :P) to add as additional evo options available via an anomaly (in the manner of the Aberrant Evolutions anomaly), specifically for the world wounder. They have the kind of brutal, demoniac flair to them that I think would be perfect to add onto fiendish bodies and demonized allies.

[upho]

Actually, I distinctly remember you coming up with the suggestion of using evos for the archetype's wild shape-esque utility feature, which is perfectly in line with the flavor and has worked very well. So you're at least partially and indirectly responsible for the more peaceful of the evos I posted above (such as tiny/diminutive sizes)! :smallsmile:

And btw, thanks a ton again for your help in finding that elusive last piece of the "wrathblood puzzle"!


In fact, as far as pilfering them for the nihilurge goes, I think they would be perfect (possibly with some tweaks, because I can never leave well enough alone :P) to add as additional evo options available via an anomaly (in the manner of the Aberrant Evolutions anomaly), specifically for the world wounder.Please pilfer away! And yes, I think some might need a bit of mechanics tweaking, especially in terms of EP costs. For example, pounce for 2 EP at 7th isn't exactly in line with Paizo martials, and 2 EP to basically double the natural reach of two limbs might also be a bit on the cheap side in this case, and also needs to be limited to natural attacks, of course.


They have the kind of brutal, demoniac flair to them that I think would be perfect to add onto fiendish bodies and demonized allies.They were written for "monster bloodragers" so I sure hope so! And thanks! :smallbiggrin:

And I guess giving your party BSF super-sized hooked tentacles should be lovecraftian enough to also suit the vanilla 'urge's tastes. Especially if the tentacles also come with the ability to squeeze the life out of victims (constrict evo) and to inject a truly nasty radioactive poison which shuts down certain magic means of escape (blightburn mage cage poison evos)... :smalltongue:

[khadgar567]

Actually, I distinctly remember you coming up with the suggestion of using evos for the archetype's wild shape-esque utility feature, which is perfectly in line with the flavor and has worked very well. So you're at least partially and indirectly responsible for the more peaceful of the evos I posted above (such as tiny/diminutive sizes)! :smallsmile:

And btw, thanks a ton again for your help in finding that elusive last piece of the "wrathblood puzzle"!

Please pilfer away! And yes, I think some might need a bit of mechanics tweaking, especially in terms of EP costs. For example, pounce for 2 EP at 7th isn't exactly in line with Paizo martials, and 2 EP to basically double the natural reach of two limbs might also be a bit on the cheap side in this case, and also needs to be limited to natural attacks, of course.

They were written for "monster bloodragers" so I sure hope so! And thanks! :smallbiggrin:

And I guess giving your party BSF super-sized hooked tentacles should be lovecraftian enough to also suit the vanilla 'urge's tastes. Especially if the tentacles also come with the ability to squeeze the life out of victims (constrict evo) and to inject a truly nasty radioactive poison which shuts down certain magic means of escape (blightburn mage cage poison evos)... :smalltongue:

Or just to make hentai from mook

[Ethereal Gears]

I had to go back and reread the wrathblood thread. Man, I am sometimes strangely capable of actually helpful commentary on other people's homebrew stuff. :P

Anyway, I'll be looking to steal some wrathblood evos specifically to bolster the world wounder as soon as I have time to work on the nihilurge again. I may also, as suggested, incorporate some of them more generally for the base class. I have been thinking of removing the Aberrant Evolutions anomaly and simply creating a separate document with new, unique evolutions only available to nihilurges. If I do that, supplementing that list with some of the wrathblood's more disturbing, body horror-y options seems like a good fit.

[upho]

Or just to make hentai from mook:smallbiggrin: Exactly. Although I believe you can't go wrong with the classics like axes, swords or claws for a modest traditional look, nothing makes a statement and really grabs people quite like constricting tentacles, you know... I must confess they have me completely hooked, and I really have absolutely no idea why on earth people keep insisting they suck! When literally anyone will look positively radiant with a couple of glowing blightburn feelers!

......

Oh my...! :smalleek: I am so sorry for the bad pun indigestion! I tried to hold them in, but they just kept pushing and pushing and...! :smallredface:

[khadgar567]

:smallbiggrin: Exactly. Although I believe you can't go wrong with the classics like axes, swords or claws for a modest traditional look, nothing makes a statement and really grabs people quite like constricting tentacles, you know... I must confess they have me completely hooked, and I really have absolutely no idea why on earth people keep insisting they suck! When literally anyone will look positively radiant with a couple of glowing blightburn feelers!

......

Oh my...! :smalleek: I am so sorry for the bad pun indigestion! I tried to hold them in, but they just kept pushing and pushing and...! :smallredface:

no problem mate

[qazie]

@qazie: Glad you like the class. I cannot swear either of the two additional archetypes I'm planning for it will be done within 2 weeks, but it's not impossible. As is the perennial case with me, I am juggling way too many disparate homebrew projects simultaneously, some of which I am tentatively thinking I might try to actually publish as PDFs rather than just give away for free on the forums, so it's kind of difficult to know what things I will complete in which order. All I can say is as soon as anything nihilurge-related gets done, I will post an update in this thread straight away!

If it sounds at all interesting to you, I did create a "King in Yellow"-themed bloodline for my blood scion class (a kind of sorcerer-version of the magus). It can be found in the Bloodline Files folder accessible via THIS LINK. The bloodline in question is called the Sallow Bloodline.

Cheers,
- Gears

Thanks!, I read through some of your other Archetypes for the other classes as well and I was wondering, did you borrow some the ability's from the shadewright "World Deformer" for The Nihilurge or was it the other way around, just out of curiosity.

Also what were some of your ability ideas for the archetypes for The Nihilurge? I figure just in case you didn't get to end up doing the "King in yellow" stuff I would do some home-brew of my own to expand what you did (just for a personal game)

[Ethereal Gears]

Basically, I created the world deformer towards the very end of working on the shadewright. This is not to say I won't ever go back to it and create further archetypes, but it was among the last archetypes I created for the class during my first run. I'd reached a point where my shadewright archetypes (such as the anchorite, the crepuscularch and, indeed, the world deformer) were becoming so expansive and different from the main class that I was starting to feel some of them might be better off if converted to stand-alone base classes. So, basically, I created the world deformer, but then felt its concept was being too constrained by being welded to the shadewright chassis, so I decided to make a full-blown separate class out of that concept.

Right now, I'm working on a bunch of other homebrew things and it does sadly seem a bit unlikely I will be able to produce any additional nihilurge archetypes in the coming weeks. The ideas I have right now are: a fey-themed archetype that alters the base class quite a bit, basically channeling the First World to warp terrain and infusing dead matter with plant energies to animate minions. The other is the aforementioned mad decadent artist archetype, that uses Cha instead of Int and probably gets some weird musical/bardic/theatre-type abilities, as well as some some King in Yellow-inspired stuff. Lastly, I will also create an archetype that forms a permanent bond with an eldritch abomination (basically an eidolon) in place of gaining the vile bodies class features. I also have a vague idea for a "void channeler" that focuses more on damage and the deform ability and less on battlefield control and summoning. I am definitely going to get around to creating all of these eventually, because I find them to be inspiring ideas. I just might not be able to do it within a timeframe that works with regards to your game. Sadly, my ideas aren't really more concrete than this right now. I usually only start with a rather vague concept when I design something, and then it all takes shape during the writing process. I'm not one for dreaming up discrete abilities or spells separately and then forging them together into classes and archetypes, alas.

Cheers,
- Gears