Non-Fungible Finances

[Afgncaap5]

In a game we're playing the "old world" is gone but the remaining survivors are on an island that had a few pre-established settlements. My hermit/warlock was fine with this, but the rest of the group wanted to expand and explore a bit. So... long story short, I accidentally wound up as the ruler of an encampment of kobolds. Given the things that my hermit is dogmatic about, I said there wouldn't be feuding between the red scales and blue scales anymore, and started setting up a proper school. All in all, the kobolds seem happy with this.

Moving on, a bit later we went to an old enemy's tower when we learned the enemy might be dead. His goblin henchmen, assisted by some kobolds who didn't know about the change in rulership, were looting the tower which, well... we wanted to loot it too since winter was comin'. I got greedy and tried to see if I could pull the same "trading philosophy for friendship and work" agreement, but the goblins are pretty insistent that the only thing they want is money, which is in short supply. They're fine with helping us out, but being the minions that they were until their boss died recently, they're mainly concerned about money and not being punched a lot. The session ended there.

Any thoughts on how a hermit warlock on a temperate island could spontaneously generate a bunch of gold, or at least the idea of gold, for goblins? I'm trying not to bring in too much from real world economics for the sake of the DM, but I'm definitely already dabbling with that sort of thing.

At the end of the day I'll probably settle for telling the goblins that no, I can't actually pay them if all they want is money instead of the enlightenment my hermitic order can bring, but... I thought I'd bounce the idea around here.

[Spojaz]

If they only know that money "is good" and you get it for helping, and know nothing about where it gets it's value, they could probably be convinced to switch over to paper currency. Just show them that you will trade one of your notes for five of their gold, and then back again whenever they want. Soon, a wealthy individual will notice you can carry a lot more of these new paper bills at once, and you will be on your way.

Set up a printing press mint, and you could probably get, not only their help, but all their gold too.

[eastmabl]

You could always get the help from the goblins in promise for protection against other nasty things. I have to imagine that there's something big that goes bump in the night somewhere on the isle, and without their leader, the goblins might wind up on the big nasty's menu sooner or later.

Alternatively, you could cook up your own big nasty through illusionary matches.

[Slipperychicken]

Can't you pay them in supplies or some other good?

[EvilAnagram]

If they only know that money "is good" and you get it for helping, and know nothing about where it gets it's value, they could probably be convinced to switch over to paper currency. Just show them that you will trade one of your notes for five of their gold, and then back again whenever they want. Soon, a wealthy individual will notice you can carry a lot more of these new paper bills at once, and you will be on your way.

Set up a printing press mint, and you could probably get, not only their help, but all their gold too.

This is a good start. Once you convince them the paper has value, it does have value. Of course, regulating its value will be important on your rise to god of economics.

[Afgncaap5]

If I was Moist Von Lipwig or another character concerned with actually making money, the printing press is the way I'd go. As it is, I don't think I can really justify my "don't you see that money and society are both illusions that you don't actually need?" hermit to play into that kind of thing. Thanks, though!

[Talyn]

Well, you said that the "old world" is gone - are there mines (or precious metal deposits on the surface) in your "new world"?

Alternately, what was their old boss paying them in?

[NecessaryWeevil]

If the old world is gone and there are few established settlements (i.e. civilization), do coins in fact have much value? Maybe you'd be better off letting them have the coins while you get the "worthless" wood, stone, defensible location, leftover food supplies, and maybe any magic items since you're being so "reasonable."

[Mara]

Print money: Paper, wood, or stone coins. Have those coins be tradable for excess food and water that your kobolds produce. Watch an entire economy spring into existence.

[Sigreid]

Well, you could ignore the money and go for the not getting hit too much angle. Little Warlock Foo Foo hopp'n through the forest. Scooping up the goblins and bopping them on the head.

[Afgncaap5]

Their previous employer paid them in money. The island had enough civilization left on it before whatever combinations of cataclysms finally caught up with everywhere else. There's even a pretty big Drow shipping port in the caverns beneath the island, thanks to some underground extensions of the ocean. But the civilizations are small and apart from each other. So... while my hermit keeps arguing that money really has no value under the circumstances, the goblins' point is "Yes, but money is what we *want*."

Printing money would work if my hermit believed in the concept of money enough to pursue it far enough for me to think I could realistically make the connection between "money has no value" and "I can just make more things that have no value" in-game. I don't want to do that to the mostly post-medieval world we've got going here on a whim. (Also, I'm not sure how I'd build a printing press, though I've not doubt that I could figure something out.)

[Slipperychicken]

So... while my hermit keeps arguing that money really has no value under the circumstances, the goblins' point is "Yes, but money is what we *want*."

Your hermit needs to retake econ 101, because that's the definition of value.

If the goblins are willing to exchange goods and services for some quantity of gold, then by definition the gold is worth at least as much as those goods and services.

[Tanarii]

Your hermit needs to retake econ 101, because that's the definition of value.

If the goblins are willing to exchange goods and services for some quantity of gold, then by definition the gold is worth at least as much as those goods and services.but it also makes the goblins kind of stupid and the hermit right, if the goblins are the only ones that want that useless money. Makes them ripe to be abused by the unscrupulous in fact. They want something useless because they *think* it has some value, giving away things of value for (what now amounts to) peanuts.

Sounds like beads for Manhattan time to me. Have your hermit give them a short sharp lesson in the reason money is now worthless.

[EvilAnagram]

Hammer the gold into tools that have use and give it to the goblins.

[Slipperychicken]

but it also makes the goblins kind of stupid and the hermit right, if the goblins are the only ones that want that useless money. Makes them ripe to be abused by the unscrupulous in fact. They want something useless because they *think* it has some value, giving away things of value for (what now amounts to) peanuts.


The definition of value is what a good or service can be exchanged for. People exchange "useless" stuff all the time, and that is precisely what gives those things value.

If our hermit wanted to "teach the goblins a lesson", then he should gladly exchange some worthless gold for the goblins' useful goods and services. If the gold is indeed worthless, then the goblins will surely come to regret their decision later. If that comes to pass, then the hermit could simply return their goods to them and deliver a smug lecture.

[Afgncaap5]

Neither I nor the hermit are interested in teaching the goblins a lesson, really. I wound up asking them what they would spend it on, and they revealed that they wanted to keep it safe and hidden away somewhere where no one would get it. So... long story short I'm keeping the gold in a cave for them now so that no one can steal it from them if they're attacked directly. I guess these goblins have a sort of magpie-ish outlook on things. They said I could take whatever I felt was fair, so our group's gonna help ourselves to about a tenth of it all.


Hammer the gold into tools that have use and give it to the goblins.

Would gold tools be very useful? I'd imagine that they'd break easily, but I'm not really familiar with metallurgy or tool making.

[Tanarii]

Awesome. Glad you found a way to figure out underlying motivation and make it work to your advantage. Well played.


The definition of value is what a good or service can be exchanged for. People exchange "useless" stuff all the time, and that is precisely what gives those things value.Only when the value is going to be similar across multiple trades with multiple different groups. If only one group perceives something as having worth, and they give away something valuable (to everyone) in exchange for it, then turn around and try to trade that thing to someone else, they will fail. That makes it actually useless, not "useless" yet usable currency.

[EvilAnagram]

Would gold tools be very useful? I'd imagine that they'd break easily, but I'm not really familiar with metallurgy or tool making.
I mean, they wouldn't be great, but not every gold tool would break immediately. A gold shovel head or gold cutlery would work fine, though maintenance would be an issue.

[Sigreid]

I mean, they wouldn't be great, but not every gold tool would break immediately. A gold shovel head or gold cutlery would work fine, though maintenance would be an issue.

Gold shovel? I guess you buried your silver one.

[EvanescentHero]

Gold shovel? I guess you buried your silver one.

That's a pull I wasn't expecting to see here.