Battle Sorcerer applied to Pathfinder Sorcerer, fair?

[Spore]

Does the ACF for the Sorcerer feel ... fair for the Pathfinder sorcerer that receives many more goodies. Why do you ask I want it?

- normal sorcerer spellcasting
- do not loose caster levels due to DD/Eldritch Knight
- Dragon Disciple adds unwanted flavor, Bard spell list is not what I am looking for, Eldritch Knight still cannot cast in heavy armor
- Magus (or Eldritch Scion) is much too reliant on the Eldritch Pool/Arcana for my taste

I just want a full an arcane caster that has melee capability and that I can defend in arguments (because my DM feels increasing HD size and BAB as well as casting in armor is a huge thing)

[Honest Tiefling]

How is it applied? As a bloodline, or in place of one? Regardless, I think the answer to this question lies greatly in the type of game. If other people are also doing similar things (such as almost any type of cleric), I really cannot say that I would find it anymore problematic then a normal sorcerer. Probably a bit less then the Arcane bloodline, maybe a bit more then some of the weaker bloodlines.

Might I ask what sort of spells you are interested in? A DM might be more swayed by the argument that a Magus is often geared to dealing damage, taking over the role of the party fighter/those other guys with pointy objects. However, you could make the argument that a magus does NOT have as many buffing spells, debuffs, battlefield control or utility spells as you'd like for your playstyle. This way, not only are you not stepping on toes, you are actually contributing to the roles of others and helping them deal damage, how nice of you. Perhaps the DM would appreciate you not taking certain problematic spells, showing you can compromise?

[Psyren]

It's still T2, just like it was in 3.5, so sure. And not only do the bloodline spells negate the "1 fewer spell known per level" disadvantage, you can counter it even more with things like the Human FCB. So yeah, I'd consider it a viable archetype.

You can even combine it with most if not all of the other Sorcerer archetypes.

[legomaster00156]

Well, it's certainly better than (ugh) the Eldritch Scrapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/eldritch-scrapper).

[Spore]

I know it is viable. I know it WILL make for a very good archetype, even without bloodlines (which I didn't necessarily want to cut out TBH). I just have the fear that a smart spell selection and a cool-headed approach to spontaneous casters will cause my character to outshine the others, with a hint of "you munchkin you" by the DM and fellow players.

I have no worries that my DM will allow this but it is not as subtle as a God Wizard or a buffing oracle for that matter. I made a Dragon Disciple once that was quite blast heavy and the DM was distraught because his meticulously planned encounters literally (or is it figuratively when it's about make-believe like P&P?) just went up in smoke.

Because I plan an elemental based melee sorcerer with potential for more than just killing stuff since the campaign asks for solutions other than violence. The character should reflect my approach to the topic: He should prefer violence because it is has honor (I cannot say killing is fun in this context without sounding like a complete psycho) but should be able to offer solutions other than violence.

In a Pathfinder context I know why this feels unfair.

It's still T2, just like it was in 3.5, so sure. And not only do the bloodline spells negate the "1 fewer spell known per level" disadvantage, you can counter it even more with things like the Human FCB. So yeah, I'd consider it a viable archetype.

You have no real drawback other than getting spells a level later. But crossblooded has the same thing for arguably less impact (they gain more options not necessarily more "numbers").

I would rewrite the thing for Pathfinder as follows:
Hit Die: d8. -> no bloodline bonus spells

Base Attack Bonus: The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric. -> diminished casting

Class Skills: Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list. -> outright change, necessary?

Class Features

The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting: A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level).

They should have fewer spells so they should have to choose from buffs, blasts (I don't care what anyone says, blasts are extremely useful) and "solution spells" like Scrying or Dimensional Anchor.

[the_david]

You could just play a magus with the Eldritch Scion archetype instead: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classOptions/magus.html

[Vhaidara]

- Magus (or Eldritch Scion) is much too reliant on the Eldritch Pool/Arcana for my taste


You could just play a magus with the Eldritch Scion archetype instead: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classOptions/magus.html

I think he knows about that garbage archetype.

[Psyren]

I think he knows about that garbage archetype.

Disagree.


I know it is viable. I know it WILL make for a very good archetype, even without bloodlines (which I didn't necessarily want to cut out TBH). I just have the fear that a smart spell selection and a cool-headed approach to spontaneous casters will cause my character to outshine the others, with a hint of "you munchkin you" by the DM and fellow players.

If you can avoid this perception with a normal sorcerer you can avoid it with this one. Just don't go all out and you should be fine.

[Sacrieur]

I think he knows about that garbage archetype.

Yeah, what Psyren said.

The only ability it replaces is spell recall, which isn't needed when you're a spontaneous caster anyway.

And Knowledge Pool replacement is like eh, because you still get cool spells.

---

No matter what you build it won't be a magus, because only a magus can be the one and true gish; all others are false gishes.

The question here is whether you want to build a sorcerer with some melee options or a super-powered magical warrior.

[Vhaidara]

My issue with eldritch Scion isn't with what it replaces, its what it modifies. The modifications make it so it doesn't stack with pretty much any other Magus archetype.

On top of that, needing to spend arcane pool to access spell combat is an incredibly annoying tax.

[Psyren]

Kurald's handbook rated it "good" and he did a well-reasoned job of explaining why, so I'll just point to that. Also, there are folks for whom a Cha-based Magus would be a vital concept.

[Kurald Galain]

- Magus (or Eldritch Scion) is much too reliant on the Eldritch Pool/Arcana for my taste
Why is that? You can easily build and play it based on spellcasting, and only use your pool to enchant your weapon once per combat.


My issue with eldritch Scion isn't with what it replaces, its what it modifies. The modifications make it so it doesn't stack with pretty much any other Magus archetype.
The key to the scion is that it plays very differently than a normal Magus. If you expect it to do the same things, well, it doesn't. It focuses much more on the bloodline, and bloodrager 'lines are pretty powerful.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would not say that the replacement of Bluff with Intimidate is a necessary change, but I like the sound of it. But maybe I like the idea of people in 50 pounds of metal waving a sword in your face tends to be quite intimidating in many cases?

[Spore]

Why is that? You can easily build and play it based on spellcasting, and only use your pool to enchant your weapon once per combat.

I dislike the Magus spell list. Most nifty stuff is for the sorcerer spell list while the Magus/Bloodrager gets mostly the mainstays plus some specialized spells. Your point stands as the eldritch scion would not have much spell variety anyway forcing me to focus on the main spells but a sorcerer has more spells/day, more variety and simply lacks the ability to burst down enemies as badly (which is tbh an ability that isn't that interesting in most games to begin with).

[Secret Wizard]

It's not too OP, but you are honestly better off as an Occultist in terms of balance.

[dude123nice]

Kurald's handbook rated it "good" and he did a well-reasoned job of explaining why, so I'll just point to that. Also, there are folks for whom a Cha-based Magus would be a vital concept.

Kurald's handbook also says that Brilliant Energy is a bad enchantment because it reduces your to hit by four points. I assume this refers to the four points cost that could have been invested in accuracy. What he doesn't seem to get is that you could apply brilliant energy to a weapon that already has a base enchantment of +5, and since a weapon can't have a base enchantment greater than +5, even with arcane pool, this is in fact one of the few ways to actually boost the accuracy of a weapon that already has a +5 bonus.

He also implies that you could use arcane pool to add dancing to a weapon, let it go, and use arcane pool to enchant another weapon, even tough arcane pool can be used to enchant only one weapon at a time.

So, yeah, Kurald's handbook isn't the best magus handbook out there.

[Florian]

@Sporeegg:

Yes, it would be pretty much "unfair".
The main reason for this is, that it will affect your attribute distribution a lot and it will be easier to pay the "tax" that is having Cha as your casting attribute. You'd pretty much switch to playing an Oracle with a even better spell list and no curse.

[Psyren]

Kurald's handbook also says that Brilliant Energy is a bad enchantment because it reduces your to hit by four points. I assume this refers to the four points cost that could have been invested in accuracy. What he doesn't seem to get is that you could apply brilliant energy to a weapon that already has a base enchantment of +5, and since a weapon can't have a base enchantment greater than +5, even with arcane pool, this is in fact one of the few ways to actually boost the accuracy of a weapon that already has a +5 bonus.

He also implies that you could use arcane pool to add dancing to a weapon, let it go, and use arcane pool to enchant another weapon, even tough arcane pool can be used to enchant only one weapon at a time.

So, yeah, Kurald's handbook isn't the best magus handbook out there.

Great use of ad hominem there, but none of the above has anything to do with either the Eldritch Scion itself or the rationale used to explain its utility.

[dude123nice]

Great use of ad hominem there, but none of the above has anything to do with either the Eldritch Scion itself or the rationale used to explain its utility.

My post is meant to proove a point, namely that you should take all of his advice with a grain of salt. But if you want actual reasons, Ok then. Now pls tell me where in his guide do u find actual concrete info on how to play an Eldritch Scion well. The only info i see is what he givee in this thread and it basically ammounts to play bloodrager lite, and that is bad advice. U get a weathered down version of the bloodrage, with no ability scores boost, and the cost is horrible, a magus is one of the most swift action intensive classes in pathfinder, and there are some really cool uses for arcane points other than enchanting your weapon, such as spell reflection, and since almost all bloodline powers can only ne used in bloodrage, using them will eat away at your arcane points. And for those people saying that the loss of spell recall is unimportant on a spontaneous caster, you are wrong. Spell recall means extra spells per day, and since you loose that, the Eldritch Scion ends up with fewer spells per day than a normal magus.

[Novawurmson]

If you want to just play a Cha-based spontaneous Magus, there's the Mindblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/mindblade-magus-archetype) from Occult Adventures. It does replace an enormous amount, but it keeps spell combat and spellstrike and has plenty of its own goodies.

You could talk to your GM about using or adapting the DSP Wilder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder). D8 hd, light armor, 9th level manifesting, 3/4 BAB, and a few class features that are decent for melee, like Elude Attack and Surging Euphoria. There are several surge types that work well for melee - I've got a guide in my sig.

[dude123nice]

The Mindblade is Int-based.

[Kurald Galain]

If you want to just play a Cha-based spontaneous Magus, there's the Mindblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/mindblade-magus-archetype) from Occult Adventures. It does replace an enormous amount, but it keeps spell combat and spellstrike and has plenty of its own goodies.
He's int-based, though.

Otherwise it's a solid archetype, with the note that psychic casting works rather differently from arcane casting (e.g. no somatic components, tougher concentration checks, and so forth). Also, you get to add spells from the psychic's list, which has some nice gems for a gish.

[Novawurmson]

:smallredface: Whoops. Could have sworn I saw it swapped spellcasting. I even made a reference to it in a guide I'm working on - better change that, too.

[Spore]

If you want to just play a Cha-based spontaneous Magus, there's the Mindblade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/mindblade-magus-archetype) from Occult Adventures..

I will look into it but the main point is to actually play a (non dragon) bloodline themed melee character with more spell power than a Bloodrager or even a Magus can offer.

[Psyren]

The only info i see is what he givee in this thread and it basically ammounts to play bloodrager lite, and that is bad advice.

No - he said to capitalize on the bloodlines, which is very good advice. Many of them have abilities that don't need your mystic focus to activate (Aberrant for instance gives all of its abilities completely free of charge, and they are all very good - extra reach, sicken/nausea/fatigue/exhaustion immunity, 50% fortification, and staggering criticals - which work on your spells too by the way - and 60ft. blindsight at the capstone. All supernatural and thus undispellable. Show me a regular magus that can do all of that.) Or Arcane, which gives you Resist Energy + Haste/Displacement + Form of the Dragon all as a single swift action for 1 EP, and extra free AoOs against enemy spellcasters, which includes monsters using SLAs (there are many, many of those.) Or Destined for a +5 luck bonus to all saving throws, reroll attacks for 1 EP and add +10 insight as a free action, roll a DC 20 fort save to negate your death from damage, and auto-confirm all your criticals, which is damn painful combined with Spellstrike. I could go on.


Spell recall means extra spells per day, and since you loose that, the Eldritch Scion ends up with fewer spells per day than a normal magus.

Spell Recall is overrated, if you really need more ammo then runestones are things that exist (and pearls for the normal magus too.) They're cheaper for you too, much like metamagic rods, because your list caps out sooner than a fullcaster relative to your WBL. You have better things to use your pool on.

[dude123nice]

No - he said to capitalize on the bloodlines, which is very good advice. Many of them have abilities that don't need your mystic focus to activate (Aberrant for instance gives all of its abilities completely free of charge, and they are all very good - extra reach, sicken/nausea/fatigue/exhaustion immunity, 50% fortification, and staggering criticals - which work on your spells too by the way - and 60ft. blindsight at the capstone. All supernatural and thus undispellable. Show me a regular magus that can do all of that.) .

This is not true. They do need mystic focus to activate. Check this bit of text on the Bloodrager page on pfsrd.


When a bloodrager enters a bloodrage, he often takes on a physical transformation influenced by his bloodline and powered by the magic that roils within him. Unless otherwise specified, he gains the effects of his bloodline powers only while in a bloodrage; once the bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline immediately cease, and any physical changes the bloodrager underwent revert, restoring him to normal.

Most Aberrant powers, for example, don't specify that they work outside of bloodrage. People just assume they do. They are wrong. According to that little bit of text those powers only work during bloodrage or mystic focus. Most often it's only the capstone that is explicitly stated to work outside of bloodrage. And that is all the way at level 20.

And while i agree that destined and arcane are the two most awesome bloodlines, and maybe the only ones worth choosing for an Eldritch Scion, i still don't think those bonuses are really worth half your swift actions. A Magus has a lot of great uses for those. And because of the arcane point tax, you will run dry if your campaigning features multiple encounters a day, especially at lower levels. If only they made mystic focus duration scale with levels or something similar. Then this archetype would be acceptable, maybe even great. But it doesn't scale, and the archetype is garbage.

[Psyren]

This is not true. They do need mystic focus to activate. Check this bit of text on the Bloodrager page on pfsrd.



Most Aberrant powers, for example, don't specify that they work outside of bloodrage. People just assume they do. They are wrong. According to that little bit of text those powers only work during bloodrage or mystic focus. Most often it's only the capstone that is explicitly stated to work outside of bloodrage. And that is all the way at level 20.

And while i agree that destined and arcane are the two most awesome bloodlines, and maybe the only ones worth choosing for an Eldritch Scion, i still don't think those bonuses are really worth half your swift actions. A Magus has a lot of great uses for those. And because of the arcane point tax, you will run dry if your campaigning features multiple encounters a day, especially at lower levels. If only they made mystic focus duration scale with levels or something similar. Then this archetype would be acceptable, maybe even great. But it doesn't scale, and the archetype is garbage.

Fine - even if you need mystic focus active to use most of these, that's still 1 point/action every 2 rounds. Very few combats go longer than 4-5 rounds anyway - you can get plenty of use of your bloodline without running dry, and some abilities are still passive.

The archetype is only garbage for people who don't know how to use one.

[Vhaidara]

I personally feel it's terrible because of the lack of stacking with other archetypes. Bladebound+Kensai for life, and I would love to make that charisma based.

[Kurald Galain]

I personally feel it's terrible because of the lack of stacking with other archetypes. Bladebound+Kensai for life, and I would love to make that charisma based.

Well, it still stacks with Staff Magus :smallbiggrin:

To be fair, many good archetypes don't stack with other good archetypes. Just because it can't combine with your favorite archetype doesn't make it terrible, after all. Personally I like Hexcrafter a lot, and Kensai doesn't become terrible just because it doesn't work with Hexy.

[Kurald Galain]

Fine - even if you need mystic focus active to use most of these, that's still 1 point/action every 2 rounds. Very few combats go longer than 4-5 rounds anyway - you can get plenty of use of your bloodline without running dry, and some abilities are still passive.

The archetype is only garbage for people who don't know how to use one.

Indeed. Three combats of four rounds each means you'll need six pool points, which you can have around level six, or level four if you spend a feat on it. Completely not a big deal. There's not many classes that can do more than that, at that level.

Yes, the Scion should avoid arcana that use pool points. So what? There's plenty of other arcana to go around, such as Empower, Arcane Familiar, or Spell Blending.

[Spore]

Since the main question is debatable (remember when we used to talk about sorcerers and not derail into a Magus debate?) I actually want the thread to go in the direction of the magus. Because for all the alternatives to medium BAB sorcerers, the Mindblade has caught my attention.

I cannot however, judge the psychic spell list but it feels insanely useful! The list is quite long and most stuff feels useful but not overpowered. I have read about the casting process of psychic spells being entirely somatic, with no verbal components. Is that true?

[dude123nice]

Indeed. Three combats of four rounds each means you'll need six pool points, which you can have around level six, or level four if you spend a feat on it. Completely not a big deal. There's not many classes that can do more than that, at that level.

Yes, the Scion should avoid arcana that use pool points. So what? There's plenty of other arcana to go around, such as Empower, Arcane Familiar, or Spell Blending.

You will also need between 1 and 3 more pool points for enchanting your blade, depends on wether you have enduring blade,and even then on how close to one another the encounters are. You could also take the feat that gives you extra pool points, but that is another problem, that you need to take so many feats and arcanas just to fix the archetype, and even then you still loose out on swift actions.

[Florian]

Since the main question is debatable (remember when we used to talk about sorcerers and not derail into a Magus debate?) I actually want the thread to go in the direction of the magus. Because for all the alternatives to medium BAB sorcerers, the Mindblade has caught my attention.

I cannot however, judge the psychic spell list but it feels insanely useful! The list is quite long and most stuff feels useful but not overpowered. I have read about the casting process of psychic spells being entirely somatic, with no verbal components. Is that true?

Careful with that. Psychic spellcasting replaces V/S with Emotion and Thought components, that change how a psychic caster interacts with the game world. You'll be immune to some things like grappling or silence, but quite vulnerable to other things, like spell with [Fear] or [Emotion], as well as conditions like shaken.

[Psyren]

You will also need between 1 and 3 more pool points for enchanting your blade, depends on wether you have enduring blade,and even then on how close to one another the encounters are. You could also take the feat that gives you extra pool points, but that is another problem, that you need to take so many feats and arcanas just to fix the archetype, and even then you still loose out on swift actions.

No, you don't need to enchant your blade. That's a "nice to have" - WBL lets your weapon keep up with CR-appropriate encounters just fine, especially when you don't need to spend wealth on resisting things like nausea and exhaustion or things like spell-less flight like a regular magus would.


Careful with that. Psychic spellcasting replaces V/S with Emotion and Thought components, that change how a psychic caster interacts with the game world. You'll be immune to some things like grappling or silence, but quite vulnerable to other things, like spell with [Fear] or [Emotion], as well as conditions like shaken.

The key there (besides Logical Spell) is to be sure your arsenal includes some spells without somatic components, as those are the ones that can be cast even if you are shaken. Sorcerers and magi have plenty to choose from.

[dude123nice]

No, you don't need to enchant your blade. That's a "nice to have" - WBL lets your weapon keep up with CR-appropriate encounters just fine, especially when you don't need to spend wealth on resisting things like nausea and exhaustion or things like spell-less flight like a regular magus would.

At this point, why even use Eldritch Scion instead of bloodrager? Since you can't learn all spells on your spell list like a regular magus and you want to specialize on combat you won't have a lot of room left for spell combat anyway. And a two handed weapon, pounce through primalist archetype, rage and feats like power attack, blooded arcane strike, etc. you should be able to surpass the Eldritch Scion in damage. So why try to play a bad mix between magus and bloodrager if you just want to do the same thing you would as a bloodrager?
EDDIT: Eddited for spelling mistakes.

[Manly Man]

No matter what you build it won't be a magus, because only a magus can be the one and true gish; all others are false gishes.

If you count third-party stuff, Psychic Warrior > Magus, in my opinion.

[dude123nice]

If you count third-party stuff, Psychic Warrior > Magus, in my opinion.

Isn't psywar only Wis-based?

[Manly Man]

Isn't psywar only Wis-based?

There's also the difference that the PsyWar's powers have a lot more in terms of utility, and are more buffing than straight damage. They're great at whacking things, and the Martial Kineticist archetype is also a wonderful blasting gish, and powers are far more flexible in application (on the whole, there are always exceptions to such general, sweeping statements) than most spells on the Magus list.

[Kurald Galain]

There's also the difference that the PsyWar's powers have a lot more in terms of utility, and are more buffing than straight damage. They're great at whacking things, and the Martial Kineticist archetype is also a wonderful blasting gish, and powers are far more flexible in application (on the whole, there are always exceptions to such general, sweeping statements) than most spells on the Magus list.

Really? You are aware that the Magus gets the full Silent Image line, almost every shapechange spell in the book, Dispel Magic, Teleport, and a large assortment of battlefield control spells? That's a lot of exceptions to your general, sweeping statement, then :smallbiggrin:

[Manly Man]

Bah. I meant that they can get a lot more stuff that isn't combat-based, or at least primarily useful outside of engaging opponents.

I haven't slept in about twenty hours, so my brain is kinda frazzled at the moment.

[Psyren]

At this point, why even use Eldritch Scion instead of bloodrager? Since you can't learn all spells on your spell list like a regular magus and you want to specialize on combat you won't have a lot of room left for spell combat anyway. And a two handed weapon, pounce through primalist archetype, rage and feats like power attack, blooded arcane strike, etc. you should be able to surpass the Eldritch Scion in damage. So why try to play a bad mix between magus and bloodrager if you just want to do the same thing you would as a bloodrager?
EDDIT: Eddited for spelling mistakes.

Because Bloodragers play radically differently? If I wanted to pounce with a big two-hander, of course I'd go with Bloodrager. But if I want a more surgical character who spellstrikes with a scimitar or whip, I wouldn't. Besides, Magi have many ways to pounce too. Bloodragers also don't get Spell Combat, Spellstrike, any Arcana, or Fighter Training, the latter of which gives an ES Magus access to unique feats like Martial Versatility and Teleport Tactician that Bloodragers can't get.

Also, "learning all Magus spells" is hardly a selling point; most of them just spam their signature attack spell (e.g. Shocking Grasp/Snowball/Frostbite etc) round to round with the odd utility spell thrown in as needed. You can have an excellent layout whether your spells known are limited or not, and Page of Spell Knowledge and consumables are things that exist too.

Other reasons:

1) Crunchwise, you may want to play a spontaneous/Cha-based Magus - some players like Magus but hate the extra bookkeeping that comes with slot preparation, or they might want to play a race with a Cha bonus instead of an Int bonus, or both. They may also have a GM that likes messing with the spell book. Being spontaneous also means you don't need to plan your metamagic in advance (and adding Spontaneous Metafocus lets you keep using that spell with Spell Combat.)

2) Fluffwise, your desired character may be a Magus that isn't "book-smart." You might be a race where wizardry is farfetched, like a goblinoid (Hobgoblins in particular hate wizardry) and having such magic come from his blood unwillingly yet give him an edge can be a fun concept to roleplay. With a spellbook, the character always has the option to not use it.

3) As discussed previously, Eldritch Scion can do some unique tricks that other magi can't, as well as having class features and spells that Bloodragers don't get. What you end up with if you build smart is a whole that is more than the sum of its parts.

4) It gives another interesting single-class entry into Dragon Disciple.