Psiotheurgist Uses

[Zombulian]

Hey all, I was just looking at the Psiotheurgist feat from Dragon 349. The way it works is it requires Spell Focus (School) and has a corresponding discipline of Psionics. Whenever you cast or manifest something from whatever school or discipline you chose, you add your ML to your CL, or your CL to your ML. Now with theurgery shenanigans I have a feeling this could get out of hand, but most damaging spells have a CL cap at least (besides Venomfire:smalleek:).

The first idea I came up with was a Beguiler Theurge that looked something like this:
Illumian
Beguiler 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Mind Mage 6

Using Precocious Apprentice for early entry and the Krau Sigil (with Enhanced Sigils) and Practiced M/C to keep your CL and ML equal. No double 9's in this build, but it'll be really hard to resist your illusions and you'll be able to make them HUGE.

What else neat can we do with this?

[Rubik]

Hey all, I was just looking at the Psiotheurgist feat from Dragon 349. The way it works is it requires Spell Focus (School) and has a corresponding discipline of Psionics. Whenever you cast or manifest something from whatever school or discipline you chose, you add your ML to your CL, or your CL to your ML. Now with theurgery shenanigans I have a feeling this could get out of hand, but most damaging spells have a CL cap at least (besides Venomfire:smalleek:).

The first idea I came up with was a Beguiler Theurge that looked something like this:
Illumian
Beguiler 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Mind Mage 6

Using Precocious Apprentice for early entry and the Krau Sigil (with Enhanced Sigils) and Practiced M/C to keep your CL and ML equal. No double 9's in this build, but it'll be really hard to resist your illusions and you'll be able to make them HUGE.

What else neat can we do with this?A single level of a manifesting class with the Magic Mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) -- I suggest ardent, for easy Mantle access and ease of learning new powers -- gets full ML progression for just that one level, since your ML equals your HD. So for one level and a couple of feats, you double your CL/ML for whatever you take Psiotheurgist for, AND get full manifesting, if you choose ardent, as the ardent can learn powers based on his ML, not his class level. Psychic Chirurgery abuse, ho!

[Zombulian]

A single level of a manifesting class with the Magic Mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) -- I suggest ardent, for easy Mantle access and ease of learning new powers -- gets full ML progression for just that one level, since your ML equals your HD. So for one level and a couple of feats, you double your CL/ML for whatever you take Psiotheurgist for, AND get full manifesting, if you choose ardent, as the ardent can learn powers based on his ML, not his class level. Psychic Chirurgery abuse, ho!

Yeah true the Ardent abuse can get *really* out of hand. I just chose Beguiler/Psion for int synergy and reduced power. Cleric/Ardent/Psychich Theurge could go crazy.

[Rubik]

Yeah true the Ardent abuse can get *really* out of hand. I just chose Beguiler/Psion for int synergy and reduced power. Cleric/Ardent/Psychich Theurge could go crazy.Psychic theurge wouldn't do much for an ardent with Supernatural Transformation (Psionics). The PrC wouldn't affect the ardent's ML, though it would grant powers known and class-based pp.

[Zombulian]

Psychic theurge wouldn't do much for an ardent with Supernatural Transformation (Psionics). The PrC wouldn't affect the ardent's ML, though it would grant powers known and class-based pp.

Ohhhh I see how the Supernatural Transformation works in this now. Why does Magic Mantle matter in this?

[Rubik]

Ohhhh I see how the Supernatural Transformation works in this now. Why does Magic Mantle matter in this?Because spell-like abilities and psi-like abilities aren't entirely interchangeable -- unless you have the Magic Mantle, in which case psi-like abilities ARE spell-like abilities for you, due to the more-than-just-transparency effect it invokes.

[Chronos]

Quoth Zombulian:

Using Precocious Apprentice for early entry and the Krau Sigil (with Enhanced Sigils) and Practiced M/C to keep your CL and ML equal.
Precocious Apprentice isn't even needed here. Improved Sigil: Krau already qualifies you for early entry, and is less rules-questionable to boot.

[Zombulian]

Precocious Apprentice isn't even needed here. Improved Sigil: Krau already qualifies you for early entry, and is less rules-questionable to boot.

Oh my gosh you're right.

[Rubik]

If you do my trick above, Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) will apply to every manifesting class you've got. So if you're a wizard 5/casting PrC 10/ardent 1/psywar 1/psion 1/lurk 1/wilder 1, you've got a base caster level of 15, and a manifester level of 20 for each of your manifesting classes.

So if you take Psiotheurgist, your CL for any spell you cast of the type you choose will be 15+20+20+20+20+20, or CL 115.

[Zombulian]

If you do my trick above, Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) will apply to every manifesting class you've got. So if you're a wizard 5/casting PrC 10/ardent 1/psywar 1/psion 1/lurk 1/wilder 1, you've got a base caster level of 15, and a manifester level of 20 for each of your manifesting classes.

So if you take Psiotheurgist, your CL for any spell you cast of the type you choose will be 15+20+20+20+20+20, or CL 115.

Mm that last bit seems dubious. I don't think it means total manifester level all together... does it?

[Zombulian]

So then what about something like Ardent 1/Cleric 4/Dweomer Keeper 10(or Divine Oracle)/Psychic Theurge 5? Using Psiotheurgist and Supernatural Transformation and getting them tasty, tasty double 9's.

Actually Supernatural Transformation is so crazy I feel dirty even thinking about the possibilities. When triple 9's seem easily attainable I get uncomfortable.

[Rubik]

So then what about something like Ardent 1/Cleric 4/Dweomer Keeper 10(or Divine Oracle)/Psychic Theurge 5? Using Psiotheurgist and Supernatural Transformation and getting them tasty, tasty double 9's.

Actually Supernatural Transformation is so crazy I feel dirty even thinking about the possibilities. When triple 9's seem easily attainable I get uncomfortable.Ardent + Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) is kinda worse than triple 9s. After all, you can get all psionic powers through Psychic Chirurgery, StP erudites get both powers and arcane spells, and you can get all divine spells as arcane spells through various means, such as the Southern Magician feat, Rainbow Servant, and the Child of Eberron dragon archetype.

Psionic powers through Psychic Chirurgery.
Convert Spell to Power erudite converts all arcane spells to psionic powers, including wizard, sorcerer, and bard.
Child of Eberron converts all druid spells to arcane spells.
Dragon casting and rainbow servant convert all cleric spells to arcane spells.
Southern Magician converts all the other divine spells to arcane spells.

So that's all the powers and spells from psion, psion disciplines, psywar, lurk, psychic rogue, sorcerer, wizard, druid, cleric, bard, paladin, and ranger, at the very least, along with all the weird ones that you don't see often, like wu jen.

[Zombulian]

Ardent + Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) is kinda worse than triple 9s. After all, you can get all psionic powers through Psychic Chirurgery, StP erudites get both powers and arcane spells, and you can get all divine spells as arcane spells through various means, such as the Southern Magician feat, Rainbow Servant, and the Child of Eberron dragon archetype.

Psionic powers through Psychic Chirurgery.
Convert Spell to Power erudite converts all arcane spells to psionic powers, including wizard, sorcerer, and bard.
Child of Eberron converts all druid spells to arcane spells.
Dragon casting and rainbow servant convert all cleric spells to arcane spells.
Southern Magician converts all the other divine spells to arcane spells.

So that's all the powers and spells from psion, psion disciplines, psywar, lurk, psychic rogue, sorcerer, wizard, druid, cleric, bard, paladin, and ranger, at the very least, along with all the weird ones that you don't see often, like wu jen.

Oh well yea obviously, because you'll have actual PP progression and stuff. I was just thinking that if you can just take a double 9 build or something and add 1 level of Ardent and a couple feats and get triple 9's it's a little silly. Obviously it's not the best way to go about it.
Also unrelated question but came from me thinking about an Psiotheurgist Divine Oracle build. Can you cast illusions through some sort of divination you cast? I'm trying to imagine a BBG who watches from hidden location and tricks PC's.