Armor Enhancement that Removes ACP

[Gale]

I remember seeing in a book somewhere an armor enhancement that took remove the armor check penalty entirely from whatever it was applied to. But I can't seem to be able to find it anywhere and Google isn't helping either. Did I hallucinate this enhancement or does it actually exist?

[FocusWolf413]

Is it Nimble?

[Darrin]

Is it Nimble?

Nimbleness (MIC p. 13) lowers ACP by 2. Hellforged template (DMGII p. 278) will also improve it by 1.

I'm not sure if there's anything official in 3.x that removes ACP entirely. I was thinking it might be Halfweight (FR Underdark p. 70), but I checked the text and it doesn't affect ACP at all.

[Gale]

Halfweight sounds close, but it's not exactly what I was thinking. I might just be delusional on this one.

[Fenryr]

Buoyant from MIC removes all ACP on Swim checks. Beyond that I only know about Nimble as posted above. Mithral armor helps as well.

[Thurbane]

Good chance it may have been third party material - I'll have a look at some of my books when I'm at home.

[Curmudgeon]

Armor lubricant (Races of Faerûn, page 158) temporarily (1d4 hours) reduces ACP of metal armor by 1.

[Agent 451]

I remember seeing in a book somewhere an armor enhancement that took remove the armor check penalty entirely from whatever it was applied to. But I can't seem to be able to find it anywhere and Google isn't helping either. Did I hallucinate this enhancement or does it actually exist?

Could you be thinking of Clothborn Armor from the Sword and Sorcery Relics and Rituals book (p. 154)? Regardless of the type of armor it is added to, it changes the max dex, arcane spell failure, and armor check penalty to those of padded armor. It retains the original AC, but the armor check penalty is now zero. It's 3.0 third party, but I believe that it was reprinted/updated in a 3.5 book (along with actual enhancement bonus, which does not appear in Relics and Rituals).

[Maxrim]

Another one you might be thinking of is the Book of Eldritch Might's Greater Maneuvering (+2 enhancement). Also in that book is the non-greater version for 2 less ACP at +1 cost, and a number of enhancements that only apply to some checks but remove the whole ACP for +1 for those checks.

[Thurbane]

I checked Arms and Armor 3.5 (Bastion Press) but all I could find was Grace (a +1 enhancement that increases max Dex by 2, and lowers ACP by 3).

[LudicSavant]

Masterwork reduces ACP by 1. Mithral reduces it by 3. Nimble reduces it by 2. That's already a 0 ACP full plate, yeah?

[zergling.exe]

Masterwork reduces ACP by 1. Mithral reduces it by 3. Nimble reduces it by 2. That's already a 0 ACP full plate, yeah?

I want to say that mithral already includes the masterwork ACP reduction like it includes the price. But I'll check quick.

Edit: Yes, by examples from the DMG, mithral already includes the masterwork ACP reduction in its adjustment.

[darkdragoon]

Dragonlance's Item of Renown, Fame etc. perhaps?

[LudicSavant]

I want to say that mithral already includes the masterwork ACP reduction like it includes the price. But I'll check quick.

Edit: Yes, by examples from the DMG, mithral already includes the masterwork ACP reduction in its adjustment.

Ah right. Make it Hellforged, then. Now it's 0 ACP.

[Curmudgeon]

I want to say that mithral already includes the masterwork ACP reduction like it includes the price. But I'll check quick.

Edit: Yes, by examples from the DMG, mithral already includes the masterwork ACP reduction in its adjustment.
Examples are nice when they're properly executed, but they're often not. In this particular rules case, there is no possibility of mithral armor not being masterwork.
Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. There being no physical case of mithral non-masterwork armor, there is then no rules case for mithral non-masterwork armor in the statistics. "Always masterwork" is a rule; it affecting the price is just one example application of that rule.

[LudicSavant]

Examples are nice when they're properly executed, but they're often not. In this particular rules case, there is no possibility of mithral armor not being masterwork. There being no physical case of mithral non-masterwork armor, there is then no rules case for mithral non-masterwork armor in the statistics. "Always masterwork" is a rule; it affecting the price is just one example application of that rule.

So which is it? Is Mithral -3 or -4?

[Curmudgeon]

So which is it? Is Mithral -3 or -4?
I've added highlighting for you:

Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

[LudicSavant]

Examples are nice when they're properly executed, but they're often not.


Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

Uhm? That's what zergling.exe was already saying, and what I already agreed with. I don't know why you're raising an issue with his examples, since the examples in question already say that it's a reduction of 3.

Anyways, this means that Nimble Mithral Hellforged Full Plate is ACP 0.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't know why you're raising an issue with his examples...
The issue with examples is they're not a reliable tool to clarify the rules. This time the examples were right. My point is that you don't need examples for this issue; the rules text is adequate without them.

[LudicSavant]

My point is that you don't need examples for this issue; the rules text is adequate without them.

It's more ambiguous than you're giving it credit for. I've seen a wide variety of tables rule it both ways. Actually, in my experience, the "the examples aren't a reliable tool" tables usually said it was -4. It's something I've gotten used to seeing tables differ on over the years.

Not only that, but official sources (Sage, CustServ, etc) have come down on both sides of this issue.

If you can't see why it's ambiguous, I'll attempt to explain:


Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type.

The "thus" wording implies that this is not a special rule unique to adamantine weapons and armor, but instead a direct result of the fact that they are masterwork quality (and simply reiterating what the effects of being masterwork are).

Note that none of the other entries for "always masterwork" special materials mention this. It's just implied from there on out. For example:


Darkwood

This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.

Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5.

Dragonhide

Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded mail for a creature two sizes smaller, one suit of masterwork half-plate for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or suit of full plate for a creature four sizes smaller. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.

Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.

Dragonhide armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type.

Dragonhide has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10.

The same goes for Mithral. It doesn't clarify, for instance, that Mithral weapons get a +1 enhancement bonus to hit from being masterwork. It's just assumed, because that's something that gets applied to every masterwork weapon, and it says it's masterwork.

Let's also take a look at the wording of Mithral:


Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonus is increased by 2, and armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0).
Note is says it's lessened by 3. It doesn't say "3 less than a non-masterwork version of this item." It doesn't say "lessened by 3, including the reduction from masterwork quality." It just says that the factor of being made from mithral lessens the armor check penalties by 3. Just like the description of Masterwork says that the factor of being masterwork lessens the armor check penalties by 1. Nowhere does it say that it's including the masterwork bonus in this figure (it only says it's included in the price). Nowhere is it said that the general rules for being masterwork are not stacked on this.

Also, note, after listing these various properties of being Mithral, it says:

Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well
Wording suggests that this is in addition to other properties. You apply the "made of mithral" properties (which does not include stuff like "+1 enhancement bonus to hit"), and you apply the "masterwork" properties (which does).



Always masterwork" is a rule; it affecting the price is just one example application of that rule.

Contrast Darkwood and Mithral:


To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.



Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

Edit: Oh, and if that wasn't enough, Sage Advice, Dragon #293, clarifies that Masterwork and Mithral bonuses do stack, and that it's -4.


The reduction for mithral and masterwork stacks.

On the other hand, I've also seen a CustServ response that said that it's -3. The same CustServ response, though, said that the example trumped the text (and pointed out as an example of this "Even though the text for Mithral armor would have you think that a Mithral Chain Shirt is 12.5lb, there's a specific listing of it on DMG pg20 being 10lb, so it's 10lb"). Everyone's all over the place on this. Which is pretty much the point: It's ambiguous.

[Thurbane]

Anyways, this means that Nimble Mithral Hellforged Full Plate is ACP 0.

Can you get Mecahnus Gear armor (-10 ACP) to 0?

As well as the above mentioned armor enhancements/modifications/materials, there are a few feats and class features that reduce ACP as well, although that is chewing into character resources...

[LudicSavant]

Can you get Mecahnus Gear armor (-10 ACP) to 0?

As well as the above mentioned armor enhancements/modifications/materials, there are a few feats and class features that reduce ACP as well, although that is chewing into character resources...

Greater Maneuvering Armor (From Complete Book of Eldritch Might) reduces your ACP to 0. Not "lessens it by an amount." Reduces it straight to zero for a +2 bonus. But of course, that's a third party sourcebook. It's not hard to do if you are lenient enough on allowing sources (e.g. 3.0, Pathfinder, third party, and Dragon Magazine material), but I don't know of a cost-efficient way to do it off the top of my head without such sources. Whereas doing it for Full Plate doesn't require any uncommon sources and is pretty cost-effective (DMG II for Hellforged, PHB for Mithral, MIC for Nimbleness).

So is 0% ASF full plate. Mithral, twilight, feycraft, githcraft, thistledown padding full plate. (DMG II for Feycraft and Githcraft, Races of the Wild for Thistledown, Explorer's Handbook for Twilight, PHB for Mithral)

[Curmudgeon]

So is 0% ASF full plate. Mithral, twilight, feycraft, githcraft, thistledown padding full plate.
The goal is 0 ACP. ASF is a completely different thing. Thistledown, for example, worsens ACP.

[LudicSavant]

The goal is 0 ACP. ASF is a completely different thing. Thistledown, for example, worsens ACP.

I am obviously aware of that, as I already clearly said how to get 0 ACP. Multiple times. :smallannoyed:


Nimble Mithral Hellforged Full Plate is ACP 0.

[Curmudgeon]

I am obviously aware of that, as I already clearly said how to get 0 ACP. Multiple times. :smallannoyed:
You responded to a request to get 0 ACP on Mechanus Gear armor with a comment about 0% ASF on full plate armor. Was that supposed to be helpful? If so, I don't see how. :smallconfused:

[LudicSavant]

You responded to a request to get 0 ACP on Mechanus Gear armor with a comment about 0% ASF on full plate armor. Pretty sure the first, larger paragraph didn't say anything at all about ASF. Why are you only looking at the offhand comment at the end?

You can get 0 ACP on any armor using the Greater Maneuvering +2 armor enhancement from the Complete Book of Eldritch Might from Malhavoc Press and Monte Cook.

You can also get 0 ASF at the same time, on either Full Plate or Mechanus Gear. In the case of Mechanus Gear, +1 Greater Maneuvering, Blended Quartz, Thistledown, Feycraft, Githcraft, Twilight Mechanus Gear and 1 level in Spellsword (which doesn't sacrifice any caster levels) will make it 0 ASF, 0 ACP Mechanus Gear.

I usually just get Full Plate though, because it's more cost effective and is more likely to be allowed by a DM.

[Thurbane]

Another one you might be thinking of is the Book of Eldritch Might's Greater Maneuvering (+2 enhancement).


Greater Maneuvering Armor (From Complete Book of Eldritch Might) reduces your ACP to 0.

So...exactly what the OP originally asked for then?

[LudicSavant]

So...exactly what the OP originally asked for then?

Yup! :smallsmile:

[Vertharrad]

Weightless[has no weight, doesn't encumber the wearer, acp reduced by 5, increases max dex by 4, reduce sfc by 10, and movement rate not reduced; market price: +2 bonus](Bastion Press Arms and Armor p.75), this is the best I've come across for special abilities.

[Thurbane]

Weightless[has no weight, doesn't encumber the wearer, acp reduced by 5, increases max dex by 4, reduce sfc by 10, and movement rate not reduced; market price: +2 bonus](Bastion Press Arms and Armor p.75), this is the best I've come across for special abilities.

Weird...I own Arms and Armor, and completely missed this one. Are you looking in the 3.0 version or the 3.5 update?

At home with my book, this must be the 3.0 version. Weightless is now on p.117, and is handled differently: weight becomes 0, ASF is reduced by 10%, ACP is reduced by 2, and Max Dex is increased by 2. +1/+2 bonus, depending on original armor type.

[Agent 451]

I went through my books and found the updated version of Clothborn armor. It's in the Player's Guide to Fighters and Barbarians, p. 133. It's a straight 21,500 gp addition to any armor, and changes all of the armor stats (except AC, which is the same as the original armor) to that of padded armor.

[Vertharrad]

Weird...I own Arms and Armor, and completely missed this one. Are you looking in the 3.0 version or the 3.5 update?

At home with my book, this must be the 3.0 version. Weightless is now on p.117, and is handled differently: weight becomes 0, ASF is reduced by 10%, ACP is reduced by 2, and Max Dex is increased by 2. +1/+2 bonus, depending on original armor type.

Yes the 3.0 version...I was unaware there was a 3.5 Arms and Armor book for Bastion Press. Is it the same name or differently named?

[Thurbane]

Yes the 3.0 version...I was unaware there was a 3.5 Arms and Armor book for Bastion Press. Is it the same name or differently named?

More or less the same name: Arms & Armor 3.5. I got a copy through Amazon recently.

You can see the preview here (http://www.bastionpress.com/Downloads/Arms_Preview.pdf).

Different cover art, as well:

http://s1.postimg.org/hqc3okzq7/51_Duq_YPx6_EL.jpg