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Laesin
2007-05-30, 08:25 PM
Having read the two recent threads on druids and monks I am extremely tempted to play a gestalt character combining them. We've already houseruled away the monk's alignment restrictions so I am tempted by Druid//Monk Human with Vow of poverty and the shapeshifting variant does anyone see any glaring weaknesses in this build?

DraPrime
2007-05-30, 08:34 PM
I don't see a glaring weakness. I do see a great oppurtunity though. In Complete Champion there's a Prc that actually makes the "wild" monk that you're look for.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-30, 08:47 PM
The only glaring problem is that monk unarmed damage doesn't stack with natural attack damage (such as claw or bite) and that flurry doesn't stack with Multiattack/Multiweapon Fighting. Other than that, a Dire Bear with an unarmed damage of 4d6 (after size considerations, possibly larger with the right spells) and it's strength modifier is going to be nasty in melee combat.

Draz74
2007-05-30, 08:53 PM
I still say Druid//Ninja is better. Sudden Strike does stack with wildshaped natural weapons. You get more skills, more Wisdom synergy ...

Laesin
2007-05-30, 09:39 PM
Like I said I'm planning on using the shapeshifting variant rule from PHBII so no dire bear etc. Mainly I intend to use forms for mobility although nothing stops me from using unarmed strikes in those forms. With strength bonuses from them that should work well.

Douglas
2007-05-30, 09:57 PM
Druid//Swordsage. You get most of the same stuff, plus a lot more.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-30, 10:01 PM
Like I said I'm planning on using the shapeshifting variant rule from PHBII so no dire bear etc. Mainly I intend to use forms for mobility although nothing stops me from using unarmed strikes in those forms. With strength bonuses from them that should work well.

Well, I don't see what you are getting from Monk. You can get saves elsewhere, unarmed damage generally isn't too good compared to some options you get, flurry never occurs unless you get a full attack, which generally means being next to them to get beat on yourself.

Personally, I'd go Barbarian. You get the frenzy, D12 hit die, increased move in all forms, and full BAB. Failing that, I'd go Rogue. You get your Reflex save, which is the only one Druid is missing, Evasion to get some use out of it, Trapfinding to keep from getting blowng up, 8+int mod skill points, and sneak attacks.

JaronK
2007-05-30, 10:29 PM
Having read the two recent threads on druids and monks I am extremely tempted to play a gestalt character combining them. We've already houseruled away the monk's alignment restrictions so I am tempted by Druid//Monk Human with Vow of poverty and the shapeshifting variant does anyone see any glaring weaknesses in this build?

This is actually an incredible combination, one of the strongest in Gestalt. Monks are weak on their own, but the Druid abilities stack very nicely with them.

That said, if you can PrC out of Monk at level 12, that would be advised... Superior Unarmed Strike or other feats can handle the unarmed damage, and there are better classes to take at that point. Monk 11/Warblade 9//Druid 20, for example, works great. Better BAB, nice manuevers such as Raging Mongoose, Stances, and other bonuses make it much better. Kensai is another strong one.

JaronK

Ramza00
2007-05-30, 11:00 PM
get out of monk after lvl 11, consider doing an initiator or incarnate class (which have some good options for monks, improving monk damage, stunning fist dcs, ac, damage, attack, mobility, ....).

The best would probably be Unarmed Swordsage 3, Monk 2, Shadow Sun Ninja 10, Master of Nine 5

JaronK
2007-05-30, 11:12 PM
Another option would be Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Warblade 9//Druid 20, taking Superior Unarmed Strike to keep your unarmed damage up there. Shou Disciple progresses flurry, so you still get all your attacks, but this way your BAB is +18, which is respectable.

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-30, 11:21 PM
If you're going to go initiator, then don't bother with Monk at all, just go straight Swordsage and pwn everything.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-30, 11:27 PM
Here's fun times: Paladin 3/Monk 2/Sun Soul Monk 9/Kensai 6//Druid 20. Make sure you cast such spells as Girallon's Blessing and Bite of the Weretiger.

Take the Serenity feat, and your Paladin Cha-stuff becomes Wis based instead and your levels stack. Wis to AC, Wis to saves, flaming burst/brilliant energy fists, enchantable body weaponry, and full druid casting. Oh, and you also can create more natural attacks for yourself via Druid spells, which you can use Lion's Charge to unload with.

Logic
2007-05-30, 11:29 PM
Here's fun times: Paladin 3/Monk 2/Sun Soul Monk 9/Kensai 6//Druid 20. Make sure you cast such spells as Girallon's Blessing and Bite of the Weretiger.

Take the Serenity feat, and your Paladin Cha-stuff becomes Wis based instead and your levels stack. Wis to AC, Wis to saves, flaming burst/brilliant energy fists, enchantable body weaponry, and full druid casting. Oh, and you also can create more natural attacks for yourself via Druid spells, which you can use Lion's Charge to unload with.

Except you are forgetting that due to alignment conflicts, you lose either druid powers or paladin powers.

Ramza00
2007-05-30, 11:33 PM
If you're going to go initiator, then don't bother with Monk at all, just go straight Swordsage and pwn everything.
Monk gives you 2 more attacks per round via flurry. Shadow Sun Ninja progresses monk damage, flurry, and a couple other things.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-30, 11:37 PM
Monk gives you 2 more attacks per round via flurry. Shadow Sun Ninja progresses monk damage, flurry, and a couple other things.

Diamond Mind gives you a 9th level maneuver which gives you a whole extra turn worth of attacks, which you won't be able to get if you have too many levels of monk. There's all sorts of ways to get lots of extra attacks. Shadow Hand Ninja's abilities are sub-par at the very least. Straight Swordsage is almost always better.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-30, 11:52 PM
Except you are forgetting that due to alignment conflicts, you lose either druid powers or paladin powers.

Damn. I knew I had forgotten something.

Tellah
2007-05-31, 12:45 AM
I was working on a Barbarian/Warshaper/Master of Many Forms//Druid build for an Eberron campaign. Good times, and while Barbarian is kind of a weak choice generally, I love the idea of a shriveled old Talenta halfling shapeshifting into utter monstrosities.

Ramza00
2007-05-31, 12:48 AM
Diamond Mind gives you a 9th level maneuver which gives you a whole extra turn worth of attacks, which you won't be able to get if you have too many levels of monk. There's all sorts of ways to get lots of extra attacks. Shadow Hand Ninja's abilities are sub-par at the very least. Straight Swordsage is almost always better.

I agree normally with Shadow Sun Ninja being subpar, in gestalt its different, you have druid giving you high str and damage now you need a delivery mechanism for that attack. Flurry gives you 2 more attacks. Shadow Sun Ninja allows you to retain your IL up and gives you a few maneuvers. In time Master of Nine will allow you to pay back all the maneuvers you lost for Shadow Sun Ninja.

And you only lose 1 IL for 2 lvls of Monk. You can still easily get 9th lvl manuevers via lvl 18, or you can get them even sooner with ToB items.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 12:49 AM
I was working on a Barbarian/Warshaper/Master of Many Forms//Druid build for an Eberron campaign. Good times, and while Barbarian is kind of a weak choice generally, I love the idea of a shriveled old Talenta halfling shapeshifting into utter monstrosities.

Actually, Barb is one of the nastiest of the 'tank' classes. Gets the biggest hit die, Rage for +4 to Str and Con (eventually +6), and increased speed to all forms of movement. Really good class. Some of the nastiest of broken melee builds use Barbarian.

skywalker
2007-05-31, 01:56 AM
I'm gaming with a guy playing a druid/monk right now. He owns. Your choice is excellent.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-31, 02:44 AM
Anything gestalt rocks unless you make a horrid choice like Barb/Fighter. Even that combo should rock, as you can use the Fighter part to switch out for PrC's, allowing you to reap the benefits of high-end Barbarian abilities like DR, Greater Rage, and Tireless Rage, while having all the bonus feats implied in Fighter dip.

Honestly, Monk does better pairing with Wizard to vastly increase survivability (although VoP is right out, due to cost of spellbook). Wizards get two other saves, wheras the druid only gets one. It also improves a Wizard's BAB, but not the druids. And it increases the Wizard's HD, which it does not do for the Druid. In short, most of the stuff a Monk gives, the druid already has. Rogue gives evasion, the Reflex saves the druid lacks, and a LOT more damage potential with sneak attacks (animal companion for flanking).

Illiterate Scribe
2007-05-31, 04:54 AM
Except you are forgetting that due to alignment conflicts, you lose either druid powers or paladin powers.

There is a LN and CN version of the paladin - the Enforcer and Anarch respectively. They'ld work.

Jack_Simth
2007-05-31, 05:53 AM
Wisdom to AC, Wisdom as a primary casting stat, all good saves, Druid class features, Monk speed boost, 4+ skill points per level. All you need is a way to eventually get your own Wishes so that you can get Inherent bonuses to your stats as well. One of the top combos when Gestalting Core classes.

Vow of Poverty comes with it's own set of restrictions - I'd advise checking with your DM to see if you can have the *free* Holly and Mistle divine focus for the Druid without violating your oath; in the strictest sense, you're not permitted it under Vow of Poverty. However, it has a cost line of "-" in the equipment section, so *most* dm's will permit it.

It'll be a fairly easy to make the build effective. Do note that the Jack of All Trades role is a trap - you can fill most party roles, but you can't do all of them effectively. High roll obviously Wis, second Con; you're not using "normal" Wildshape, so third either Dex or Strength (for a combatant), intelligence (for a skillmonkey), or Charisma (for a faceman).