[3.5] Determining CL for a Ur-Priest Nar Demonbinder

[Valwyn]

As the title says, I have a question. Let's say you have a Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 10. What would the CL for each class be if you base your ND's CL off your UP levels?

An UP's CL is his UP levels + (other spellcasting classes levels/2).

A ND's CL is Nar demonbinder level + levels in one other spellcasting class.

Is this about right? They seem really low.
UP CL: 4 UP +((5 SB +1 ND +10 MT)/2) = CL 12
ND CL: 1 + 12 UP = CL 13

The thing were your UP and ND CLs are based off each other confuses me a bit.

(Sorry for all the abreviations.)

[Flickerdart]

Nar Demonbinder: "The character's caster level is equal to his Nar demonbinder level plus his levels in one other spellcasting class of his choice." You have 4 Ur-Priest levels, not 12. Your Nar Demonbinder CL is 5, before being progressed by Mystic Theurge.

Ur-Priest: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes." You have 6 non-Ur-Priest casting class levels. Your Ur-Priest CL is 7, before being progressed by Mystic Theurge.

[Valwyn]

That makes more sense. Thank you. A shame the caster levels are so low, but I still like the concept.

[golem1972]

Unless you are going for something specific with Nar Demonbinder, wouldn't Sublime Chord work better?

Savage Bard 6 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Mystic Theurge +8 is the standard build I believe.

[Urpriest]

Nar Demonbinder: "The character's caster level is equal to his Nar demonbinder level plus his levels in one other spellcasting class of his choice." You have 4 Ur-Priest levels, not 12. Your Nar Demonbinder CL is 5, before being progressed by Mystic Theurge.

Ur-Priest: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes." You have 6 non-Ur-Priest casting class levels. Your Ur-Priest CL is 7, before being progressed by Mystic Theurge.

This is half the story.

The other half is what, specifically, being "progressed" means. In particular, PrCs that progress your caster level say that they increase your caster level "as if" you had taken levels in your original class. So in this case, while Mystic Theurge doesn't count as levels in a spellcasting class, it does increase any of your caster levels as if it were Urpriest levels...which includes your Nar Demonbinder caster level.

[Troacctid]

...which includes your Nar Demonbinder caster level.

Correction, your Nar Demonbinder class level.

[Urpriest]

Correction, your Nar Demonbinder class level.

...no? It increases your Urpriest level for the purpose of calculating your Nar Demonbinder caster level. It does not increase your Urpriest level for the purpose of calculating your Nar Demonbinder class level. I'm not even sure what that would mean, are you saying it would give you class features earlier or something?

[Troacctid]

...no? It increases your Urpriest level for the purpose of calculating your Nar Demonbinder caster level. It does not increase your Urpriest level for the purpose of calculating your Nar Demonbinder class level. I'm not even sure what that would mean, are you saying it would give you class features earlier or something?

Your Ur-Priest caster level includes your Nar Demonbinder class levels, not caster levels. Increasing your Nar Demonbinder caster level doesn't affect your Ur-Priest caster level—only actual class levels do that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

While you would normally only count your class levels in most cases, Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm) has fairly unique wording when it comes to determining your caster levels:

"This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."

You get to add your MT class level to your UP and ND levels prior to determining any of your caster levels. Your Mystic Theurge levels basically get double-dipped when determining your caster levels, due to its wording. Your class levels for determining your caster levels are SB = 5, UP = 14, and ND = 11 at Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 10.

UP = 22 = (5+11)/2 + 14
ND = 25 = 14 + 11

[Urpriest]

Your Ur-Priest caster level includes your Nar Demonbinder class levels, not caster levels. Increasing your Nar Demonbinder caster level doesn't affect your Ur-Priest caster level—only actual class levels do that.

Which is why I didn't say that your Nar Demonbinder caster level affects your Urpriest caster level. Your Nar Demonbinder class level affects your Urpriest caster level. However, as explained below, your effective Nar Demonbinder class level (for purposes of calculating CL, including Urpriest CL) is increased by Mystic Theurge.


While you would normally only count your class levels in most cases, Mystic Theurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm) has fairly unique wording when it comes to determining your caster levels:

"This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."

You get to add your MT class level to your UP and ND levels prior to determining any of your caster levels. Your Mystic Theurge levels basically get double-dipped when determining your caster levels, due to its wording. Your class levels for determining your caster levels are SB = 5, UP = 14, and ND = 11 at Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Nar Demonbinder 1/Mystic Theurge 10.

UP = 22 = (5+11)/2 + 14
ND = 25 = 14 + 11

This was what I was trying to get at. Note that the wording is actually a little worse for Mystic Theurge, since that "this essentially means" part indicates that the real rule is hidden somewhere else. Most PrCs that progress casting explicitly say something like "you gain an increase in caster level...as if you had also gained a level in [the class you're advancing]".