Plane Shift curiosity

[Nibbens]

So, for those of you not familiar, plane shift states:

You move yourself or some other creature to another plane of existence or alternate dimension. If several willing persons link hands in a circle, as many as eight can be affected by the plane shift at the same time. Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination. Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends. The creatures need to find other means if they are to travel back (including casting plane shift again).

However, it never mentions what type of specific knowledge is required to shift to that plane.

When looking at the examples provided by the Knowledge: Planes (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/knowledge.html#knowledge) check, it states that knowing the names of the planes, and recognizing the current plane require a DC 10 and 15 respectively.

Okay, that's wonderful. However, there seem to be some problem with create demiplane (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/createDemiplane.html#create-demiplane,-lesser).

If my friend has created a demiplane, and I learned that it exists, but no other details, it seems that according to the rules I should be able to

EDIT: use a staff which contains plane shift

(or astral project or etherealness (as per CDp) right to it.



And there's my problem/question. Does just base knowledge (that a Demiplane exists) give me enough knowledge of (Via DC10 planes check) it to travel to it? Heck, is the DC10 planes check even needed if I'm just told "Yeah, my ally told me that he has one. Boop, now I can travel to it."

If there's something I'm missing here, please let me know.

[Cruiser1]

If there's something I'm missing here, please let me know.
The challenging part about being able to Plane Shift to a plane isn't the Knowledge checks. Knowing a plane exists or being able to know whether you're on a plane doesn't mean you can actually shift to it. Plane shift requires a focus item specific to the plane you're shifting to, and it may be difficult to create or buy such a focus.

The PF SRD says the focus is "a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel", but doesn't say anything about how it get attuned. The 3.5 PHB says, "Focus: A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures. Forked rods keyed to certain planes or dimensions may be difficult to come by, as decided by the DM."

[Nibbens]

The challenging part about being able to Plane Shift to a plane isn't the Knowledge checks. Knowing a plane exists or being able to know whether you're on a plane doesn't mean you can actually shift to it. Plane shift requires a focus item specific to the plane you're shifting to, and it may be difficult to create or buy such a focus.

The PF SRD says the focus is "a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel", but doesn't say anything about how it get attuned. The 3.5 PHB says, "Focus: A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures. Forked rods keyed to certain planes or dimensions may be difficult to come by, as decided by the DM."

Planeshift isn't the problem (even though I used it for the example). The plane is still "accessible" through Astral Projection and Etheralness regardless of the rarity of the mystical (and mystifying - as there's no specific way to "attune" anything) tuning fork.

Let's assume then (for the sake of argument) that the transporter is using a staff that can cast Plane Shift. I'll go ahead a modify my original post to reflect this.

[Deophaun]

Seems to me you need an "intended destination." Without that, the spell doesn't know where to place you and should fail. Some knowledge of the geography or landmarks of the plane is necessary.

As for whether just knowing someone has a plane is enough to travel there, probably not. If I just know you have a car, it does nothing to help me pick out which car you have. But there are divinations that could give you that information: the creation of a new plane is something deities--or at least their higher-tier servants--would likely pay attention to.

[Nibbens]

Seems to me you need an "intended destination." Without that, the spell doesn't know where to place you and should fail.

I agree with this - and also seems to be replicated by the 5-500 mile randomness in your arrival. Indicating you don't need to know much about the plane, but exactly how much is the problem. lol.


Some knowledge of the geography or landmarks of the plane is necessary.

I would agree here, however it's not supported in the spell description or any outside info that I'm reading in the PSRD. I'm trying to bridge that gap.


As for whether just knowing someone has a plane is enough to travel there, probably not. If I just know you have a car, it does nothing to help me pick out which car you have. But there are divinations that could give you that information: the creation of a new plane is something deities--or at least their higher-tier servants--would likely pay attention to.

This is very true. Good point!

[Psyren]

When looking at the examples provided by the Knowledge: Planes (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/skills/knowledge.html#knowledge) check, it states that knowing the names of the planes, and recognizing the current plane require a DC 10 and 15 respectively.

Note that these guidelines don't actually apply to demiplanes. The Knowledge skill states:


Planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, planar magic)

Demiplanes are not mentioned; the DC 10 and DC 15 are meant to apply to well-known/fixed planes like The Abyss or the Plane of Air. Knowing that you've entered Otiluke's Obscure Oubliette dungeon demiplane that he created just yesterday the instant you step on it is another matter entirely.

This is not to say that you can't use Knowledge to find out where you are, but the GM has more license to set a higher DC, just like it would be a higher DC to identify a specific individual, or the coat of arms of a minor noble house.

[sleepyphoenixx]

What Psyren said. The basic knowledge check assumes that said knowledge is generally available, with more obscure or secret knowledge getting higher DCs.

There are probably some well known demiplanes (among scholars of planar lore at least), especially older ones or those that were involved in major hystorical events.
For a plane that no one but the creator actually knows about (like for example he only created it last week) there just isn't any knowledge available, no matter how high your check.
If it's been around for a while you may get some info with a knowledge or gather information check, but if it's new and secret you're going to have to resort to divination magic to find anything about it.

Astral Projection and Etherealness only transport you to the astral/ethereal plane, respectively. They don't move you to the demiplane you want.
Sure, you can reach some demiplanes from there, but you'll have to find them first if you don't know just where the demiplane is coterminous to the material plane and which of the two it's on.

As for what knowledge you need to successfully plane shift there's a bit more on that in MotP, but it's a 3.5 source. I'm not aware of anything similar in PF, but i don't play it much so someone else may know something.
Basically you need to find the right spot on the material (or other coterminous) plane to reach a demiplane, otherwise Plane Shift doesn't work.

[Nibbens]

Note that these guidelines don't actually apply to demiplanes.

Didn't see that. Good catch.


the DC 10 and DC 15 are meant to apply to well-known/fixed planes like The Abyss or the Plane of Air.

When I first read this, I thought you called the Abyss "fixed." Lol. I had to read it twice. There's a super nerdy d&d joke somewhere in there. :)

[Beheld]

The challenging part about being able to Plane Shift to a plane isn't the Knowledge checks. Knowing a plane exists or being able to know whether you're on a plane doesn't mean you can actually shift to it. Plane shift requires a focus item specific to the plane you're shifting to, and it may be difficult to create or buy such a focus.

The PF SRD says the focus is "a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel", but doesn't say anything about how it get attuned. The 3.5 PHB says, "Focus: A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures. Forked rods keyed to certain planes or dimensions may be difficult to come by, as decided by the DM."

This is another one of those stupid Pathfinder changes that make no sense and are completely worthless. Did they remove the 3.5 text that said forks are hard to get to make it so you could get to planes easier? Did they change it to "attuned" because they thought that would be harder for players to get, but completely forget that attuned doesn't actually mean anything, so they just made it go from a specific meaningful thing to a vague meaningless thing?

Did they realize that the rules in 3.5 where and explicit exception to the rules for spell component pouches, and that if you delete the exception then the rules for spell component pouches control?

"A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch."

Are you supposed to count how many tuning forks fit in a spell component pouch? Do your assorted Prisms that are all focuses for different spells also count against that limit?

RAW: you can planeshift to any plane in pathfinder, ask DM in 3.5
RAI: James Jacobs is dumb.
Workaround if your DM tries to cockblock you: Have your Wizard Planar Bind a bunch of Nightmares for the party, since Nightmares use an SLA, and therefore don't need to have the focus at all, they can take you to any plane.

[Psyren]

When I first read this, I thought you called the Abyss "fixed." Lol. I had to read it twice. There's a super nerdy d&d joke somewhere in there. :)

I hear you. I've always thought that was an interesting paradox with D&D; even the planes of pure chaos, like Limbo and the Abyss, have very fixed borders and fit in defined spaces within the cosmology. Can they truly be called Chaotic if they're not acting orderly at times or trying to encroach on the other outer planes?

The truly chaotic place seems to be the Far Realm/Dark Tapestry.