Need help Multiclassing Eldritch Knight with Bladesinger

[Vemynal]

Background:
A very long time ago I thought up a great character for a Pathfinder Magus but never got to us it. The tl;dr a bastard Half-Elf who is a servant/slave to the main family runs off with the families magic sword after it communicates with him to do so. Originally was gonna make the character a pure EK (sword bond seemed thematic) but with the release of Bladesinger I feel like my options have opened a bit.

I like the idea that the sword will communicate with the character and teach him the ways of being a Bladesinger over time.

Only hard line requirements are Half-Elf race and the first 3 levels will be Fighter (taking EK at 3rd level for the sword Bond).

I'm also thinking more of a finesse Dex build for his weapon/combat.

I've tried doing research on this as a multi-class but so far all I've seen is a single person on reddit saying "16BS/4EK" is the best M.C. option without explaining why. Same thing with someone else who said "EK12/BS8"

Any help? I'm a little lost on where to even begin lol

[djreynolds]

Background:
A very long time ago I thought up a great character for a Pathfinder Magus but never got to us it. The tl;dr a bastard Half-Elf who is a servant/slave to the main family runs off with the families magic sword after it communicates with him to do so. Originally was gonna make the character a pure EK (sword bond seemed thematic) but with the release of Bladesinger I feel like my options have opened a bit.

I like the idea that the sword will communicate with the character and teach him the ways of being a Bladesinger over time.

Only hard line requirements are Half-Elf race and the first 3 levels will be Fighter (taking EK at 3rd level for the sword Bond).

I'm also thinking more of a finesse Dex build for his weapon/combat.

I've tried doing research on this as a multi-class but so far all I've seen is a single person on reddit saying "16BS/4EK" is the best M.C. option without explaining why. Same thing with someone else who said "EK12/BS8"

Any help? I'm a little lost on where to even begin lol

Honestly, IMO, I think you want EK in levels of 3 and since you are getting two attacks with bladesinger I might just leave it at 17BS/3EK or 14BS/6EK, but the former is better because you can't stack attacks anyhow.

And if Half-elf is your guy, I would recommend 6 paladin for the save bonus but you would be very MAD, needing charisma, dex and int. I would reserve the Half-Elf concept for great roles. Other wise, Eladrin would make sense for the dex and int bonus and misty step once a short rest. 17BS would give you 9th level spells, 3EK to start would give you con saves, martial weapons, and action surge and weapon bond. You could wield a dagger or finesse a hand axe (DM approval) throw them till you get close and then melee with a dagger or hand axe. You will lose a feat but if you are going dex, you should have enough to net war caster and max out dex and int.

[CNagy]

If you were originally considering a pure Eldritch Knight, swinging all the way over to a 16th level Bladesinger seems drastic. Here are a few different paths you could take, from most EK to least.

EK18/BS2 -- You are basically an Eldritch Knight with Bladesong. 6ASIs, 3 attacks, 3rd level spells known and 4th level spell slots. Effective spellcaster level 8. You've got a lot of cantrips so you can grab a bunch of your choice from SCAG.

EK12/BS8 -- Much more the traditional Bladesinger. 6ASIs, 3 attacks, 4th level spells known and 6th level spell slots. Effective caster level 12. You've got access to some pretty nasty Wizard spells and the Eldritch Knight's ability to force someone to have disadvantage on their save after hitting them with an attack. This plays out basically as Attack x 3 (possible off-hand attack if the DM allows/you want TWF), and then a multi-target/area effect spell. Highly effective.

EK10/BS10 -- Oddly enough, this build felt the most Bladesinger to me. 5ASIs, 2 attacks, 5th level spells known and 7th level spell slots. Effective caster level 13. You have access to 5th level Wizard spells, the Eldritch Knight's Eldritch Strike, and the Bladesinger's Song of Defense. You don't have an obvious use for the 6th and 7th level spell slots, so they can represent an extra 65 hp when you get caught despite your high AC. This plays out as basically using War Magic to attack with one of the SCAG cantrips (Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade) and then attacking normally with your bonus action. Maybe you have Haste running, as well. You can still target opponents with spells require a saving throw after hitting them, which they will have to make with disadvantage.

EK8/BS12 -- More Wizard-heavy Bladesinger. 6ASIs, 2 attacks, 6th level spells known and 7th level spell slots. Effective caster level 14. Basically plays the same as 10/10 only now you don't get Eldritch Strike.

Personally, that's as low as I'd go if I wanted to play a martial Bladesinger, but in my opinion it was a mistake to make the Bladesinger a wizard subclass in the first place. The abilities worth getting on the Bladesinger are the 2nd level Bladesong (goes without saying) and the 10th level Song of Defense. The +Int to weapon damage is nice but not worth all of the durability you give up to get it--and the damage can be inferior to War Magic.

If the Eldritch Knight is basically there for the weapon bond, though, and you want 9th level Wizard spells, then it might be that rather than a dip into Fighter, you might benefit from a 3 level Warlock dip. Blade Pact will do the same thing, more or less, make use of your Half-Elf stat bonuses, give you 2 invocations, and 2 short-rest 2nd level spell slots. Not a bad deal. Not quite the Bladesinger of old, but not a bad deal.

[djreynolds]

If you were originally considering a pure Eldritch Knight, swinging all the way over to a 16th level Bladesinger seems drastic. Here are a few different paths you could take, from most EK to least.

EK18/BS2 -- You are basically an Eldritch Knight with Bladesong. 6ASIs, 3 attacks, 3rd level spells known and 4th level spell slots. Effective spellcaster level 8. You've got a lot of cantrips so you can grab a bunch of your choice from SCAG.

EK12/BS8 -- Much more the traditional Bladesinger. 6ASIs, 3 attacks, 4th level spells known and 6th level spell slots. Effective caster level 12. You've got access to some pretty nasty Wizard spells and the Eldritch Knight's ability to force someone to have disadvantage on their save after hitting them with an attack. This plays out basically as Attack x 3 (possible off-hand attack if the DM allows/you want TWF), and then a multi-target/area effect spell. Highly effective.

EK10/BS10 -- Oddly enough, this build felt the most Bladesinger to me. 5ASIs, 2 attacks, 5th level spells known and 7th level spell slots. Effective caster level 13. You have access to 5th level Wizard spells, the Eldritch Knight's Eldritch Strike, and the Bladesinger's Song of Defense. You don't have an obvious use for the 6th and 7th level spell slots, so they can represent an extra 65 hp when you get caught despite your high AC. This plays out as basically using War Magic to attack with one of the SCAG cantrips (Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade) and then attacking normally with your bonus action. Maybe you have Haste running, as well. You can still target opponents with spells require a saving throw after hitting them, which they will have to make with disadvantage.

EK8/BS12 -- More Wizard-heavy Bladesinger. 6ASIs, 2 attacks, 6th level spells known and 7th level spell slots. Effective caster level 14. Basically plays the same as 10/10 only now you don't get Eldritch Strike.

Personally, that's as low as I'd go if I wanted to play a martial Bladesinger, but in my opinion it was a mistake to make the Bladesinger a wizard subclass in the first place. The abilities worth getting on the Bladesinger are the 2nd level Bladesong (goes without saying) and the 10th level Song of Defense. The +Int to weapon damage is nice but not worth all of the durability you give up to get it--and the damage can be inferior to War Magic.

If the Eldritch Knight is basically there for the weapon bond, though, and you want 9th level Wizard spells, then it might be that rather than a dip into Fighter, you might benefit from a 3 level Warlock dip. Blade Pact will do the same thing, more or less, make use of your Half-Elf stat bonuses, give you 2 invocations, and 2 short-rest 2nd level spell slots. Not a bad deal. Not quite the Bladesinger of old, but not a bad deal.

Very cool builds.

But I like my eldritch knight "fully armed and filthy" in heavy armor and a great sword or polearm.

Do you think he might actually get more from an arcane trickster, other than con saves, thief gets light armor and good weapons and cunning action coupled with bladesong. The blade singer gets two attacks anyhow. And I wonder how uncanny dodge at 5th would couple with his spell slot damage reduction at 10th or 14th level. Heck I would go AT 3/ BS 17 or AT6/ BS 14. With a high intelligence and dex, expertise would go very far indeed.

[Vemynal]

If you were originally considering a pure Eldritch Knight, swinging all the way over to a 16th level Bladesinger seems drastic. Here are a few different paths you could take, from most EK to least.

omg marry me? lmao

Thank you for this write up! It gives me somewhere to start =)

[Zman]

You have one very important decision to make, more slashy or more magicy.

People have recommended EK3 or EK4 before moving to Bladesinger. This is a mistake. Why?? Because it means lvl9 or lvl10 before you get a second attack from Bladesinger. If EK 3 you don't get an ASI till 7th level.

I recommend...
EK6: Why? 2nd Attack, 2 ASI. Two Effective Caster levels when you take Wizard 1.
Then...
BS2.: Why? Needs Bladesong.
At EK6/BS2 you've got options depending on goal.

Option 1: 12 more levels of Bladesinger. 2 Attacks, 5AsI, 7th level casting, 8th level slots. More HP, action Surge, Con Save Prof, Int to damage capstone. EK6/BS14
Option 2: EK6/BS5, then EK12/BS5, then EK12/BS8. Why? 3rd level spells at lvl11, 3 attacks at lvl16. Ends with 6ASI, 3 Attacks, 4th Level Spells, 6th level slots.

Another alternative, EK4 then BS16, gives 8th level spells, 2 attacks at lvl10(ouch). Very delayed caster.


I'd recommend going EK6 then BS14. Strong earlier, then reaches for caster potential. Tough, better unarmored with Mage Armor and Dex20/Int16 by lvl6. AC18, 23 with Shield is super solid. Using a Rapier you've got good damage with Dueling, better with melee Cantrips, better when you get your second attack. With a solid melee base you jump into Bladesinger and you are off and running. And never forget your Action Surge.

[CNagy]

omg marry me? lmao

Thank you for this write up! It gives me somewhere to start =)

Haha, happy to be of service. :smallbiggrin:

[CNagy]

Very cool builds.

But I like my eldritch knight "fully armed and filthy" in heavy armor and a great sword or polearm.

Do you think he might actually get more from an arcane trickster, other than con saves, thief gets light armor and good weapons and cunning action coupled with bladesong. The blade singer gets two attacks anyhow. And I wonder how uncanny dodge at 5th would couple with his spell slot damage reduction at 10th or 14th level. Heck I would go AT 3/ BS 17 or AT6/ BS 14. With a high intelligence and dex, expertise would go very far indeed.

It depends on the character concept. Bladesinger enhances both Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters by increasing front-line survivability for the Eldritch Knight (via increased AC and concentration saves) and damage potential for Arcane Tricksters (an extra attack is Sneak Attack insurance.) It then enhances both classes through massively increased spellcasting power. Even just 4 levels of Bladesinger equates to 12 levels of EK/AT spell progression. Then both of the classes offer something to Bladesinger.

Eldritch Knight offers up the ability to cast a cantrip and attack (or even straight up cast a spell and attack if you take EK high enough) which is thematically fitting for the Bladesinger. But what EK really does is give the Bladesinger a consistent source of what amounts to the Sorcerer's Heighten metamagic; at 10th level, anyone the EK hits suffers disadvantage from his next spell. Hit multiple people (extra attacks) and you inflict disadvantage on multiple people. Action surge and you can either do it all in one round or you go all attacks one turn, to inflict disadvantage on saves for a veritable crowd of enemies on your next turn. Then you drop a fireball, or hold person, or whatever mean tricks your Bladesinger spell access has granted you.

The Arcane Trickster similarly offers disadvantage on saving throws, but on a target that you are already hidden from. With expertise in Stealth, an Arcane Trickster can pretty much ambush anyone and with the increased spellcasting of the Bladesinger, he's got access to a lot of things that a normal AT doesn't.

Which brings us back to concept: while you can argue that one is worth more than the other, or offers better options than the other, what can't be argued is that the two are interchangeable within a concept. They aren't. Either Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight is going to fit a person's character concept, and the one that does offers better advantages than the one that doesn't--because no matter what you gain from an alternate class, if you end up losing the stuff you wanted in the first place then it isn't a good deal.

[Rajah]

Looking through the Sword Coast book, can't pure EK's just use Booming blade on all 4 of their attacks at level 20? Am I reading that wrong? Bladesongs get 2 attacks. Does that mean they can hit twice with Booming Blade or Green Flame or whatever or do they have to choose between 2 mundane attacks and 1 melee attack + booming blade?

If you can get booming blade on every melee attack, wouldn't you only want 2 levels of Wizard for Bladesong and then use Ek goodness for the rest?

[Zman]

Looking through the Sword Coast book, can't pure EK's just use Booming blade on all 4 of their attacks at level 20? Am I reading that wrong? Bladesongs get 2 attacks. Does that mean they can hit twice with Booming Blade or Green Flame or whatever or do they have to choose between 2 mundane attacks and 1 melee attack + booming blade?

If you can get booming blade on every melee attack, wouldn't you only want 2 levels of Wizard for Bladesong and then use Ek goodness for the rest?

Booming blade is a Cantrip you cast that includes a si glee melee attack.

[Vemynal]

Question; with all these builds are we including the fact that Extra attack as a class feature does not stack between classes? Says so right in the PHB on page 164.

"If you gain the EA class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as with fighter). Similarly, warlock's Thirsting Blade doesn't give additional attacks if you have EA"

Looks to me like the EA gained by Bladesinger is worthless when multiclass with EK

[Zman]

Question; with all these builds are we including the fact that Extra attack as a class feature does not stack between classes? Says so right in the PHB on page 164.

"If you gain the EA class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as with fighter). Similarly, warlock's Thirsting Blade doesn't give additional attacks if you have EA"

Looks to me like the EA gained by Bladesinger is worthless when multiclass with EK

Correct, they do not stack.

But, "worthless" is far from the truth. 4 levels in EK give you a heal ability, Action Surge which is huge, Eldritch Knight bonded weapon, one additional caster level, so only two lost for slots. 4th gives you an ASI.
Starting as EK also nets you Proficiency in Con saves which is huge, and better proficiencies.

Hardly worthless...

[CNagy]

Question; with all these builds are we including the fact that Extra attack as a class feature does not stack between classes? Says so right in the PHB on page 164.

"If you gain the EA class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as with fighter). Similarly, warlock's Thirsting Blade doesn't give additional attacks if you have EA"

Looks to me like the EA gained by Bladesinger is worthless when multiclass with EK

The Extra Attack is redundant. The idea that it stacks hasn't been a function of any build. It frankly doesn't matter. The Eldritch Knight is a bit of an odd bird in that his special abilities specifically limit the number of attacks he makes on some turns. Any turn you wish to use War Magic, or it's improved 18th level version, you are giving up extra attacks to cast a spell and make 1 bonus attack. Any turn you aren't using War Magic or casting a spell, your effectiveness is basically that of a base class fighter. I imagine the idea was that by level 20, you can use your 4 attacks to mark a lot of targets and then blast them all (either in the same turn with action surge or the next turn) with one of your Evocation spells for big damage--the problem is that the Eldritch Knight doesn't get a lot of magic firepower. Basically, the Eldritch Knight is the fighter that suffers least from reduced number of attacks. Accepting only the basic Extra Attack feature (or Extra Attack 2 if you take EK to 11) is not a difficult thing to do when you make up for it with Hold Monster, or Polymorph, or Slow.

[Vemynal]

Edit - Top part of this post is just me analyzing the different options and why I think which options are better than others. the tl;dr I think 10/10 is the best option. At he bottom I have a question regarding whether its best to get 5th level spells sooner and delay the cool abilities of the classes or whether its better to get the cool abilities first.

Keep in mind, everything I post below is from the prospective of "What does EK gain by multiclassing with BS?" and "How does this relate to my characters theme". So there is some personal bias.

Firstly, a finesse utilizing Rapier is a 1d8 Piercing damage while a typical longsword is a 1d8 Slashing. A Finesse Scimitar can also be used for 1d6 Slashing and is considered Light for TWF. Using these as examples I was able to conclude that a sword wielding Dex based EK/BS wearing Light Armor does not suffer in A.C. or weapon damage. A level 20 EK wouldn't likely wield a 2handed weapon (without War Caster feat) due to somatic components of spells. We also all know about the ridiculous A.C. abuse a BS can perform so I largely ignored loss of Heavy Armor, Shields, and Str based weapons without considering them strongly as Cons.

EK18/BS2 – 1d10 & 1d6 hit dice (120 w/o con mod)
Cons: You lose Heavy Armor and Shield options (offset by Int to A.C.), lose your 4th attack, lose 1 ASI, and *you no longer have access to 4th level spells*; while you do have their slots.
*Losing 4th level spells by taking 2 levels of wizard perplexes me lol

Pros: Ritual Casting, an additional 5 cantrips known, gain Int to A.C. & Con Save (already proficient), +10 speed, Can regain two 1st level spells per short rest, Int & Wis Save Proficiency, Arcana & Insight Skill Proficiency.

Keep: Martial weapons, Fighting Style, ASI x6, 4 attacks (with Imp. War Magic), Action Surge x2 (with 30 ft teleport per use), Second Wind (+24hp), Reroll failed save x3, Weapon Bond, Eldritch Strike debuff

Rating: Par.
The primary difference between this build and EK 20 is the loss of 4th level spells and an ASI for increased utility in the form of save and skill proficiencies and an additional 5 cantrips known, in addition to having unrestricted access to spells from levels 1-3. My impression is that this build is Par for its losses to its gains because while losing access to 4th level spells hurts; gaining the cantrips utility and damage (added to War Magic) makes up for this.

EK12/BS8 – 1d10 & 1d6 hit dice (108 w/o con mod)
Cons: You lose Heavy Armor and Shield options (offset by Int to A.C.), lose your 4th attack, an ASI, lose 2nd use of Action Surge, 30 ft teleport with Action Surge, 2 failed save rerolls, lose Improved War Magic.

Pros: Ritual Casting, an additional 5 cantrips known, gain Int to A.C. & Con Save (already proficient), +10 speed, Can regain two 1st level spells per short rest, Int & Wis Save Proficiency, Arcana & Insight Skill Proficiency, *4th level spells known and 6th level spell slots*

Keep: Martial weapons, Fighting Style, ASI x6, 3 attacks, Action Surge, Second Wind (+18hp), Reroll failed save, Weapon Bond, Eldritch Strike debuff, War Magic.

Rating: Par
Use of 4th level spells, not restricted by EK options, allows for many interesting options of play and abuse with Eldritch Strike. Banishment, Blight, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, Polymorph, Stoneskin. + The previously mentioned removal of the Evo/Abjur restriction for spell level 1-3. This also allows for more spells per day to be used. Unfortunately it loses out of some damage potential via 2nd use of Action Surge and Imp War Magic; and utility lose from no Arcane Charge and lack of 2 uses of Indomitable Will. My Impression is that while it loses out over with damage it allows greater utility than EK 18/BS2.

EK10/BS10 – 1d10 & 1d6 hit dice (104 w/o con mod)
Cons: You lose Heavy Armor and Shield options (offset by Int to A.C.), lose your 3rd & 4th attack, an ASI, lose the 2nd use of Action Surge, 30 ft teleport with Action Surge, 2 failed save rerolls, lose Improved War Magic.

Pros: Ritual Casting, an additional 5 cantrips known, gain Int to A.C. & Con Save (already proficient), +10 speed, Can regain two 1st level spells per short rest, Int & Wis Save Proficiency, Arcana & Insight Skill Proficiency, Song of Defense; expend spells to reduce damage, *5th level spells known and 7th level spell slots. Effective caster level 13*. No real use for 6th or 7th level slots. Feed into Song of Defense?

Keep: Martial weapons, Fighting Style, ASI x6, 2 attacks, Action Surge, Second Wind (+16hp), Reroll failed save, Weapon Bond, Eldritch Strike debuff, War Magic,

Rating: Preferable
In exchange for your 3rd attack, which admittedly makes great use of Eldritch Strike, you gain uninhibited access to 5th level spells and Song of Defense which allows you to soak up damage by sacrificing spell slots. Since you can’t use the Extra Attack feature and cast spells (ignoring Action Surge use) the loss to damage output is minimal while the defensive and utility options are amazing. Offensively you now have access to Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Conjure Elemental, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Modify Memory, Planar Binding, Scrying, and Teleportation Circle!

EK8/BS12 – 1d10 & 1d6 hit dice (100 w/o con mod)
Cons: You lose Heavy Armor and Shield options (offset by Int to A.C.), lose your 3rd & 4th attack, an ASI, lose the 2nd use of Action Surge, 30 ft teleport with Action Surge, lose your last failed save reroll, lose Improved War Magic, lose Eldritch Strike.

Pros: Ritual Casting, an additional 5 cantrips known, gain Int to A.C. & Con Save (already proficient), +10 speed, Can regain two 1st level spells per short rest, Int & Wis Save Proficiency, Arcana & Insight Skill Proficiency, Song of Defense; expend spells to reduce damage, *6th level spells. Effective caster level 14*. No real use for 7th level slots. Feed into Song of Defense?

Keep: Martial weapons, Fighting Style, ASI x6, 2 attacks, Action Surge, Second Wind (+14hp), Weapon Bond, War Magic

Rating: Subpar
Lose your only use of Indomitable Will and Eldritch Strike abuse (ouch!) to access uninhibited 6th level spells such as; Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate, Mass Suggestion, True Seeing, Create undead, and Sunbeam. I’m making this Subpar because while you get all the amazing spells; at this point you’ve officially decided you’re going to focus less on melee combat efficiency and more on spell casting utility. With that in mind why not just go full Bladesinger?

EK6/BS14 – 1d10 & 1d6 hit dice (96 w/o con mod)
Cons: You lose Heavy Armor and Shield options (offset by Int to A.C.), lose your 3rd & 4th attack, an ASI, lose the 2nd use of Action Surge, 30 ft teleport with Action Surge, lose Indomitable Will x3, lose Improved War Magic, lose Eldritch Strike, lose 2 more ASI, lose War Magic.

Pros: Ritual Casting, an additional 5 cantrips known, gain Int to A.C. & Con Save (already proficient), +10 speed, Can regain two 1st level spells per short rest, Int & Wis Save Proficiency, Arcana & Insight Skill Proficiency, Song of Defense; expend spells to reduce damage, *7th level spells, 8th level slots. Effective caster level 15*, Song of Victory – Int mod to melee weapon damage while in Bladesong.

Keep: Martial weapons, Fighting Style, ASI x4, 2 attacks, Action Surge, Second Wind (+12hp), Weapon Bond

Rating: Poor.
Song of V is clearly less useful having lost earlier extra attacks *and* War Magic. Your turns are forced between attacking with a moderately increase melee attack or casting your spells; the only clear advantage of this build being that it has access to 7th level spells such as Delayed Blast Fireball, Etherealness, Finger of Death, Plane Shift, Prismatic Spray, Simulacrum, and Teleport. All amazing spells but again; at this point why not go full Bladesinger? You also lose out of 2 additional ASI (compared to previous builds) and also lose out on a single ASI compared to pure Bladesinger; which are useful for feats or for stat increases which this build greatly requires.

Final Thoughts
The two builds I find most preferable are EK18/BS2 and EK10/BS 10. Between the two I prefer EK 10/BS 10 because while you lose approx 16 hp, 2nd use of Action Surge, Arcane Charge, 2 uses of Indomitable Will, and Imp War Magic you gain Song of Defense for increase survivability, 4th & 5th level spells such as: Banishment, Blight, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, Polymorph, Stoneskin, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Conjure Elemental, Dominate Person, Geas, Hold Monster, Modify Memory, Planar Binding, Scrying, and Teleportation Circle. For a drop in burst damage from Action Surge loss you gain tons of utility and offensive magic capabilities to abuse with Eldritch Strike.



Regarding the Level Progression:
If I get Bladesong at level 8 or 9 then I had to choose between Eldritch Strike at level 12 and Song of Defense at level 20 or Song of Defense at level 17 and Eldritch Strike at level 20...I built this off the former option (thinking earlier Eldritch Strike would be better) but as I look at this I notice I dont get 2nd level spells til level 9, 3rd level spells til level 15, 4th at level 17, and 5th at level 19. When the 4th and 5th level spells show up doesn't bother me but that is a huge delay for the 3rd level spells! Full casters be throwing around 8th level spells and half casters like the Paladin have had 4th level spells for quite some time lol.

The other option is that I take EK at level 7 for War Magic then take all 10 levels of Bladesinger. I wouldn't get Bladesinging til level 9 and 2nd level spells til level 10 now; but I'd get 3rd by 12, 4th by 14, and 5th by 16. I wouldn't get Song of Defense til level 17 or Eldritch Strike til 20.

What are your thoughts?

[Zman]

I think your rating system is flawed, you are completely undervaluing levels in spells that are not EK spells. Or having 7th levels spells as a Bladesinger is extremely powerful. 4th level spells from BS is vastly superior to 4th level spells from EK. Wizard casting and options is huge. You've also miscounted ASI for EK6/BS14. That is 5 ASI which is the same as pure Bladesinger, although granted earlier.

Your perspective is only from 20th level which ignore when some of those builds are more powerful, vs pure Bladesinger for EK at that level. For instance at lol 9 EK6/BS now has mirror image and Blurr which are massive combat buffs, plus 1st level wizard spells. The EK spell list is very limited and has very few extra options. Here is more to the build than power at lvl20.

[Vemynal]

My over all point was not that the higher spell levels don't make you powerful; they do. But you strip away all the useful features of the EK to get them.
Once you cross the 10/10 threshold it's simply more optimal to be a pure Bladesinger and attain 9th level wizard spells.
I'd even argue that EK level 3 holds no value for Bladesinger; although a 2 level dip for Action Surge & Con proficiency sure doesn't hurt.

[Zman]

My over all point was not that the higher spell levels don't make you powerful; they do. But you strip away all the useful features of the EK to get them.
Once you cross the 10/10 threshold it's simply more optimal to be a pure Bladesinger and attain 9th level wizard spells.
I'd even argue that EK level 3 holds no value for Bladesinger; although a 2 level dip for Action Surge & Con proficiency sure doesn't hurt.

We weren't discussing optimal. Of we were discussing Optimal it'd be Fighter2/Diviner?18 with Defense, Full Plate, a Shield, action surge, con saves, Spell Master Shield and 9th level spells. AC26 every round, 9th levels Spells, etc.


The question shouldn't be most optimal, it's what best fulfills the concept and the right mix of martial and arcane. If we are going for optimal, we've already bypassed Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger. Also,Mehta really matters is fulfilling the character concept at the majority of levels and functioning at that level, not just lvl 20.

[CNagy]

We weren't discussing optimal. Of we were discussing Optimal it'd be Fighter2/Diviner?18 with Defense, Full Plate, a Shield, action surge, con saves, Spell Master Shield and 9th level spells. AC26 every round, 9th levels Spells, etc.


The question shouldn't be most optimal, it's what best fulfills the concept and the right mix of martial and arcane. If we are going for optimal, we've already bypassed Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger. Also,Mehta really matters is fulfilling the character concept at the majority of levels and functioning at that level, not just lvl 20.

Yeah, we kind of are. Optimal is a binary switch; you either are (approaching) optimal or you aren't. But don't make the mistake of thinking it is an overriding switch. What's being done here is called "optimizing within a concept." You can take any character idea and optimize it--you're just making it the best example of that type of character that you can without giving up too much to do it.

This is why concept is important: the OP originally mentioned the character as a Pathfinder Magus. The Pathfinder Magus is not a full spellcaster--it is a class whose spell list only goes up to 6th level, with those 6th level spells becoming available at level 16. So the idea that the character is losing access to Wish, Power Words, etc might matter to a character imagined as a Wizard, but a character imagined as a Magus was never going to get those spells anyway. The class also wasn't a full fighter, ending with a +15 BAB at 20.

The 10/10 can be built competitive at every level; that's not an issue. I started with 5 levels of Eldritch Knight, in order to get Extra Attack. Then 2 levels of Bladesinger to get Bladesong. Level 6 of EK was the second ASI (character level 8, in keeping with non-fighter classes) and level 7 got War Magic (damage boost well ahead of CL11). Levels 3 and 4 in Bladesinger (CL10 and 11) give wider access to 2nd level spells, third level slots, and the 3rd ASI (a level ahead of schedule.) EK 8 (4th ASI), 9 (4th level slots), 10 (Eldritch Strike) at CL14. Then Bladesinger for the remaining 6 levels, capping with the Song of Defense.

[Zman]

Yeah, we kind of are. Optimal is a binary switch; you either are (approaching) optimal or you aren't. But don't make the mistake of thinking it is an overriding switch. What's being done here is called "optimizing within a concept." You can take any character idea and optimize it--you're just making it the best example of that type of character that you can without giving up too much to do it.

This is why concept is important: the OP originally mentioned the character as a Pathfinder Magus. The Pathfinder Magus is not a full spellcaster--it is a class whose spell list only goes up to 6th level, with those 6th level spells becoming available at level 16. So the idea that the character is losing access to Wish, Power Words, etc might matter to a character imagined as a Wizard, but a character imagined as a Magus was never going to get those spells anyway. The class also wasn't a full fighter, ending with a +15 BAB at 20.

The 10/10 can be built competitive at every level; that's not an issue. I started with 5 levels of Eldritch Knight, in order to get Extra Attack. Then 2 levels of Bladesinger to get Bladesong. Level 6 of EK was the second ASI (character level 8, in keeping with non-fighter classes) and level 7 got War Magic (damage boost well ahead of CL11). Levels 3 and 4 in Bladesinger (CL10 and 11) give wider access to 2nd level spells, third level slots, and the 3rd ASI (a level ahead of schedule.) EK 8 (4th ASI), 9 (4th level slots), 10 (Eldritch Strike) at CL14. Then Bladesinger for the remaining 6 levels, capping with the Song of Defense.

I am familiar with optimizing around a concept, it is how I effectively build all of my characters. It is why I made recommendations ranging from EK2/BS+ to EK6/BS+ to EK6 then BS5 then EK12 then BS8. I also recommended EK4/BS+.

You recommend EK5 to start, I say 2, 4, or 6. I prefer 6 as it has extra attack 5, gives the second ASI early which is huge and grants two full Caster levels to the Wizard levels you start automatically giving you access to additional spell slots of one level higher.

The major questions that needs to be answered is how much magic does this character need?

[djreynolds]

It is the age old "dip" question. Of when.

Each case is vastly different. If you have a party of with 5 tanks, a bard, a rogue, healer... It changes the equation.

But before bladesinger, a wizard grabbed ek levels because he was more than likely going the armored caster route. But the bladesinger doesn't need the fighter extras right away. He is not going to be wearing armor, maybe leather. No shield. Con saves are big, but you have wisdom and can grab resilient con.

So the question is are you a lightly armored warrior with magic or a wizard who can hold his own when the monsters burst through the line. Also if you need the 3 attacks, you are warrior and need them sooner than later. A bladesinger gets 2 attacks. He gets bonuses to concentration saves. He gets full spell progression, do not screw that up. You need 17 levels for that.

You must say, I want the ek three attacks or I'm dipping ek on a 3level basis 3,6,9 etc. Your attacks do not stack either. You have no shield with bladesong, you have a finesse short sword from being an elf, if you have initial save proficiency in wis or con you'll end up grabbing resilient in wis or con anyhow. You do not need weapon bond. What you want is action surge.

So what is your concept, your role in the party? I would go, IMO, 20 levels of bladesinger. Maybe a dip of rogue for expertise.

[CNagy]

I am familiar with optimizing around a concept, it is how I effectively build all of my characters. It is why I made recommendations ranging from EK2/BS+ to EK6/BS+ to EK6 then BS5 then EK12 then BS8. I also recommended EK4/BS+.

You recommend EK5 to start, I say 2, 4, or 6. I prefer 6 as it has extra attack 5, gives the second ASI early which is huge and grants two full Caster levels to the Wizard levels you start automatically giving you access to additional spell slots of one level higher.

The major questions that needs to be answered is how much magic does this character need?

I initially thought about going EK6 to start, but decided on 5 because the benefits of getting Bladesong earlier seemed more useful than maxing out Dexterity a little earlier (because your Intelligence doesn't become as vital until you have wider access in Wizard spells, for the save or experience nastiness stuff.) 6/1 or 5/2, you end up with 2nd level slots and 1st level spells, so that's a wash.

I freely admit that if you are going to be the party's only spellcaster, being a classic-version Bladesinger is not the way to go. But that means that no one else is a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, or other Wizard. If the party has any of these, the EK/BS shines as a secondary spellcaster and front-line guy. And since DC is no longer pinned to spell level, the EK/BS is a solid debuffer that can rank up there with the best the full-caster classes have to offer.

[djreynolds]

I initially thought about going EK6 to start, but decided on 5 because the benefits of getting Bladesong earlier seemed more useful than maxing out Dexterity a little earlier (because your Intelligence doesn't become as vital until you have wider access in Wizard spells, for the save or experience nastiness stuff.) 6/1 or 5/2, you end up with 2nd level slots and 1st level spells, so that's a wash.

I freely admit that if you are going to be the party's only spellcaster, being a classic-version Bladesinger is not the way to go. But that means that no one else is a Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, Sorcerer, or other Wizard. If the party has any of these, the EK/BS shines as a secondary spellcaster and front-line guy. And since DC is no longer pinned to spell level, the EK/BS is a solid debuffer that can rank up there with the best the full-caster classes have to offer.

Would it, in your opinion, be advisable to go the other route and start off as a bladesigner to 6, and then grab EK? I get the con saves, but you can grab resilient con and spamming shield spells is a good way to avoid contact. And wisdom saves are big as well.

[CNagy]

Would it, in your opinion, be advisable to go the other route and start off as a bladesigner to 6, and then grab EK? I get the con saves, but you can grab resilient con and spamming shield spells is a good way to avoid contact. And wisdom saves are big as well.

The only reason that I'd hesitate to do it that way (and it certainly can be done) is that it is easier to transition from a Martial role to a Caster role than vice-versa. A Paladin who goes 6 (or 8 levels) before becoming a Sorcerer is still a capable front-line warrior, for example, even when he hits levels that would have given him a power boost (improved smiting at 11) because he has a solid martial base upon which magic versatility has been added. The reverse of that (a Sorcerer 6 or 8) becoming a Paladin starts as very much behind as a martial character for their level and very quickly becomes a subpar caster as well. They both end up at the same place, but the tier-based progression of the warriors makes it easier to remain useful for a span of levels compared to the constant progression of casters (where certain levels will see you as both inferior to the spellcasters who are gaining higher levels of spell access and inferior to the martial characters that you are trying to catch up to.)

With the EK/BS, starting as a Bladesinger for 6 levels makes you less prepared for the frontline, and Resilience is realistically going to be a mid-to-late game acquisition, because you've got Dex and Int to max (or at least 18) first. Going EK first, you become a solid martial character. Getting War Magic will allow you to tack on extra damage and serves as your level 11-esque damage boost a bit early, so you remain a decent damage dealer and durable front-line fighter even as you add levels of Bladesinger. Your damage output/party usefulness increases then as your access to spells (and ability to inflict them on enemies due to Eldritch Strike) increases. Vice-versa, you've got the Extra attack but fall a bit short on the HP, lose action surge and second wind, and you'll be level 13 by the time you get your melee damage boost in the form of War Magic. You'll be able to buff yourself better in the 8-14, but you'll want Resilient Con to keep the buffs from being wiped by a concentration break, which means delaying either Dex (and thus bonus to AC and Attack) or Int (bonus to AC, Concentration saves, and DC that you can definitely use since you have 3rd level spells) increases. You could play either way, I just prefer martial first, evolving into caster.

[Vemynal]

The 10/10 can be built competitive at every level; that's not an issue. I started with 5 levels of Eldritch Knight, in order to get Extra Attack. Then 2 levels of Bladesinger to get Bladesong. Level 6 of EK was the second ASI (character level 8, in keeping with non-fighter classes) and level 7 got War Magic (damage boost well ahead of CL11). Levels 3 and 4 in Bladesinger (CL10 and 11) give wider access to 2nd level spells, third level slots, and the 3rd ASI (a level ahead of schedule.) EK 8 (4th ASI), 9 (4th level slots), 10 (Eldritch Strike) at CL14. Then Bladesinger for the remaining 6 levels, capping with the Song of Defense.

Yeah, this pretty much wins the thread for me. Thanks CNagy! Truth be told, I completely spaced on Magus getting 6th level spells. Kinda funny I picked the option that gets 5th level spells and 7th level slots haha.

[djreynolds]

What level do you add intelligence to damage? I think BS gets all of his goodies by 14. EK 6 will give you two more spell levels, but loses out on 9th level spells. 10 levels of BS and you will lose the possibility of the EK 3rd attack. And EK taken should be in levels of 3 for your spell progression.

Please plan to take 14 levels of BS. And then 3 or 6 levels of EK. Remember 9th level spell "slot" will come 16 levels or so, but the ability to cast a 9th level spell is 17th level.

Well whatever you choose I will be happy to see your build. Enjoy

[CNagy]

The 3rd attack has become somewhat redundant on the EK. This is a rather new development, entirely due to the SCAG cantrips. Before, the arguable best use of War Magic was to cast Blade Ward every turn you needed to tank, while dealing some damage with your bonus action attack. Now the SCAG cantrips turn 7th level War Magic into a big damage boost that puts using a cantrip and an attack on the level with using 3 attacks. It also makes grabbing EK in increments of 3 levels incredibly bad advice--the additional spell slots from EK are the least important thing you are getting. War Magic at 7 and Eldritch Strike at 10 are worth as much or more than the additional spell slot or two (for spell levels that you cannot learn actual spells) you get by sticking to 3 level increments and getting an additional level in BS. Eldritch Strike does mean choosing between 5th or 6th level spells, but for a secondary caster the potential of inflicting disadvantage on the saves for every offensive spell you cast 1st-5th level outweighs getting 6th level.

And the 14th level damage boost is a trap. It'll add 4 damage per hit per round (until you max Int at 16, or 18 considering the multiclass) ; so you have to work to maximize your number of attacks to take advantage of it. That means two weapon fighting (which means using shortswords instead of a rapier) and Haste (which is probably not the best use of your concentration when you have 1st-7th level Wizard spells and that Haste would be more effective on the party's main tank/frontline character.) Taking Bladesinger for 14 levels gives you a very hard to hit Wizard, but only a very self-indulgent or subpar gish.

[Vemynal]

What are some good feat options for a EK/BS multiclass? Other than the obvious War Caster haha

[djreynolds]

The 3rd attack has become somewhat redundant on the EK. This is a rather new development, entirely due to the SCAG cantrips. Before, the arguable best use of War Magic was to cast Blade Ward every turn you needed to tank, while dealing some damage with your bonus action attack. Now the SCAG cantrips turn 7th level War Magic into a big damage boost that puts using a cantrip and an attack on the level with using 3 attacks. It also makes grabbing EK in increments of 3 levels incredibly bad advice--the additional spell slots from EK are the least important thing you are getting. War Magic at 7 and Eldritch Strike at 10 are worth as much or more than the additional spell slot or two (for spell levels that you cannot learn actual spells) you get by sticking to 3 level increments and getting an additional level in BS. Eldritch Strike does mean choosing between 5th or 6th level spells, but for a secondary caster the potential of inflicting disadvantage on the saves for every offensive spell you cast 1st-5th level outweighs getting 6th level.

And the 14th level damage boost is a trap. It'll add 4 damage per hit per round (until you max Int at 16, or 18 considering the multiclass) ; so you have to work to maximize your number of attacks to take advantage of it. That means two weapon fighting (which means using shortswords instead of a rapier) and Haste (which is probably not the best use of your concentration when you have 1st-7th level Wizard spells and that Haste would be more effective on the party's main tank/frontline character.) Taking Bladesinger for 14 levels gives you a very hard to hit Wizard, but only a very self-indulgent or subpar gish.

I just started a thread about bladesinger, please par take. I too see that 14th int damage boost as a possible trap, maybe its 10 if you max out both int and dex.

And I see your logic about the 10/10 eldritch strike and the BS spell/damage soaker, excellent catch.

So please post.

For me, though, I'm going BS 18/ rogue 1 or 2

As for feats, I'm not sure you could spare any in the 15/14/13/12/10/8 array, misty step will beat mobile, resilient wis if you didn't start wizard could be beneficial. But IMO, I would start off wizard get proficiency in wis and war caster and bladesong should cover concentration checks. Also you know with 13 charisma you could dip sorcerer for con saves and meta-magic. Not optimal but could be effective, twinning haste on you and the paladin or barbarian