How can a low-level caster use the lvl 8.Steal Life spell

[Harlot]

Hi - I asked this in the FAQ but was advised to start a thread, as there might be a lot of different solutions.

I am writing a campaign in which it would be very fitting if the BBEG, a necromancer, uses the *Steal Life' spell at regular intervals to keep from aging.(a classic evil queen, think Snowwhite).
Problem is that this is an 8th level spell, and for the BBEG to cast it, she would have to be too high level (15+?). I Think I imagined the BBEG to be lvl 8-9 at the max.

Is there a 'light' version of this spell, a spell that does something similar, or some obvious way for the necromancer to be able to use this spell quite regularly without having to be very high level. There may be a fairly obvious solution to this, and if so, I am sorry - I hardly ever play casters myself and am still not very familiar with the rules. I'd prefer if she does not have to depend on a magic item to cast it.

Thanks a lot for helping. You people have never let me down.
/Harlot

[noob]

She can get an SLA from a pact with the devil and stuff of this kind.
If you like halflings you might try the following:
Else you might use sublime chord(and get access to eighth level spells at level eight simply use wizard take a dip into halfling whistler at level seven(and have able learner for listen) then take a level in sublime chord and base it on wizard(you can also with some minor cheese get access to all the wizard spells with the sublime chord casting(by using versatile spell-caster or profane preparation)))

Alternatively you might just make her a necropolitan(no la nor CR undead template) and say that she believes she must sacrifice people for staying young(and use some disguise skill also necropolitan conserve themselves really well so maybe you can homebrew a spell who makes a necropolitan look more alive temporarily and who drain the life of the target since it is barely better than disguise self or a spell dealing some very small stat drain it would not be hard to do that spell)
You can also throw in human heritage and she will be an humanoid and immortal.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A wizard can learn spells of any level, even if he can't cast them yet.

Learn Steal Life. Then use Spell Mastery and Signature Spell to allow you to convert any 8th level spell into Steal Life.

After that you'll just have to use metamagic reducers and Heighten Spell to heighten a 5th level spell to 8th level.
Easiest is probably to use a Slaymate (LM), Earth Spell (RoS) and Metamagic School Focus (CM), which lets you heighten a 5th level necromancy spell to 8th level.

You can also be an Illumian (though you'll have to get turn/rebuke undead from somewhere) or use the Undead Battery feat (DL:AoM) if dragonlance content is on the table.

[Nando]

Or you could homebrew a fitting incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm).

[noob]

You need five feats with your method and so you need either to be human or strong-heart halfling or those dwarves with one bonus feat or to have the right to flaws.
or to be an illuminian.
So it is less race restrictive than my halfling combo
(but you get level eight spells only in necromancy )
While with my combo you can even get level 9 spells with an enough high casting stat and you can cast ANY spell at level 8.

[Seto]

Is there any reason why she couldn't use scrolls ?

[noob]

Is there any reason why she couldn't use scrolls ?
You have no idea what the players will do once they will have those scrolls in their hands?

[Seto]

You have no idea what the players will do once they will have those scrolls in their hands?

Fair point. She shouldn't have a whole stash of them. But one scroll or two would be fair considering that :
- she's the BBEG and rewards for defeating her should be potent
- if she's the BBEG, maybe the campaign will stop after that
- even if it doesn't, Steal Life is [Vile], which means any non-Evil PCs are virtually barred from casting it.

Even then, to adress your question, what will they do ? Either sell them, which is okay, or kill someone, who they have to prealably subdue and immobilize, and get a year younger or so, which doesn't seem game-breaking to me.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could homebrew a Versatile Spellcaster-like mechanic, where she spends two 7ths, four 6ths or eight 5ths to cast steal life. As a small advantage, you get a mechanical weakness on the day she casts the spell, creating a window of opportunity for the PCs. That is, you can have a level 12 BBEG with four 6th-level spell slots, and have the PCs fight her - after appropriate subterfuge and espionage - on steal life-day, facing her with all 6ths expended.

[Samalpetey]

She can get an SLA from a pact with the devil and stuff of this kind.


Why would a devil grant someone a power that ensures they will not go to hell as long as they're mindful of their enemies?

[DarkSoul]

I would recommend the incantation route that Nando linked to, if the BBEG is alive.

If you go with the Necropolitan idea, you could use something as simple as Gentle Repose performed in a sacrificial ritual to increase the duration to whatever is fitting for your campaign.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You have no idea what the players will do once they will have those scrolls in their hands?

What will they do? The spell is almost entirely fluff. Even if they could cast it at will it wouldn't break anything.
As long as you count the price of the scrolls into the BBEGs treasure as normal it's fine.

The only problem i could see is that your players want to use similar tricks to get early access to high level casting, but since it requires such a high investment and has pretty big limitations no matter what method you use i don't think that it's really a problem.

[Âmesang]

Scrolls were my first guess tied with the question: Just where is the BBEG getting them from? Perhaps a Bigger, Badder, Eviler, Guyer? *dramatic chord*

[Necroticplague]

Are there any 6 HD or less creatures with Wish? He could be Planar Binding (lesser) them into creating the scrolls.

[Bronk]

What will they do? The spell is almost entirely fluff. Even if they could cast it at will it wouldn't break anything.
As long as you count the price of the scrolls into the BBEGs treasure as normal it's fine.

I agree with this! However, because of that, the easiest way to give this necromancer a spell way outside his class level is to have it as a custom magic item. You could make it work once per month to add desperation to your mook's actions. It can be part of his loot, and they can decide to keep it or sell it.

If you don't want them to keep it, make it an evil minor artifact that they then have to destroy on a quest.

Or, if you want to lengthen the campaign, your necromancer could have been given the spell, or the scrolls, or the magic item, or whatever by a more powerful necromancer to be decided later.

[ericgrau]

Hi - I asked this in the FAQ but was advised to start a thread, as there might be a lot of different solutions.

I am writing a campaign in which it would be very fitting if the BBEG, a necromancer, uses the *Steal Life' spell at regular intervals to keep from aging.(a classic evil queen, think Snowwhite).
Problem is that this is an 8th level spell, and for the BBEG to cast it, she would have to be too high level (15+?). I Think I imagined the BBEG to be lvl 8-9 at the max.

Is there a 'light' version of this spell, a spell that does something similar, or some obvious way for the necromancer to be able to use this spell quite regularly without having to be very high level. There may be a fairly obvious solution to this, and if so, I am sorry - I hardly ever play casters myself and am still not very familiar with the rules. I'd prefer if she does not have to depend on a magic item to cast it.

Thanks a lot for helping. You people have never let me down.
/Harlot
I'm confused why a magic item is bad. You're the DM, it's your story, the evil queen even had magic items. The BBEG found it by luck. If it's usable only once every ~2 months, then that's all the BBEG needs and it keeps the item from being excessively valuable.

A custom spell like ability or saying "it's a magical ritual powered by the-BBEG's-bloodline or other plot point" works too. You're the DM. You can make stuff up. And if you limit it such as making it once per ~2 months or etc. it's not heavy handed DMing either.

[Xervous]

Are there any 6 HD or less creatures with Wish? He could be Planar Binding (lesser) them into creating the scrolls.

If there were I'm pretty sure at least someone would be seen suggesting assume Su + alter self (in the case of <6HD). Free wishes at L5, doubt it's out there.

[Uncle Pine]

Is there a 'light' version of this spell, a spell that does something similar, or some obvious way for the necromancer to be able to use this spell quite regularly without having to be very high level. There may be a fairly obvious solution to this, and if so, I am sorry - I hardly ever play casters myself and am still not very familiar with the rules. I'd prefer if she does not have to depend on a magic item to cast it.

I'm going to suggest a slightly different approach, but maybe you'll find it interesting. Imagine if instead of having an evil queen periodically kidnapping a homeless and draining him to his death with Steal Life, she (or some shady person loyal to her) were to establish a competition to enroll the most promising spies, enforcers and assassins into the queen's secret police every couple of months or so. No one actually ever saw one of the winners after he was "enrolled", but the call of gold still draws people to the competition.
Truth is, the queen turns the winners into living zombies at her service. This serves more than a single purpose:
- every living zombie makes his creator (the queen) age half as quickly as she would, so the more zombies the queen creates, the longer her reign will be;
- by turning assassins and spies into living zombies the queen is effectively removing potential threats to her life from the streets, especially if she also sends her living zombies to hunt dissidents to make even more living zombies;
- while there's a limit to the number of living zombies one can concurrently control (= your modifier in your primary spellcasting ability) there's no limit to the number of living zombies a single spellcaster can create and all of them count when you determine how slow the creator ages;
- you can use the living zombies controlled by the queen as enemies for the PCs and the plethora of uncontrolled and restrained ones as hostages.

Living zombie is an acquired tmeplate from Champions of Run. To create one, a spellcaster needs Command Undead, Dominate Animal/Person/Monster (depending on the type of the target, you can also make squirrel batteries instead of human batteries), False Life, Feeblemind and 1,000 gp. Containment pod not included.

EDIT: Just to throw a few numbers, imagine an evil queen with 18 Int. Just by controlling 4 assassins and having 10 dissident living zombies in her dungeon, the queen is aging only ~5 seconds every day (24 hours/16,384). With 30 dissident living zombies, she would age slightly more than 5 µseconds every day.
EDIT_2: Remember that living zombies are still living creatures and as such should be fed every now and then.

[xyianth]

As a wizard 5/X 4, you have 5 feats. (humans and the like get 6) Wizards can learn spells that they can't otherwise cast yet by spending the resources to do so. Assuming you have an ally that has some method of healing 4 constitution damage, you can take the following feats to be able to cast steal life at level 9:

spell mastery(steal life), signature spell(steal life), <any metamagic feat>, sanctum spell, eldritch corruption

Use eldritch corruption to prepare a heighten(+2) sanctum <5th level spell>. In your sanctum, this is a prepared 8th level spell. You can then use signature spell to swap it for steal life.

You would only be able to do this within your sanctum, so you would have to bring your victims there. A lesser restoration wand or a level of binder on your willing ally would allow them to recover from the con damage. Your ally must have a Con score and can not be summoned or charmed.

If you are playing with taint rules, you can grab sanctum spell and eldritch corruption as your bonus feats for mild and moderate depravity ratings. If you are not, you can just handwave the taint requirements on eldritch corruption, (since you are the DM) seeing as you are casting vile spells and therefore you would have qualified eventually anyway.


Alternatively, you can be human and take the feats: earth sense, heighten spell, earth spell, sanctum spell, eldritch corruption, extra slot. This will grant you an extra spell slot of 8th level. You could then prepare steal life as normal.

[Harlot]

Hello everybody - thank you so much for taking time to help me.
I admire your creativity and various solutions - I just knew there'd be many ways around this, but I couldn't see them.

To adress the question of scrolls and magic wands:
The reason I don't want the BBEG to use a magic item is simply that I prefer this power to be to be a core trait of hers, something permanent that cannot be taken from her by theft or conquest.

I will use Xyiaths sanctum solution as it seems very straightforward, and doesn't call for the use of special classes or races. I imagined the spell to be cast as a complex ritual at a fixed site anyways, so the sanctum works brilliantly.

Thank you all of you for helping me out. I really appreciate it!

[Arbane]

Why would a devil grant someone a power that ensures they will not go to hell as long as they're mindful of their enemies?

While they live, they're causing pain and suffering, preying on the innocent, and killing heroes who catch wind of them. When they die, the devil gets their soul. Win-win situation!

[TheifofZ]

While they live, they're causing pain and suffering, preying on the innocent, and killing heroes who catch wind of them. When they die, the devil gets their soul. Win-win situation!

This. And devils are ageless. Person makes the bargain, the devil is guaranteed an agent of evil in the mortal realm until the villain goofs.
And in eternity, goofs will happen. So the devil is guaranteed the soul eventually. Be it a month, a decade, or even a millennia from the time they seal the bargain.
On top of that, the devil will usually have some kind of actual requirements for the villain to do as well; minor favors or similar that won't be thought much of, but play into a longer scheme.

So as long as the person is alive to commit evil, it's a win-win for the devil. Once they die and the devil gets their soul, that's another win.
A bargain like that? The devil gets paid thrice at least.

[bekeleven]

A wizard can learn spells of any level, even if he can't cast them yet.

Learn Steal Life. Then use Spell Mastery and Signature Spell to allow you to convert any 8th level spell into Steal Life.
A wizard's spells known includes only spells that the wizard can cast, so this doesn't work.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A wizard's spells known includes only spells that the wizard can cast, so this doesn't work.

I'm going to ask for a citation on that, because i know of no such rule.
A wizard knows every spell in his spellbook, and there is no level limit to what spells you can scribe in your spellbook, only a spellcraft check.
The only limit is on the spells you get for free when you level up, at least that i'm aware of.

[bekeleven]

PHB, Glossary
Known Spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare.

[Urpriest]

Note that Steal Life isn't very useful in combat, and doesn't do anything especially powerful aside from the life extending. That suggests that the reason it's level 8 isn't because of it's power, but because of it's fluff: repeatable life extension just isn't available to characters at lower level. Note that being a Lich requires level 11, so you shouldn't be able to gain an arguably nicer means of eternal youth earlier than that. A character with the power you're describing simply can't, fluffwise, access that sort of effect in the D&D setting.

[xyianth]

Well, with the definition of known spell, that trick doesn't work.

...

Good thing he is the DM and can just decide it does because reasons. :smalltongue:

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with a notable BBEG being able to perform a single otherwise illegal trick for plot reasons. Especially when that illegal trick is casting a woefully overleveled spell that is obviously intended for use exclusively by BBEGs. This spell allows evil spellcasters to live longer... Elans are immortal from level 1 with LA +0. I don't think it will break anything.

[Harlot]

Well, with the definition of known spell, that trick doesn't work.
...

Good thing he is the DM and can just decide it does because reasons. :smalltongue:

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with a notable BBEG being able to perform a single otherwise illegal trick for plot reasons. Especially when that illegal trick is casting a woefully overleveled spell that is obviously intended for use exclusively by BBEGs. This spell allows evil spellcasters to live longer... Elans are immortal from level 1 with LA +0. I don't think it will break anything.

Arrghh, just made the BBEG as described by you and now this...

OK, back to magic items, I guess.
Thanks :-)

[Nando]

Just for the heck of it, I tried to brew an incantation:

Consume Anothers Youth
Necromancy [Evil]

Effective Level: 7th
Skill Check: Knowledge (arcana) DC 23, 7 successes
Failure: Caster takes 1d6 points of damage to each of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma; target is healed to full HP and regains consciousness (if applicible)
Components: V, S, M, F
Casting Time: 7 hours
Range: Touch
Target: One living humanoid
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This incantation is used by evil Necromancers and the like to prolong their lifes - at the cost of the lifes of their victims.

Consume Anothers Youth can only be cast on the night of a full moon (casting can begin as soon as the moon has risen). An unwilling target must be helpless for the entire casting time. Regardless of the willingness of the target, the target hast to stay in a magical circle which has to be drawn around it, using epensive chalk, coal and/or powders.

When the last skill check succeeds, the target hast to be stabbed with a ritual knife. If the target takes at least 1 point of damage, it is instantly killed. The body of the target then starts to rappidly age and decay, until only a fine dust remains of it. Simultaneously the caster becomes effectively one week younger for every point of Strength, Dexterity and Constitution the target possesed (her age is reduced, but memories and abilities acquired during those weeks are not lost).

Material Component
Expensive chalk, coal and/or powders with which to draw the magical circle worth at least 500gp.

Focus
A ritual knife which has to be used to stab the target, worth at least 500gp.

It would take a DC 13 Knowledge (arcana) check to find a set of instructions for this incantation "if the characters have access to a well-stocked library of magical information" (it might be a much higher DC for the PCs, if the BBEG does not have such a library ;) ).

[xyianth]

Arrghh, just made the BBEG as described by you and now this...

OK, back to magic items, I guess.
Thanks :-)

Note that the alternative option I gave still works:
human wizard 5/X 4 (X = full casting PrC or more wizard)
feats: heighten spell[1], earth sense[h], earth spell[3], sanctum spell[5], eldritch corruption[6], extra slot[9]
you could prepare a heighten(+2) sanctum <5th level spell> using eldritch corruption (you don't have to actually do it, it only matters that you could do it)
inside your sanctum, while standing on unworked earth, that spell is counted as a 9th level spell [5(base) + 2(eldritch corruption heighten) +1(sanctum) +1(earth spell)]
because you are able to cast a 9th level spell, extra slot grants you an additional daily slot of up to 8th level
You can then learn steal life as a wizard and prepare it in that 8th level slot
As a side bonus, those feats mean that when facing the PCs in your sanctum, if you cast any heightened(+1) sanctum spells, they will count as if they are heightened(+3).

The only reason human is needed is for the bonus feat, any race can work if you allow flaws.

[Endarire]

Alternatively, plot. It's not a first resort around here (that I know of), but if you're the GM, you can do it.

[Synar]

Well, with the definition of known spell, that trick doesn't work.

...

Good thing he is the DM and can just decide it does because reasons. :smalltongue:

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with a notable BBEG being able to perform a single otherwise illegal trick for plot reasons. Especially when that illegal trick is casting a woefully overleveled spell that is obviously intended for use exclusively by BBEGs. This spell allows evil spellcasters to live longer... Elans are immortal from level 1 with LA +0. I don't think it will break anything.

So you're saying, that devising a complicated mechanic trick, with broken feats, multiple books and mechanism that don't even work but need handwaving because plot,
is better than just saying that because of plot the BBEG doesn't age if she bathes in her victims bloods?
In both way you use plot reason, but one is straightforward and honnest while the other one is complex, trying to deny itself and losing all flavor and lorefor basically no gain at all.

[Necroticplague]

I know of a trick with Domain wizard and Elven Generalist that lets you get level 9 spells at level 1 (by bootstrapping with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell). If you choose a domain that gives you Miracle (Luck domain comes to mind), you can use the Miracle to cast the Steal Life.

[Nibbens]

I'm confused why a magic item is bad. You're the DM, it's your story, the evil queen even had magic items. The BBEG found it by luck. If it's usable only once every ~2 months, then that's all the BBEG needs and it keeps the item from being excessively valuable.

A custom spell like ability or saying "it's a magical ritual powered by the-BBEG's-bloodline or other plot point" works too. You're the DM. You can make stuff up. And if you limit it such as making it once per ~2 months or etc. it's not heavy handed DMing either.

Okay, I'll second this point. If you're going by PF rules (even though I don;t think steal life is in PF), you can create a staff of Steal Life that burns 10 charges every use to fire the spell at the level of the caster (9th) that only costs a little less than 3K as a cost. It'll quickly outlive its usefulness and when they sell it, it's only 3k.

[meschlum]

Since you're using the BoVD, why not apply the sacrifice mechanics?

Make a yearly sacrifice to get a scroll, or a more impressive offering to get a wish and reproduce the spell.

If you've researched a variant sacrifice that requires a lower DC than wish or an expensive scroll, it can be your personal bit of magic, offering up the soul of your victims in exchange for their lifespan.

[xyianth]

So you're saying, that devising a complicated mechanic trick, with broken feats, multiple books and mechanism that don't even work but need handwaving because plot,
is better than just saying that because of plot the BBEG doesn't age if she bathes in her victims bloods?
In both way you use plot reason, but one is straightforward and honnest while the other one is complex, trying to deny itself and losing all flavor and lorefor basically no gain at all.

Uhh.. No, that is not what I am saying at all. The illegal trick I was referring to was "casting steal life at level 8-9" not "combining multiple feats and mechanics to cast steal life". I agree that it is far better to just say BBEG does X because plot than it is to say BBEG uses 5-6 feats to achieve X because plot. I do see how you could have misinterpreted my previous post though, and for any confusion I caused I do apologize.

[Harlot]

Hello again

I've gone through all of your suggestions again. It seems as though it IS possible to have the necromancer cast the spell, this is only done by using multiple feats from multiple books and although it is done by RAW, it is obviously rather farfetched.
Considering this, and knowing my players are not adverse to 'because of PLOT'-solutions, I might just go with some of the alternative solutions you suggested (ritual sacrifice, Nando's incantation or a pact with the devil) - or some mash-up.

Again, I really appreciate your help.
Thanks
/Harlot

[Uncle Pine]

Hello again

I've gone through all of your suggestions again. It seems as though it IS possible to have the necromancer cast the spell, this is only done by using multiple feats from multiple books and although it is done by RAW, it is obviously rather farfetched.


Shameless self-plug, just because it's a solution that doesn't require any feat, even though it does require 4 spells (all accessible to a 9th level caster) instead of one.


I'm going to suggest a slightly different approach, but maybe you'll find it interesting. Imagine if instead of having an evil queen periodically kidnapping a homeless and draining him to his death with Steal Life, she (or some shady person loyal to her) were to establish a competition to enroll the most promising spies, enforcers and assassins into the queen's secret police every couple of months or so. No one actually ever saw one of the winners after he was "enrolled", but the call of gold still draws people to the competition.
Truth is, the queen turns the winners into living zombies at her service. This serves more than a single purpose:
- every living zombie makes his creator (the queen) age half as quickly as she would, so the more zombies the queen creates, the longer her reign will be;
- by turning assassins and spies into living zombies the queen is effectively removing potential threats to her life from the streets, especially if she also sends her living zombies to hunt dissidents to make even more living zombies;
- while there's a limit to the number of living zombies one can concurrently control (= your modifier in your primary spellcasting ability) there's no limit to the number of living zombies a single spellcaster can create and all of them count when you determine how slow the creator ages;
- you can use the living zombies controlled by the queen as enemies for the PCs and the plethora of uncontrolled and restrained ones as hostages.

Living zombie is an acquired tmeplate from Champions of Run. To create one, a spellcaster needs Command Undead, Dominate Animal/Person/Monster (depending on the type of the target, you can also make squirrel batteries instead of human batteries), False Life, Feeblemind and 1,000 gp. Containment pod not included.

EDIT: Just to throw a few numbers, imagine an evil queen with 18 Int. Just by controlling 4 assassins and having 10 dissident living zombies in her dungeon, the queen is aging only ~5 seconds every day (24 hours/16,384). With 30 dissident living zombies, she would age slightly more than 5 µseconds every day.
EDIT_2: Remember that living zombies are still living creatures and as such should be fed every now and then.