Beast Master vs Hunter DPS. Lvl 20

[Elite Hatter]

A buddy and I were running the numbers on the Rangers subclasses and we came out to an interesting discovery. With a panther that has a +10 to hit and avg 21 dmg between the 2 attacks it gets for half of your attack action and Sharpshooter + Swift Quiver a Beast master does about 10 more points of damage than a Hunter. Even with an extra attack and Colossus Slayer.

And at 80 Hp, 18 AC, w/o Barding, and a passive 20 perception, +10 to perception, and +12 to stealth, the panther isn't exactly a liability. This isn't even accounting for It's Keen Smell or Pounce ability. Pounce actually Widens the Gap.

What is so bad about Beast Master?

[MaxWilson]

I don't think Beastmaster is bad from a game-balance perspective--it's just weird and distasteful than the beast has less initiative and volition than a storebought mastiff or a conjured animal. Training should make the beast better, not worse.

That being said, it seems unfair to use the beastmaster's high-level ability if you're not also using the Hunter's 11th-level Volley.

The beast's small number of HP and relatively poor AC could be an issue too. Your average randomly-rolled 20th level encounter on kobold.com will severely damage even an AC 18 panther with only 80 HP, because it's basically only equivalent to a 5th or 6th level PC in melee, and it's on the weak side at that. Compare that panther to a Mobile 5th level Open Hand Monk. The panther has similar AC and similar damage (no Stunning), less resistance to ranged weaponry, no bonus dodge, but twice as many HP and no Mobile feat. Also the panther has very few HD for healing although I'd expect a DM to fix that issue with a house rule.

But as I said, I don't think the Beastmaster is bad from a game-balance perspective, because that panther is just his 3rd level ability. In any scenario that matters, the Beastmaster's panther will be mixed in with 16 other panthers that were summoned via Conjure Animals V, and that is very competitive with anything a fighter could unleash at level 20. (A Hunter would have those same 16 animals but he would be sniping away with Sharpshooter Volley or Multiattack + Colossus Slayer/Horde-breaker; overall combat effectiveness would probably be similar to the Beastmaster.)

[Elite Hatter]

That being said, it seems unfair to use the beastmaster's high-level ability if you're not also using the Hunter's 11th-level Volley.

This is true, but then you could just Conjure Volley for both sub classes. And you can't make a pet as good as a PC, then you'd have an unfair advantage over other PC's. And I mean 18 AC, with Half-Plate, which wouldn't be unfeasible with downtime or gold cost, you could have a potential 23 AC. That's a fighter in plate with a shield and fighting style. You could get that around level 6 or 7 in an "Average" campaign and even have an AC of 20. Which is probably higher than yours at that point.

Yea it's weak to spells and AoE, but it is JUST a panther. Or animal for that matter. You only enhance it so much. And that mastiff you mentioned, doesn't scale hp, and doesn't get you proficiency bonus to multiple attributes.

[Anime Squirrel]

Beast master seems backloaded to me. Better at higher levels comparatively.

[MaxWilson]

This is true, but then you could just Conjure Volley for both sub classes.

I don't mean Conjure Volley, the spell, because that costs spell slots. I mean the 11th level Hunter ability, Volley, which is basically a mini-Fireball at will.

For example, you summon 16 Giant Poisonous Snakes which will shred large individual creatures like Frost Giants, and you use Volley (w/ Sharpshooter sniping and Archery style, plus Horde Breaker) to take down orc or kobold mobs which could potentially threaten your snakes. You're strong against both mobs and single large creatures: synergy. All it costs you is 1 gp per twenty arrows.

A Beastmaster would do fine against the single big creatures but would struggle against mobs.

Edit: responding now to more than just the first sentence of your post (sorry):


This is true, but then you could just Conjure Volley for both sub classes. And you can't make a pet as good as a PC, then you'd have an unfair advantage over other PC's. And I mean 18 AC, with Half-Plate, which wouldn't be unfeasible with downtime or gold cost, you could have a potential 23 AC. That's a fighter in plate with a shield and fighting style. You could get that around level 6 or 7 in an "Average" campaign and even have an AC of 20. Which is probably higher than yours at that point.

Yea it's weak to spells and AoE, but it is JUST a panther. Or animal for that matter. You only enhance it so much. And that mastiff you mentioned, doesn't scale hp, and doesn't get you proficiency bonus to multiple attributes.

A paladin with Defense style and full plate can routinely have AC 23 by level 5 or so (plate + shield + defense = 21, add Shield of Faith with your bonus action for 23). At that level, an AC 20 Panther is okay, definitely not bad, but not exciting either compared to a full PC. (You have the incidental problem that unless it is somehow proficient in medium armor, which seems doubtful, it's at disadvantage on Str/Dex saves/checks/attacks per PHB 144 armor proficiency rules. So you're giving up a lot of offense to get that AC 20.)

I think we both agree that a pet is kind of like a mini-PC that doesn't scale well, but that beastmasters aren't reliant on their pets and so aren't underpowered if the pet isn't full PC-power. Right? Do we also agree that the pet is probably less durable than a melee PC and will often be the first (N)PC to drop in a fight? An AC 20 Panther with 14 HP at level 7 isn't going to last long in melee if it attacks, maybe not even if it Dodges.

So, the pet is fragile by the standards of 7th level PCs, but that's okay because a Beastmaster with a dropped pet can still be sniping with two arrows per round for d8+15 per hit, and you can always buy a new pet and train it in a few hours. Maybe you have a whole pack of mastiffs and you just train and armor the pack leader. If he dies, train a new leader. Funny though that the leader turns into a zombie as soon as you train him... and that's why I dislike Beastmasters by RAW. IMO it works better to just not grant them proficiency bonuses to hit/save/damage/AC unless the Beastmaster is actively directing the pet, otherwise it acts normally.

A Sharpshooter Beastmaster with a net might be kind of fun actually. You can't attack more than once with a net anyway, so spending your other attack to make your pet attack is actually a bonus.

[Vogonjeltz]

A buddy and I were running the numbers on the Rangers subclasses and we came out to an interesting discovery. With a panther that has a +10 to hit and avg 21 dmg between the 2 attacks it gets for half of your attack action and Sharpshooter + Swift Quiver a Beast master does about 10 more points of damage than a Hunter. Even with an extra attack and Colossus Slayer.

And at 80 Hp, 18 AC, w/o Barding, and a passive 20 perception, +10 to perception, and +12 to stealth, the panther isn't exactly a liability. This isn't even accounting for It's Keen Smell or Pounce ability. Pounce actually Widens the Gap.

What is so bad about Beast Master?

Nothing, the vitriol is about essentially substituting the superior animal attack for the characters attack. It's an objection based on emotion, not data.