TWF Ranger vs Sword and Board Ranger

[Rajah]

I am under the impression that a melee ranger is viable in 5e? As in competitive with fighter, barbarian, and paladin. Is this correct?

Also, if I do roll a melee ranger, which is the better all around combatant, ie combination of damage and toughness? Two weapon ranger with two weapon fighting? Or sword and board ranger with dueling fighting style?

[MaxWilson]

I am under the impression that a melee ranger is viable in 5e? As in competitive with fighter, barbarian, and paladin. Is this correct?

Also, if I do roll a melee ranger, which is the better all around combatant, ie combination of damage and toughness? Two weapon ranger with two weapon fighting? Or sword and board ranger with dueling fighting style?

Competitive with barbarian and paladin in melee? I'd say probably not. Barbarian and paladin both have a higher ceiling on melee effectiveness: more durable (thanks to heavy armor + spells on paladin, and rage on barbarian) and higher damage output (thanks to Reckless Attack on barbarian, and Improved Smite on paladin). Ranger is almost forced to go down the Dex route instead of Str route, which makes rangers much, much better at ranged combat (only the fighter can compete) but not so hot in melee.

Spells can help make up the difference, but if the Beastmaster Ranger is succeeding in melee because he has a pack of hungry polar bears that he summoned up to accompany him and his giant cobra buddy, is that going to feel like "competing" or "cheating" in your eyes? Because without spells it basically isn't going to happen.

Also, why is "competing" important? Is your goal to have fun playing a ranger, or to exploit 5E rules in a way that makes the game as easy as possible? Sword-and-shield ranger can do the first but if you're doing the second, a melee anything is not going to be the answer.

As for your other question, which kind of fighting style is better: it depends on what kind of monsters you DM favors (mobs or individuals) but I'd generally recommend Dueling over TWF because you already have lots of things to do with your bonus action (Hunter's Mark, Ensnaring Strike, possibly Cunning Action if you multiclass).

[Tanarii]

Rapier/shield + Sentinel feat Beastmaster Ranger is a build I'm trying. It's not a straight DPR build, but it does what I want. Allows 'me' to be in two places at once (covering squishes and front line assistance), or I can work with my Wolf to give it pack advantage and punish anything attacking it instead of me. Using Ensnaring Stike more than Hunters Mark, because my Wolf is the primary damager and I'm going for battlefield control more. Not sure how it'll play out at higher levels.

If you want straight Ranger damage you're probably going to want to do a TWF Hunter build. Decide if you're going to be single target (Collossus + Hunters Mark) or anti-mobs (Horde Breaker + Ensnaring) and run with it, I'd say. The single target will probably be the higher DPR. The one thing to remember is every time you move your Hunters Mark, you lose your bonus action off-hand attack.

[djreynolds]

Rapier/shield + Sentinel feat Beastmaster Ranger is a build I'm trying. It's not a straight DPR build, but it does what I want. Allows 'me' to be in two places at once (covering squishes and front line assistance), or I can work with my Wolf to give it pack advantage and punish anything attacking it instead of me. Using Ensnaring Stike more than Hunters Mark, because my Wolf is the primary damager and I'm going for battlefield control more. Not sure how it'll play out at higher levels.

If you want straight Ranger damage you're probably going to want to do a TWF Hunter build. Decide if you're going to be single target (Collossus + Hunters Mark) or anti-mobs (Horde Breaker + Ensnaring) and run with it, I'd say. The single target will probably be the higher DPR. The one thing to remember is every time you move your Hunters Mark, you lose your bonus action off-hand attack.

Very cool build, I took your advice on the other thread and I'm using my beast as the attacker and I as the facilitator, and its kinda fun. I went sword and board, but strength, and I dipped fighter for protection style. Thanks for the advice. I use my new wolf as the hunter, and I do the hounding.

[Rajah]

I don't mean competitive in a min/max sense, I just want to not be absolutely terrible at a ranger's in-combat job - killing things.

[djreynolds]

I don't mean competitive in a min/max sense, I just want to not be absolutely terrible at a ranger's in-combat job - killing things.

You might think this crazy. But for all of my rangers I have taken archery. Even for my sword and board strength beast master, I took archery and later dipped fighter for protection. +2 to hit is awesome and you will more than likely have a 14-16 dex in a strength made ranger.

Now my hunter was dexterity based, I took archery but found I had to man the lines more often. And sometimes I used short sword and shield, or short sword/ short sword. Granted I didn't get my off hand damage which is 5 points or the extra 2 points of damage when I was using a shield, but when I wanted to hurt someone I just moved off, unslung the bow and went sharpshooter.

Now duel wield style is good, adding your ability modifier to you off hand attack is great and with the feat you can duel wield rapiers and get +1 defense on top. Duelist style is +2 damage every strike, +2 Shield AC and you could take shield master. But selecting duel wield or duelist forces you into a rigid mold.

A hunter ranger is strange class, and in my very humble opinion, should not be your rogue substitute unless you are multiclassing. A ranger's job in combat is flanking and skirmishing and picking off stragglers, either using a bow or your feet to tactically maneuver the enemy. That's why the hunter gets defense features so they can move in and out of combat but not stay put there. A hunter ranger is best made to be someone who can shoot and move and melee.

If you are making, IMO, a melee only ranger I would go strength based possibly with a polearm. You will be MAD, needing a minimum of 14 dexterity and breastplate, so can stealth without disadvantage and use pass without a trace to boost your stealth. In this case, I would still take archery style, but for you perhaps defense style to offset no shield. And beastmaster could be beneficial or hunter archetype. And I would definitely get con high and snag stoneskin when available. And if you have a scout in the party, dip fighter and get heavy armor. Whirlwind with a polearm and polearm master could be really cool.

[PoeticDwarf]

If you really want to go melee, go for a hunter with TWF (and if it is possible the TWF feat). You can go for some decent or even high DPR with still the nice ranger spells. I'd go dexterity. Dual wielding rapiers (first scimitars) and then put a 14/16 in con. 14/16 wis (don't need it for this build) and go for 20dex later.

[MaxWilson]

I don't mean competitive in a min/max sense, I just want to not be absolutely terrible at a ranger's in-combat job - killing things.

Ah. Then in that case, sure, you can be competitive with TWF or sword-and-shield. Just max Dex and take either Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker, and use Hunter's Mark occasionally and you'll be fine. A word of advice: at 7th level, I advise taking Escape the Horde and self-casting Longstrider so that you can hit-and-run. It's not quite as good as Mobile but since you're going to have Escape the Horde already you might as well.

If you feel silly, acquire Booming Blade with Magic Initiate or a one-level dip in Warlock/Wizard/Sorcerer, then enjoy the fact that Horde Breaker still triggers on Booming Blade ("once on your turn when you make a weapon attack"). Between that and Escape the Horde you'll be doing lots of damage and will be quite competitive.

[Tanarii]

IMO a Rangers job is to be a adaptable combat specialist with scouting utility. Of course, you get a focus on what kind of combat you do best, that's what the two paths, and the various Hunter options within its path, are all about.

I always forget hunters Mark works on every attack, not just once a turn. That means if you're going for straight single target killing, which is what it sounds like you think you want your ranger to do, you really want to get in close with two shortswords. At level five with three attacks, twf style and Collossus slayer you're looking at picking your target, doing 4d6+1d8+8 on round one, and 6d6+1d8+12 on the second round. No feats required. Plus you can always whip out your bow for longer range stuff.

Or you could go the archer route if you expect a lot of longer range combat, and pick up the sharpshooter feat. But unless you are a variant human, you're behind on Dex from levels 4 to 12 that way, which hurts AC and your melee capabilities a tad.


Very cool build, I took your advice on the other thread and I'm using my beast as the attacker and I as the facilitator, and its kinda fun. I went sword and board, but strength, and I dipped fighter for protection style. Thanks for the advice. I use my new wolf as the hunter, and I do the hounding.
I thought about using Str but I was worried about getting too MAD, since I wanted Wis for attack spells, especially since I was planning on using Ensnaring Strike as my go-to. And I wanted some Int for Nature/Favored Enemy checks. Also my goal was to be able to use my bow just as effectively if at longer range. Although the actions necessary to (un)equip a shield means I choose based on expected encounter range, not during combat. But flexibility to choose based on terrain's LoS range is enough for me.

I like the fighter dip for protection, which I assume you took instead of the Sentinel feat?. I think if I was going to do a Str ranger version with a Fighter dip, I'd probably do a Dex 14 Medium Armor (or maybe 16 with MaM), Greatsword wielder, with sentinel, two-handed and defensive fighting styles. That'd also make switching to bow easier, but a less effective option.

[djreynolds]

I am under the impression that a melee ranger is viable in 5e? As in competitive with fighter, barbarian, and paladin. Is this correct?

Also, if I do roll a melee ranger, which is the better all around combatant, ie combination of damage and toughness? Two weapon ranger with two weapon fighting? Or sword and board ranger with dueling fighting style?

I need an image of this ranger. Your concept. The days of favored enemy are over, until 20th level and its not worth it.
How do you imagine killing baddies with whirlwind? That's what you are shooting for, 11th level.

And remember you are not tied to a weapon. You could wield two rapiers or two war hammers. I just suggest if you go two-weapon style you will need some form of damage mitigation like uncanny dodge at 15th level, defensive duelist with dueling scimitars, stoneskin at 13th level.

With studded leather armor, and maxed AC, and Duel wield feat your dex is an 18, that's almost plate and shield. Duel wield rapiers, max dex, and grab defensive duelist, its a solid feat.

[Waazraath]

Something to keep in mind: the two weapon fighting competes with the bonus action used for hunter's mark. What I've seen so far in play is that this can be quite annoying. Sword and board doesn't have that problem, has a better AC and almost as much damage. Definitely viable.

[EvilAnagram]

I don't mean competitive in a min/max sense, I just want to not be absolutely terrible at a ranger's in-combat job - killing things.

At max level, a Barbarian without feats can deal 2d6+11 per hit while raging. That comes to an average of 18 points per hit, or 36 per turn. The math can get more complicated, but this is largely accurate.

A Ranger using Hunter's Mark and Dueling can deal 1d8+1d6+7. That's 15 damage per hit, 30 per turn. Maybe another 1d8 if you're a Hunter, so 34.5 damage per turn.

A TWF Ranger can deal 2d6+5 per hit, coming to 12 damage per hit. With three hits, that's 36 damage per turn, 40.5 as a Hunter.

It's all perfectly competitive.

Waazraath makes a decent point, though.

[Z3ro]

One of my players built a little bit of a different ranger that's actually working out quite well: sword and board dex with shield master. He's using a rapier with dueling style, went hunter and took horde breaker. Uses his bonus action to cast or move hex, and on the turns when he doesn't do that he uses the shove option from shield master. Doesn't land it often (only has a 12 strength) but it's really just gravy anyway. The build is surprisingly viable and competitive; he's not rocking combat, but he definitely makes his presence felt on the battlefield.