Hexblade plus warlock invocations what tier?

[gadren]

If I houseruled that Hexblades also got invocations as a warlock, no other features, and no blast shape invocations, but was able to apply eldritch essence invocations to weapon attacks, what tier would you say that put them at?

EDIT: Think I'm going to go with this (in addition to everything that Hexblades normally get):


Hexblades gain the Warlock's Invocations class feature. This feature advances as if the Hexblade was a Warlock of the same level, gaining new invocations and access to higher grades of invocations as described under the Warlock class. A multiclass Hexblade/Warlock adds the levels of both classes together to determine the grade of invocations they have access to.
Hexblades may apply the effects of eldritch essence invocations to their weapon attacks instead of their eldritch blasts.
Hexblades may only use one Eldritch Essence invocation per turn. If they have multiple qualifying attacks in the same turn, they may apply the effects of the same invocation once to each attack.
At level 2, Hexblades gain the Eldritch Blast class feature, as if a level 1 Warlock. The damage of the blast is increased by 1d6 at levels 5, 8, 11, 14, and 17.
At level 5, Hexblades treat any weapon they wield as if it had the conductive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/conductive)special ability.

[mabriss lethe]

Are you replacing hexblade casting or would the invocations be in addition to their normal casting?

Would they be getting eldritch blast?

just trying to get a handle on what the class would look like, but it really isn't important. You would probably be somewhere in the very high T4 to mid T3 range. Invocations are just too limited in scope to push beyond the T3 barrier.

[gadren]

Are you replacing hexblade casting or would the invocations be in addition to their normal casting?

Would they be getting eldritch blast?

just trying to get a handle on what the class would look like, but it really isn't important. You would probably be somewhere in the very high T4 to mid T3 range. Invocations are just too limited in scope to push beyond the T3 barrier.

It would get invocations in addition to casting. No other warlock features.

[ben-zayb]

It would get invocations in addition to casting. No other warlock features.

Only Essence Invocations work without EB; and while they offer some redundancy versatility, I don't see them as enough to have Hexblade leave T4. You can be a better debuffer with a +6 to Intimidate, or have better movement flexibility with flight and +6 to Tumble, or have more mooks with unlimited one at a time Charm and Animate Dead.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say T3. The main thing that holds the Warlock back is lack of damage; the Hexblade's weakness is lack of staying power. The two combine pretty well, I think. You can use Eldritch Essenced melee attacks and Dark Companion to debuff your target, then drop them with Power Attack. Invocations give you staying power, while spells let you get some more situational stuff.

You're a full martial type with a dozen solid magical powers, good resistance, an auto-debuff, and some spells off a very nice list. You'll do just fine.

[Troacctid]

Solid T3. Warlock invocations are pretty good and Hexblade has a good chassis.

[T.G. Oskar]

While you already mentioned availability (normal and Essence, no Blast Shape), the number and accessibility will matter a lot.

For starters, the Warlock gets 12 invocations overall, making it just around 3 invocations per degree (this is without counting Eldritch Blast and Detect Magic, the latter being an at-will ability). Thus, the power of the character will depend on which 12 invocations you get. Since you get Essence invocations, most likely you'll spend one of each of those 3 invocations per degree on them (ideally those that impose worthwhile penalties, like Sickening, Noxious or Utterdark, or those that change the damage type of the attack, like Hellrime or Vitriolic). Then, the other two invocations will generally gravitate towards general utility; perhaps Fell Flight for...well, flight, or Voidsense for blindsense, or even Walk Unseen/Retributive Invisibility for Invisibility concealment shenanigans. Maybe Chilling Tentacles for some nifty battlefield control.

Based on that, you have to figure out the Tiers of each and see whether the synergy provided by those 12 invocations on their best level of optimization work. Hexblade is (supposedly) considered tier 4 because of spell access, whereas Warlock is considered tier 4 because of Eldritch Blast being basically the best thing they have, as invocations tend to be pretty specific.

Do both have synergy? Yes, to a point. Warlock invocations often have Charisma as a saving throw, and Hexblades...well, they have uses for Charisma as their spellcasting abilty is based on it, plus Arcane Resistance (being the poor gish's Divine Grace). However, Warlocks don't often need Charisma if built appropriately, and the tricks that boost their Tier often involve Eldritch Blast, which you lack. The key is observing if Warlock invocations supplement Hexblade spells well, and...here's where things get interesting.

Spell- and invocation-wise, the Warlock's invocations add a few things the Hexblade lacks: for starters, Fly, alternate senses, elemental attacks (via Essence invocations applied to weapon damage) and expanded battlefield control options (Chilling Tentacles, mostly, though Stony Grasp also applies). Most are somewhat redundant (the Warlock grants at-will Invisibility, of which the Hexblade has access to; likewise, most of the Hexblade's spells become redundant with the Essence invocations applied to damage). The true place where the Warlock's invocations improve the Hexblade overall is when you take a "stacking debuff" strategy.

Consider the following - start by using, say, the Dark Companion ACF (if you need a familiar, there's always the Obtain Familiar feat). That already nets you a -2 to saves. With good Charisma, you can impose Sickening Blast on a weapon, which is another -2 to saves (that's -4 already). Stack, say, the shaken condition (through Intimidate, or one of the Hexblade's spells, or even Frightening Blast), and that's a -6. Then, set up the Hexblade's Curse for somewhere between a -2 to a -6 to saves...which was made already easy because of the earlier debuffs, meaning you could easily stack up to a -12 on saves. Stack the Curse of Despair invocation, which acts like Bestow Curse; that's another -4 to saves. By around 19th level, you're imposing any single enemy a -16 to all saves in around 3-4 rounds: by then, even a 1st level spell you cast will work, because that kind of debuff is insane. So, invocation-powered Hexblades become the ultimate debuffers, even assisting your actual CC specialists (Wizards, natch) to do their job easily on the big guns, and you're wasting essentially NO resources on it except turns (and Hexblade's Curses, of course). Do note I didn't mention Utterdark Blast - -2 negative levels is just overkill.

Now...beyond that, the Hexblade is limited to what it can do with feats and skills, plus its new invocations. Ideally, you could become a superb scout, but you lack Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search and Spot (you only have at-will Invisibility); you can make a very, VERY nice face-type character because of Charisma + Invocation + rank synergy, but you're only taking advantage of the +6 on one invocation that you could get through other means, since keeping it as one of your known invocations involves sacrificing others. The boost to combat from the Essence Invocations isn't exactly immense other than imposing rider effects, which can range from "great" to "meh" (great when debuffing, meh when the debuff isn't so great, and you don't actually get a damage boost so you still rely on Power Attack and whatnot). By what it can do innately, the Hexblade becomes even greater at one task (debuffing through melee combat), and decent in others, but not to the degree a Bard could pull off.

IMO, a Hexblade with Warlock invocations at full power would be borderline Tier 3, but reliably high Tier 4: as debuffers, they're scary. Between, say, Brutal Strike (PA + bludgeoning weapon = sicken for 1 round), Utterdark Blast, the Hexblade's Curse, the Curse of Despair invocation and a reliable way to shaken a target (Imperious Command sounds nice, and so does Never Outnumbered; add a way to do swift Intimidate and you're set), and you're looking at having your 1st level spells affect the opponent, unless it has complete immunity. Deviate from that synergy (like, trying to make an actual gish through buffing), and you're missing the point.

That said - I would love to see a build like that. Maybe as a Hexblade/Warlock gestalt? That way, you get a reliable ranged attack when necessary, plus stuff like free resistances, DR and fast healing, not to mention an expanded skill list in a better chassis.

[xyianth]

I'd place it as a low-mid T3, though it will vary a bit over the 20 levels. From level 1-5, the invocations are a significant boost over the standard hexblade. From level 6-10, the invocations are mostly going to be equivalent to free magic items. Most of the lesser invocations that you could pick from fall into 1 of three categories: borderline useless essence, 24hr buff (aka free magic item), thematic fluff power. From level 11-15 you get some of the best invocations available, this will be the high point. From 16-20 you can pick up some flavorful abilities or some powerful abilities, but rarely both. Sadly you will still be much weaker than a straight warlock, but you will have a significantly improved hexblade.

Before anyone points out that straight warlock is considered tier 4, I know. They are incorrectly labeled in my opinion. I don't know when they were assigned to tier 4, but I can only assume it was before other splatbooks expanded their invocation list. Even then, the scribe scroll feat makes them T3 with ease. I suppose if you are stuck in a campaign that doesn't allow crafting and limits you to CArc invocations, then I could see rating them tier 4.

One thing I would recommend: let the hexblade use an eldritch essence as part of a full attack, applying it to each attack. This shouldn't be unbalancing since warlocks can do so with eldritch glaive, and those are touch attacks.

[Troacctid]

Since you get Essence invocations, most likely you'll spend one of each of those 3 invocations per degree on them (ideally those that impose worthwhile penalties, like Sickening, Noxious or Utterdark, or those that change the damage type of the attack, like Hellrime or Vitriolic).
That would be a very poorly optimized build, then. Taking multiple essence invocations is pointless, since you can only use one--all the others would be a waste of an invocation slot. The only reason to do it would be if you need to qualify for Hellfire Warlock.

Also, if you're taking Fell Flight and Voidsense, you're not really maximizing your lesser invocations, as those abilities are easy to pick up without dedicating a valuable lesser invocation slot to them.


However, Warlocks don't often need Charisma if built appropriately, and the tricks that boost their Tier often involve Eldritch Blast, which you lack.
No, tricks to boost their tier involve UMD, crafting, effective feat selection, and strong invocation choices. (Or, alternately, good prestige classes like Sentinel of Bharrai or Urban Savant will also do the trick.) It's flexibility that gets you from T4 to T3, not higher damage.


Before anyone points out that straight warlock is considered tier 4, I know. They are incorrectly labeled in my opinion. I don't know when they were assigned to tier 4, but I can only assume it was before other splatbooks expanded their invocation list. Even then, the scribe scroll feat makes them T3 with ease. I suppose if you are stuck in a campaign that doesn't allow crafting and limits you to CArc invocations, then I could see rating them tier 4.
I believe it's because the listings avoided taking item use into account. Warlocks definitely go down in value if you take away their UMD. (There's a case that Rogue makes it to T3 with UMD exploitation as well.)

[nedz]

Like this old link (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?110567-Invoking-Hexblades) ?

T4

You need Warlock's two UMD class features for T3+

[xyianth]

I believe it's because the listings avoided taking item use into account. Warlocks definitely go down in value if you take away their UMD. (There's a case that Rogue makes it to T3 with UMD exploitation as well.)

While that's true, there is a significant difference between the warlock and the rogue when it comes to UMD exploitation: Imbue Item. Not counting items for a class that gets the ability to make any item trivially as a class feature seems unfairly restrictive. Rogues can't make what they use, so I can see why that might not be counted. A warlock that isn't making items is not using one of the best class features (s)he has. It would be like rating druid without natural spell, you could but why would you?

[gadren]

Think I'm going to go with this:


Hexblades gain the Warlock's Invocations class feature. This feature advances as if the Hexblade was a Warlock of the same level, gaining new invocations and access to higher grades of invocations as described under the Warlock class. A multiclass Hexblade/Warlock adds the levels of both classes together to determine the grade of invocations they have access to.
Hexblades may apply the effects of eldritch essence invocations to their weapon attacks instead of their eldritch blasts.
At level 2, Hexblades gain the Eldritch Blast class feature, as if a level 1 Warlock. The damage of the blast is increased by 1d6 at levels 5, 8, 11, 14, and 17.
At level 5, Hexblades treat any weapon they wield as if it had the conductive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/conductive)special ability.

[Troacctid]

Are you giving them the eldritch essences on every attack, or just one attack per turn? And did you want any special rules for combining them with the Conductive property? As you have it now, the Hexblade can essentially apply his essences twice on every attack; I'm not sure if that's the intent.

[Red Fel]

Here's the bottom line, as I see it.

The Tier System is a metric of basic versatility; that is, how much the class can do on its own, and how well.

As a result, unless two identical classes are involved, you are generally likely to improve a class' Tier by combining it with another.

There's a but. And that but is that while the difference between, say, Tiers 3 and 4 is a subject for debate, frequently boiling down to a hair-thin distinction, the difference between Tiers 2 and 3 is profound. A Tier 3 class can do several things, or one thing exceptionally well. A Tier 2 class can do anything.

Unless you combine a class with a Tier 1 or 2 class, it is virtually impossible to cross the threshold from Tier 3 to Tier 2. It would take a significant alteration, possibly involving not just two, but three or more classes.

Hexblade is fairly solidly Tier 4. Warlock hovers between Tiers 3 and 4. Adding Warlock invocations and EB damage onto Hexblade's BAB, proficiencies, and spellcasting could reasonably put the product into Tier 3. But no higher.

You've basically designed a slightly stronger Warlock. Let's face it, the big advantage is the BAB and the spells. Arcane Resistance is nice, Hexblade's Curse is a waste, Mettle is useful. And hey, Familiar. But otherwise, it's a meh class aside from the spells. You can say you're putting a Warlock's invocations onto a Hexblade, but really you're just giving a tougher Warlock Hexblade casting. That's not going to get you above Tier 3.

[gadren]

Are you giving them the eldritch essences on every attack, or just one attack per turn? And did you want any special rules for combining them with the Conductive property? As you have it now, the Hexblade can essentially apply his essences twice on every attack; I'm not sure if that's the intent.

Hmm, that was not the intent. Will have to rework it a bit.

EDIT: I'm fine with them applying the essence every attack, but not with them stacking up. How about adding this line in there:

"Hexblades may only use one Eldritch Essence invocation per turn. If they have multiple qualifying attacks in the same turn, they may apply the effects of the same invocation once to each attack."

[tsj]

Very interesting combo..
What if.. the class automatically gained access to all invocations? That is. .. each time the class rises in max invocation rank, the class would gain ALL the invocations at a paticularly invocation level... such as all least, later all lesser invocations, later all greater and in the end all dark?

Would that be tier 1 if we include all invocations from all splat books?

Or would it be 2 or 3?

Would some modifications to the hex blade spell list be needed to reach tier 1?

[gadren]

Very interesting combo..
What if.. the class automatically gained access to all invocations? That is. .. each time the class rises in max invocation rank, the class would gain ALL the invocations at a paticularly invocation level... such as all least, later all lesser invocations, later all greater and in the end all dark?

Would that be tier 1 if we include all invocations from all splat books?

Or would it be 2 or 3?

Would some modifications to the hex blade spell list be needed to reach tier 1?

I'm actually just aiming for high tier 3. I don't know about the rest of that.

[Troacctid]

Very interesting combo..
What if.. the class automatically gained access to all invocations? That is. .. each time the class rises in max invocation rank, the class would gain ALL the invocations at a paticularly invocation level... such as all least, later all lesser invocations, later all greater and in the end all dark?

Would that be tier 1 if we include all invocations from all splat books?

Or would it be 2 or 3?

Would some modifications to the hex blade spell list be needed to reach tier 1?

It would be a poor design decision, I think, since most of the levels would become dead and a one-level dip would become pretty overpowered. Also, the limited set of invocations is one of the core principles of the class--it would be kind of like if you decided Sorcerers have too few spells known and just gave them every spell instead.

[T.G. Oskar]

That would be a very poorly optimized build, then. Taking multiple essence invocations is pointless, since you can only use one--all the others would be a waste of an invocation slot. The only reason to do it would be if you need to qualify for Hellfire Warlock.

That, or play through Epic levels, where you can add two (Master of Essences feat).

However, it all depends on your focus. Certainly, taking Hellrime Blast alongside Vitriolic Blast might seem redundant since the latter is extremely effective compared to the former (better damage type, ignore SR which is one of EB's weaknesses), and there are methods to change your EB element when you need it the most (Gloves of Eldritch Admixture), but it'd be foolish to ignore the worth of some of the other Essences, in particular Sickening, Noxious and Utterdark. The first grants a debuff that's not easily resisted (like any of the fear conditions), which can be a set-up for allies' debuffs. The second is relatively high level and if optimized well, it can take people out of combat while dealing damage. And, finally, two negative levels always hurt. The problem, of course, is making them stick, and that you need to choose which one applies when. If your focus is damage, then Vitriolic is all you need; if you wish to do some debuffing as well (look at it in the context of the Hexblade), then Sickening, Noxious and Utterdark are also worthwhile.


Also, if you're taking Fell Flight and Voidsense, you're not really maximizing your lesser invocations, as those abilities are easy to pick up without dedicating a valuable lesser invocation slot to them.

I consider that the problem of the invocations themselves, as they're basically abilities that sacrifice one invocation slot for a 1-day use (if they were supernatural, they wouldn't be dispelled; since they're SLAs, the only reason you want to use them again is to recharge your use). I can agree with flight (Feathered Wings graft is affordable, takes no slot and you're only mildly inconvenienced by Evil, which is definitely something the Warlock doesn't care), but Blindsense is a tad harder.

Would you consider the same of, say, Beguiling Influence (+6 to all face skills for one day), or Dark One's Own Luck (gain 1/3rd the benefit of Divine Grace for 1 day?)


No, tricks to boost their tier involve UMD, crafting, effective feat selection, and strong invocation choices. (Or, alternately, good prestige classes like Sentinel of Bharrai or Urban Savant will also do the trick.) It's flexibility that gets you from T4 to T3, not higher damage.

Think of the first recommendation (at least in this forum) people give to those asking for advice on a Warlock. More often than not, it's "go Binder 1 for Naberius, then Eldritch Glaive/Eldritch Claws, then Hellfire Warlock all the way". That's straight damage optimization. Very few times you listen to "take Scribe Scroll, a Thought Bottle, then write up as many spells as you can on downtime, then take stuff like Circlet of Persuasion and Skill Focus (UMD) to use them reliably". The closest one is "take Warlock up to 12, then Chameleon 2 for the floating feat".

Outside of a floating feat, spending your feat slots on crafting means you're left one less feat slot for everyday adventuring, and is highly dependent on downtime. For every feat slot you take on item crafting feats, you're delaying or hindering stuff you can take for any given battle. The fact that you get both arcane and divine spell slot access for purposes of activating scrolls means you rely less on UMD, making Chameleon more effective.

That leaves the selection of invocations, and that mostly relies on what focus you intend to follow. For damage, you only need Vitriolic Blast; for debuffing and some battlefield control, stuff like Charm and Chilling Tentacles (and that is still not enough).

Certainly, damage optimization isn't the only, or the most reliable way to optimize a Warlock, but it's the one that first comes to mind when people ask for Warlock optimization (it also fits with "good PrCs" with Hellfire Warlock; I'm genuinely curious how Urban Savant aids the Warlock, and so with Sentinel of Bharrai other than "be a mini-Druid with more Energy Resistance").

[nedz]

Hexblade is fairly solidly Tier 4. Warlock hovers between Tiers 3 and 4. Adding Warlock invocations and EB damage onto Hexblade's BAB, proficiencies, and spellcasting could reasonably put the product into Tier 3. But no higher.

You've basically designed a slightly stronger Warlock. Let's face it, the big advantage is the BAB and the spells. Arcane Resistance is nice, Hexblade's Curse is a waste, Mettle is useful. And hey, Familiar. But otherwise, it's a meh class aside from the spells. You can say you're putting a Warlock's invocations onto a Hexblade, but really you're just giving a tougher Warlock Hexblade casting. That's not going to get you above Tier 3.

I would ague that Warlock is T4 without the UMD abusing class features. This class doesn't get those so it's not a stronger Warlock, but a weaker one since it has less flexibility. So you're harder to take down, can hit more often and have some weak casting on the side: Good for a melle Warlock but not tier raising.

[xyianth]

Think of the first recommendation (at least in this forum) people give to those asking for advice on a Warlock. More often than not, it's "go Binder 1 for Naberius, then Eldritch Glaive/Eldritch Claws, then Hellfire Warlock all the way". That's straight damage optimization. Very few times you listen to "take Scribe Scroll, a Thought Bottle, then write up as many spells as you can on downtime, then take stuff like Circlet of Persuasion and Skill Focus (UMD) to use them reliably". The closest one is "take Warlock up to 12, then Chameleon 2 for the floating feat".

Outside of a floating feat, spending your feat slots on crafting means you're left one less feat slot for everyday adventuring, and is highly dependent on downtime. For every feat slot you take on item crafting feats, you're delaying or hindering stuff you can take for any given battle. The fact that you get both arcane and divine spell slot access for purposes of activating scrolls means you rely less on UMD, making Chameleon more effective.

That leaves the selection of invocations, and that mostly relies on what focus you intend to follow. For damage, you only need Vitriolic Blast; for debuffing and some battlefield control, stuff like Charm and Chilling Tentacles (and that is still not enough).

Certainly, damage optimization isn't the only, or the most reliable way to optimize a Warlock, but it's the one that first comes to mind when people ask for Warlock optimization (it also fits with "good PrCs" with Hellfire Warlock; I'm genuinely curious how Urban Savant aids the Warlock, and so with Sentinel of Bharrai other than "be a mini-Druid with more Energy Resistance").

Well, yes but you have to consider that anyone asking for advice for their warlock is almost guaranteed to be interested in warlock as a damage dealing class. Blame WotC for that, but no one reads the warlock class description and thinks: 'Oh I can control the battlefield and buff my team.' Of course the first advice is how to fix the pathetically low damage of the class (i.e. hellfire glaivelock)

The best battlefield control invocations are: Noxious Blast, Chilling Tentacles, Nightmares Made Real, Incarnum Blast, and to a lesser extent: Cocoon of Refuse, Beshadowed Blast, and Charm. The essences are best when chained, which the proposed hexblade will unfortunately be unable to do.

Urban Savant is often taken instead of Ruathar to fix skill point issues inherent to the warlock chassis. It also provides interesting knowledge based tricks that complement a character that uses knowledge devotion. Sentinel of Bharrai is all about the polar bear shape. You become large size and gain a massive strength, so your glaive becomes 20' and basically never misses. Both PrCs represent decent boosts for the right build with minimal investment required. This is made even better by the fact that warlocks really don't have many required feats to be effective. The only thing worth staying in warlock for is Imbue Item. No one will ever care about an extra point or two of DR/cold iron and 1/day fast healing for a few rounds. If you are going to use Imbue Item, the chameleon bonus feat and/or astaroth binding is the best way to optimize it. If you are not going to use it, any full casting PrC that you can qualify for is virtually guaranteed to provide you with more valuable features than staying warlock.

[Troacctid]

but it'd be foolish to ignore the worth of some of the other Essences, in particular Sickening, Noxious and Utterdark. The first grants a debuff that's not easily resisted (like any of the fear conditions), which can be a set-up for allies' debuffs. The second is relatively high level and if optimized well, it can take people out of combat while dealing damage. And, finally, two negative levels always hurt. The problem, of course, is making them stick, and that you need to choose which one applies when. If your focus is damage, then Vitriolic is all you need; if you wish to do some debuffing as well (look at it in the context of the Hexblade), then Sickening, Noxious and Utterdark are also worthwhile.
I can imagine a build that might want Noxious and Vitriolic, but Sickening, Noxious, and Utterdark all target the same save and don't stack in any useful way. (Noxious Blast takes them out of the fight as soon as they fail the save, so you don't need to target them with anything else, and Utterdark Blast already stacks with itself, so you don't need to tag it out for a different essence. And Sickening Blast is more or less just strictly worse than the others.) I don't see why you'd want more than one of the three.


but Blindsense is a tad harder.
Your familiar has it.


Would you consider the same of, say, Beguiling Influence (+6 to all face skills for one day), or Dark One's Own Luck (gain 1/3rd the benefit of Divine Grace for 1 day?)
Beguiling Influence stacks with everything and gives quite a large bonus, so it's pretty good. Dark One's Own Luck usually gives a fairly paltry bonus, but I like it at higher levels if you're stacking Charisma.


Think of the first recommendation (at least in this forum) people give to those asking for advice on a Warlock. More often than not, it's "go Binder 1 for Naberius, then Eldritch Glaive/Eldritch Claws, then Hellfire Warlock all the way". That's straight damage optimization. Very few times you listen to "take Scribe Scroll, a Thought Bottle, then write up as many spells as you can on downtime, then take stuff like Circlet of Persuasion and Skill Focus (UMD) to use them reliably". The closest one is "take Warlock up to 12, then Chameleon 2 for the floating feat".
Just because people recommend it doesn't mean it's good. In fact, in most builds, I'd argue the Binder dip is actively bad. Spending a full class level is vastly less efficient than spending a few hundred gold on a Wand of Lesser Restoration, delaying access to greater invocations is very painful on a blasting-focused build, and glaivelocks in particular can't afford to lose the BAB. It's only worthwhile at level 18+, after you've gotten whatever dark invocations you wanted, and most games aren't played at that high a level.


The best battlefield control invocations are: Noxious Blast, Chilling Tentacles, Nightmares Made Real, Incarnum Blast, and to a lesser extent: Cocoon of Refuse, Beshadowed Blast, and Charm. The essences are best when chained, which the proposed hexblade will unfortunately be unable to do.
I'm pretty sure Incarnum Blast is mostly just strictly worse than Noxious Blast. Same save DC, except the debuff only lasts one round and like ten times as many enemies are immune to it. I guess it's okay if you also have Incarnum Shroud for infinite essentia, since that adds 4d6 extra damage to it, but even then it's only against creatures of the opposing alignment, and it's not like 4d6 is a lot once you're in the 16-20 range.

[xyianth]

I'm pretty sure Incarnum Blast is mostly just strictly worse than Noxious Blast. Same save DC, except the debuff only lasts one round and like ten times as many enemies are immune to it. I guess it's okay if you also have Incarnum Shroud for infinite essentia, since that adds 4d6 extra damage to it, but even then it's only against creatures of the opposing alignment, and it's not like 4d6 is a lot once you're in the 16-20 range.

Noxious Blast is better, but in specific situations Incarnum Blast can really shine. Specifically if 90+% of your opponents are evil outsiders and you are good aligned. In almost all other situations, Noxious Blast is the better option. I usually grab Noxious Blast as my fort debuff, Nightmares Made Real as my will debuff, and Chilling Tentacles as my backup debuff. I'll sometimes pick up Vitriolic Blast as one of my dark options as well to deal with high SR foes.

[Troacctid]

Noxious Blast is better, but in specific situations Incarnum Blast can really shine. Specifically if 90+% of your opponents are evil outsiders and you are good aligned. In almost all other situations, Noxious Blast is the better option. I usually grab Noxious Blast as my fort debuff, Nightmares Made Real as my will debuff, and Chilling Tentacles as my backup debuff. I'll sometimes pick up Vitriolic Blast as one of my dark options as well to deal with high SR foes.

Evil outsiders are just as vulnerable to Noxious Blast, though. Why take an invocation that only works against them when you can take an invocation that works against them and everyone else, and comes with a debuff that's just actually more powerful? (Nauseated for 10 rounds is way more debilitating than dazed for 1 round.)

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, yes but you have to consider that anyone asking for advice for their warlock is almost guaranteed to be interested in warlock as a damage dealing class. Blame WotC for that, but no one reads the warlock class description and thinks: 'Oh I can control the battlefield and buff my team.' Of course the first advice is how to fix the pathetically low damage of the class (i.e. hellfire glaivelock)

I don't see exactly how you can "buff" your team other than Dark Foresight (if you talk about the strict definition of a "buff", since you can't provide Flight, Blindsense or Invisibility to your party), but I agree that most people don't notice the potential for battlefield control. Even subpar invocations like Earthen/Stony Grasp work with that, not to mention the Darkness-related invocations (Darkness, Enervating Shadow).

That said - boosting damage is still the #1 recommendation for Warlock optimization. The fact that you can achieve that AND battlefield control via correct choice of invocations is a plus (Hellfire Noxious Chain, for example).


The best battlefield control invocations are: Noxious Blast, Chilling Tentacles, Nightmares Made Real, Incarnum Blast, and to a lesser extent: Cocoon of Refuse, Beshadowed Blast, and Charm. The essences are best when chained, which the proposed hexblade will unfortunately be unable to do.

Chilling Tentacles is already an AoE, and IIRC, so does Nightmares Made Real, so you don't need to chain those. True about Charm, though, even if it's useful only on humanoids (because it replicates Charm Person, not Charm Monster).

On the other hand - a Hexblade that focuses on ranged attacks could probably spread the debuff to longer distances, particularly if it has Rapid Shot or Greater Manyshot (to target more than one opponent). That should work for Noxious, Incarnum, Beshadowed, and I insist, Sickening and Utterdark (though you can drop Sickening if you go the melee route and Power Attack anyways).


Urban Savant is often taken instead of Ruathar to fix skill point issues inherent to the warlock chassis. It also provides interesting knowledge based tricks that complement a character that uses knowledge devotion. Sentinel of Bharrai is all about the polar bear shape. You become large size and gain a massive strength, so your glaive becomes 20' and basically never misses. Both PrCs represent decent boosts for the right build with minimal investment required. This is made even better by the fact that warlocks really don't have many required feats to be effective. The only thing worth staying in warlock for is Imbue Item. No one will ever care about an extra point or two of DR/cold iron and 1/day fast healing for a few rounds. If you are going to use Imbue Item, the chameleon bonus feat and/or astaroth binding is the best way to optimize it. If you are not going to use it, any full casting PrC that you can qualify for is virtually guaranteed to provide you with more valuable features than staying warlock.

Question - how can you use SLAs (and by definition, invocations) while Polymorphed? Even the Druid needs Natural Spell to cast its spells. You're there mostly to become a Fighter-lite, perhaps with pre-cast invocations like the 24-hr. or Invisibility buffs.

Also - that's the ONLY reason to go Urban Savant? I would have expected more synergy than "more skill points", particularly if you can net another PrC that does both more skill points and near-full casting progression, in particular if that also involves, as you mention, "(providing) you with more valuable features than staying warlock". Possibly a reason why I don't see it as a must-go PrC for Warlock unlike Chameleon or Hellfire Warlock (or even the basic Mindbender dip for Telepathy; not that Urban Savant is bad, but as the IC competition shows, somewhat difficult to work with).


I can imagine a build that might want Noxious and Vitriolic, but Sickening, Noxious, and Utterdark all target the same save and don't stack in any useful way. (Noxious Blast takes them out of the fight as soon as they fail the save, so you don't need to target them with anything else, and Utterdark Blast already stacks with itself, so you don't need to tag it out for a different essence. And Sickening Blast is more or less just strictly worse than the others.) I don't see why you'd want more than one of the three.

They all target Fortitude, and that's good enough for some spellcasters (provided they don't go for complete negation or high Fort builds). The idea is to stack penalties to saves, so that even a 1st level Fear spell hits the target; Sickening and Utterdark work in that regard by imposing two different kinds of penalties. Perhaps you could choose just Noxious and Utterdark if you find a way to impose the Sicken condition (i.e. Brutal Strike), but don't deny that stacking penalties, even to the point of overkill, is a useful tactic. With the Hexblade having its own curses and penalties, you can use order of operations to essentially murder a save, often with little to no resources wasted.


Your familiar has it.

Fair point, though the familiar will then have to point where the enemy is, potentially endangering it. At least the Hexblade has Augment Familiar to make it meatier.


Beguiling Influence stacks with everything and gives quite a large bonus, so it's pretty good. Dark One's Own Luck usually gives a fairly paltry bonus, but I like it at higher levels if you're stacking Charisma.

It stacks, but it still eats an invocation slot. If protesting about at-will flight or at-will blindsense, might as well protest about a semi-permanent boost to face skills, when there's several ways to get them.


Just because people recommend it doesn't mean it's good. In fact, in most builds, I'd argue the Binder dip is actively bad. Spending a full class level is vastly less efficient than spending a few hundred gold on a Wand of Lesser Restoration, delaying access to greater invocations is very painful on a blasting-focused build, and glaivelocks in particular can't afford to lose the BAB. It's only worthwhile at level 18+, after you've gotten whatever dark invocations you wanted, and most games aren't played at that high a level.

Again: the case here is that the first recommendation for Warlock optimization is "boost Warlock damage", which echoes what xyianth mentions that most people are guided by that philosophy, instead of focusing on the Warlock's at-will battlefield control, face capabilities, skill at UMD and (potentially) crafting superiority. The Binder dip has been ingrained because of the utility of Naberius, which doesn't necessarily limit to healing ability damage (in fact, ironically, Naberius works well to provide a boost to face skills (Silver Tongue) and Disguise (Disguise Self), plus lets you use skills untrained (Naberius' skills; good if you have Knowledge Devotion to boost attack and damage). However, it's everyone's prerogative to use that or rely on a cheaper Wand of Lesser Restoration (or even an Eternal Wand of Lesser Restoration) or bind Naberius. Few people recommend focusing on "exploit UMD/crafting" as part of expanding the Warlock's flexibility rather than "boost Warlock damage". In fact, if worked correctly, you can dabble in nearly ALL of the aspects (boost Warlock damage, provide battlefield control, exploit UMD, exploit crafting) and end up being quite strong (the effort of Hellfire Warlock basically takes 5 levels of a PrC that already provides a boost to Invocations, there's no need to go beyond Warlock 12 so you can take up to 8 levels, meaning you can get 2 levels of Chameleon after getting Dark Invocations, and if you consider the investment sound, you could aim for Scribe Scroll early on). Effective optimization or not, Hellfire Eldritch Glaive shenanigans isn't a deep investment in comparison to, say, going for Ubercharger or Leaping Combat Brute Shock Trooper PA shenanigans, and it's deeply ingrained so it becomes the first advice for Warlock optimization. Stacking debuffs is not, and it's one that can bring increasing rewards when properly chained (and with a Hexblade, it can be done frighteningly well).

[Honest Tiefling]

Are you allowing the Dark Companion Alternate Class Feature? I admit, I am nowhere as good at optimization as others, but I would forsee a build stacking the Dark Companion, some sort of debuff Essence, other classes allowing as many attacks as possible, and invisibility. Probably not all that powerful, but still something to consider.

I wonder if there's a way to get a spell (like the ray spells) or allies tossed into battle to count as 'weapons'.

[gadren]

Are you allowing the Dark Companion Alternate Class Feature? I admit, I am nowhere as good at optimization as others, but I would forsee a build stacking the Dark Companion, some sort of debuff Essence, other classes allowing as many attacks as possible, and invisibility. Probably not all that powerful, but still something to consider.

I wonder if there's a way to get a spell (like the ray spells) or allies tossed into battle to count as 'weapons'.

Don't ray spells already count as weapons? I suppose that means my Hexblade could add eldritch essence invocations to rays, though I believe there's already like two prestige classes that do that.

[Honest Tiefling]

Don't ray spells already count as weapons? I suppose that means my Hexblade could add eldritch essence invocations to rays, though I believe there's already like two prestige classes that do that.

I couldn't find any rules-fu, but I only did a quick check. You can get Weapon Focus: Ray, but that doesn't necessarily make it a weapon, I think. I believe it is a weapon-like spell? Question is, do you WANT it to apply to ray spells? I don't think the Hexblade gets a whole heapton of those, but a multiclass character might. Then again, if this is the same campaign as the other thread, there's not a lot of castery classes to use.

[gadren]

I couldn't find any rules-fu, but I only did a quick check. You can get Weapon Focus: Ray, but that doesn't necessarily make it a weapon, I think. I believe it is a weapon-like spell? Question is, do you WANT it to apply to ray spells? I don't think the Hexblade gets a whole heapton of those, but a multiclass character might. Then again, if this is the same campaign as the other thread, there's not a lot of castery classes to use.

It is the same campaign, and I don't really care either way. I don't think being able to apply essences to rays is a big deal since it requires some suboptimal multiclassing and there prestige classes that do the same thing already anyway.

[xyianth]

I don't see exactly how you can "buff" your team other than Dark Foresight (if you talk about the strict definition of a "buff", since you can't provide Flight, Blindsense or Invisibility to your party), but I agree that most people don't notice the potential for battlefield control. Even subpar invocations like Earthen/Stony Grasp work with that, not to mention the Darkness-related invocations (Darkness, Enervating Shadow).

You can buff your party with a handful of invocations, but what I meant by buffing was buying/making scrolls/wands and then UMDing them. This is a core feature of warlocks, not just one skill among many in a list. You don't have to use it for buffing of course, but you can. My main point in including it was that the WotC description of the class makes exactly zero mention of this possibility, and therefore it is non-obvious to the type of person that comes to these forums to ask for advice on building a character.


That said - boosting damage is still the #1 recommendation for Warlock optimization. The fact that you can achieve that AND battlefield control via correct choice of invocations is a plus (Hellfire Noxious Chain, for example).

No argument here, but that was not the point I was making. Boosting damage is the #1 recommendation because damage is the number one reason someone wants to build a warlock, not because it is the only thing they are good at. Playing a damage dealer is also much, much less difficult than playing a battlefield controller for someone without much system mastery. This is the same reason that new wizards/sorcerers make the mistake of blasting instead of dropping stinking clouds.


Chilling Tentacles is already an AoE, and IIRC, so does Nightmares Made Real, so you don't need to chain those. True about Charm, though, even if it's useful only on humanoids (because it replicates Charm Person, not Charm Monster).

:smallsigh: I said that chain applied to essences, which you will note does not include Chilling Tentacles and Nightmares Made Real. Essences != Invocations. Charm does not replicate charm person, it does in fact replicate charm monster. It has the semi-annoying caveat that it is language dependent though. This is easy to overcome however with a dip in mindbender for telepathy.


On the other hand - a Hexblade that focuses on ranged attacks could probably spread the debuff to longer distances, particularly if it has Rapid Shot or Greater Manyshot (to target more than one opponent). That should work for Noxious, Incarnum, Beshadowed, and I insist, Sickening and Utterdark (though you can drop Sickening if you go the melee route and Power Attack anyways).

This is a decent point, and one that I had not previously considered. It is still a waste of limited invocation slots to take all of those essences because they are all save-or-suck debuffs that target the same save with the same DC. Of the five, Noxious Blast applies the best debuff and affects the most number of creatures. There is little reason to take the others besides fluff/theme.


Question - how can you use SLAs (and by definition, invocations) while Polymorphed? Even the Druid needs Natural Spell to cast its spells. You're there mostly to become a Fighter-lite, perhaps with pre-cast invocations like the 24-hr. or Invisibility buffs.

Unlike polymorph, the bear shape of Sentinel of Bharrai allows you full normal speech. Combined with the other class features, it appears (to me at least) that the intent was to allow casting spells while in bear shape. While it does not mention somatic components specifically, there is always the surrogate spellcasting feat in savage species if your DM rules that you can't otherwise perform the somatic components necessary to use eldritch glaive.


Also - that's the ONLY reason to go Urban Savant? I would have expected more synergy than "more skill points", particularly if you can net another PrC that does both more skill points and near-full casting progression, in particular if that also involves, as you mention, "(providing) you with more valuable features than staying warlock". Possibly a reason why I don't see it as a must-go PrC for Warlock unlike Chameleon or Hellfire Warlock (or even the basic Mindbender dip for Telepathy; not that Urban Savant is bad, but as the IC competition shows, somewhat difficult to work with).

A) You mentioned Urban Savant, not me. All I did was provide a reason for why it might be taken by a warlock. If you were expecting Pun-Pun level shenanigans from this PrC, I am sorry to disappoint. B) Which PrC are you thinking of that provides more than 6+int skill points and full casting that a warlock can qualify for? I'd love to know. C) There is not one single PrC for any warlock that is a 'must-go.' In fact, the only 'must-go' PrC for any base class in the entirety of D&D 3.5 that I can think of is Rainbow Servant for Warmages. And even that is subject to argument. Urban Savant is merely one of the handful of PrCs that warlocks can qualify for without jumping through hoops to count as a true spellcaster. I've rarely seen it mentioned in warlock advice threads. Normally, people recommend Ruathar instead. (It achieves the same full casting and skill points and is even easier to qualify for)


They all target Fortitude, and that's good enough for some spellcasters (provided they don't go for complete negation or high Fort builds). The idea is to stack penalties to saves, so that even a 1st level Fear spell hits the target; Sickening and Utterdark work in that regard by imposing two different kinds of penalties. Perhaps you could choose just Noxious and Utterdark if you find a way to impose the Sicken condition (i.e. Brutal Strike), but don't deny that stacking penalties, even to the point of overkill, is a useful tactic. With the Hexblade having its own curses and penalties, you can use order of operations to essentially murder a save, often with little to no resources wasted.

The difference is that when some spellcasters grab more than 1 save-or-suck Fort save spell, they are different levels and so have different DCs. Warlock invocations don't work that way. All of those essences offer the exact same save DC. Given that the vast majority of encounters in a normal D&D game are over before the 5th round starts, using 4-5 rounds of actions to sack a single creature's saves is an extremely niche tactic that you are spending 5/12 of your invocation slots on. Can you do it? Sure. Should you? No (from an optimization perspective at least, if that is your character concept, go nuts :smalltongue:)

[Troacctid]

Question - how can you use SLAs (and by definition, invocations) while Polymorphed? Even the Druid needs Natural Spell to cast its spells.
You can cast spells while Polymorphed because it's based on Alter Self, and you can cast spells while Alter Self'd, so yeah.


Also - that's the ONLY reason to go Urban Savant? I would have expected more synergy than "more skill points", particularly if you can net another PrC that does both more skill points and near-full casting progression, in particular if that also involves, as you mention, "(providing) you with more valuable features than staying warlock". Possibly a reason why I don't see it as a must-go PrC for Warlock unlike Chameleon or Hellfire Warlock (or even the basic Mindbender dip for Telepathy; not that Urban Savant is bad, but as the IC competition shows, somewhat difficult to work with).
Urban Savant is 10/10 casting and has great class features. It's very easy to work with, and it's never been featured in Iron Chef.


The idea is to stack penalties to saves, so that even a 1st level Fear spell hits the target; Sickening and Utterdark work in that regard by imposing two different kinds of penalties. Perhaps you could choose just Noxious and Utterdark if you find a way to impose the Sicken condition (i.e. Brutal Strike), but don't deny that stacking penalties, even to the point of overkill, is a useful tactic.
I'm not going to deny that stacking penalties is useful, but Sickening + Utterdark is just straight-up worse than using Utterdark twice. The negative levels already stack. If you switch to Sickening Blast, you're just taking -6 to your save DC for no reason. As for Noxious and Utterdark, if you can hit them with Noxious, you don't need to hit them with anything else, because they're out of the fight.


A) You mentioned Urban Savant, not me.
Actually I mentioned it. :smalltongue:

It's just a generally powerful prestige class that gives you additional options at a low cost. It's good for Warlocks because of how easily they can qualify and how little they give up to take it. Halfling Whistler is in a similar spot.

[xyianth]

Urban Savant is 10/10 casting and has great class features. It's very easy to work with, and it's never been featured in Iron Chef.

9/10 actually, but the lost level is at 10th level.



I'm not going to deny that stacking penalties is useful, but Sickening + Utterdark is just straight-up worse than using Utterdark twice. The negative levels already stack. If you switch to Sickening Blast, you're just taking -6 to your save DC for no reason. As for Noxious and Utterdark, if you can hit them with Noxious, you don't need to hit them with anything else, because they're out of the fight.

Whoops, you are correct, the DCs do change. My mistake.



Actually I mentioned it. :smalltongue:

It's just a generally powerful prestige class that gives you additional options at a low cost. It's good for Warlocks because of how easily they can qualify and how little they give up to take it. Halfling Whistler is in a similar spot.

Fair enough :smallsmile:

[AmberVael]

Boosting damage is the #1 recommendation because damage is the number one reason someone wants to build a warlock, not because it is the only thing they are good at.
While eldritch blast is one of the most prominent features of Warlock, I don't think I would call it the number one reason someone wants to build a warlock. My general understanding is that its biggest appeal is its 'at will' magic.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say that boosting damage is the #1 suggestion because LACK of damage is the number one frustration with the class. It's relevant to most builds, and is usually the first thing you notice at the table- especially at lower op levels.