Tiefling got a major boost?

[Waazraath]

I was reading the SCAG, and noticed the tiefling got very good alternative racial features. The ability score swich ('feral') is great: instead of +2 cha +1 int, you get +2 dex +1 int. Since there isn't a class / subclass that works with both int and cha, that made the race rather weak. The dex + int increase though, is great for eldritch knights, arcane tricksters and all wizards.

And that's without the 'wings' option! Imo, the winged tiefling variant is better then the Aarakocra. For those who have a DM that allows permanent fly at lvl one, that is (don't think there will be many...)

[Zman]

I was reading the SCAG, and noticed the tiefling got very good alternative racial features. The ability score swich ('feral') is great: instead of +2 cha +1 int, you get +2 dex +1 int. Since there isn't a class / subclass that works with both int and cha, that made the race rather weak. The dex + int increase though, is great for eldritch knights, arcane tricksters and all wizards.

And that's without the 'wings' option! Imo, the winged tiefling variant is better then the Aarakocra. For those who have a DM that allows permanent fly at lvl one, that is (don't think there will be many...)

IMO DMs need to be very careful about allowing PCs with a fly speed. The only permanent class ability comes at 14th for Sorcerers. Fly spell comes with inherent weaknesses.

If a DM allows the race, the need to make sure it isn't abused too badly or the player recieves sufficient attention for flying, etc. and if knocked unconscious while flying falling to their death...

[Shining Wrath]

IMO DMs need to be very careful about allowing PCs with a fly speed. The only permanent class ability comes at 14th for Sorcerers. Fly spell comes with inherent weaknesses.

If a DM allows the race, the need to make sure it isn't abused too badly or the player recieves sufficient attention for flying, etc. and if knocked unconscious while flying falling to their death...

Also in SCAG: Storm Sorcerers get fly at 18, which is late - but they can share it with their friends and give the entire party fly for an hour.

[JellyPooga]

IMO DMs need to be very careful about allowing PCs with a fly speed.

Whilst I tentatively agree, I would also say that it's not really that big of a deal. With the exception of being able to bypass certain obstacles with ease (chasms, pits, rivers, cliffs, etc.), all permanent flight really does is remove you from melee range. You can't fly so far out of reach that ranged attacks aren't going to threaten you unless you, yourself, are unable to participate meaningfully in the combat. Flying foes are relatively common, even from very early levels (Stirges spring immediately to mind, as do Gargoyles, Harpies and even Wyrmling Dragons, to name but a few). Then there's wingspan to consider; a 6ft humanoid will likely have at least a 12ft wingspan. Easy way to stop them flying? Put them in a standard issue 5ft corridor. Magical fly speeds are far superior in that regard.

[MaxWilson]

Whilst I tentatively agree, I would also say that it's not really that big of a deal. With the exception of being able to bypass certain obstacles with ease (chasms, pits, rivers, cliffs, etc.), all permanent flight really does is remove you from melee range. You can't fly so far out of reach that ranged attacks aren't going to threaten you unless you, yourself, are unable to participate meaningfully in the combat. Flying foes are relatively common, even from very early levels (Stirges spring immediately to mind, as do Gargoyles, Harpies and even Wyrmling Dragons, to name but a few). Then there's wingspan to consider; a 6ft humanoid will likely have at least a 12ft wingspan. Easy way to stop them flying? Put them in a standard issue 5ft corridor. Magical fly speeds are far superior in that regard.

Yes, this. And it's not the only way to do so either. Variant humans can get Mobile from level 1, which basically does the same job as flight in terms of removing you from melee. Even spending 50 gp on a camel will keep you out of melee due to the way Mounted Combat rules work in 5E.

However, I don't really agree with "You can't fly so far out of reach that ranged attacks aren't going to threaten you unless you, yourself, are unable to participate meaningfully in the combat." A monk, for example, can hang out at long range and be essentially immune to missile fire (due to Deflect Missiles on the rare hit) while inflicting a fair amount of damage with a longbow in return (since monsters generally have poor ACs). That's meaningful participation.

[JellyPooga]

However, I don't really agree with "You can't fly so far out of reach that ranged attacks aren't going to threaten you unless you, yourself, are unable to participate meaningfully in the combat." A monk, for example, can hang out at long range and be essentially immune to missile fire (due to Deflect Missiles on the rare hit) while inflicting a fair amount of damage with a longbow in return (since monsters generally have poor ACs). That's meaningful participation.

Whilst technically true, it's also very dependent on the dimensions of the scenario; fighting in a 60ft corridor with a door at either end, for example, does that same Monk no favours and prohibits any meaningful use out of the ability to fly.

About the only time the Monk you talk about (or a Rogue using Cunning Action or a Tielfling "flying high" or any other "kite" build) actually gets to use that tactic is in truly open terrain; an open plain, deep desert or similar. As soon as any kind of cover comes into play, running around the fringes of a fight becomes increasingly less useful.

Another thing to mention about flight is that one member of a party having it is handy for them and they can be of greater use to the party, but unless everyone has it you're never going to realise the full potential of it because that one guy with flight can't carry everyone (unless he's got a Bag of Holding, I guess :smallwink:).

[Steampunkette]

I definitely agree that flight from level 1 is only rarely ever a problem if the DM is aware of it being an important part of a given character.

The game has, and will always, encourage you to tailor encounters to your party, rather than following a status quo encounter design setup. Since 3e at the latest it encourages you to watch what your spellcasters pick up so you can give their new spells an opportunity to shine. Same thing for the fighter or barbarian's feats (Cleave, anyone?)

Throw in flying enemies. Make sure your monsters have a few ranged attacks. Don't rely on pressure plates and pit traps as the end-all and be-all of your dungeon dangers. Don't be afraid of throwing in traps that specifically target flying characters built to destroy curious levitating casters inspecting something interesting on the ceiling of the grand cathedral of Orcus...

You've got tons of options as a DM to make a flying character's life just as challenging as a ground-pounder's without increasing the difficulty on the ground bound player. Use them.

And as to the major boost... eh? I mean it's nice and all, to go Feral tiefling for the dex/int boost, but it's not a major increase in power. And while there's no class in the game (currently) that relies on Cha/Int, the three Charisma centric classes all enjoy Tieflings pretty well in flavor and style. And whether you're a Warlock, Bard, or Sorceror having a little more intelligence under your belt can make knowledge checks easier, which is a side-role of those classes anyhow.

[MaxWilson]

Whilst technically true, it's also very dependent on the dimensions of the scenario; fighting in a 60ft corridor with a door at either end, for example, does that same Monk no favours and prohibits any meaningful use out of the ability to fly.

About the only time the Monk you talk about (or a Rogue using Cunning Action or a Tielfling "flying high" or any other "kite" build) actually gets to use that tactic is in truly open terrain; an open plain, deep desert or similar. As soon as any kind of cover comes into play, running around the fringes of a fight becomes increasingly less useful.

Another thing to mention about flight is that one member of a party having it is handy for them and they can be of greater use to the party, but unless everyone has it you're never going to realise the full potential of it because that one guy with flight can't carry everyone (unless he's got a Bag of Holding, I guess :smallwink:).

I agree that there are some cases where flight isn't useful. It's neither "always" useful nor "never", but something in between.

If one member of the party has flight (or similar superior-mobility options) and the others don't, encounters with melee creatures are trivially reducible to a previously solved problem: as soon as everybody is at least one round out of melee range, the combat is over, and the flying guy can handle the rest. DPR calculations cease to matter--the only thing that matters is "how fast can you get out of melee and how much damage do you take while doing it?"

You can also lead an enemy onto prepared terrain. E.g. have 2 of 4 party members set up behind prepared positions with partial cover and difficult terrain, while the flying guy and one other PC scout ahead doing a (stealthy) recon in force. If opposition with heavy ranged firepower is encountered, they retreat back onto the prepared positions and slaughter the enemy. Otherwise, the recon guys just kill (/disable) the baddies and move on.

[Tanarii]

The game has, and will always, encourage you to tailor encounters to your party, rather than following a status quo encounter design setup. Since 3e at the latest it encourages you to watch what your spellcasters pick up so you can give their new spells an opportunity to shine. Same thing for the fighter or barbarian's feats (Cleave, anyone?)If you're talking about D&D historically, no it hasn't. More the exact opposite. Tailored encounters to your party is a pretty new concept in the D&D timeline. AFAIK even 5e doesn't encourage you to tailor it to your party any further than by their levels, although I'm not done with the DMG yet.

[pwykersotz]

The game has, and will always, encourage you to tailor encounters to your party, rather than following a status quo encounter design setup.

Which is unfortunate in some regards, because three dimensional thinking is a large job. It's far easier to navigate the DM's world in three dimensions than it is to create the world in three dimensions, making flying without cost a good way to frustrate certain DM's. It's a YMMV thing.

[Steampunkette]

IF the flyer deals damage and IF the enemies have no ranged attacks and IF the rest of the party is willing to do nothing but flee for however many rounds and IF the terrain is open enough for full freedom of flight and IF the enemies are too dumb to find cover... then it becomes a serious problem. Otherwise, counter.

Bypassing a trap or finding an ingenious way into a stronghold are things the players should be proud of and DMs should more or less expect.

[JellyPooga]

Which is unfortunate in some regards, because three dimensional thinking is a large job. It's far easier to navigate the DM's world in three dimensions than it is to create the world in three dimensions, making flying without cost a good way to frustrate certain DM's. It's a YMMV thing.

I agree that YMMV, but 3D-thinking is a lot easier than it might appear. Everyone does it all the time anyway and personally, I find it an interesting exercise to consider how a place might be different in a world where flight is common (or more common); how architecture and defences might differ and how that would impact culture.

Even if you don't want to delve into these hypothetical considerations, it's not hard to realise that "ceiling = can't fly good". Simply putting the adventure in the archetypal "dungeon" puts a damper on any flight shenanigans and throwing in a couple of caverns where a flying PC can shine won't break the game and gives that player justification for his character build.

[Steampunkette]

Flight CAN be a problem if the DM forgets their player can fly. But even orcs and kobolds can wield bows. And while it might render an owlbear essentially incapable of harming a party member, so do some armor values.

[JackPhoenix]

Don't forget that flying means no stealth...there's nothing to hide behind in the sky (unless you high up to the clouds, and then you can't see what's going on on the ground anyway) and beating of huge leathery (or even feathered) wings is loud...

[JoeJ]

The next campaign I run will probably be Spelljammer, and I'm planning on letting the party start with a flying ship, so a flying PC isn't really a big deal. I will, however, rule that wings only let you fly inside an air envelope.

In general, I don't see it being much of a problem. A flying PC means a few more encounters with flying monsters, that's all.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm just glad I can make Nightcrawler more easily now. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[JoeJ]

Don't forget that flying means no stealth...there's nothing to hide behind in the sky (unless you high up to the clouds, and then you can't see what's going on on the ground anyway) and beating of huge leathery (or even feathered) wings is loud...

A flying character with Invisibility and expertise in Stealth can be extremely hard to spot. For up to one hour per casting, anyway. Good when scouting a short distance ahead, but not very useful for avoiding encounters while traveling all day.

[pwykersotz]

IF the flyer deals damage and IF the enemies have no ranged attacks and IF the rest of the party is willing to do nothing but flee for however many rounds and IF the terrain is open enough for full freedom of flight and IF the enemies are too dumb to find cover... then it becomes a serious problem. Otherwise, counter.

Bypassing a trap or finding an ingenious way into a stronghold are things the players should be proud of and DMs should more or less expect.

It's not ingenious if the DM didn't put in a counter because he wasn't designing that way. Agreed that flight can be countered. It doesn't make the situations where it becomes a gotcha any less frustrating.


I agree that YMMV, but 3D-thinking is a lot easier than it might appear. Everyone does it all the time anyway and personally, I find it an interesting exercise to consider how a place might be different in a world where flight is common (or more common); how architecture and defences might differ and how that would impact culture.

Even if you don't want to delve into these hypothetical considerations, it's not hard to realise that "ceiling = can't fly good". Simply putting the adventure in the archetypal "dungeon" puts a damper on any flight shenanigans and throwing in a couple of caverns where a flying PC can shine won't break the game and gives that player justification for his character build.

I respectfully disagree that it's easier than it appears, at least as a blanket case. It was a pain for me to learn, even if I did get good at it. Agreed that it can be a wonderfully fascinating thought exercise and fun to design. But it does take more work as well, which equals more time. And that's a premium not everyone has.

[MeeposFire]

Fighting actually isn't the big issue with flight. Most enemies can come up with interesting counters for it. The bigger problem is that many traditional adventuring problems become much easier with flight and it is harder to have non-contrived ways of dealing with it. Traditionally you may have to use a bunch of skills to cross a giant trap room but fliers can bypass them easily.

It isn't the end of the world but it is harder to deal with than combat I think. Enemies can change tactics and adapt. Traps and the environment generally cannot.

[Steampunkette]

Sure traps can change. On the fly. Until a player has found it.

Just declare that some of the traps have a different trigger. Make trip-wires that move across the room diagonally, creating a criss-cross of nearly invisible thin pieces of wire that break easily and set off the trap. Then add some verticality to it. Increase the target area from a 5 foot square peppered with darts to a 10ft column. If the players gripe about some of the traps attacking people who aren't on the floor, tell them they live in a world where flying creatures, and magics, aren't exactly rare. And where a potion of jumping would allow any thief-acrobat to leap over those pressure plates.

Adapt. Improvise. Expand.

D&D is 60% improv, because all the planning in the world breaks apart when player characters smash into your adventure plans. Flying or not.

That also applies to your counterargument, Pwykersotz. Add one. Have reinforcements come from another room of the dungeon. Have three of the orcish warriors rush into their tents to get longbows or throwing axes. Etc. Etc. Etc. Got an owlbear? Have a somewhat unrelated event occur at the same time. Maybe the flyer's motions disturb a nest of flying vipers or stirges that nest nearby, or just draws their attention as they hunt.

Heck, with the stirges you could retroactively lower the Owlbear's HP and say they've been dive-bombing it for blood before the group even arrived.

[MeeposFire]

Sure traps can change. On the fly. Until a player has found it.

Just declare that some of the traps have a different trigger. Make trip-wires that move across the room diagonally, creating a criss-cross of nearly invisible thin pieces of wire that break easily and set off the trap. Then add some verticality to it. Increase the target area from a 5 foot square peppered with darts to a 10ft column. If the players gripe about some of the traps attacking people who aren't on the floor, tell them they live in a world where flying creatures, and magics, aren't exactly rare. And where a potion of jumping would allow any thief-acrobat to leap over those pressure plates.

Adapt. Improvise. Expand.

D&D is 60% improv, because all the planning in the world breaks apart when player characters smash into your adventure plans. Flying or not.

Yea you can do stuff like that every once in a while but if all traps and obstacles did that I would have to say that the traps and obstacles feel contrived which is a huge negative and if you don't do that all the time you need to be ok with the fact that you may as well not have those obstacles there in the first place.

This feels a lot worse with traps and obstacles than creatures because creatures using magic or ranged weapons do not feel as unnatural as making specifically tailored traps for the character.

To me the better option to improvise as a DM is rather than continually making obstacles specifically tailored for that one PC, which will annoy the heck out of your player and make them feel like you are punishing them for their choice, I would avoid obstacles that flight helps as being obstacles that I expect the party to actually deal with. I would still give the party situations that flight will help to make the ability useful but I won't put much emphasis on them since I know they are easy for them to circumvent. I would put more emphasis on other areas such as puzzles where the players will need to think and act and the flight is not part of the equation.

[Steampunkette]

So here's a fun thing about traps...

Replace "Flying" with "Trapfinding" and reread the thread's discussion about traps. Or high dex saves. Or "Standing at the back of the party"

Yeah. Flying can minimize the danger of specific situations for one player character in the party.

But unless your adventure takes place entirely on a pit-trap riddled cliff-heavy series of ravines where the players are hunting animals and there are no flying creatures or armed humanoids whatsoever: It's not going to be as big a deal as you're making it out in your head.

The rest of the party is still going to be falling into pit traps, setting off tripwires, and climbing cliffs. They're going to be meleeing the animals. But everything flying is supposedly going to protect that character against applies equally to a ranged character (caster or otherwise) who stands back. Well. Maybe not cliff-climbing. But then there's Spiderclimb and Levitate at level 3.

So for 2 levels a flyer has an advantage over "Spellcaster who stands at the back of the party to avoid getting hit in combat" and that advantage is "Climbs up walls easily"

And their amazing flying ability is stumped by narrow hallways or low ceilings.

Not even low ceilings. a 12 foot vaulted ceiling is enough to ruin a flyer's day, and that's a high ceiling. Because a small or larger creature can attack adjacent 5 foot squares and thus the square above them by reaching up.

Though yeah: Designing encounters with an eye toward player ability is important to begin with. Improv when you fail that. Make sure they still have an a advantage, or the party gains one because of them, but keep a challenge.

So while the orcs are grabbing longbows to shoot the flyer they're not slapping the other players around. And open themselves up to attack by dropping shields to pull strings. And while the flyer can ignore the cliff and drop a rope, have that grant advantage to climb checks rather than completely circumvent the danger of the cliff.

[Addaran]

Yeah. Flying can minimize the danger of specific situations for one player character in the party.

The rest of the party is still going to be falling into pit traps, setting off tripwires, and climbing cliffs. They're going to be meleeing the animals. But everything flying is supposedly going to protect that character against applies equally to a ranged character (caster or otherwise) who stands back. Well. Maybe not cliff-climbing. But then there's Spiderclimb and Levitate at level 3.


This exactly!
When someone mentioned you can't rely on pressure plates cause there is a flyer, i though the contrary. After the tiefling just scouted the room while flying, the other party members probably won't think to be careful of traps and just walk in.

[Kane0]

I'm looking forward to playing a feral winged tiefling sun monk in an upcoming low magic campaign.

Gonna be sweet.

[Corran]

I'm looking forward to playing a feral winged tiefling sun monk in an upcoming low magic campaign.

Gonna be sweet.
You will want to be careful with whom you piss off. The fact that you can lose your wings (they can be cut off), along with the facct that there wont probably exist any available magic means to regenerate them, puts you in a very dangerous situation. So be extra careful...

[MaxWilson]

The fact that you can lose your wings (they can be cut off), along with the facct that there wont probably exist any available magic means to regenerate them, puts you in a very dangerous situation. So be extra careful...

The same is true even moreso of hands than wings.

[Corran]

The same is true even moreso of hands than wings.
True. But there is a difference. Take away the hands, and it's game over for the character. Take away the wings and the character is still playable. By which I mean that a DM might be less hesitant to have the wings cut off from a character, rather than his hands. I compare the wings of the tiefling to the usefulness a magic item can have for a character. Take the magic item away (in this case wings), and no more flight. And as uncle Xylon says, if it is something you can lose, you never got it in the first place...
The point I am trying to make, is that although it is a very cool feature, it lacks in term of power as you can lose it, unlike every other racial feature I can think of.

[JoeJ]

True. But there is a difference. Take away the hands, and it's game over for the character. Take away the wings and the character is still playable. By which I mean that a DM might be less hesitant to have the wings cut off from a character, rather than his hands. I compare the wings of the tiefling to the usefulness a magic item can have for a character. Take the magic item away (in this case wings), and no more flight. And as uncle Xylon says, if it is something you can lose, you never got it in the first place...
The point I am trying to make, is that although it is a very cool feature, it lacks in term of power as you can lose it, unlike every other racial feature I can think of.

You can take away darkvision by putting out the character's eyes. You can take away dwarven toughness with a festering wound that reduces the character's hit point maximum. You can take away a wood elf's fleet of foot by cutting off a foot or giving them a limp. And unlike cutting off a character's wings, all of the injuries I listed are possible using the variant Lingering Injuries rules in the DMG.

[Theodoxus]

Seems to me WotC dropped the ball on flight. Should have followed the magic route. 1st level, equivalent to feather fall. 3rd level, a glide like ability with limited, say, 20' of vertical levitate. 5th level, full flight limited to 1 minute per Con mod. 14th level, unlimited flight.

If anyone in my games wants to play an aarokora or feral tiefling with wings, that's how I'd homebrew my remedy. Still useful, but not breaking the level 1 game.

[SharkForce]

True. But there is a difference. Take away the hands, and it's game over for the character. Take away the wings and the character is still playable. By which I mean that a DM might be less hesitant to have the wings cut off from a character, rather than his hands. I compare the wings of the tiefling to the usefulness a magic item can have for a character. Take the magic item away (in this case wings), and no more flight. And as uncle Xylon says, if it is something you can lose, you never got it in the first place...
The point I am trying to make, is that although it is a very cool feature, it lacks in term of power as you can lose it, unlike every other racial feature I can think of.

your DM *could* do that.

you know, if they're not capable of handling things like a decent human being, by talking, rather than deliberately singling out the thing your character got in exchange for other things at chargen.

but frankly, if your DM is going to screw you over like that to "fix a problem", then you might want to start looking for a new DM. they may or may not be a good friend, but they are clearly not cut out for being a DM.

[JoeJ]

Seems to me WotC dropped the ball on flight. Should have followed the magic route. 1st level, equivalent to feather fall. 3rd level, a glide like ability with limited, say, 20' of vertical levitate. 5th level, full flight limited to 1 minute per Con mod. 14th level, unlimited flight.

If anyone in my games wants to play an aarokora or feral tiefling with wings, that's how I'd homebrew my remedy. Still useful, but not breaking the level 1 game.

Applied to Aarakocra, that would completely destroy my suspension of disbelief and make the race unplayable for me. How is that a PC has to be 14th level to get the basic racial ability that a CR 1/4 NPC has?

[Malifice]

Don't forget that flying means no stealth...there's nothing to hide behind in the sky (unless you high up to the clouds, and then you can't see what's going on on the ground anyway) and beating of huge leathery (or even feathered) wings is loud...

You can sneakily fly all the time. Birds of prey everywhere do it. Glide down on your prey from behind.

Re-hiding is next to impossible though.

[SharkForce]

Applied to Aarakocra, that would completely destroy my suspension of disbelief and make the race unplayable for me. How is that a PC has to be 14th level to get the basic racial ability that a CR 1/4 NPC has?

easy.

sorcerers. got. screwed.

just because an ability is given at level 14, doesn't mean it's a level 14 ability. for example, at level 14 a ranger gets to hide as a bonus action on their turn. at level 15, a hunter gets to choose between evasion, uncanny dodge, and a third ability.

meanwhile rogues get a better version of that level 14 ability at level 2, uncanny dodge at 5th, and evasion at 7th.

as another example, fighters at level 17 get a second use of their action surge, a level 2 ability. at level 7, champions get a lamer version of bard's jack of all trades, which bards get at level 2. at level 10, the champion gets a second fighting style, a level 1 or 2 ability.

berserker barbarians combine their level 3 and 14 abilities to get something roughly equivalent to polearm mastery that is heavily restricted in use, which is roughly a level 4 ability (first chance you get to take a feat).

just because a class gets an ability at a certain level, doesn't mean that ability is an ability only appropriate for someone of that level.

[Kane0]

Nah, the DM would never do that outside of story reasons. We're friends, and we've had Aaracokra PCs before.

I'm not doing it to spite the low magic concept, I'm actually totally on board with that. Also we're starting as adolescents so he's got time to account for it (i'll presumably be limited to gliding/feather falling until adulthood).

[Forum Explorer]

It's not ingenious if the DM didn't put in a counter because he wasn't designing that way. Agreed that flight can be countered. It doesn't make the situations where it becomes a gotcha any less frustrating.


How is it a gotcha? Okay, I can see missing a flight spell or something, but that's a resource and an expensive one since it takes up concentration (and you really don't want to fail it when your high in the sky). But when it's a racial ability? How do you forget that one of your players has giant wings on their back?

[JoeJ]

How is it a gotcha? Okay, I can see missing a flight spell or something, but that's a resource and an expensive one since it takes up concentration (and you really don't want to fail it when your high in the sky). But when it's a racial ability? How do you forget that one of your players has giant wings on their back?

If one of the players had wings, I imagine it would indeed be quite difficult to forget.

[JackPhoenix]

Aaracokra is is specificaly "ask your DM first" race. I don't know if it's the same with winged tiefling (don't have SCAG, but I suppose it is, being a variant rule in the first place), but if the DM allows it, he knows what he's getting into, or if he just allows it without thinking about it first, he'll deserve what he's about to get.

[Zalabim]

Speaking of the way magic handles it, flight for several hours a day is available (without needing attunement) from uncommon magic items. Flight is not a "high level only" ability, but a "with DM approval" ability.

[Steampunkette]

Thank you, folks! :D