Overpowered PC

[efreet27]

I took over a game from a previous DM who allowed one of our players to build a gargoyle werewolf barbarian with a magic phobia. Just take a moment to absorb that. The build is not permitted in Pathfinder, but he did it anyway. I have trouble creating adventures with this character in the mix because not only does the character break the bad guys, but the player is eternally allergic to rules. I really need help trying to deal with this guy. I will not simply eject him from the group. My solution is to kill his character and force him to start fresh with a legal build. Suggestions? Advice?

[Segev]

What level is the party?

There are three things you can do here:

1) Do nothing, and let the game continue as it is. This has the obvious problem of you feeling you cannot challenge the party with him in it.

2) Adapt your challenges so that his strengths are not auto-solutions. This is nontrivial, but usually doable. It may or may not be something you want to do, or feel able to do reasonably without it feeling contrived.

3) Make him change his character (or remove him from the game, which you said you will not do). If you go this route, don't just kill him off. Talk to him about it, explain why you can't let him keep this PC in the game, and let him propose how to remove this PC from the game and bring in a new one. This might involve killing this one off, or he might have a different idea. (Heck, if he's attached to the character's history in-game, maybe he'd be up for some sort of magical transformation into a less problematic race, keeping the Barbarian levels and character continuity.)

[Balmas]

Well, I think that the issue here could stem from several things. However, the biggest issue that I'm seeing is that one line about how the player is allergic to rules; if that's true, then the next character is likely to be more of the same lines, and there will be a bit of chafing.

Right now, your best approach is to take the player aside, and explain how his character is causing a disruption for the group at large and for you personally. (I do assume that is the case? How does the rest of the group feel about it?) If the player is any kind of reasonable, he'll understand, and the werewolf-gargoyle NPC-o-doom can be phased out, put on a bus, and a new character can come in with no hard feelings.

If, however, the player is unreasonable--and if he is, then I question why you don't want to kick him out--then as the DM you have several options. I'd recommend bringing it up with the group at large, to find out how people feel about the character. Be upfront about "I am sending harder fights specifically to kill this person, and the hard fights will stop when he dies." This gets a bit of social pressure on the person to be more reasonable, since everyone else understands that they're basically caught between the DM and this player.

[Meepo_]

You said he has a magic phobia. Make him face an enemy who is immune to all mundane types of damage. Or have an area that can only be reached by magical transportation be the next campaign setting. If an overpowered PC is stealing the spotlight, come up with a situation he can't solve and the other party members will seem more powerful by comparison.

[Quertus]

I took over a game from a previous DM who allowed one of our players to build a gargoyle werewolf barbarian with a magic phobia. Just take a moment to absorb that. The build is not permitted in Pathfinder, but he did it anyway. I have trouble creating adventures with this character in the mix because not only does the character break the bad guys, but the player is eternally allergic to rules. I really need help trying to deal with this guy. I will not simply eject him from the group. My solution is to kill his character and force him to start fresh with a legal build. Suggestions? Advice?

I would say kudos to the old DM for letting him build what he wanted, even though it wasn't supported by the rules, but who wants to run that mess? I'm guessing it's just blatant power gaming. If he isn't interested in changing his character, easy solution is to respond in kind - let everyone else run a gestalt, or otherwise boosted character. Heck, some of the other party members may have ideas not supported by the rules, custom classes, etc, that they would like to try out. You don't have to make his character the weakest, but certainly don't care about balance with his character when allowing the other players to have new options.

What do you mean by "eternally allergic to rules"? If you mean he isn't following the rules of the game (beyond this build), then that's a harder problem to work with.

[Sacrieur]

So he has to roll a will save whenever he sees magic?

That sounds pretty crippling.

[efreet27]

He tends to ignore rules that don't support his view of the character. For example, he has a DR to non-magical physical damage. He insists this means that when I covered him in whale oil and set him on fire, he takes no damage. He also refuses to record damage. He is currently poisoned with negatives to Con and Strength, but he refuses to acknowledge them. I know some of the other players are getting upset about it, but he is friends with my husband and I don't want to cause a rift.

[efreet27]

So he has to roll a will save whenever he sees magic?

That sounds pretty crippling.

I rather like that idea. I'm going to make him start doing that. He's made the phobia such a central part of his character I think he should have to do that. At least then the fights won't be so one-sided if he's off in a corner crying.

[efreet27]

What level is the party?

There are three things you can do here:

1) Do nothing, and let the game continue as it is. This has the obvious problem of you feeling you cannot challenge the party with him in it.

2) Adapt your challenges so that his strengths are not auto-solutions. This is nontrivial, but usually doable. It may or may not be something you want to do, or feel able to do reasonably without it feeling contrived.

3) Make him change his character (or remove him from the game, which you said you will not do). If you go this route, don't just kill him off. Talk to him about it, explain why you can't let him keep this PC in the game, and let him propose how to remove this PC from the game and bring in a new one. This might involve killing this one off, or he might have a different idea. (Heck, if he's attached to the character's history in-game, maybe he'd be up for some sort of magical transformation into a less problematic race, keeping the Barbarian levels and character continuity.)

The party is level 6

[upho]

I think Segev's list suggested above is pretty much spot-on, but missed one important alternative:

4) Change his build into a more balanced custom class/archetype/race combo, keeping the flavor of the original build.

This option probably demands almost as much work and system mastery from you as changing encounters into being harder for the problematic PC and easier for the rest of the party. But it does have the distinct advantages of allowing you a much greater variety in terms of building the opposition the party faces, not limiting you to stuff the problematic PC cannot simply steamroll, while also allowing the player to keep the flavor of his PC largely intact.

If you and the player are interested in exploring this option, I suggest you first talk to him ask the following two questions:

Are there any particular flavor(s), or combinations of flavors, your current PC has that you think stand out as the most compelling/fun/important?
Are there any particular mechanic(s), or combinations of mechanics, your current PC has that you think stand out as the most compelling/fun/important?

Second, have a look at the PC builds of the rest of the party and try to determine for example:

How strong are they on average?
How much do they differ in terms of general power level between the strongest and the weakest (not including the problematic PC)?
What combat roles to they cover (ranged/melee/control/damage/defender/buff/de-buff/etc.)?
Which combat role(s) could the problematic PC assume without stepping on the other PCs' toes?
How smart do the other players play their character's in mechanic-related game situations, in comparison to the problematic PC? Are they mostly tactical geniuses, on about the same level, or are they less tactically talented/interested in comparison to the player with the problematic PC?
Are the answers to the above likely to change considerably as the PCs gain more levels (which is normally the case, especially if the party contains full casters)?

From the small amount of information you've posted, it seems to me the problematic PC is a rather classic melee striker/damage-dealer barb, boosted by racial and template stat boosts and special abilities like flight. If I'm correct, it should be a pretty easy task to balance the build without losing flavor, unless the problem solves itself within a few levels as especially any full caster PC's in the party become stronger and much more versatile. If the party contains for example a single-classed fighter, monk or rogue (the original non-unchained versions), you may definitely have a problem though. But that problem lies more in the fact that those classes are underpowered in comparison to most other Paizo classes, not that the problematic PC is overpowered.

If you could post his build, his replies to the first two questions above, and some more details about the rest of the party and the game in general (current level, expected max level, adventure path (if using a published one), setting etc), I think I can help you balance his build in a way that you, the player and the rest of your group will find acceptable and fun.

[Honest Tiefling]

He's friends with your husband? So...You're only tolerating him for hubby. Maybe this is unreasonable, but if it affects your husband so much and he's buds with the guy...Maybe ask your husband to talk to him about obeying the rules. He knows the guy better then you do, presumably.

I'd also start tracking his HP...Well, his everything. I think a rule that everytime you cheat you get negative EXP is tempting, but probably too trollish.

[upho]

He tends to ignore rules that don't support his view of the character. For example, he has a DR to non-magical physical damage. He insists this means that when I covered him in whale oil and set him on fire, he takes no damage. He also refuses to record damage. He is currently poisoned with negatives to Con and Strength, but he refuses to acknowledge them. I know some of the other players are getting upset about it, but he is friends with my husband and I don't want to cause a rift.DR does NOT protect against energy damage of any kind. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Damage-Reduction-Ex-or-Su-) Full stop.


The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.(My emphasis.) If he claims his DR protects against energy damage, he insists on a house rule you, as a DM, haven't endorsed.

I suggest you or your hubby talks to the player and tell him that he has to follow the rules of the game just as everyone else. If he refuses to play by the rules, the problem doesn't lie with the build but with the player actually saying he doesn't want to play PF, but some weird egomaniacal homebrew version of the game only he will find amusing.

[ericgrau]

I'd keep it simple and have him make a new character. Check it over, fix anything that needs fixing, tell him the DM has the last word and you need it to keep the game from stalling, move on.

The old character became an NPC working on other things in the plot, moved far away and is not plot irrelevant, retired or died or whatever. Handle this out of game though, not actually during the gaming session.

I agree on not kicking him from the group except as a last resort. If he fights you try to explain to him that you can't stall the game for such and that you need to be allowed to take charge for the game to run smoothly. If he still refuses you need to warn him that you may not be able to allow him in the group if he does this, then finally if he stands his ground then you must actually get rid of him rather than letting this drag out or giving empty threats.

[nedz]

I took over a game from a previous DM ...
This is always tricky, you would have been better to start your own game.
Too late now I guess.

I have trouble creating adventures with this character in the mix
So you have an unbalanced party. This is a very difficult problem, but may resolve itself without effort.

What level is the party ?
Melle builds are often front loaded, i.e. this problem may fix itself with more levels.

Has the character applied LA, etc., correctly ?
He may actually be of a higher ECL anyway.

but the player is eternally allergic to rules.
erm, this is a huge red flag. You may not be able to DM with him in the game.

My solution is to kill his character and force him to start fresh with a legal build. Suggestions? Advice?
This is not a good solution unless you do it very well since he will always hold it against you.

If you know the player really well then you might be able to craft a situation where he does this to himself, or another PC does this to him 'accidentally' — don't get caught doing this or you may as well have used Rule 0 anyway.

Any plot-wise method may reek of Rule 0 too.

[Sacrieur]

I rather like that idea. I'm going to make him start doing that. He's made the phobia such a central part of his character I think he should have to do that. At least then the fights won't be so one-sided if he's off in a corner crying.

It's pretty easy.

DC 20 = Shaken
DC 10 = Panicked

---

No matter how high he boosts his will save, 5% of the time he's going to be fleeing from combat. I'm sure his crippling fear of magic was the deal made for him to keep his crazy build. He can't just skirt around that negative bit.

This also means he can't use or wear anything magic if he knows it's magical.

[Selion]

I'm trying without success to visualize a gargoyle shape-shifting in a werewolf... That's ugly.
BTW, when you say the build is not legit you mean it doesn't follow the rules at all or it just strains a little them? You could force your player to remake his character keeping the (ugly) concept, if he likes it. So you have a gargoyle with a template and class level. Base garg is cr4, lycantrope is cr +1 and he at level 6 can be first level barbarian. I would say that it could be taken in account a further +1 cr to represent pc gear given to a monster, but I don't think it is necessary in the long run. The other players will keep up with him eventually , class levels are usually better than monster levels.
Meanwhile try to figure some encounters that put the garg in a bad spot, maybe using his phobia against him. (by the way, I was thinking, he knows he has Dr 10/magic, shouldn't he be afraid of anything could wound him? )

[Florian]

Well, that combination is counted as the equivalent to a lvl 11 character in PF, so it definetelly is not legit by regular rules and doesn't fit in a lvl6 party at all.

And that's the thing I would point out to the player and offer him to change character, helping him along character creation if he's so allergic to rules.

[Dr TPK]

I once tried this:
Just give him all that he wants. The fights are there just for him to kill all the enemies easily. Spend very, very little time planning your combat. Focus the game on everything else. The fact that the character is OP just means combat, right? Make the game like you want, except for the combat part. The combat is just a joke, and pretty irrelevant in your game.

An example:
A father wants the PCs to find his missing daughter. The daughter left a message saying that she has escaped with her half-orc lover to the orc lands. You just throw some random monsters from MM, who cares right, they all die anyway? Put some orcs too, it doesn't matter. Then they meet the daughter, but the daughter doesn't want to go. If the PCs kill her boyfriend, she will get mad too and attack the PCs (she's a crazed commoner 1). If they end up killing everyone, you could say that there's an alignment shift and no evil PCs are allowed in your game. The end.

[TheIronGolem]

I really need help trying to deal with this guy. I will not simply eject him from the group.

Please reconsider that stance. Booting a player should always be a last resort, and I'm not saying you should do it in this case. But you're shooting yourself in the foot by not at least making it an option. If you're to have any hope of this player learning to respect your rulings as a DM, he has to know that doing so is a condition for him being able to play in your game. Otherwise, there's nothing he can't get away with, and no reason for him to change.

[Arbane]

He tends to ignore rules that don't support his view of the character. For example, he has a DR to non-magical physical damage. He insists this means that when I covered him in whale oil and set him on fire, he takes no damage. He also refuses to record damage. He is currently poisoned with negatives to Con and Strength, but he refuses to acknowledge them. I know some of the other players are getting upset about it, but he is friends with my husband and I don't want to cause a rift.

If he's not going to play the game, I don't see any reason why you should have him at the table. Tell your husband either he can play by the rules, or they can go bowling or something.

[Callin]

Change him over to a Witchwolf that has a base nonfunctional form of a Gargoyle with some Barbarian levels. Same character concept, legal, and normal powerlevel.

[Der_DWSage]

So...if he's already not playing by the rules, what are the odds that he'll agree to a legal rebuild like many are suggesting? If he's flat-out not even recording Strength and Con damage, the odds seem low. He needs to start playing by the rules before any functional changes can occur. Even if you put in the phobia to magic, it seems like he'll just ignore it half the time anyway, because it doesn't fit his 'concept.'

So...okay, let's put down a few steps of severity here. This seems like what you need to do.

1)Talk to the player. This is the obvious step-point out that the game isn't all about him, it's about the group, and everyone kind of needs to abide by the same rules.

2)Set the rules. Explain what DR X/- means, and point out that if he's not going to record certain types of damage, you'll do it for him. Other things of that type go in here as well. If he gets butthurt about it, point out that you can have monsters 'ignore rules' too, and the GM always wins that fight.

3)If the above two steps don't work, stop focusing on him. Passive aggressive as all get-out, but it should make the point clear-legitimate cheaters don't get table time. He wants to go all-out on a monster? Skip his initiative. He can rejoin initiative when he agrees to start playing by the rules. He can be a cinderblock that the party hides behind until then. He wants to do something when he gets back to town? Great! You allow him to do so, then focus on the rest of the party. He got set on fire? Ignore him. Don't even ask for the damage. Make him ask for the damage.

This is an extreme step, and should only be taken if the first two aren't working. I can't stress this enough, and I would prefer kicking someone out of the group before I take it-but you're not taking that option.

3a)Alternatively, see if the group would prefer a less rules-heavy system. D&D is fun, but perhaps you should try FATE or something similar that would legitimately let him have his Werewolf Vampire Gargoyle Barbarian Bishounen Ninja concept, while not actually unbalancing the group. Maybe that would help him get back on track, and frustrate you significantly less. (I'd actually recommend FATE, as it's a fun system and seems entirely up his alley.)

[nedz]

He tends to ignore rules that don't support his view of the character. For example, he has a DR to non-magical physical damage. He insists this means that when I covered him in whale oil and set him on fire, he takes no damage. He also refuses to record damage. He is currently poisoned with negatives to Con and Strength, but he refuses to acknowledge them. I know some of the other players are getting upset about it, but he is friends with my husband and I don't want to cause a rift.
This is cheating.

You could start recording his damage for him — which is a pain because DMs have enough to do — and then tell him when he falls over.

The party is level 6


Well, that combination is counted as the equivalent to a lvl 11 character in PF, so it definitely is not legit by regular rules and doesn't fit in a lvl6 party at all.
Normally when someone is 4 levels ahead everyone else may as well just be carrying the bags.

You could try using peer pressure and get the rest of the group to complain. That might work.

[FatR]

I took over a game from a previous DM who allowed one of our players to build a gargoyle werewolf barbarian with a magic phobia. Just take a moment to absorb that.

So, he's playing a gimp.


The build is not permitted in Pathfinder, but he did it anyway. I have trouble creating adventures with this character in the mix because not only does the character break the bad guys,

Pathfinder rules for monster characters admittedly do usually make them more powerful than normal characters, but he's still only a melee brute, albeit a flying one. There are plenty of stock monsters in MMs that don't care about the damage reduction.


but the player is eternally allergic to rules.

Now that is a problem.


I really need help trying to deal with this guy. I will not simply eject him from the group. My solution is to kill his character and force him to start fresh with a legal build. Suggestions? Advice?

If a player is allergic to rules there is no solution other than ejecting him from the group or just dealing with it and letting him have fun his way. You are not going to change him as a person by killing his characters. And asking them to make a new character won't work. If you want to keep him (seeing your desriptions of him throughout the thread, I certainly woudn't want to keep a player like this), for one reason or another, let him play a character he likes.

And in any case, killing characters because you don't like a player's approach is bad GMing. Instead of being passive-aggressive and trying to correct a player's behavior by in-game punishments, which is not going to work anyway, it is always better to straight up say what problems you have.

[Edenbeast]

If you took over the game for good, then it's your responsibility, you are gamemaster, you should make sure the players adhere to the rules. I would ask the player to build a nw character. If he doesn't understand the rules, you can offer the go and sit and do this together.
Concering the "allergic to rules," tell him to grow up, and learn to play games.

[Psyren]

"Allergic to rules" and Pathfinder simply do not mix, it's a rules-heavy game. Moreover, this is an out-of-game problem which means it should have an out-of-game solution. Sit the guy down (preferably with your husband), explain the way you run things/the way the game is designed, and give him the choice to take it, leave it, or compromise.

A gargoyle werewolf barbarian is not actually imbalanced in and of itself - so long as the rest of the party is a high enough level to deal with the things you would need to challenge such a character it can work well. But if you're planning to start from low levels, you should either come up with a way to grant some of his abilities over time or else use the race builder to design a new race that feels like those two things without having all of their powers.

[Yahzi]

Just give him all that he wants.
Excellent advice.

Here's another idea: after a battle you roll for treasure, and say, "Oops..." Turns you rolled a double-super-secret triple crit on the loot table! +10 Artifact Weapons for everyone!

Oh wait... you have a magic phobia? OK, well, here's a huge pile of gold instead.

Then you just remake all your encounters to be level 12 for your level 6 super-heroes. A little bit rocket-taggy, sure, but the other players might appreciate being as uber-powered as the gargoyle.

The whole "does not write down damage" thing is a different issue. For that you need to change the game mechanics. For instance, tell them you're getting confused with who has what damage, so from now on everybody has HP dice in front of them and has to remove them as they get hit or add them back as the get healed. Get one of the other players to say, "Neat! As your dice pool shrinks it will be like we can see you getting bloodied or wounded."

EDIT: Don't ever kill a character for a player's misbehavior. That is a violation of the basic contract of role-playing. You're not going to hold the player responsible for being a murder-hobo,, so by the inverse you can't hold the character responsible for a cheating player. Characters must only ever be punished (or rewarded) in-game for in-game reasons.

(I would never do these things; I would just boot him if he didn't agree to the rules. But I get that is not an option in this case.)

[paranoidbox]

I tend to not have that many fighting situations anyway, but generally what I do is I generate a world of opposing factions, have the characters run into them, maybe form alliances, throw in a murder mystery of sorts, and a great but dangerous artifact that several dangerous factions want... then have the players discuss the ramifications of each and every choice they get to make. It's a lot of fun for everybody... except the "roll-player". So that's one thing you could do? It's somewhat in line with the "let him have his cake and eat it, too, but really everyone is having pie" suggestions that some people have made here.

Oh, also, one thing that these types of players absolutely hate is throwing in an NPC that cannot be defeated through combat. This should be a major recurring NPC who is just so strong and menacing that everyone just backs off when he (or she) comes into frame. Preferably this should also be someone who doesn't really mean the PC's harm (because otherwise he would just slaughter them), but he has his own thing going and might occasionally oppose the PC's general goals. And the only way to counter said NPC is through non-combat situations. Let's see a Vampire Werewolf Pirate Barbarian deal with that.

[Edenbeast]

I wouldn't resort to in-game solutions when the issue is caused by an out-game "misunderstanding". My bad if my other post sounded a bit harsh, I was in hurry and had to cut it short.

Another option, but possibly a bit more complicated is to calculate the actual level. Although I normally play Pathfiner, I'm not that familiar with the powerful races rules. I do know the 3.5 rules for level adjustment. Gargoyle has +5. Lycanthrope, depending on whether he's an afflicted or natural werewolf, has either +2 or +3 respectively. From your post it's unclear whether the previous GM has already compensated for that or not. If not, then the other solution you have is to give the other players either 7 or 8 levels. This does mean you have to adapt the campaign to the new level, which may not be the best option.

Option number four, and maybe the best depending on how confident you are in taking over the previous GM's campaign, is to start your own story and have all the players build new characters. Make clear to them how you run your games, what they can expect from you, what you expect from them. Unless it's a premade campaign or adventure path.. In that case it's either:
1. Talk to player to have him revise his character or build a new one, possibly with your help.
2. Kick him out if he's unwilling to respect the rules, in which case first talk to the other players. (In the past we had a player ruining the atmosphere, and we had a vote on it. The result was: player had to leave. So we told him. Or actually our GM wrote a polite email explaining the situation and that the player was not expected show up anymore.)
3. Make everyone equal in level and continue with adjusted campaign.

I understand this is difficult, because one way or the other you will have to confront the player in question, but it's important for both fairness and group dynamics, and most of all having a fun session. Everyone is supposed enjoy the experience, this includes you as GM. You post here because you don't feel satisfied with the current situation, even before starting. That means you're not going to enjoy it without a proper solution. Since you just took over, this is the best moment to address the issue.

[Segev]

Trying to get a picture of his behavior, here.

You say he doesn't acknowledge the damage he's taken (particularly to stats). Is this a belligerent, in-your-face, "I don't acknowledge I took that damage, so I won't act like I did?" or is it a sneaky, "Oops, I forgot to record that, so these numbers I'm claiming I have don't take that into account?"


Both can be handled by you keeping track of his damaged stats, yourself, and applying the penalties on your side of the screen before telling him if he succeeded or failed. The latter kind can also be corrected by "reminding" him of them. "Remember that you have a -2 to that roll due to your strength damage, so that's really only (N-2)," where N is the number he claimed.

The former... just narrate all of his actions failing, no matter what he claims to have rolled, on the grounds that you don't acknowledge he rolled higher than a 0, total, until he acknowledges his stat damage. Tell him this outright; he doesn't get to declare he is ignoring the rules. He may as well be claiming his stats were higher than they are. You wouldn't let him do that, so don't let him do this.

[Sacrieur]

Excellent advice.

Here's another idea: after a battle you roll for treasure, and say, "Oops..." Turns you rolled a double-super-secret triple crit on the loot table! +10 Artifact Weapons for everyone!

Oh wait... you have a magic phobia? OK, well, here's a huge pile of gold instead.

Then you just remake all your encounters to be level 12 for your level 6 super-heroes. A little bit rocket-taggy, sure, but the other players might appreciate being as uber-powered as the gargoyle.

The whole "does not write down damage" thing is a different issue. For that you need to change the game mechanics. For instance, tell them you're getting confused with who has what damage, so from now on everybody has HP dice in front of them and has to remove them as they get hit or add them back as the get healed. Get one of the other players to say, "Neat! As your dice pool shrinks it will be like we can see you getting bloodied or wounded."

EDIT: Don't ever kill a character for a player's misbehavior. That is a violation of the basic contract of role-playing. You're not going to hold the player responsible for being a murder-hobo,, so by the inverse you can't hold the character responsible for a cheating player. Characters must only ever be punished (or rewarded) in-game for in-game reasons.

(I would never do these things; I would just boot him if he didn't agree to the rules. But I get that is not an option in this case.)

So much this I agree with.

[Quertus]

Well, that combination is counted as the equivalent to a lvl 11 character in PF, so it definetelly is not legit by regular rules and doesn't fit in a lvl6 party at all.

And that's the thing I would point out to the player and offer him to change character, helping him along character creation if he's so allergic to rules.

He is level 11? Or 12, if he has 1 level of barbarian? Does PF have an equivalent to, "since he is playing 6 levels above the party, he suffers a 6-point penalty to all attack/save/skill rolls etc"? If so, implement that, and he's roughly balanced, right? And, for the next 6 levels, instead of advancing, he buys off these penalties. Problem solved?


He tends to ignore rules that don't support his view of the character. For example, he has a DR to non-magical physical damage. He insists this means that when I covered him in whale oil and set him on fire, he takes no damage. He also refuses to record damage. He is currently poisoned with negatives to Con and Strength, but he refuses to acknowledge them. I know some of the other players are getting upset about it, but he is friends with my husband and I don't want to cause a rift.

If he can't play by the rules, he doesn't get to play the game.

Or, if you want a fun atmosphere, and aren't obsessively attached to the rules, just every time he ignores a rule, every other player gets to pick an "I ignore the rules" power. Hand out chits to the other players, perhaps including ret-con chits for his previous actions. Could be a fun game (or at least a more fun way of calling him on his behavior).

Or give the monsters chits to ignore him every time he ignores a rule. For example, all monsters ignore all damage from him for a duration equal to the amount of time he ignored his Str and Con penalties (whether that time is measured in IC hours, OOC hours, number of levels, number of encounters, whatever). Force him to come up with creative ways (aid another, intimidate, whatever) to contribute to the game for a while as the reality he rejected rejects him for a change. Perhaps even have him be visited by some agent of reality (think World of Darkness "paradox spirit") to explain the situation to his character at the onset of his problems.

Having your husband / the group talk to him is probably the better approach, but if all else fails...

Also, has anyone else in the party been poisoned and set on fire? Or are you singling out his character for punishment? If you are, stop. You want to make things fun for the whole party, not alienate the "problem" player.

[efreet27]

I wanted to thank everyone for some great advice. I'm going to get with my husband about talking to him and tweak some of the game mechanics. I think if I make the game less interesting for him, he will just give up on the character or the group. Besides, fights aren't the be all and end all of Pathfinder. There is a story and a plot and he ignores that because his character is such a great fighter.

[nedz]

I wanted to thank everyone for some great advice. I'm going to get with my husband about talking to him and tweak some of the game mechanics. I think if I make the game less interesting for him, he will just give up on the character or the group. Besides, fights aren't the be all and end all of Pathfinder. There is a story and a plot and he ignores that because his character is such a great fighter.

Right, a Hack-n-Slash Munchkin: you could run a role-play heavy scenario, but be prepared for your NPCs to just suddenly die without reason or warning (as long as you have a plan for this you will be fine).

[Edenbeast]

I wanted to thank everyone for some great advice. I'm going to get with my husband about talking to him and tweak some of the game mechanics. I think if I make the game less interesting for him, he will just give up on the character or the group. Besides, fights aren't the be all and end all of Pathfinder. There is a story and a plot and he ignores that because his character is such a great fighter.

Not a great solution.. You run the risk of everyone being bored by the game. This may easily take a few to twenty sessions before people realize they're not having a good time and their game night is actually a waste of their time. Then everyone decides to find excuses not to show up.
You need to handle the problem out-game. If your goal is for him to "give up on the character or the group," then go for that directly, i.e. tell him to make a new "proper" character, or leave the group, and be done with it and enjoy your game.

[TheIronGolem]

I wanted to thank everyone for some great advice. I'm going to get with my husband about talking to him and tweak some of the game mechanics. I think if I make the game less interesting for him, he will just give up on the character or the group. Besides, fights aren't the be all and end all of Pathfinder. There is a story and a plot and he ignores that because his character is such a great fighter.

No! Danger, Will Robinson!

He's not ignoring the story and plot because his character is powerful in combat. He's ignoring it because he doesn't care about it, and he won't suddenly start caring even if you make him play a 1st-level commoner with no arms.

"Make the game worse for this player" is a passive-aggressive approach that usually backfires, and a lousy way to treat players even if it works. The best possible outcome of that is that your game loses a bad player but gains a bad DM.

You need to bring up the problem with this player. Directly. Outside of the game. Tell him that his character isn't legal by your rules, that you aren't going to let him ignore your rules, and that he can't play if he's going to keep doing so.

[Florian]

He is level 11? Or 12, if he has 1 level of barbarian? Does PF have an equivalent to, "since he is playing 6 levels above the party, he suffers a 6-point penalty to all attack/save/skill rolls etc"? If so, implement that, and he's roughly balanced, right? And, for the next 6 levels, instead of advancing, he buys off these penalties. Problem solved?

You mean like LA and buying it of? PF doean't use that at all. Instead, it uses the Average Party Level (APL) for calculating base CR and going from that. So in this case, it'd be 3x 6 plus 1x 12 (Good catch, btw) /4, leding to having a CR8 encounter being the baseline.

[Arbane]

No! Danger, Will Robinson!

He's not ignoring the story and plot because his character is powerful in combat. He's ignoring it because he doesn't care about it, and he won't suddenly start caring even if you make him play a 1st-level commoner with no arms.

"Make the game worse for this player" is a passive-aggressive approach that usually backfires, and a lousy way to treat players even if it works. The best possible outcome of that is that your game loses a bad player but gains a bad DM.

You need to bring up the problem with this player. Directly. Outside of the game. Tell him that his character isn't legal by your rules, that you aren't going to let him ignore your rules, and that he can't play if he's going to keep doing so.

You see this advice here? This is good advice.
Redesigning the game around one jerk is a waste of your valuable brainpower and everyone's time.

[paranoidbox]

You see this advice here? This is good advice.
Redesigning the game around one jerk is a waste of your valuable brainpower and everyone's time.

Not sure why a redesign of how their game functions automatically means the game is going to be bad. This might instead turn into a baller campaign with everyone but the munchkin having a blast.

[Psyren]

No! Danger, Will Robinson!

He's not ignoring the story and plot because his character is powerful in combat. He's ignoring it because he doesn't care about it, and he won't suddenly start caring even if you make him play a 1st-level commoner with no arms.

"Make the game worse for this player" is a passive-aggressive approach that usually backfires, and a lousy way to treat players even if it works. The best possible outcome of that is that your game loses a bad player but gains a bad DM.

You need to bring up the problem with this player. Directly. Outside of the game. Tell him that his character isn't legal by your rules, that you aren't going to let him ignore your rules, and that he can't play if he's going to keep doing so.


You see this advice here? This is good advice.
Redesigning the game around one jerk is a waste of your valuable brainpower and everyone's time.

Adding my support behind these (and said as much in my first reply.)

[Florian]

Not sure why a redesign of how their game functions automatically means the game is going to be bad. This might instead turn into a baller campaign with everyone but the munchkin having a blast.

*sigh*

I'm loath to say it, but that's how games like V:tM work.

[dascarletm]

Not sure why a redesign of how their game functions automatically means the game is going to be bad. This might instead turn into a baller campaign with everyone but the munchkin having a blast.

It very well may be baller, but that doesn't make what the DM is doing any less passive-aggressive and frankly... what is a non-vulgar way to put this... jerkish.

[bean illus]

Set him up.

Keep a log on behind your screen and track each round/action. When he reaches 0 make sure he carries rider damage so he's sure to -10.

When he rolls a new pc do it again unless he tracks damage/etc.

If he complains call him a baby and tell him grow up.

OR... level all other players early (7) and just advance them to (8) by rule 0. Hand out some "free" items/gold/xp for 3 sessions (9).
Meanwhile curse him with a negative level (11).

Problem solved?

[Quertus]

You mean like LA and buying it of? PF doean't use that at all. Instead, it uses the Average Party Level (APL) for calculating base CR and going from that. So in this case, it'd be 3x 6 plus 1x 12 (Good catch, btw) /4, leding to having a CR8 encounter being the baseline.

:smallsmile:

Apparently, there was a setting-specific 3.x rule (In forgotten realms maybe? I saw someone post about it on a thread I can't find) where, if someone was X levels ahead of the party (say, due to wanting to run a character with high racial HD + level adjustment), you could balance them by applying the equivalent of X negative levels, giving them -X to all attacks/skills/saves/etc. I remember it because I made an almost identical house-rule back before Savage Species gave level breakdowns for (some) monsters.

The character counts as being their new, modified level. When the character would gain a level, they instead remove one of these negative levels. So that, when the party is at the level the monster PC would be as a starting character, they no longer suffer any penalties, and advance as normal from there.

Assuming the party advances at the same rate, at level 6, the level 12 character in question would have a -6 penalty; when the party hits level 7, that penalty drops to -5; -4 at 8th, etc, until, at 12th level, the character no longer has a penalty, and is appropriately the 12th-level character it was built as all along.

I was just hoping Pathfinder already had an equivalent rule, so the DM wouldn't have to create a house rule to deal with this situation.

[nedz]

:smallsmile:

Apparently, there was a setting-specific 3.x rule (In forgotten realms maybe? I saw someone post about it on a thread I can't find) where, if someone was X levels ahead of the party (say, due to wanting to run a character with high racial HD + level adjustment), you could balance them by applying the equivalent of X negative levels, giving them -X to all attacks/skills/saves/etc. I remember it because I made an almost identical house-rule back before Savage Species gave level breakdowns for (some) monsters.

The character counts as being their new, modified level. When the character would gain a level, they instead remove one of these negative levels. So that, when the party is at the level the monster PC would be as a starting character, they no longer suffer any penalties, and advance as normal from there.

Assuming the party advances at the same rate, at level 6, the level 12 character in question would have a -6 penalty; when the party hits level 7, that penalty drops to -5; -4 at 8th, etc, until, at 12th level, the character no longer has a penalty, and is appropriately the 12th-level character it was built as all along.

I was just hoping Pathfinder already had an equivalent rule, so the DM wouldn't have to create a house rule to deal with this situation.

That's a good idea, but it's not going to work if the player is just going to ignore the negative levels.:smallsigh:

[paranoidbox]

It very well may be baller, but that doesn't make what the DM is doing any less passive-aggressive and frankly... what is a non-vulgar way to put this... jerkish.

It's the least jerkish way of dealing with a jerk ;-p as opposed to killing off his character in a "rocks fall, you die"-style and certainly as opposed to setting him up. I'm not saying that you complete freeze out the PC, I'm saying restructure the game and the way of playing so that his antics have less of (or even no) impact. And I presume that's what the DM was suggesting but I can't speak for her, so who knows.

Although I do like the idea of reality pushing back as someone here earlier suggested.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I wouldn't worry much on the build.

Like others addressed it's monster levels, a Martial character and he hates magic items.
Casters or simply Class Level players with magic gear will easily surpass that soon enough.
Plus, it is something the former DM allowed, and you joined as the new one you also agreed to the characters.
It's just a bad way to start things to take over a campaign and then demand people re-make characters.

All of this stuff on ignoring the rules however?
Now that's a problem.

Accidently mis-reading the rules is one thing. I once did that with TWF where I applied 1-1/2 STR to all attacks.
Took a few months before me or the DM realized that's not how it worked (we were both new).

Purposely ignoring the rules because it doesn't fit your 'concept' though is just childish.
This is something you need to pull him aside and talk to him about, explain the rules are there for a reason and like everyone else he need's to follow them.
Doing so is basically an unwritten agreement on joining these groups (exception being if the group or DM decided to wave _____ rule *looks at multi-class XP penalty*).
He needs to recognize that if he is to play, he actually needs to play.

So I'd say give him that warning, and if he refuses to listen then he's kicking himself out of the group, you're just the one having enforce the rules at the DM.

However, avoid passive aggressive tactics.
No aiming to kill him through hard encounters and telling the players "This will happen till he dies".
No altering the system for the sole purpose of making him annoyed.

All this does is breed anger, bitter feelings and drama.
You send the group against one another, and even in cases where it's just one problem player you've just created a bad environment to pull yourself out of once said player is gone.
I mean yes, this will get rid of that player, by proxy of getting rid of the entire campaign.

[efreet27]

I wouldn't worry much on the build.

Like others addressed it's monster levels, a Martial character and he hates magic items.
Casters or simply Class Level players with magic gear will easily surpass that soon enough.
Plus, it is something the former DM allowed, and you joined as the new one you also agreed to the characters.
It's just a bad way to start things to take over a campaign and then demand people re-make characters.

All of this stuff on ignoring the rules however?
Now that's a problem.

Accidently mis-reading the rules is one thing. I once did that with TWF where I applied 1-1/2 STR to all attacks.
Took a few months before me or the DM realized that's not how it worked (we were both new).

Purposely ignoring the rules because it doesn't fit your 'concept' though is just childish.
This is something you need to pull him aside and talk to him about, explain the rules are there for a reason and like everyone else he need's to follow them.
Doing so is basically an unwritten agreement on joining these groups (exception being if the group or DM decided to wave _____ rule *looks at multi-class XP penalty*).
He needs to recognize that if he is to play, he actually needs to play.

So I'd say give him that warning, and if he refuses to listen then he's kicking himself out of the group, you're just the one having enforce the rules at the DM.

However, avoid passive aggressive tactics.
No aiming to kill him through hard encounters and telling the players "This will happen till he dies".
No altering the system for the sole purpose of making him annoyed.

All this does is breed anger, bitter feelings and drama.
You send the group against one another, and even in cases where it's just one problem player you've just created a bad environment to pull yourself out of once said player is gone.
I mean yes, this will get rid of that player, by proxy of getting rid of the entire campaign.

I think "childish" is the right word. There are game mechanics that I already have in place that he dislikes because it does not fit with his "vision" of his character. He cannot, for example, go to an inn and order a drink from a human bartender because he's a gargoyle. Humans tend to be on the menu for him. He's focused on the combat monster aspect of his character without taking anything else into account.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I think "childish" is the right word. There are game mechanics that I already have in place that he dislikes because it does not fit with his "vision" of his character. He cannot, for example, go to an inn and order a drink from a human bartender because he's a gargoyle. Humans tend to be on the menu for him. He's focused on the combat monster aspect of his character without taking anything else into account.

... What? o_o

Are there going to be any kind of character running a Tavern that he wouldn't view as food?

Though what your describing there specifically is actually a fairly common issue with Monster PC's.
Monster's are rarely a PC, so when it does happen players tend to freak out about it.
Sometimes to the point they get too into the Monster aspect, and forget to RP as something outside of that. :/

Granted, you mentioned other things like ignoring damage which are huge issues.
But the Monster thing specifically, although is also very destructive is actually a fairly common mistake with people.
Though sadly, your players base reluctance to listen to the game at all has me not confident he would be willing to learn to RP differently, as what's normally done in such a case.

I still stand by my original advice, though with a slight alteration that dawned on me just now.
Sit the group down as a whole, and just explain that the rules for the game are important, and everyone who wants to play is expected to follow them.
Most of the others should be aware that this is in reference to one person, but if you think they won't then feel free to warn them beforehand.
The reason for saying it as a group is that you avoid putting the problem player on the spot.

If he's on the spot, he'll not only be less likely to listen but may start actively sabotaging the campaign.
If it's a group wide message though, he has nothing to be defensive about. And if he continues ignore the rules after a few warnings he's basically agreed to quitting on his own, you just need to tell him so.

[Faily]

I'd personally ask a player like that to leave and come back again once they've grown up. Seriously, he sounds like he's 12 years old or something with that kind of attitude. :smalltongue:

How does your husband even feel about his buddy just ignoring the rules and ruining the game for everyone else? I know I would've been incredibly embarressed if I brought a friend to a gaming group and they acted like that... and then I'd ask them to stop acting like immature douchebags.

[Segev]

Definitely enforce the rules. Don't let him cheat by ignoring them.

And then just run your setting. Have your human bartenders, where fitting. Have plots happen where they happen; if it's in a human-run tavern, so be it. He can either curb his monstrous instincts, stay out, or be hunted for attacking people.

Consequences for actions. Not you as the DM punishing him, but the world reacting to his actions. Including punishments from NPCs he angers or frightens.

[drake_vampiel]

I took over a game from a previous DM who allowed one of our players to build a gargoyle werewolf barbarian with a magic phobia. Just take a moment to absorb that. The build is not permitted in Pathfinder, but he did it anyway. I have trouble creating adventures with this character in the mix because not only does the character break the bad guys, but the player is eternally allergic to rules. I really need help trying to deal with this guy. I will not simply eject him from the group. My solution is to kill his character and force him to start fresh with a legal build. Suggestions? Advice?


Bring forth PUN PUN!!!! I know Pun Pun doesn't necessarily exist within Pathfinder, but hell if this guy created something that broken then so can the DM, have the party start fighting a bunch of Kobalds and then have Pun Pun show up, (hint that it would be smart ot run away) hopefully they do run and focus on him since he is the most powerful and dangerous.

[Drynwyn]

Pun Pun doesn't have to "show up", though. He has infinity reach.

[noob]

His character is perfectly legit(but not his build) just make him use Monstrous Lycanthrope template(nearly the same thing as lycanthrope but gives more CR and can be applied to everything)and apply the changes of template(instead of using the ones of lycanthrope ) and explain him you did this because Monstrous Lycanthrope is the one which should be used for his character.
conclusion: he use nearly the same character but he is perfectly legit(and his CR is higher and so is his Character Level and so now the team will gain XP even faster than him).

[GreyBlack]

The best solution is to start a new game. Have everyone roll new characters, and ask that they turn in their character sheets, the reason being that this is not your game world and would like to create a new adventure for the PCs to enjoy. After all, you didn't create the game, so you have no knowledge of the intricacies of the world you're playing in. Inform them that characters will be approved by the DM, and outline a basic power level for them.

Then, at level 6-8-ish, bring out the OP PC in question as a boss. Turn him into a recurring baddie, and give him extremely badass moments.

EDIT: Alternatively, when the PC enters lycanthrope form, take control of the character, or make him have to make a character level check to remain in control and not give in to his baser instincts. If he objects, remind him that lycanthropy is a horrible disease, and if he is unhappy, perhaps he should consider seeking a cure for his condition.

[ManicOppressive]

One option I'm fond of when a single character is overpowered in some way is to put a realistic obstacle that only faces them. In this case, it's incredibly easy.

And order of werewolf hunters a la the Silver Hand in Skyrim. Hearing about a gargoyle werewolf is going to bring them running to put the "nigh" in "nigh-unkillable." If the rest of the party comes to his defense, have the werewolf hunters focus exclusively on him. The other players can still contribute to the fight, there's no way you're accidentally punishing them, and they even get a fun little objective (protect the medical frigate gargoyle) for a fight.

Of course, none of this works if the player isn't following the rules, but that's not a problem of an overpowered PC, that's just a cheating player. My preferred method of dealing with those is to kick them out of the group, to be honest, but if that's not an option because he's friends with your husband, make it clear to your husband that you cannot DM the group with him in it unless something changes.

This isn't really a problem of a single overpowered character. DMing an overpowered character is easy if the player is cooperative. Hell, give a cooperative player a character that's secretly a Prismatic Dragon in disguise in a level 10 campaign and I can still make it a hell of a time. But even on a CW Samurai, a hostile player is going to make the game untenable.

[elonin]

I also agree with the view that his aversion to following the rules is the problem. I'm also concerned that he has a character that overshadows the rest of the party if I understand the situation. I'm wondering if the player is actually role playing his character's flaw, making saves vs harmless spells.

[Ilikednd]

Same time hang happened to me a while back, buy I was in luck, as my campaign involved a Jaberwokey so I soul switched him.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Alternatively, when the PC enters lycanthrope form, take control of the character, or make him have to make a character level check to remain in control and not give in to his baser instincts. If he objects, remind him that lycanthropy is a horrible disease, and if he is unhappy, perhaps he should consider seeking a cure for his condition.

I'd avoid this.
Specifically because it's something the new DM would be just be throwing in last minute.
If this was discussed and agreed upon when he first got the condition that's one thing, but to simply do this to your player out of the blue is entrapment, and that doesn't end well.

+That would be a Will Save, not a level check. :P

[Pluto!]

Don't be passive-aggressive.

Either straight-up tell him that there's something wrong or expect more of the same. You aren't going to "solve" his play style by gunning for him specifically or by trying to make the game unpleasant for him. You're just going to come off as a jerk.

Be an adult. Use your words.

[dascarletm]

I think I should state a variation of Grod's Law.

"You cannot and should not deal with problem players by making the game more difficult or less fun."

So, for the advice saying you should tack on bulky mechanics, turn the game into something not enjoyable for the combat focused, etc. don't.

[efreet27]

... What? o_o

Are there going to be any kind of character running a Tavern that he wouldn't view as food?

Though what your describing there specifically is actually a fairly common issue with Monster PC's.
Monster's are rarely a PC, so when it does happen players tend to freak out about it.
Sometimes to the point they get too into the Monster aspect, and forget to RP as something outside of that. :/

Granted, you mentioned other things like ignoring damage which are huge issues.
But the Monster thing specifically, although is also very destructive is actually a fairly common mistake with people.
Though sadly, your players base reluctance to listen to the game at all has me not confident he would be willing to learn to RP differently, as what's normally done in such a case.

I still stand by my original advice, though with a slight alteration that dawned on me just now.
Sit the group down as a whole, and just explain that the rules for the game are important, and everyone who wants to play is expected to follow them.
Most of the others should be aware that this is in reference to one person, but if you think they won't then feel free to warn them beforehand.
The reason for saying it as a group is that you avoid putting the problem player on the spot.

If he's on the spot, he'll not only be less likely to listen but may start actively sabotaging the campaign.
If it's a group wide message though, he has nothing to be defensive about. And if he continues ignore the rules after a few warnings he's basically agreed to quitting on his own, you just need to tell him so.

Of course there are people he can order things from, but he can really only go places and do things like that in the company of the group. The world we've created is heavily human populated. I've been trying to tie down what kind of gargoyle he is. If he's awakened he's not taking any of his negatives. If he's straight-up monstrous, technically someone should be pulling his strings. He's being very vague which makes me think he just mashed the things he liked from both together. I like the idea of having a rules talk. Thank you for your input.

[efreet27]

one option i'm fond of when a single character is overpowered in some way is to put a realistic obstacle that only faces them. In this case, it's incredibly easy.

And order of werewolf hunters a la the silver hand in skyrim. Hearing about a gargoyle werewolf is going to bring them running to put the "nigh" in "nigh-unkillable." if the rest of the party comes to his defense, have the werewolf hunters focus exclusively on him. The other players can still contribute to the fight, there's no way you're accidentally punishing them, and they even get a fun little objective (protect the medical frigate gargoyle) for a fight.

Of course, none of this works if the player isn't following the rules, but that's not a problem of an overpowered pc, that's just a cheating player. My preferred method of dealing with those is to kick them out of the group, to be honest, but if that's not an option because he's friends with your husband, make it clear to your husband that you cannot dm the group with him in it unless something changes.

This isn't really a problem of a single overpowered character. Dming an overpowered character is easy if the player is cooperative. Hell, give a cooperative player a character that's secretly a prismatic dragon in disguise in a level 10 campaign and i can still make it a hell of a time. But even on a cw samurai, a hostile player is going to make the game untenable.

omg this is awesome!!!

[efreet27]

I'd avoid this.
Specifically because it's something the new DM would be just be throwing in last minute.
If this was discussed and agreed upon when he first got the condition that's one thing, but to simply do this to your player out of the blue is entrapment, and that doesn't end well.

+That would be a Will Save, not a level check. :P

The previous DM declared he had complete control over his dog form. (he hates it when I call it that)

[Gwazi Magnum]

I've been trying to tie down what kind of gargoyle he is. If he's awakened he's not taking any of his negatives. If he's straight-up monstrous, technically someone should be pulling his strings. He's being very vague which makes me think he just mashed the things he liked from both together. I like the idea of having a rules talk. Thank you for your input.

The fact he ignores damage, or rules in general makes me think this is likely the case.

Have you asked the previous DM about what the specific template is?
If he can't point you to it then there that's a clear indicator that whatever he's using isn't legitimate.


The previous DM declared he had complete control over his dog form. (he hates it when I call it that)

In which case it'd be a **** move to change it on him.

I'd first ask the previous DM what he's using.
If he doesn't even know... Then you've got a clear hole in mechanics, in which case you as the current DM are almost obligated to fill it in.
At which point you could throw a specific template at him with working mechanics that changes things up.

If he does know, then you have a set of rules, strengths and weaknesses to make sure that the player is following.

[efreet27]

Bring forth PUN PUN!!!! I know Pun Pun doesn't necessarily exist within Pathfinder, but hell if this guy created something that broken then so can the DM, have the party start fighting a bunch of Kobalds and then have Pun Pun show up, (hint that it would be smart ot run away) hopefully they do run and focus on him since he is the most powerful and dangerous.

Who is Pun Pun?

[noob]

A build concept who does not works if the GM have a realistic history and where sarrucks existed before(which is the case in the fluff of the sarrucks where it is written they created most reptilian races) kobolds since a sarruck can access omnipotence before kobolds exists and so prevent any kobold from reaching it.(because the whole build is about getting the power manipulate form that the sarruck birth with and then using it)

[nedz]

Who is Pun Pun?

It's a famous TO build (Theoretical Optimisation) which breaks the game at level 1, also it was a joke (I think hope).

[GreyBlack]

Who is Pun Pun?

The God of PCs, whom grants himself an infinite amount of power an infinite number of times.


The previous DM declared he had complete control over his dog form. (he hates it when I call it that)


Of course there are people he can order things from, but he can really only go places and do things like that in the company of the group. The world we've created is heavily human populated. I've been trying to tie down what kind of gargoyle he is. If he's awakened he's not taking any of his negatives. If he's straight-up monstrous, technically someone should be pulling his strings. He's being very vague which makes me think he just mashed the things he liked from both together. I like the idea of having a rules talk. Thank you for your input.

Have you considered looking at the player's character sheet? Just ask the player to explain his build to you and, if there are any inconsistencies with RAW, then just ask him to tweak them. From there, I would have the rules talk with your players and gauge the response.

I still say the best option is to start a new game, but that's just me.

[noob]

The God of PCs, whom grants himself an infinite amount of power an infinite number of times.
And who can not be a kobold to do this trick since if that trick is possible the first one which did it was necessarily a sarruck because they existed before kobolds and are mostly the only element needed for this trick.
Then when a sarruck did it he can prevent any kobold from doing it.

[Necroticplague]

And who can not be a kobold to do this trick since if that trick is possible the first one which did it was necessarily a sarruck because they existed before kobolds and are mostly the only element needed for this trick.
Then when a sarruck did it he can prevent any kobold from doing it.

Sarruhks can't use Manipulate Form on themselves.

[noob]

Yes but they can do a super simple and more failproof method:
They give the ability mindslave to something else than them and this ability makes the target obey definitively and absolutely the sarruck
Now he gives a variant of Manipulate Form who works on sarruck to the mind slave and asks the slave to give him back that ability.
Well now it works perfectly with that variant of Manipulate Form he managed to get.

[nedz]

We all know that Manipulate Form is the broken power behind Pun Pun - whosoever uses it.

[noob]

Except that it is no longer the build pun pun if it is not a kobold.
It is just a sarruck who is super powerful because he had manipulate form.
And so it is rather a FP 20 creature and so the GM can not really send it at his players.

[dascarletm]

Except that it is no longer the build pun pun if it is not a kobold.
It is just a sarruck who is super powerful because he had manipulate form.
And so it is rather a FP 20 creature and so the GM can not really send it at his players.

And this matters... why? Pun pun is invoked to represent something, it has little to do with the actual build.

[nedz]

Except that it is no longer the build pun pun if it is not a kobold.
It is just a sarruck who is super powerful because he had manipulate form.
And so it is rather a FP 20 creature and so the GM can not really send it at his players.

But Kobold, like Paladin, only appear in the build for comedic purposes. It could just as easily be a Halfling Commoner.

[Necroticplague]

Manipulate Form breaks whoever gets it first. The relevant thought excercise was getting that type of power at the lowest possible ECL. A Sarruhk is ECl 21 ,IIRC, while Pun-Pun is ECL1.

[cfalcon]

As DM, you are the ultimate and only arbiter of what happens in your game world. If the player has taken damage and refuses to treat it as real, he's not a player anymore. Since you can't boot him, this makes you handle all his stats (including calculating all damage and hit from his die rolls, since he is lying about how strong he is, claiming a normal value when he is debuffed).

I think being willing to confront a player one on one over something like this is a basic requirement of DMing. It's sad that this is the case, though.

A workaround is to bring this up at the table, whenever something happens. This is easy enough- you watch when he rolls damage next. You calculate the values yourself, publicly, and when your values are lower than his and he pouts about whatever his bull**** reason why you are somehow not right about your own world, you simply put this to the group, and bring up the obvious point that he can't be immune to the rules and effects you state, no matter what his reasoning is. Unless your group is entirely wacky, they will back you when faced with a player refusing to calculate math in accordance with game state.




I'm sorry you have to deal with such a dingbat.



I always prefer absolutely open communications on this, versus anything more subtle (for instance, I wouldn't build a world around screwing his character). Once you get the cheating reigned in, you still have to deal with an OP character built by rules you would never permit- definitely not an enviable position. Strongly recommend you follow up with his PC going to do something offscreen and him playing something more in line with the rest of the group, but if he won't even record damage you have your work cut out for you. An overpowered PC either makes you buff the enemies in ways that don't fit your story, or results in him trivializing the content for the other players.