Imagining a Magical WWI-esque Setting

[ArcanistSupreme]

I've been on a WWI history kick lately, and one of the things that has grabbed my attention most about that time period is that it was a transition from centuries of more traditional warfare to the modern warfare that we are accustomed to today. Millions of men paid with their lives for commanders to learn that old tactics, such as cavalry charges and bayonet fighting were worse than useless. As the technologies of barbed wire, machine guns, gas, and the like were deployed by both sides, new tactics developed and warfare took on a form that was never seen before and has not been seen since.

How can these conditions be replicated in a fantasy setting? In my mind, it would mean that magic was just starting to be practiced and understood more widely. Wands of magic missile, fireball, and stinking cloud would be utilized on both sides. Simple armies would communicate with clarion call while more sophisticated ones would use whispering wind. Hippogriff riders could fly out of range of fireballs and drop boulders after dismissing shrink item.

Obviously this setting assumes that few higher level magic users exist, and those who do are nowhere near the omniscient gods that exist in typical settings. What other assumptions will have to be in play? What would you peg as the upward level limit? What spells would be discovered right at the advent or during this fantasy war? What spells and creatures would have to be house-ruled not to exist? What are some other interesting items, creatures, and spells that would be relevant to such a war?

[Florian]

Just a quick example for worldbuilding: Have a transition from Spells Known classes to more bookish classes having only happened recently. So before, the power of a sorcerer was a very individual and uncertain thing, you never knew if you inherit it or not, but the arcane mastery of the wizard is something learned and accademic. Same with the transotion oracles to clerics. Now, that gave rise to crafting feats and the UMD skill, both which were formerly pretty unknown.

[jesterjeff]

Spontaneous casters would be obsessed with the bloodlines, you might have British estate families who breed certain sorcerer bloodlines, while others are debased lines of the people.
The church would have a strong foothold politically in some states and would have been replaced by the charismatic ministers that rose from oracle class.

Try the 3rd party book pure steam. Has great archetypes and classes, including aan invented non arcane artificial and a secular cleric class called a chaplain that preaches loyalty to the state.

[Thealtruistorc]

I actually did this same thing a while back. It went over quite well with the history buffs.

First and foremost, I would advise trying to find or create stats for some of the new weapons. Rasputin Must Die had some of the basic Machine Guns and Mustard Gas, but other firearms should be utilized. The Animated Tank is a better representation of tank stats than the actual one in the book. Statting Planes, Subs, and other things would also be highly advisable.

Secondly, determine what countries have what abilities. I decided that each country sorta developed in its own way honing magic in a particular area, and hence the developments they had were all unique (Germany built up transmutation and developed supersolders and constructs, England focused on Conjuration and can now teleport its armies anywhere in the world, Austria built up Abjuration and is now harder to penetrate, etc.). Bloodlines should develop sort of randomly but should be the basis for the magical culture of each country. Martial Disciplines should be more refined, with different styles of combat mirroring the actual martial arts that draw their roots back to that country.

Third, Egoist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_Its_Own) Egoists. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion) I cannot stress how fun this concept is.

[stanprollyright]

Secondly, determine what countries have what abilities. I decided that each country sorta developed in its own way honing magic in a particular area, and hence the developments they had were all unique (Germany built up transmutation and developed supersolders and constructs, England focused on Conjuration and can now teleport its armies anywhere in the world, Austria built up Abjuration and is now harder to penetrate, etc.). Bloodlines should develop sort of randomly but should be the basis for the magical culture of each country. Martial Disciplines should be more refined, with different styles of combat mirroring the actual martial arts that draw their roots back to that country.

I like this idea a lot.

My question for OP is: given that magic is a metaphor/stand-in for technology, do tanks, planes, and machine guns exist? Or are they replaced by magic spells/items? For example: you could have dragonrider dogfights instead of fighter planes, sorcerers as a stand-in for artillery, constructs or whatnot as tanks, wizards using Stinking Cloud like mustard gas, etc.

[Florian]

@stanprollyright:

At this point, I'd mostly ask myself: "Would you reinvent the wheel without good reasons?"

[stanprollyright]

@stanprollyright:

At this point, I'd mostly ask myself: "Would you reinvent the wheel without good reasons?"

That's my point. Magical stand-ins for various technological wonders already exist, so would there be a reason to invent them?

[Cwymbran-San]

For inspiration, there is a host of material concerning the Last War in the Eberron campaign world. I suggest you get your hands on them, as many of your ideas can be found there: a modern-style war fought within a magical Setting (undead soldiers, constructs, flying fortresses etc.pp.)

[ArcanistSupreme]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you guys. This is all good stuff.


Just a quick example for worldbuilding: Have a transition from Spells Known classes to more bookish classes having only happened recently. So before, the power of a sorcerer was a very individual and uncertain thing, you never knew if you inherit it or not, but the arcane mastery of the wizard is something learned and accademic. Same with the transotion oracles to clerics. Now, that gave rise to crafting feats and the UMD skill, both which were formerly pretty unknown.

My thoughts exactly.


I actually did this same thing a while back. It went over quite well with the history buffs.

First and foremost, I would advise trying to find or create stats for some of the new weapons. Rasputin Must Die had some of the basic Machine Guns and Mustard Gas, but other firearms should be utilized. The Animated Tank is a better representation of tank stats than the actual one in the book. Statting Planes, Subs, and other things would also be highly advisable.

Secondly, determine what countries have what abilities. I decided that each country sorta developed in its own way honing magic in a particular area, and hence the developments they had were all unique (Germany built up transmutation and developed supersolders and constructs, England focused on Conjuration and can now teleport its armies anywhere in the world, Austria built up Abjuration and is now harder to penetrate, etc.). Bloodlines should develop sort of randomly but should be the basis for the magical culture of each country. Martial Disciplines should be more refined, with different styles of combat mirroring the actual martial arts that draw their roots back to that country.

Third, Egoist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_Its_Own) Egoists. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion) I cannot stress how fun this concept is.

I like the idea of different nations have different specialties, as their real-world analogues did. I also like the idea of forbidden magic; raising armies of undead could be the unrestricted submarine warfare that brings a formerly neutral nation of undead-haters in on the side of the opposition. Any other ideas here?

(Also, please elaborate on using Egoists. I get that Psions are fun, but I'm not sure that I understand how it relates, beyond certain over-inflated egos of the time period leading to millions of lives being thrown away.)


My question for OP is: given that magic is a metaphor/stand-in for technology, do tanks, planes, and machine guns exist? Or are they replaced by magic spells/items? For example: you could have dragonrider dogfights instead of fighter planes, sorcerers as a stand-in for artillery, constructs or whatnot as tanks, wizards using Stinking Cloud like mustard gas, etc.

My idea is to try to find existing Pathfinder analogues for real life technology. How would this war develop in a world of magic? I did want to avoid riding dragons (as they are typically intelligent enough to have their own agenda [although wyrmlings and young adults being conscripted in place of planes and pilots could be interesting]). I feel that sorcerers are too much of a renewable resource to replicate the situation nations faced when they discovered that modern warfare meant being able to spend shells and ammunition way faster than they could be produced. I was thinking more like scrolls and wands being cranked out for use by low level wizards. But I like that basic line of reasoning. Keep the ideas coming!


@stanprollyright:

At this point, I'd mostly ask myself: "Would you reinvent the wheel without good reasons?"

As stanprollyright said, in a world of sufficient magic there would be no need for more sophisticated technology. And part of the fun of this exercise is finding how closely I can imitate the WWI vibe while limiting myself to existing Pathfinder material.


For inspiration, there is a host of material concerning the Last War in the Eberron campaign world. I suggest you get your hands on them, as many of your ideas can be found there: a modern-style war fought within a magical Setting (undead soldiers, constructs, flying fortresses etc.pp.)

I do love the Eberron setting, and will certainly be picking through it again. The one issue that I have with the setting for this scenario is the steam-punky feel, which I'd like to keep as fantasy-esque as possible as a part of the exercise. There are still a great number of things that I can cherry pick from, and I'm definitely open to suggestions.



Again, thank you to everyone for your feedback. One other thing I want to begin considering is not just what should be included, but what should be excluded. What spells/creatures/etc. have the capability to break this setting wide open and ruin the vibes?

[Thealtruistorc]

I like the idea of different nations have different specialties, as their real-world analogues did. I also like the idea of forbidden magic; raising armies of undead could be the unrestricted submarine warfare that brings a formerly neutral nation of undead-haters in on the side of the opposition. Any other ideas here?

(Also, please elaborate on using Egoists. I get that Psions are fun, but I'm not sure that I understand how it relates, beyond certain over-inflated egos of the time period leading to millions of lives being thrown away.)

My idea is to try to find existing Pathfinder analogues for real life technology. How would this war develop in a world of magic? I did want to avoid riding dragons (as they are typically intelligent enough to have their own agenda [although wyrmlings and young adults being conscripted in place of planes and pilots could be interesting]). I feel that sorcerers are too much of a renewable resource to replicate the situation nations faced when they discovered that modern warfare meant being able to spend shells and ammunition way faster than they could be produced. I was thinking more like scrolls and wands being cranked out for use by low level wizards. But I like that basic line of reasoning. Keep the ideas coming!

Again, thank you to everyone for your feedback. One other thing I want to begin considering is not just what should be included, but what should be excluded. What spells/creatures/etc. have the capability to break this setting wide open and ruin the vibes?

Okay, Egoism was a philosophical group closely associated with anarchism and later dadaism that ended up kickstarting a failed government overthrow in Germany. I was thinking groups like that could spring up periodically and, if they have a lot of power, really throw a wrench into the war efforts.

The rule I used for mine was "constructs, undead, and anything else that humans can create" (though summons may be okay in some circumstances). Involvement of outsiders would take away the human factor.

For analogies, I may suggest the War Machine template from Advanced Bestiary. It can transform most any creature into a literal tank, and I envision many, many creative utilities for it (dragonplanes and tarrasquetanks, anyone?) For extra fun, attach modern weapons to these things and watch your players gape in awe as the mechanical carrion crawler starts firing mortar shells from its back.

Also, is this actually set on a magical earth or a fantasy world with some technology? The distinction is important.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Okay, Egoism was a philosophical group closely associated with anarchism and later dadaism that ended up kickstarting a failed government overthrow in Germany. I was thinking groups like that could spring up periodically and, if they have a lot of power, really throw a wrench into the war efforts.

The rule I used for mine was "constructs, undead, and anything else that humans can create" (though summons may be okay in some circumstances). Involvement of outsiders would take away the human factor.

Ah. That makes sense. I knew that all of the Allied powers had trouble with revolutionaries, but I wasn't aware of the Germans having the same problem due to their more strict society.

I do like the "anything humans can create" rule.


Also, is this actually set on a magical earth or a fantasy world with some technology? The distinction is important.

I'm actually looking to create an entirely fantasy world with little to no modern technology. My vision is replacing technology as closely as possible with existing Pathfinder analogues, ideally avoiding d20 Modern-esque stuff.

[The Glyphstone]

As far as dragons go, what about ones that were specifically bred/raised in captivity, so that their agenda is by nature that of their 'home' country? I'm thinking something similar to the Temeraire novels here, where the dragons are demonstrably as smart or smarter than most people, but still bred over generations into a mindset of servitude.

A dragon with a crew of fireball-chucking wizards on its backs would make for a damn scary bomber-analogue.

[ArcanistSupreme]

As far as dragons go, what about ones that were specifically bred/raised in captivity, so that their agenda is by nature that of their 'home' country? I'm thinking something similar to the Temeraire novels here, where the dragons are demonstrably as smart or smarter than most people, but still bred over generations into a mindset of servitude.

A dragon with a crew of fireball-chucking wizards on its backs would make for a damn scary bomber-analogue.

That's certainly interesting. Maybe using the 3.5 MMWhatever (V?) version of dragons that takes away their spells and amps up their other attributes to make them more of an analogue for an attack craft than a flying wizard with teeth.

[Florian]

That's certainly interesting. Maybe using the 3.5 MMWhatever (V?) version of dragons that takes away their spells and amps up their other attributes to make them more of an analogue for an attack craft than a flying wizard with teeth.

I'd rethink that a bit. If you want to keep the scale of open warfare that WWI reached at its peak, then less populous races are either fully integrated or have gone extinct by now, including dragons.

In addition, keep in mind to adapt the scale of a given battlefield to conform to what magic is capable of, especially combat spells with a reach of "long".

[Novawurmson]

I know Eberron's been mentioned, but I'd just like to restate that Eberron was specifically and explicitly made to evoke a WWI/Post WWI vibe. Forge of War gets the point across best, I think.

[dascarletm]

I made a setting like this, and I took a lot of inspiration from Full Metal Alchemist. It is basically what you are looking for, minus some of the high level wizard stuff. Oh and no dragons n' stuff.

[Vogie]

I'd say it'd be easier to use the beginning of the war rather than the end. You don't want to figure out everything that could be discovered, but rather have your people on the ground actually discovering it. For example, at the beginning of the war there were no aircraft... then they started using balloons for surveillance... then they started having people in balloons with guns... then airplanes for surveillance... then prop planes flying over throwing grenades out the side... and finally, at the end of the war, you see the token aircraft we associate with the era.

The first thing to do is to develop your countries with solid magical but peace-focused abilities, where they tend to leave everyone else alone. Develop their "fighting styles" that have only been used towards each other up until that point, so no one nation-state has a distinct advantage over another.

For example:
United Kingdom - Druids in the north with a focus on self-sufficiency, Universalist & Conjuration Wizards in the south with a focus on trade
France Prefers Bardic & Cleric style Magic and prefers using "Champion Combat" rather than full war
Russia- Elemental/Evocation magic, with a large focus on Fire and Ice

Austria-Hungary- Fortress-Warfare, both creation of fortresses and Siegecraft
Germany - Artifice, Alchemy, and Transmutation


If you focus on the very beginning of the conflict, you can be in a traditional PF setting. Then, your German equivalent attacks. Are they creating tanks by mobilizing Austrian Fortresses? Are they occultish and have armies of the undead? Whatever it is, the existing horse, bow and primitive firearms you have are now worthless, or at least quite lacking.

If you want to nix things like Dragons, demons or outsiders, then you can use the concept of the "Last war". The Old War. The War to end all wars. The war that killed the Dragons, that closed the portals, the last time that all the nations were united to fight. Hundreds of years ago, all of those things were defeated and now it's just us. (... Or is it?) That way you can reference them without having to worry about them in the setting.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'd rethink that a bit. If you want to keep the scale of open warfare that WWI reached at its peak, then less populous races are either fully integrated or have gone extinct by now, including dragons.

In addition, keep in mind to adapt the scale of a given battlefield to conform to what magic is capable of, especially combat spells with a reach of "long".

I'm not sure I understand the first part of your comment. Care to elaborate?

As to the range, I've been thinking about that. What is the best way to approximate what artillery and machine guns are capable of? Do I just slap enlarge spell on and call it good? How do I duplicate things like the Paris guns?


I know Eberron's been mentioned, but I'd just like to restate that Eberron was specifically and explicitly made to evoke a WWI/Post WWI vibe. Forge of War gets the point across best, I think.

I thought that Eberron did to an extent, but things like the warforged, the Mournland, and battle titans seemed to developed (more WWII-esque). I also don't have a copy of Forge of War availabe. Would you mind giving me the highlights?


I made a setting like this, and I took a lot of inspiration from Full Metal Alchemist. It is basically what you are looking for, minus some of the high level wizard stuff. Oh and no dragons n' stuff.

Care to elaborate?


I'd say it'd be easier to use the beginning of the war rather than the end. You don't want to figure out everything that could be discovered, but rather have your people on the ground actually discovering it. For example, at the beginning of the war there were no aircraft... then they started using balloons for surveillance... then they started having people in balloons with guns... then airplanes for surveillance... then prop planes flying over throwing grenades out the side... and finally, at the end of the war, you see the token aircraft we associate with the era.

The first thing to do is to develop your countries with solid magical but peace-focused abilities, where they tend to leave everyone else alone. Develop their "fighting styles" that have only been used towards each other up until that point, so no one nation-state has a distinct advantage over another.

For example:
United Kingdom - Druids in the north with a focus on self-sufficiency, Universalist & Conjuration Wizards in the south with a focus on trade
France Prefers Bardic & Cleric style Magic and prefers using "Champion Combat" rather than full war
Russia- Elemental/Evocation magic, with a large focus on Fire and Ice

Austria-Hungary- Fortress-Warfare, both creation of fortresses and Siegecraft
Germany - Artifice, Alchemy, and Transmutation


If you focus on the very beginning of the conflict, you can be in a traditional PF setting. Then, your German equivalent attacks. Are they creating tanks by mobilizing Austrian Fortresses? Are they occultish and have armies of the undead? Whatever it is, the existing horse, bow and primitive firearms you have are now worthless, or at least quite lacking.

I do intend to develop distinct styles of the various nations and I like most of what you have (although Russia analogue's main style would be great numbers, ill-preparedness, and incompetence rather than anything so cool. While other nations may have animated carriages, they'll still have horse-drawn wagons and that sort of thing.). I also want to nitpick and point out that tanks were developed by the British rather than the Germans. :smalltongue:

The beginning of the conflict is definitely my intention. As this new magic emerges, generals used to more traditional methods of warfare will be the ones in charge, and their ignorance of how totally that changes warfare is part of my fascination with the time period. It's an interim war between one era and the next, and it is during this war that nations begin to discover how to navigate modern warfare and its horrific costs. As the end of the war arrives, the transition has been achieved by a few of the nations, and there is a much greater understanding of the strategies and the countermeasures of mechanized warfare. I'm envisioning old school commanders using carrier pigeons and signal flags instead of stones of whispering wind, cavalry commanders attacking across fields altered with spike growth, and huge meat grinders with soldiers deeply entrenched on either side.

[Florian]

@ArcanistSurpreme:

Range and accuracy of spells vastly exceed what most weapons of that era were capable of delivering, so your killing fields will be brutal, and the trenches will be way more appart to take that into account. OTOH, there is no equivalent to real artillery besides high level scry/teleport/nova tactics.

The other thing is about the more typical "vast and unexplored wilderness/Point of Light" thing that makes fantasy races possible in most settings. Where you seem to be heading, that setup can't work, as you need funktioning empires, beginning mundane or magical industrialization and a huge amount of manpower to get the feeling right.
So, tribe of frost giants? Either exterminated or integrated into an empire. Same holds true for all fanatsy faces with a necessarily low population, like dragons.

[dascarletm]

Care to elaborate?


If you watch a lot of the flash-back episodes you'll see the alchemists use their alchemy (which is basically magic) in warfare. It completely changes warfare, and most of the opposing side (which doesn't have magic) gets decimated. Some scenes include a wall of stone stopping retreat, buildings being cleared of people by a fireball, etc.

It gives a good visual representation of what magic can do, and the tech level is roughly WWI to WWII.

[DedWards]

Reading this thread reminds me of a novel I'm reading where the wars are waged in a similar way to what you want here. Give it a read, it might supply some inspiration:

http://krytykal.org/daybreak/

[noob]

If you want it to look world war 1 you will need to remove all the disease curing spells because an really huge portion of the dead were from disease(And it made inherent part of the crappy life of the trench soldiers).

[Zombulian]

@ArcanistSurpreme:

Range and accuracy of spells vastly exceed what most weapons of that era were capable of delivering, so your killing fields will be brutal, and the trenches will be way more appart to take that into account. OTOH, there is no equivalent to real artillery besides high level scry/teleport/nova tactics.

The other thing is about the more typical "vast and unexplored wilderness/Point of Light" thing that makes fantasy races possible in most settings. Where you seem to be heading, that setup can't work, as you need funktioning empires, beginning mundane or magical industrialization and a huge amount of manpower to get the feeling right.
So, tribe of frost giants? Either exterminated or integrated into an empire. Same holds true for all fanatsy faces with a necessarily low population, like dragons.

This is sort of what I was starting to think about. One of the biggest defining factors of WWI was the fact that 1. The battlefields rarely changed. Generally the war was fought on a few killing grounds for long drawn out periods of time. Being taken and re-taken. 2. D&D fights are resolved waaaaaay quicker than these battles. In fact, the major conflicts recorded were described by Churchill as "sieges", not battles.

How are you gonna get shellshock effects on the soldiers? How do you get enough resources or just spell slots in a day to just barrage a trench with fireballs for hours?

[druid91]

This is sort of what I was starting to think about. One of the biggest defining factors of WWI was the fact that 1. The battlefields rarely changed. Generally the war was fought on a few killing grounds for long drawn out periods of time. Being taken and re-taken. 2. D&D fights are resolved waaaaaay quicker than these battles. In fact, the major conflicts recorded were described by Churchill as "sieges", not battles.

How are you gonna get shellshock effects on the soldiers? How do you get enough resources or just spell slots in a day to just barrage a trench with fireballs for hours?

Large population?

[Zombulian]

Large population?

Yeah that. Possibly a few high level Wizards/Artificers/Sidhe Scholars who craft artillery staffs and a bunch of low level casters with the recharge staff feat.

[Vogie]

This is sort of what I was starting to think about. One of the biggest defining factors of WWI was the fact that 1. The battlefields rarely changed. Generally the war was fought on a few killing grounds for long drawn out periods of time. Being taken and re-taken. 2. D&D fights are resolved waaaaaay quicker than these battles. In fact, the major conflicts recorded were described by Churchill as "sieges", not battles.

How are you gonna get shellshock effects on the soldiers? How do you get enough resources or just spell slots in a day to just barrage a trench with fireballs for hours?


Not really - that would warp the battlefield around those magic users. That's where the variations in magic styles would converge. For example, some would
* dig in, have a trench stalemate, then an explosive charge with one's Magic users... and if it fails, they fall back and wait until tomorrow, bracing themselves for the magical counter attack.
* would use their wizards like the German "big bertha" super-howitzers, where they would park it, fire off as much long range punishment as they could... then skedaddle.
* would force their enemies to fight on two fronts, because each advance on a line would be coordinated with a battalion of troops teleporting behind them... or maybe coordinating assaults after a series of explosives appeared amongst the camp.
*counter typical trench warfare by using the ground itself as a weapon, summoning elementals, tunneling and Mud to stone shenanigans

Will someone try a fireball-spewing "machine gun" Wizard? Sure, until the other side counters it. Will there still be shellshock? Certainly. If you thought trenches and mortars are terrifying, wait until you include balls of fire that can be directed whist in motion or the possibility of someone summoning a celestial whale several hundred feet above your camp. Questioning if it's normal weather or a druid trying to smite you with lightning. Going after a fallen comrade only to find they're now undead and hungry. Shellshock is only the beginning.

[Zombulian]

Not really - that would warp the battlefield around those magic users. That's where the variations in magic styles would converge. For example, some would
* dig in, have a trench stalemate, then an explosive charge with one's Magic users... and if it fails, they fall back and wait until tomorrow, bracing themselves for the magical counter attack.
* would use their wizards like the German "big bertha" super-howitzers, where they would park it, fire off as much long range punishment as they could... then skedaddle.
* would force their enemies to fight on two fronts, because each advance on a line would be coordinated with a battalion of troops teleporting behind them... or maybe coordinating assaults after a series of explosives appeared amongst the camp.
*counter typical trench warfare by using the ground itself as a weapon, summoning elementals, tunneling and Mud to stone shenanigans

Will someone try a fireball-spewing "machine gun" Wizard? Sure, until the other side counters it. Will there still be shellshock? Certainly. If you thought trenches and mortars are terrifying, wait until you include balls of fire that can be directed whist in motion or the possibility of someone summoning a celestial whale several hundred feet above your camp. Questioning if it's normal weather or a druid trying to smite you with lightning. Going after a fallen comrade only to find they're now undead and hungry. Shellshock is only the beginning.

Spoopy. MAN teleportation would make a war like this so hard. If they had anything even close to the amount of mobility that teleportation gives WWI would've been over so fast.

[Thealtruistorc]

Spoopy. MAN teleportation would make a war like this so hard. If they had anything even close to the amount of mobility that teleportation gives WWI would've been over so fast.

Unless they also had forbiddance. With the GDP of a particularly powerful country paying the material component cost on key areas should be a cinch.

[dascarletm]

You just need to expand everything into a magical variation of it.

Instead of a physical trench dug into the ground, it is a magical "trench" that grants defenses against spells and such.

These could me magical items or what have you.

[Florian]

As a generall warning - Don't go into this direction and don't base in-game reality on the core rules.

These are not a simulation of reality and focus more on small-scale, high impact stuff with a focus on game balance, something that has jack to do with the world and how it works.

As we're talking Pathfinder here, take a look at both scaling options (Downtime, Kingdom) and take a look at how these change the Parameters.

Stuff like scry-teleport-nova works on the smaller, individual scale but will break down once you reached the kingdom scale and they will break down hard.

I'd also use "Item Magic" instead of "Spell Magic" to model the advancement. Instead of a Wand of Magic Missiles, use either Javelins of Lightning or, IMHO even better, a refluffed Arc Rifle (Technology Guide) as a "Lightning Stick" that can be used as a regular martial ranged weapon and has to be recharged by your local mages or by a bound air elemental or some such thing.

If you now say "But, expenses!", actually no. Looking at the aforementioned scaling, that doesn't have a real impact, as that kind of equipment isn't calculated with gp cost anymore but with RP and those are quite different. (remember: gp cost only has to do with game balance on a small character-centric scale)

[Vogie]

I'll have to disagree - Having a world where this magic is the "new innovation" but trying to make up the rules as you go along would be insane... both in keeping track of things and reigning in the players who aren't stuck in early 20th century mindsets.

Also, restrictions breed creativity.
*Material components are already things nation-states fight over. If the big bad uses necromancy to fill out his armies, who would he attack first? Well, whoever has the most Onyx.
*If you're a part of an group that overwhelms targets using teleportation, what happens when you face an opponent that has figured out abjuration magic, such as forbiddance? (You know, besides the movie Jumper)
*Fortresscrafters and siege mages have a distinct advantage in long, drawn-out battles... until they run across Druids that can turn their castles into mud and warp their engines into firewood.
*The one nation-state's spells use a fairly common component... but when they use what they think is the same component from another country, it does something... strange. Could be a good strange or a bad strange. Or both.
*Some nation-states could rely on item based magic while others could be ritual and still others on Vancian casting. Someone in the party suggests you can stop the vancians Fireballs by drawing them into areas that have no Bats or sulfur.

Will an infantry unit with Lightning Sticks fare better or worse than a battalion of Knights & Archers backed up by a pair of Sorcerers? That's the entire idea of the setting.

[Florian]

@Vogie:

Having players stuck in the 20th century mindset is a very important part of it, as you need point of camparison to showcase the insanity of it.

We know that fixed bayonet charges (on your lighning stick) are nearly suicide and a waste of lifes. We know that charging a wall of fire is plain dumb, but that is 20:20 hindsight.

Back then, they didn't and exactly that is important, the thing to showcase in this setting.

What you say advances allready one step beyond that watershed line.

[Vogie]

@Vogie:

Having players stuck in the 20th century mindset is a very important part of it, as you need point of camparison to showcase the insanity of it.

We know that fixed bayonet charges (on your lighning stick) are nearly suicide and a waste of lifes. We know that charging a wall of fire is plain dumb, but that is 20:20 hindsight.

Back then, they didn't and exactly that is important, the thing to showcase in this setting.

What you say advances allready one step beyond that watershed line.

I was referring to the Lightning Stick / "Arc Rifles" from your previous post, not fixed bayonets. That does sound insane. Less charge to the clear death, more battlefront meets shadows of Mordor.

Charging at a wall of fire could be done if you're planning to douse it with a torrent of water when you arrive, or if you happen to be fireproof.

I'm not saying that it will not be ridiculous... I'm sure it will be. But that's not a bad thing. That's why I think basing a massive conflict on the rules based for a small party would be interesting. The same way that most "war stories", like those shown in movies such as Saving Private Ryan, War Horse or Fury, are "about" a massive national conflict that is viewed through the eyes of a handful of protags.

[Florian]

I was referring to the Lightning Stick / "Arc Rifles" from your previous post, not fixed bayonets. That does sound insane. Less charge to the clear death, more battlefront meets shadows of Mordor.

Charging at a wall of fire could be done if you're planning to douse it with a torrent of water when you arrive, or if you happen to be fireproof.

I'm not saying that it will not be ridiculous... I'm sure it will be. But that's not a bad thing. That's why I think basing a massive conflict on the rules based for a small party would be interesting. The same way that most "war stories", like those shown in movies such as Saving Private Ryan, War Horse or Fury, are "about" a massive national conflict that is viewed through the eyes of a handful of protags.

Sorry, but no. When we're talking about that time period, it is all about the insanity of not doing a transition in thinking and tactics.
We modern people are not really fit to comprehend that anymore, but that difference is important.
What you hint at is simple being "modern" while using "fantasy" trappings, but that is not what WWI based setting is about.

What you propose is a whole-cloth transition, disregarding the time in between.

[Cirrylius]

I've been on a WWI history kick lately

Look up the Grimnoir series. One part Dresden, two parts Great Depression, and one part X-Men. The supernatural unexpectedly arriving during warfare was a big, big deal to the world history and plot.

[Tvtyrant]

I would just have everything backfire, honestly. Fell drain bombs filled no man's land with ghouls, trying to use invisibile commandos feel prey to simple dogs, flying wizards got sniped out of the air by antimagic bullets, stc.

WWI is not defined by an unwillingness to change as a failure to find a solution. For years nothing worked, from gas to massed barrages to airplanes to tanks to storm troopers. If you look up the actual figures for tank operations, for instance, they consistently lost the majority without accomplishing much. The Germans settled on infiltration tactics, which workes until they ran out of trained commandos. Bombers were too innaccurate, gas too slow, and other fronts too risky. The eventual win had more to do with Germany running out of supplies and manpower than actual battlefield successes.

[ArcanistSupreme]

That's why I think basing a massive conflict on the rules based for a small party would be interesting. The same way that most "war stories", like those shown in movies such as Saving Private Ryan, War Horse or Fury, are "about" a massive national conflict that is viewed through the eyes of a handful of protags.

I'd like to create an internally consistent world where players and NPCs are playing by the same rules, but I want to pare down the rules via limiting spell selection and item availability rather than changing the setting because...


Sorry, but no. When we're talking about that time period, it is all about the insanity of not doing a transition in thinking and tactics.
We modern people are not really fit to comprehend that anymore, but that difference is important.
What you hint at is simple being "modern" while using "fantasy" trappings, but that is not what WWI based setting is about.

What you propose is a whole-cloth transition, disregarding the time in between.

...this. The madness of those in charge, and their willingness to throw away millions of lives simply because they couldn't figure out any other course of action is a huge part of the setting I want to create. There will be an emergence of fantastic new tools, but because of old school thinking, lack of resources, and/or lack of creativity, many of these won't be consistently put to good use before the end of the war.


Look up the Grimnoir series. One part Dresden, two parts Great Depression, and one part X-Men. The supernatural unexpectedly arriving during warfare was a big, big deal to the world history and plot.

Intriguing! I'll look it up for sure!


I would just have everything backfire, honestly. Fell drain bombs filled no man's land with ghouls, trying to use invisibile commandos feel prey to simple dogs, flying wizards got sniped out of the air by antimagic bullets, stc.

WWI is not defined by an unwillingness to change as a failure to find a solution. For years nothing worked, from gas to massed barrages to airplanes to tanks to storm troopers. If you look up the actual figures for tank operations, for instance, they consistently lost the majority without accomplishing much. The Germans settled on infiltration tactics, which workes until they ran out of trained commandos. Bombers were too innaccurate, gas too slow, and other fronts too risky. The eventual win had more to do with Germany running out of supplies and manpower than actual battlefield successes.

I would argue that unwillingness to change played a huge role in causing hundreds of thousands of pointless deaths, especially in the first half-ish of the war. Generals would throw cavalry at trenches and machine guns again and again, proclaim loudly that bayonet charges would win the day, and, in one of the only large scale naval battles, admirals refused to use the radio in favor of signal flags that were completely undetectable by allies on a modern battlefield (with the drastically increased distances and all of the smoke).

Yes, there were a lot of attempts at new things that went poorly on their initial runs or overall implementation, but a lot of failures had to do with how they were used. The first German gas attack was enormously successful, but they were as surprised by the results as the British, so there was no follow-up. Tanks were also hugely successful when they were first introduced, but it was on a small scale because there weren't many of them, they were finicky, and after the initial use they lost an element of surprise. There was a lot of trial and error, but by the end of the war they were starting to figure out how the pieces fit together. But that innovation didn't start to show until people started getting desperate; the Germans especially were willing to try new things and gamble because of the clock put on them by the British blockade.

And that is exactly the essence I want to capture. The people in charge come from long lines that have been doing things a certain way for a long, long time. The generals are all seasoned veterans from an era that is now effectively over, but they are for the most part stubbornly refusing to adapt until they are forced to. When the battlefield changed, generals still went ahead with now outdated plans because they had spent months planning and preparing them, and it was seen as a huge waste if they didn't go through with them anyway. Of the new technologies, some are immediately grasped and implemented (machine guns), others are released but not followed up on quickly enough to avoid countermeasures (gas and gas masks), and still others will require being combined with other technologies and tactics to reach peak effectiveness (artillery strike + aerial reconnaissance, radio + encryption, merchant ship + battleships + convoys, etc.). Players will be able to be innovative on a small scale, but until they become more influential, new tricks shown to allies may be completely ineffective because of how they are used (Teleportation? Why should I send a wizard to deliver a message when we already have whispering wind? No, no, those spell slots would be much better spent on fireballs to soften the enemy up for tomorrow's great assault which is guaranteed to win the war!).

I want a setting where war is completely different than the way those fighting it think it should be, and they only come to this realization very, very slowly.