Rate this character concept?

[tadkins]

Human, CG
Ranger (Guide)1/Sorcerer (Boreal Bloodline)9/Eldritch Knight 10

He's a rugged loner who makes his home in the cold mountains, coming down to town every so often to trade what he gathers from the treacherous heights. He might join a party as a PC during one of his trips after some convincing, or he might be found as a usually helpful NPC in town or in the wilderness surrounding the mountain.

Thanks to his bloodline, he feels quite at home in the cold. His main assets are his magical power, survival skills, and an old greatsword passed down by his father. By itself the sword is nothing spectacular, but when it's targeted by his Cold Steel power it becomes a deadly weapon of ice. He keeps it around mainly for sentimental reasons.

I'm basically just aiming for an ice-based full spellcaster that can function in melee. One of his first feats would definitely be Power Attack. I would go for a mix of melee-friendly spells, ice-based control and utility as I leveled up. The Boreal Sorcerer seems pretty perfect for that. What do you guys think? Any thoughts, comments or tips would be appreciated.

[Geddy2112]

Its a cool concept (pun intended) and it works pretty well- there is plenty of good arcane magic to gish with, and you get some good bonus spells from your bloodline. If you try to go blast happy and max the use of your +1 it is going to leave you wanting for spells. it is a decent switch hitter build-you can use blast spells at range instead of a bow, then slog it out with the greatsword in combat.

For stats, you will need to dump wisdom and probably intelligence, as you need good dex, con, strength and charisma. Power attack is going to be hard to use on a 1/2 BAB class, even with gishing. I am not a major fan of eldritch knight, but the spell critical is a nice ability. You want to get improved critical/keen on your weapon and ideally use an 18-20 crit range weapon to critfish and swift action cast.

[tadkins]

Its a cool concept (pun intended) and it works pretty well- there is plenty of good arcane magic to gish with, and you get some good bonus spells from your bloodline. If you try to go blast happy and max the use of your +1 it is going to leave you wanting for spells. it is a decent switch hitter build-you can use blast spells at range instead of a bow, then slog it out with the greatsword in combat.

Thanks. :) I figure being able to fight with a weapon would help to conserve spells. Throw a couple buffs, a control spell, then start wailing with my sword...that sort of thing.


For stats, you will need to dump wisdom and probably intelligence, as you need good dex, con, strength and charisma. Power attack is going to be hard to use on a 1/2 BAB class, even with gishing. I am not a major fan of eldritch knight, but the spell critical is a nice ability. You want to get improved critical/keen on your weapon and ideally use an 18-20 crit range weapon to critfish and swift action cast.

I'm open to other PrCs. Eldritch Knight is actually the only gish one I know of for PF. xD

[Geddy2112]

If you are open to also using a bow, arcane archer is far better for gishing and having a weapon-less risky than using a greatsword, but you can do that as well if you wanted!

[tadkins]

If you are open to also using a bow, arcane archer is far better for gishing and having a weapon-less risky than using a greatsword, but you can do that as well if you wanted!

I would actually like to stick with the melee. Just love the thought of swinging around a big crystalline greatsword covered in ice. xD

[Geddy2112]

You could go dragon disciple and pick a cold dragon bloodline, otherwise it looks fairly set. Pick a cold based spell per level for blasting and whatnot, then stick to gish spells like mirror image, rage, etc etc.

[Hazrond]

Why not go full gish using an Eldritch Scion magus using something like either the Black-Blooded or Draconic bloodlines for your cold-based needs, or maybe just a straight bloodrager

[Florian]

I'd not rate this very high, maybe 2 stars out of 5.

Reasons: If you actually want to play that character from the ground up, around the levels melee weapons are most relevant, your BAB is lacking. You need to enter EK as fast as possible, leading to your bloodline powers and spellcasting start lacking around the levels they are most relevant.

Compare your build advancement to how a Magus (Eldritch Scion) and you'll see that the Magus is way ahead in all departments until around lvl17, when the EK gains higher spell levels.

As for ice-based controller, take a look at Witch (Winter Witch)/Winter Witch (yeah, the archetype and PrC are called the same). This is ice-based controll to the T.

[tadkins]

Why not go full gish using an Eldritch Scion magus using something like either the Black-Blooded or Draconic bloodlines for your cold-based needs, or maybe just a straight bloodrager



Compare your build advancement to how a Magus (Eldritch Scion) and you'll see that the Magus is way ahead in all departments until around lvl17, when the EK gains higher spell levels.

Main issue is that I just want to be able to access the level 9 spells and I can't do that as a Magus or Bloodrager. I'm trying to make a frost based melee build work under that condition.

[Florian]

Main issue is that I just want to be able to access the level 9 spells and I can't do that as a Magus or Bloodrager. I'm trying to make a frost based melee build work under that condition.

Well, let's look at it this way: The Boreal bloodline doesn't provide too useful or too thematically fitting things. The bloodline arcana is practically a free Elemental Focus (Cold) feat, most of the bloodline powers are thematically fitting but don't come up often and can be negated by other means. You'll drop out of the sorcerer class before the real cold spells appear on the bonus spells known list, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Switching to Elementalist Wizard (Water) would quicken up your entry to EK and provide level 9 spells a bit earlier, too.

Sticking with Sorcerer and taking the look at the Boreal bloodline into account, I'd actually pick Fighter (Unbreakeable) and Sorcerer (Psychic) as a basis, supplemented by VMC Wizard (Elementalist Water). That allows you to cast fully armored, maybe even handling a 2H (reach) weapon and you can always pick your Cold spells and the Elemental Focus feats.

[tadkins]

Well, let's look at it this way: The Boreal bloodline doesn't provide too useful or too thematically fitting things. The bloodline arcana is practically a free Elemental Focus (Cold) feat, most of the bloodline powers are thematically fitting but don't come up often and can be negated by other means. You'll drop out of the sorcerer class before the real cold spells appear on the bonus spells known list, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Switching to Elementalist Wizard (Water) would quicken up your entry to EK and provide level 9 spells a bit earlier, too.

Sticking with Sorcerer and taking the look at the Boreal bloodline into account, I'd actually pick Fighter (Unbreakeable) and Sorcerer (Psychic) as a basis, supplemented by VMC Wizard (Elementalist Water). That allows you to cast fully armored, maybe even handling a 2H (reach) weapon and you can always pick your Cold spells and the Elemental Focus feats.

Interesting! I wouldn't be opposed to switching to Wizard. So a Ranger (Guide) 1/Wizard (Water Elementalist)9/EK 10 would work pretty well?

[grarrrg]

I'm open to other PrCs. Eldritch Knight is actually the only gish one I know of for PF. xD

TO THE DIPPING GUIDE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230500-Pathfinder-Dipping-for-Fun-and-Profit-%28mostly-Profit%29&p=12613046&viewfull=1#post12613046)!
(or more accurately the 3rd post of said guide, the following section of which has little to do with dipping)
Arcane (sorted by minimum lost casting levels)
No Lost Casting
*Arcane Trickster, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting (Sandman Archetype Bard only, otherwise +2 lost Casting)
Arclord of Nex, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Bloatmage, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Cyphermage, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Diabolist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Envoy of Balance, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Genie Binder, 1/2 Bab, 5/5 Casting
Harrower, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Hellknight Signifier, 3/4 Bab, 10/10 Casting (must have Medium Armor Prof., if you would rather Dip than spend 2 feats, this drops to 1 Lost Casting)
Loremaster, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Magaambyan Arcanist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Spherewalker, 3/4 Bab, 5/5 Casting
Thuvian Alchemist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting
Veiled Illusionist, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting

1 Lost Casting (no Casting on 1st level of PrC)
Agent of the Grave, 1/2 Bab, 4/5 Casting
Arcane Archer, Full Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Blackfire Adept, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Daivrat, 1/2 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Demoniac, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
**Dragon Disciple, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
***Eldritch Knight, Full Bab, 9/10 Casting (only for Magus entry)
Evangelist, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
****Living Monolith, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Mystery Cultist, 3/4 Bab, 9/10 Casting
Pathfinder Savant, 1/2 Bab, 6/7 Casting
Razmiran Priest, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Riftwarden, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Souldrinker, 1/2 Bab, 8/10 Casting (if taken to level 5 or less)
Storm Kindler, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Tattooed Mystic, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Umbral Court Agent, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if taken to level 4 or less)
Winter Witch, 1/2 Bab, 9/10 Casting (Winter Witch archetype-Only)

2 Lost Casting
Arcane Archer, Full Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Arcane Trickster, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting (lost casting due to Pre-Req of 2d6 Sneak Attack)
Blackfire Adept, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
**Dragon Disciple, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Eldritch Knight, Full Bab, 9/10 Casting (lost casting due to Pre-Req of All Martial Weapon prof.)
Razmiran Priest, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Riftwarden, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Souldrinker, 1/2 Bab, 8/10 Casting (if taken to level 6 or more)
Storm Kindler, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)
Tattooed Mystic, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-8 levels are taken)
Umbral Court Agent, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 5-to-8 levels are taken)

3 Lost Casting
Arcane Archer, Full Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Blackfire Adept, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
**Dragon Disciple, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Mystic Theurge, 1/2 Bab, 10/10 Casting (lost casting due to Pre-Req of 2nd level Divine Casting)
Razmiran Priest, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Riftwarden, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Storm Kindler, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Tattooed Mystic, 1/2 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)
Umbral Court Agent, 3/4 Bab, 7/10 Casting (if 9+ levels are taken)

*Sandman Archetype Bard is the only Arcane Base class that can qualify for Arcane Trickster without multiclassing
**Dragon Disciple requires 1st level Spontaneous Casting as a Pre-Req, but can be used to advance Prepared Casting, in this case add +1 lost Casting.
***Magus is the only Arcane Base class that can qualify for Eldritch Knight without multiclassing.
****Living Monolith only has casting in the People of the Sands reprint of the class.

For a more useful-ish answer: Your best bets for a Gish are
*Eldritch Knight Full Bab, 9/10 casting
*Dragon Disciple 3/4 Bab, 7/10 casting. Bab loss is somewhat made up for by the +4 STR increase AND you still advance Bloodline stuff, but this would require you change the bloodline, or go Crossblooded archetype. 4 levels (1 lost casting) probably wouldn't help you much, and more levels costs your more casting...
*Hellknight Signifier 3/4 Bab Full casting, but comes with flavor baggage, so that might not work
*Arcane Archer Full Bab 7/10 casting, requires a couple 'archery feats' to enter, so probably not ideal
*Variety of 3/4 Bab 9/10 casting PrC's (special note Evangelist would also count 9/10 levels for Sorcerer Bloodline advancement, but has flavor baggage)

Yeah...Eldritch Knight is probably best for your needs.

[tadkins]

TO THE DIPPING GUIDE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230500-Pathfinder-Dipping-for-Fun-and-Profit-%28mostly-Profit%29&p=12613046&viewfull=1#post12613046)!
(or more accurately the 3rd post of said guide, the following section of which has little to do with dipping)


Oooh, sick! Lot of options here. Gonna take a look at each one shortly, thank you. :)

[Florian]

Interesting! I wouldn't be opposed to switching to Wizard. So a Ranger (Guide) 1/Wizard (Water Elementalist)9/EK 10 would work pretty well?

Well, you do have all the Cold and fog based controll spells on your list (Sleet Storm, Cloudkill), as well as the whole slew of Cold based attack spells (Cone of Cold). Your basic School power is a small cold-based blast centered on you, something that can be helpful if you want to enter melee a lot.
Ranger (Guide) is ok, I guess, but 1/day is nothing to write home about. Personally, I'd stick with Fighter and Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch) or somethin similiar that works all day long.

@Dipping Guide:

A bit out of date right now, isn't it? Quite a lot of VMC options leveled the playing field there....

[tadkins]

Ranger (Guide) is ok, I guess, but 1/day is nothing to write home about. Personally, I'd stick with Fighter and Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch) or somethin similiar that works all day long.

It was mostly for flavor, to emphasize the character as a rugged outdoorsman, but I would be open to an alternative. I figured Lore Warden would work well for a wizard.

Can Ranged Touch actually be picked as a weapon focus though? Says a spellcaster can pick rays on the listing here, but nothing specifically about Ranged Touch.

[grarrrg]

@Dipping Guide:

A bit out of date right now, isn't it? Quite a lot of VMC options leveled the playing field there....

It's out of date because I've been too lazy to add in (most of) the ACG Hybrids.

VMC has little to do with it, partly due to a lot of the archetype abilities not being able to be gotten that way, and partly because a lot of the VMC options are just...weak.

[Florian]

It was mostly for flavor, to emphasize the character as a rugged outdoorsman, but I would be open to an alternative. I figured Lore Warden would work well for a wizard.

Can Ranged Touch actually be picked as a weapon focus though? Says a spellcaster can pick rays on the listing here, but nothing specifically about Ranged Touch.

My bad, I actually meant Rays when I wrote ranged touch, as most of your cold-based attack spells fall into this category.
(From Ray of Frost up to Polar Ray)

Something you could try, if you have the patience for it, is going the Kirin Style route, even taking Improved Unarmed Strike as a tax feat into account. The gain, especially Int to damage, will help you offset your BAB troubles on the beginning.

In this case, I'd opt for Fighter (Lore Warden)/Wizard and use VMC Magus as a backup.

*Laughs* Normally, I'm more into stlyle over substance, but in this case. the "Rugged Outdoorsman" thing is something to roleplay, not roll play, as it is ill supported.

[tadkins]

My bad, I actually meant Rays when I wrote ranged touch, as most of your cold-based attack spells fall into this category.
(From Ray of Frost up to Polar Ray)

Something you could try, if you have the patience for it, is going the Kirin Style route, even taking Improved Unarmed Strike as a tax feat into account. The gain, especially Int to damage, will help you offset your BAB troubles on the beginning.

In this case, I'd opt for Fighter (Lore Warden)/Wizard and use VMC Magus as a backup.

*Laughs* Normally, I'm more into stlyle over substance, but in this case. the "Rugged Outdoorsman" thing is something to roleplay, not roll play, as it is ill supported.

Interesting. Never heard of Kirin Style but I like what i'm reading. It's almost like a reverse Knowledge Devotion. xD I will be a Human at any rate, so I might be able to spare the feats.

Thanks for all your help. Got a decent idea of the path I want to take for this character. I've been thinking on it for a while but wasn't quite sure how I could build him, as I don't have a lot of first-hand experience with the game. Though I might be back to ask about certain PrCs in the guide if any really pique my interest.

[Florian]

@grarrg:

No disrespect for your work meant, as that is rock solid.
Where I do disagree is the "weak" part, as that is very build dependent.

@tadkins:

Well, there has been a paradigm change between 3,5 and PF, especially on what a PrC means. Mostly, it's not an increase in power but only a change in direction.

For example, the stuff we're talking about right now, me personally, I'd pick an LN Hellknight Signifier as that suits my taste

[tadkins]

@tadkins:

Well, there has been a paradigm change between 3,5 and PF, especially on what a PrC means. Mostly, it's not an increase in power but only a change in direction.

For example, the stuff we're talking about right now, me personally, I'd pick an LN Hellknight Signifier as that suits my taste

For sure, I know PF greatly emphasizes the "take 20 levels in a class" philosophy. My goal with that class was to take it in a different direction that what it could provide, I just wasn't sure how many directions there were, and which ones are decent.

Hellknights are pretty badass. I can't bring myself to play lawful though. xD

[Florian]

For sure, I know PF greatly emphasizes the "take 20 levels in a class" philosophy. My goal with that class was to take it in a different direction that what it could provide, I just wasn't sure how many directions there were, and which ones are decent.

Hellknights are pretty badass. I can't bring myself to play lawful though. xD

Sorry, was at work while writing it and had to break of in mid-sentence.
My goal was pointing out that the Signifer is interesting to look at because it actually incorporates using armour as an arcane spellcaster and the way that is done can be inspiring, as it points out new way to reallocate your point-buy values.
When I get home, I'll do a quick build and post it here.

[grarrrg]

No disrespect for your work meant, as that is rock solid.
Where I do disagree is the "weak" part, as that is very build dependent.

No disrespect taken.

Just that VMC is not a good replacement for dipping, either because you can't get what you want: no Divine Grace, some of the more useful Oracle Revelations aren't on the "allowed list", Sorcerer Bloodline Arcanas are not granted, etc...

Or what you want/need is given, but at a very slow pace/greatly delayed access: Rogue Sneak attack, Alchemist Mutagen, getting _1_ Oracle revelation at level 3 and not getting a second one until level _15_, Summoner may as well be feats that literally do nothing until level 11.

And the king of slow, weak, and pointless...Gunslinger.
1 level of Gunslinger gets you everything AND MORE than the first 3 "bonuses" of VMC Gunslinger combined.

Yes, there are some good VMC, but for every "VMC Bard" there seem to be 2 "VMC Witch"

[Florian]

@grarrrg:

I would differenciate why you use dipping or VMCing.
With dipping, you want to have a powerful synergetic effect right now. Best example is the Oradin.
VMCing is to fill some hole in your build later on, archieve something that is otherwise not possible or break a certain limit. You still want a powerful synergetic effect, but much later.

Your argument made me smile a bit, because of the heavy focus on the front-loaded options you're talking about, in contrast to the rear echelon options that are otherwise denied to you.

For the sake of argument, let's stick with an Oradin as an reference point: No matter what you do, you reach some hard caps and limits with your basic Oradin, as good as it may be.
VMC Cavalier may be the only way to break your Smite limit, as both stack and the result is brutal.
VMC Fighter may be the only way to advance your AC beyond a certain point, especially for an Oradin.
VMC Cleric may be the only way to truly advance your chanelling ability beyond a certain point.
VMC Sorcerer may be the only reliable way to get an auto-scaling inherent bonus to Str.

And so on. That stuff is not about the start, it's all about the later stages or endgame.

So yes, I do agree that there're VMC options that may appear to be pretty "weak" (Gunslinger, Witch ...) at first glance, but even those are pretty useful at breaking limits later on. Please note that this is not making these options equally viable for every build.

Let's talk about VMC Witch, as that gets misshandled a lot and has a bad rep.
People expect the sheer lockdown power of a witch and don't find that with this VMC, so it gets discounted as useless.
Where its good at, though, is integrating a non-witch into a coven.

*snip* More later after and edit.