Beguiler vs Wizard

[Story]

To continue the discussion from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?459141-Optimization-and-Tiers-The-Tier-System-Expanded/page2


I look forward to my ban for saying this, but this is the text of the feat: "Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time, you must select a different domain available to the same deity you chose the first time you selected the feat."

Sorry I couldn't remember the exact wording offhand. But you still run into the problem of finding a deity that actually has all those domains. It's very rare for a deity to have more than one of the good domains. You certainly couldn't get all the ones you mentioned.



never seen a Wizard who took that feat, but whatever.

I suppose that's a matter of experience. Uncanny Forethought is so useful that the only conditions I can imagine where a B+ Wizard wouldn't take it is if either Exemplars of Evil isn't allowed at the table or they have a specific feat intensive build and can't spare two feats.


I have never seen a Wizard in my life who left more than 2 spell slots open who didn't have either Uncanny Forethought or Alacritious Cognition

Probably because the rule that lets you do it is little known. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea.



Yes, disparity only exists after Beguilers have multiple class features and feats spent vastly expanding their spell list and have easily affordable runestaves to negate advantage. I agree.

At level 4, Orb of Fire really not that great a spell, but we are well past the point where Beguilers can afford runestaves if they want, and could also cast that, though I would personally prefer Burning Blood to Orb of Fire. If I were a Beguiler I would put that and Moon Bolt in a Runestaff. Dimension Door is something that Beguilers have access to so easy that it might as well be on their list. Evard's Black Tentacles is a 3rd level spell on the Blackwater domain, so you can stick that in the runestaff and cast it out of lower level slots. Or you can get the blackwater domain, but honestly, the blackwater domain isn't very good outside of that one spell, where Travel, Cold, and Undeath all are, so I prefer to put EBT in a runestaff as a third level spell, and not cast it at level 6, even though I could.

Okay, you are a Beguiler, you are not an idiot, so you buy a Runestaff that includes Flesh to Ice or Glass Strike depending on your level


Your argument seems to rely heavily on using runestaffs. To be honest, I'm not that familiar with them, but wouldn't that cost a lot of money?

Edit: I looked them up, and runestaffs explicitly require the spell to be on your spell list. Also, runestaffs can be spontaneously used by Wizards just as well, so it seems silly to base your argument of Beguiler superiority on this.

Edit2: Runestaffs also have a 15 minute attunement period, just like the 15 minute prepare spell delay that you disparaged.


Expanding the list of spells you can prepare does very little

Ignoring Uncanny Forethought of course. But even then, it's still useful to have a variety of utility spells. It's really only combat and emergency spells that you need to prepare in advance.


The fact that there exists a readily available prestige class designed to expand the class list of a class that casts off it's class list means that classes that cast off their class list can

I'm not sure what you mean by designed here. Divine Oracle, Comtemplative, etc. were fairly obviously designed for Clerics, and maybe the occasional Wizard or Sorcerer. WOTC didn't really consider non-PHB classes most of the time. It's unlikely that the effect on Beguilers/Dread Necromancers/Warmages even occured to them.


Also, you do know that games below level 20 exist right?

Of course. In fact, I've never even seen a campaign go to level 20. Which is why I've been focusing the discussion on the midlevels.




Anyway, what would it take to build a level 10 Beguiler with similar capabilities to an ordinary Wizard 10 with all PHB spells (ignoring Polymorph and Lesser Planar Binding since they're T2 just by themselves). I'd be curious to see what kind of optimization it takes to match the most generic unoptimized Wizard. Perhaps it would be worth trying with and without custom runestaffs, to see how much of a difference they make too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can make a Use Magic Device check when attuning to a Runestaff to use all of its spells as though they were on your class spell list. Make it an Ancestral Relic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) and you automatically get to determine what spells it contains, you can change what spells it contains, and you'll almost always spend less than half price on it.


Anyway, what would it take to build a level 10 Beguiler with similar capabilities to an ordinary Wizard 10 with all PHB spells (ignoring Polymorph and Lesser Planar Binding since they're T2 just by themselves). I'd be curious to see what kind of optimization it takes to match the most generic unoptimized Wizard. Perhaps it would be worth trying with and without custom runestaffs, to see how much of a difference they make too.

Any spontaneous spellcaster can spend two feats to do what you're asking.

The first is Magical Training in Player's Guide to Faerun, which gives you a few 0-level spell slots and a spellbook with a few 0-level wizard spells. Per the Rules Compendium, anyone who casts arcane spells from a spellbook can add more spells to their book the same way that a wizard does. The wording of how a wizard learns spells implies that the spells your spellbook contains are counted as spells your character knows.

The second is Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. This allows a spontaneous caster to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. This means you can spend two Beguiler spell slots to cast a Wizard spell from that spellbook, and even be able to cast 6th level wizard spells as a 10th level character.

[Story]

Any spontaneous spellcaster can spend two feats to do what you're asking.


The question is, what is the lowest optimization level you can do it at. Custom Ancestral Relic Runestaff is listed as grade S (TO) in bekeleven's thread. Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster isn't listed, but would probably be under TO as well.

[Beheld]

Sorry I couldn't remember the exact wording offhand. But you still run into the problem of finding a deity that actually has all those domains. It's very rare for a deity to have more than one of the good domains. You certainly couldn't get all the ones you mentioned.

Technically you can't get any of the ones I mentioned, because Auril doesn't have the Cold domain on her PhB list, because the Cold Domain wasn't in the PhB. If your DM refuses to let the Kuoa Toa God of Icy Undead grant the cold and undeath domains, I have no idea what to do for you. Get a new DM?


I suppose that's a matter of experience. Uncanny Forethought is so useful that the only conditions I can imagine where a B+ Wizard wouldn't take it is if either Exemplars of Evil isn't allowed at the table or they have a specific feat intensive build and can't spare two feats.

Maybe you are 16? Exemplar's of Evil wasn't even out for seven years of 3e D&D, and then when it came out it didn't sell well. I don't own it, and I don't know anyone who does.


Probably because the rule that lets you do it is little known. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

Everyone knows the rule. We just also know that leaving spell slots open means you have to wait 15 minutes to cast the spell that you knew this morning you would want to cast. This applies to all buffs and all attack spells. Very few utility spells are the only thing it works for at all, and every day you leave a 2nd level slot open for knock or something silly like that and don't use it is terrible. To say nothing of utility spells that are time sensitive like Obscuring Mist.


Your argument seems to rely heavily on using runestaffs. To be honest, I'm not that familiar with them, but wouldn't that cost a lot of money?

Edit: I looked them up, and runestaffs explicitly require the spell to be on your spell list. Also, runestaffs can be spontaneously used by Wizards just as well, so it seems silly to base your argument of Beguiler superiority on this.

1) I mentioned Domains much more than Runestaffs.
2) No, Runestaffs are pretty cheap, since they use your spell slot.
3) It is a DC 21 UMD check to emulate having any class list in the game. Beguilers have UMD as a class skill.
4) I'm not making an argument for Beguiler Superiority. I am pointing out that Beguilers are easier to play at any given optimization level and easier to build at that optimization level than Wizards. Things that people's attempts to design tier systems completely ignore.


I'm not sure what you mean by designed here. Divine Oracle, Comtemplative, etc. were fairly obviously designed for Clerics, and maybe the occasional Wizard or Sorcerer. WOTC didn't really consider non-PHB classes most of the time. It's unlikely that the effect on Beguilers/Dread Necromancers/Warmages even occured to them.

The classes were designed to expand spell access to spontaneous casters, Beguiler is a spontaneous caster who wants to expand his spell access. The driving point here is that it is better for Beguilers to expand spell access than for other classes. It doesn't matter whether or not the designers intended specifically for Beguilers to take these classes, the point is that anyone who takes the Beguiler class is going to immediately come to the realization that they want these classes.


Of course. In fact, I've never even seen a campaign go to level 20. Which is why I've been focusing the discussion on the midlevels.

So why are you complaining about how Rainbow Servant is the most horribly monstrous cheese that has ever existed for having an ability that probably won't even kick in during the course of the game?


Anyway, what would it take to build a level 10 Beguiler with similar capabilities to an ordinary Wizard 10 with all PHB spells (ignoring Polymorph and Lesser Planar Binding since they're T2 just by themselves). I'd be curious to see what kind of optimization it takes to match the most generic unoptimized Wizard. Perhaps it would be worth trying with and without custom runestaffs, to see how much of a difference they make too.

Honestly? Zero work, because Beguiler 10 comes with a built in game breaking cheese you didn't ban: The Beguiler casts Charm Person on every person he meets, then uses Diplomacy to turn that person helpful, then moves on to the next person. After you ban that, then the Beguiler casts Dominate Person over and over on a level 10 Wizard the party incapacitates, or that he incapacitates. Then he carries around a level 10 Wizard buddy all the time, because why not. Ect. 400 years later, after we agree that all minion creation or manipulation is banned for being game breaking, we can move on to the comparison.

Generic +2 Int race Beguiler 5/Divine Oracle 1/Rainbow Servant 4/

Feats: 1) Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion), Arcane Disciple Travel, Arcane Disciple Undeath (obviously you wouldn't really take this because you are banning minions, but I put it here for example sake), and Arcane Disciple Blackwater (retrain for Ocean or Water, something not **** once you are past level 11 when EBT becomes basically useless). Also could arguably take Cold. This is assuming you worship Kuliak, The Dead Goddess, who's portfolio includes water, death, undead, and travel.

You could also Worship Levistus, an Archdemon who wanders aimlessly around Stygai and the Abyss, and take Cold, Travel, and then later on with Contemplative take the Abyss Domain.

So you have Beguiler spells + Oracle, Good, Air, Blackwater, Undeath, and Travel domains on your class list. You get Contemplative next level, so now would be a great time to take the Abyss Domain, or experience the revelation that your god has really been Gluttonous all along, since both of those give you several good Fort or Die effects, and you've already got will and ref covered. Switch Blackwater out for water or ocean, ect.

This character is easily comparable to a Wizard, and it uses the SpC, Complete Divine, and on one build, Stormwrack. Presumably the Wizard is also using the SpC, because he'd have to be a fool not to, and he probably uses at least Complete Arcane and probably other sources for basic non Incantatrix PrCs.

Alternatively the "Cheesy" version which anyone who even remotely had any idea that Exemplar's of Evil even exists would allow (if they weren't neck deep in level 20 and tier worship) would be Beguiler 1/Rainbow Servant Mage 4/Oracle 1/Rainbow Servant Mage 4 Going into Contemplative next level. Worship Thrym for the Cold, Earth, and Travel Domains, because Stone Shape is a no save kill spell. Get Good, Air, Law, and Oracle Domains from classes. Finish off Rainbow Servant then get Gluttony with Contemplative. Have the cleric access too because it is good to be able to spontaneously pull out weird useful spells, even if the Cleric list is objectively less good at attack spells that Wizard and Druid list, and mostly just has great buffs that spontaneous access doesn't really help.

[xyianth]

Any spontaneous spellcaster can spend two feats to do what you're asking.

The first is Magical Training in Player's Guide to Faerun, which gives you a few 0-level spell slots and a spellbook with a few 0-level wizard spells. Per the Rules Compendium, anyone who casts arcane spells from a spellbook can add more spells to their book the same way that a wizard does. The wording of how a wizard learns spells implies that the spells your spellbook contains are counted as spells your character knows.

As was pointed out to me in another thread, the PHB actually defines known spells as any spell an arcane caster learns and can prepare. Unfortunately, this means you can learn and add spells to your spellbook, but unless you can prepare them in spell slots you don't actually 'know' them. The only exceptions to this are classes that have an explicitly defined 'known spells' mechanic.

[Zanos]

I'd rather not dig through the bowels of that thread to get the center of this. Can anyone briefly summarize what could possibly bring a fixed list spontaneous caster up to the power level of a prepared caster? The only thing I can think of is Rainbow Servant, but that applies to all classes that cast spontaneously and know their entire spell list, not just beguiler.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'd rather not dig through the bowels of that thread to get the center of this. Can anyone briefly summarize what could possibly bring a fixed list spontaneous caster up to the power level of a prepared caster? The only thing I can think of is Rainbow Servant, but that applies to all classes that cast spontaneously and know their entire spell list, not just beguiler.

For all fixed list casters anything that expands your list improves their strength. Expand the list enough and they begin to become indistinguishable from higher tier casters. Rainbow Servant is notable because it grants a massive, virtually cost free, enhancement to your spell list.

[nyjastul69]

There is no way that a Beguiler is close to a Wizard in terms of potential. PrC's might change the potential of each class, but of course we are no longer talking about the same classes. Wizards outclass Beguilers by a tremendous amount.

[Beheld]

There is no way that a Beguiler is close to a Wizard in terms of potential.

Yes they are in exactly the same place. Because both of them can buy a Candle of Invocation. So both of their potentials is "completely break the game in half and go crying into the night." That isn't useful. My point is that ranking classes on "potential" is a waste of time, and that a meaningful system of organization would address how hard or easy it is to play a class at a given power level, and how hard or easy it is to build a class to a given power level.


PrC's might change the potential of each class, but of course we are no longer talking about the same classes.

Spells might change the potential of each class, but of course we are no longer talking about the same classes! Oh wait, the reason people want to exclude Beguilers from using PrCs is because Beguiler benefit substantially more than Wizards from some kinds of PrCs because their class feature (knowing their entire spell list and casting spontaneously from it) allows them to gain more benefit from a level of contemplative.


Wizards outclass Beguilers by a tremendous amount.

I have no idea what you mean by this statement. A Wizard and a Beguiler in a game will both play at the same level, because one of them will cast spontaneously off a larger list of spells including many good save or die, strong buffs, and utility effects that the other will never prepare, and the other will prepare spells each day from a smaller list of more specifically chosen as great spells, and therefore in general will have slightly better spells, but without the ability to spontaneously cast them. That is what will happen in any game at any optimization level. If your DM allows the Wizard to pick the best spells and PrCs and Abrupt Jaunt around, then your DM will allow the Beguiler to expand their spell list with the many options they have. If you DM allows incantatrix, then your DM will allow Shadowcraft Mage. And maybe Incantatrix is "better" than Shadowcraft Mage, but who cares because they will both contribute to encounters by brutally stomping on opposition.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Beheld, your argument seems to be "if a beguiler dedicates the majority of his build resources to expanding his spell list, he's just as powerful and more flexible than a wizard who does NOT dedicate build resources to spontaneous casting," correct?

I'll give you the first part, but it's not exactly a fair trade. Honestly, it sounds a lot like "build>class," which is a thing we all acknowledge as true. But if you're in a contest of any sort, you have to let both sides compete. And in this case, it means the wizard has Uncanny Forethought, Alacritous Cogitation, Spontaneous Divination, picks incredibly versatile spells (Polymorph, high-level summons, etc) and/or leaves slots open. (Because, you know, the player isn't a 34 Int genius and doesn't know what utility spells he'll need to cast today. Heck, in a lot of games you'll have enough downtime between fights that you'll be able to leave most of your slots open and fill them as the day goes on). Plus scrolls and runestaffs, which he has better access to since he can craft them himself. And don't cry about obscure sources, because runestaffs aren't exactly in a prominent place either, and you're going dumpster-diving for exactly the right deity.

And the second part might very well not be true at all, because the wizard can use those same resources on things like Incantrix and Anima Mage.

[dascarletm]

What is the metric by which we are measuring both classes?

Is it by which class fills the role:
Rogue-like arcane character?
Master of the arcane?
Something else?

Because, it matters. If you want to judge the classes on something more meaningful than which is best, which one fills the intended role better/easier?

I'd say if you are trying to make the beguiler a wider scope than it is, it is probably easier to accomplish that goal by just being a wizard.

If we are asking who fills the role the beguiler was designed for, then I'd say beguiler. Part of doing that shtick is flexibility, and the beguiler's casting mechanic out of the box is better for that. In general full list spontaneity is the strongest of the 4 casting mechanics (not including psions, truenamers, shadowcasters, etc.).

[Troacctid]

For all fixed list casters anything that expands your list improves their strength. Expand the list enough and they begin to become indistinguishable from higher tier casters. Rainbow Servant is notable because it grants a massive, virtually cost free, enhancement to your spell list.

And of course Ultimate Magus, AKA "Why not both?"

[ryu]

Beheld, your argument seems to be "if a beguiler dedicates the majority of his build resources to expanding his spell list, he's just as powerful and more flexible than a wizard who does NOT dedicate build resources to spontaneous casting," correct?

I'll give you the first part, but it's not exactly a fair trade. Honestly, it sounds a lot like "build>class," which is a thing we all acknowledge as true. But if you're in a contest of any sort, you have to let both sides compete. And in this case, it means the wizard has Uncanny Forethought, Alacritous Cogitation, Spontaneous Divination, picks incredibly versatile spells (Polymorph, high-level summons, etc) and/or leaves slots open. (Because, you know, the player isn't a 34 Int genius and doesn't know what utility spells he'll need to cast today. Heck, in a lot of games you'll have enough downtime between fights that you'll be able to leave most of your slots open and fill them as the day goes on). Plus scrolls and runestaffs, which he has better access to since he can craft them himself. And don't cry about obscure sources, because runestaffs aren't exactly in a prominent place either, and you're going dumpster-diving for exactly the right deity.

And the second part might very well not be true at all, because the wizard can use those same resources on things like Incantrix and Anima Mage.

Or just take spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. The former gets you qualified for the latter at which point You're terrifying. Bonus points if you picked domain wizard. Stupid things happen if you combine those things.

[DEMON]

Or just take spontaneous divination and versatile spellcaster. The former gets you qualified for the latter at which point You're terrifying.

Holy Balor's death throes! Am I understanding this correctly? Would you suddenly be able to cast any spell in your spellbook by sacrificing 2 prepared spells of 1 level lower?

Is this perfectly RAW?

[ryu]

Holy Balor's death throes! Am I understanding this correctly? Would you suddenly be able to cast any spell in your spellbook by sacrificing 2 prepared spells of 1 level lower?

Is this perfectly RAW?

Yawp. Versatility is fun isn't it?

[Troacctid]

Holy Balor's death throes! Am I understanding this correctly? Would you suddenly be able to cast any spell in your spellbook by sacrificing 2 prepared spells of 1 level lower?

Is this perfectly RAW?

What the feat actually says is "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." Other than that, you do need to follow the normal rules for spellcasting for your class. There's some room for interpretation, and a few potential dysfunctions--talk to your DM.

[Story]

Generic +2 Int race Beguiler 5/Divine Oracle 1/Rainbow Servant 4/

Feats: 1) Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion), Arcane Disciple Travel, Arcane Disciple Undeath (obviously you wouldn't really take this because you are banning minions, but I put it here for example sake), and Arcane Disciple Blackwater (retrain for Ocean or Water, something not **** once you are past level 11 when EBT becomes basically useless). Also could arguably take Cold. This is assuming you worship Kuliak, The Dead Goddess, who's portfolio includes water, death, undead, and travel.

You could also Worship Levistus, an Archdemon who wanders aimlessly around Stygai and the Abyss, and take Cold, Travel, and then later on with Contemplative take the Abyss Domain.

So you have Beguiler spells + Oracle, Good, Air, Blackwater, Undeath, and Travel domains on your class list. You get Contemplative next level, so now would be a great time to take the Abyss Domain, or experience the revelation that your god has really been Gluttonous all along, since both of those give you several good Fort or Die effects, and you've already got will and ref covered. Switch Blackwater out for water or ocean, ect.


Ok, so you've used two PRCs and all four feats. Time to see how it compares to the completely unomptimized Wizard's spells

Level 4 spells

Dimensional Anchor - ???
Remove Curse - ???
Black Tentacles - gotten at lvl3 via Blackwater
Dimension Door - Travel Domain
Solid Fog - Beguiler
Summon Monster IV - ???
Arcane Eye - ???
Locate Create - Beguiler
Scrying - Oracle domain
Charm Monster - Beguiler
Lesser Geas - ???
Resilient Sphere - ???
Greater Invisibility - Beguiler
Illusory Wall - ???
Shadow Conjuration - ???
Animate Dead - gotten at lvl3 via Undeath
Bestow Curse - ???
Ennervation - ???
Mneommic Enhancer - N/A
Polymorph - ???, may be banned
Stone Shape - ???


I was going to go through the level 5 spells in the PHB, but given the disparity just in the level 4 spells, I don't think there's any point. A Beguiler with a build dedicated to expanding its spell list still hits only half the useful PHB spells that the most unoptimized Wizard gets for free. And that isn't even every spell in the PHB. I only listed the ones that sounded useful to save time and make the comparison more useful.

Meanwhile, which spells does the Beguiler have that the Wizard doesn't? I don't see any notable ones on the Beguiler list. The only ones it has as the domain spells, which the Wizard could get just as easily by taking the same feats/PRCs.

Note that this is comparing an optimized Beguiler to a completely unoptimized Wizard straight out of the PHB. The only thing a Wizard has to do to get access to those spells is not specialize in a school.

[Troacctid]

Meanwhile, which spells does the Beguiler have that the Wizard doesn't?

Glibness would be the main one.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meanwhile, which spells does the Beguiler have that the Wizard doesn't? I don't see any notable ones on the Beguiler list. The only ones it has as the domain spells, which the Wizard could get just as easily by taking the same feats/PRCs.
His argument-- I think-- is that the Beguiler's advantage on within-the-day options* is ultimately superior to the Wizard's advantage on day-to-day options.

*Whether or not it actually exists; it probably doesn't.

[Beheld]

I was going to go through the level 5 spells in the PHB, but given the disparity just in the level 4 spells, I don't think there's any point. A Beguiler with a build dedicated to expanding its spell list still hits only half the useful PHB spells that the most unoptimized Wizard gets for free. And that isn't even every spell in the PHB. I only listed the ones that sounded useful to save time and make the comparison more useful.

1) You don't get those for free, you get four for free, but whatever.
2) Of the spells that you listed with question marks, many of them aren't very good. Stone Shape (which Beguiler could also get with my other build), Enervation, Resilient Sphere, and Dimension Anchor are the only ones I see. Also, just FYI, Beguiler's do get advanced learning too, so they could very well end up with Shadow Conjuration or something to that effect next level, though I personally wouldn't. In particular, listing Mnemonic Enhancer as a spell that anyone wastes their time preparing is a bit of a joke.
3) Most importantly, you can completely failed to understand the concept of the spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casting is a good thing. If the Beguiler and the Wizard have the same exact list, then the Beguiler is winning, because he is objectively superior if they have the same spell list. For them to be equal, the Wizard objectively must have better spells, because he doesn't cast spontaneously from his entire list. A Wizard could spend 4 levels of PrCs getting the Air Domain, but Control Wind, while a great spell that the Wizard generally wishes was on his spell list, he gets less out of the ability to prepare it than the Beguiler gets out of the ability to cast it either 6 or zero times a day as is most appropriate.


Meanwhile, which spells does the Beguiler have that the Wizard doesn't? I don't see any notable ones on the Beguiler list. The only ones it has as the domain spells, which the Wizard could get just as easily by taking the same feats/PRCs.

1) Wizards don't spend 4 levels getting the Air domain, because even if control winds is better than any other ref save or lose they could get, they aren't going to want to invest in Rainbow Servant, since the domains and the capstone are not worth very much for them, because most of the spells are good spells to cast spontaneously, and bad spells to prepare. (And the capstone does basically nothing for them).
2) Divination, Freedom of Movement, Glibness are some key points, but again, the main point is that if they cast the same spells, the Beguiler is winning. Any round the Wizard casts the same spell as the Beguiler, the Wizard is objectively losing the comparison that round, so if the Wizard didn't have access to some spells that the Beguiler doesn't, that would be a problem.

[Beheld]

His argument-- I think-- is that the Beguiler's advantage on within-the-day options* is ultimately superior to the Wizard's advantage on day-to-day options.

Could you please stop lying about what I've said. It would be really great if you didn't need to lie about my position every single time you post.

[Troacctid]

1) Wizards don't spend 4 levels getting the Air domain, because even if control winds is better than any other ref save or lose they could get, they aren't going to want to invest in Rainbow Servant, since the domains and the capstone are not worth very much for them, because most of the spells are good spells to cast spontaneously, and bad spells to prepare. (And the capstone does basically nothing for them).
2) Divination, Freedom of Movement, Glibness are some key points, but again, the main point is that if they cast the same spells, the Beguiler is winning. Any round the Wizard casts the same spell as the Beguiler, the Wizard is objectively losing the comparison that round, so if the Wizard didn't have access to some spells that the Beguiler doesn't, that would be a problem.

Point of correction, Domain Wizards get Control Winds for free, and all Wizards have Freedom of Movement via Heart of Water (and not only is it at a lower spell level, it's also a swift action).

[Beheld]

Point of correction, Domain Wizards get Control Winds for free, and all Wizards have Freedom of Movement via Heart of Water (and not only is it at a lower spell level, it's also a swift action).

Domain Wizards get lots of things that Wizards don't get. So what? And Heart of water lasts 10 round instead of 600 and is personal only. Heart of Water isn't a terrible spell, but to ignore the obvious superiority of FoM in granting the FoM effect. . .

[stanprollyright]

Beguilers are strictly superior to Wizards at low levels. More spells/day, better casting mechanic, more skills, more health, and can wear armor. At higher levels the Wizard has a way better spell list and a more versatile casting mechanic and is thus strictly superior to a Beguiler. Why is this even an argument?

[ryu]

Domain Wizards get lots of things that Wizards don't get. So what? And Heart of water lasts 10 round instead of 600 and is personal only. Heart of Water isn't a terrible spell, but to ignore the obvious superiority of FoM in granting the FoM effect. . .

All domain wizards are wizards. In much the same way all specifically brown dogs are still within the greater dog group. If you play with domains you don't get to call superiority when your opponent gets them too and for cheaper at that. As a matter of fact the domain wizard can also be an elven generalist if he so chooses.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Could you please stop lying about what I've said. It would be really great if you didn't need to lie about my position every single time you post.
Then apparently you aren't being as clear as you think you are, because I'm honestly trying to understand your argument as generously as I can.

[Beheld]

Then apparently you aren't being as clear as you think you are, because I'm honestly trying to understand your argument as generously as I can.

You aren't even basing your opinion of my argument of anything I said at any point. Point to a single place I ever said that the Beguiler is a better or stronger class than the Wizard.

[Story]

I guess one of the differences is tactical flexibility vs strategic flexibility.

Tactical flexibility is a bit of a tossup. Wizards have more options available but will only have a limited number at any given time at low levels and may not have the right one prepared. Depending on the style of play, the skill of the player, build and luck, Wizards might sometimes get caught with their pants down, especially at low levels (at high levels you get enough spell slots that it doesn't matter, even with no optimization).

On the other hand, with strategic flexibility (i.e. a timescale of days or weeks), Wizards win hands down. They can prepare for anything if necessary without changing their build, and if there is anything that needs to be done, they can go out and learn a spell to do it.