PDA

View Full Version : [Rules, D&D] Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Acceptable?



DreadArchon
2007-05-31, 08:25 PM
Unearthed Arcana has a Sorcerer variant called "Battle Sorcerer" that gives them a better combat presence in return for one fewer spell known and one fewer spell per day (to all entries above 1 on either table).

Complete Mage has a Sorcerer variant called "Stalwart Sorcerer" that gives them some nice things in return for one fewer spell known at their highest spell level, minimum 1.

A Battle Sorcerer never has more than one Spell Known at his highest spell level. They can be Stalwart for free.

Seeking opinions on:
(1) Is this legal?
(2) Is this balanced?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-31, 08:36 PM
(Essentially) d8+2 HD, 3/4 BAB, proficiency with two martial weapons, weapon focus with one, and the losses from both do balance out rather nicely. It's a good mix, particularly if you grab the Metamagic Specialist variant from the PHB-II.

Fizban
2007-05-31, 10:07 PM
The stalwart sorcerer spell known loss migrates down a level if you can't lose that highest one, at least the way I had read them together. I'm away from most of my stuff at the moment, but essentially the way the stalwart is worded, if you only have one spell known at your highest level, it migrates down to the next highest, so you're not getting it for free at all. If you allowed stalwart to apply first maybe, but since you're combining two variants that are meant to do (mostly) the same thing, I'm pretty sure most DM's would make you stack it in the less favorable way. You are getting the equivalent of a d12 HD along with spellcasting and a 3/4 BAB.

Astaroth
2007-05-31, 11:18 PM
Shrug, like most rules exploits it depends whether or not your DM cares or not. This is the kinda stuff that's allowed on an MMORPG, sure, but most DMs have a little more interest in the game than that. Even if it's specifically stated to be valid by the RAW, it's kind of a game-breaker allowing that kind of precedent - with variants, traits, even flaws there's always a downside to go along with the upside. That downside might not apply to your character often, but it's always supposed to be there numerically. In this case, you're trying to nullify it by a clever interpretation, which any self-respecting DM wouldn't allow.

DreadArchon
2007-06-01, 09:50 AM
In this case, you're trying to nullify it by a clever interpretation, which any self-respecting DM wouldn't allow.
I wasn't really going for "clever interpretation." I was just statting out a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer/Swiftblade and I noticed that the I wasn't losing anything from the Stalwart side.

Fizban
2007-06-01, 10:29 AM
Except that you should be, unless you're reading it wrong. I'm 90% sure of this, but am once again away from my stuff. When I get home I will triple check and post the relevant bits of text.

Yes, I like correcting people.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 10:48 AM
Honestly, it helps the Sorcerer alittle, but not enough to actually make it game-breaking. I'd allow it, as a DM. It'd definitely helps Sorcerer stack up to the Clerics/Wizards in my games.

DreadArchon
2007-06-01, 01:05 PM
Honestly, it helps the Sorcerer alittle, but not enough to actually make it game-breaking. I'd allow it, as a DM. It'd definitely helps Sorcerer stack up to the Clerics/Wizards in my games.
That's kinda what I was thinking. Someone on the WotC boards suggested that being a Sorcerer who actually prestiges worse than the base sorcerer is bad enough in and of itself.

Still, the "something for nothing" part is why I question it. (Despite that you're basically getting something for nothing by replacing your familiar or by taking a prestige class with full spell progression, but that's not what I'm here about.)

Fizban: Well, I posted here to see if anyone would correct me, so thanks. :smalltongue:

Fizban
2007-06-01, 01:20 PM
Familiar is a legitamate class ability, albeit a difficult one to use effectively. Trading it for something else is a trade, there are plenty of things for example, that a familiar can do that one can't do with the metamagic specialist variant can't do. Especially when you add spells like imbue familiar with spell ability, and exploit the share spells ability correctly.

Prestige classing does cost you your familiar progression, but actually the "something for nothing" aspect is a problem with the PrC's, not the sorcerer. Since the main class ability of a full spellcaster is their spells, logically if you want an effective cost for a PrC, they must lose some spells. Most (but not all) of the more recent spellcasting PrC's do cost a level or two of spellcasting, meaning that they actually do have a cost.

That may not be what you're here about, but they are much better examples of the something for nothing idea. With either variant the sorcerer is gaining something while losing something at least equally significant (generally more so), which is how it should be.

I feel long winded today.

DreadArchon
2007-06-01, 02:32 PM
Familiar is a legitamate class ability...
Yeah--once per year, and you have to pay XP for it.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-06-01, 02:35 PM
Indeed. Normally a familiar is an XP drain waiting to happen.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-01, 03:12 PM
So, on average, you're a sorceror with a D12 HD, and with 2 martial weapons and a weapon focus, but you cast spells per day as a specialized wizard, and have your spell choices lowered by about 15%?

Spells known are each worth a feat. EACH. Improved toughness is worth a feat.

Hmm. Sounds fine to me.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-01, 03:34 PM
If I were the GM, here's how I would rule this:

Each of Stalwart and Battle reduce number of spells known per level by 1, minimum one. So, the number of spells known per level is reduced by 2, minimum 1. This means You don't get a second 1st level spell known until level 5, you don't get a second 2nd level spell until 9th, and you NEVER get a 2nd 5th+ level spell known. Ever.

So basically, you're a marginally more survivable version of a Bard without the skills or flavor or music.

Arbitrarity
2007-06-01, 03:42 PM
Uhhh... Shneeky. You made stalwart give MORE of a nerf than it already does.

You only lose one spell known of YOUR HIGHEST LEVEL spells.

Therefore, rework that a bit.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-01, 04:18 PM
Unearthed Arcana has a Sorcerer variant called "Battle Sorcerer" that gives them a better combat presence in return for one fewer spell known and one fewer spell per day (to all entries above 1 on either table).

Complete Mage has a Sorcerer variant called "Stalwart Sorcerer" that gives them some nice things in return for one fewer spell known at their highest spell level, minimum 1.

A Battle Sorcerer never has more than one Spell Known at his highest spell level. They can be Stalwart for free.

Seeking opinions on:
(1) Is this legal?
(2) Is this balanced?



IMO mechanically the sorcerer is a very specialized specialist caster with limited known spells and delayed spellcating.

IMO it is legal and balanced and really nice for lower level games.

Some combination of D6, 4 SPs, Diplomacy and Eschew Materials are generally the most common home fixes to the class you read on the message boards.

The variant Stalwart Battle Sorcerer is only averaging 6.5 hit points a level.

Another sorcerer bone you might consider is granting the sorcerer class is one of the UA Domains as known spells. The spells are useful but not optimized game breaking spells.

Insist that Battle Sorcerers take the Battle Domain which would both strengthen and weaken the build as it would force taking a so so Battle Domain spell leveling up and balancing out the Stalwart Sorcerer benefits for a level.

Dausuul
2007-06-01, 04:37 PM
Unearthed Arcana has a Sorcerer variant called "Battle Sorcerer" that gives them a better combat presence in return for one fewer spell known and one fewer spell per day (to all entries above 1 on either table).

Complete Mage has a Sorcerer variant called "Stalwart Sorcerer" that gives them some nice things in return for one fewer spell known at their highest spell level, minimum 1.

A Battle Sorcerer never has more than one Spell Known at his highest spell level. They can be Stalwart for free.

Not strictly true. At level 20, normal sorcerors know three 9th-level spells, and battle sorcerors know two, so a stalwart battle sorceror would only know 1.

But, for all levels below 20, yeah, it's free. And since people practically never play to 20th, what happens at 20th is more or less irrelevant.

DreadArchon
2007-06-01, 04:43 PM
IMO it is legal and balanced and really nice for lower level games.
That's what I was thinking, I just wanted a few different viewpoints.

As for making Sorcerers more appealing: What about School Specialization? Two schools banned VS one additional spell per day and one additional spell known per entry, of them in the Sorc's chosen school. It might be too good, and I don't feel like thinking it through enough to actually implement it, it's just one thing that occured to me.

Dausuul
2007-06-01, 04:53 PM
That's what I was thinking, I just wanted a few different viewpoints.

As for making Sorcerers more appealing: What about School Specialization? Two schools banned VS one additional spell per day and one additional spell known per entry, of them in the Sorc's chosen school. It might be too good, and I don't feel like thinking it through enough to actually implement it, it's just one thing that occured to me.

I would leap at that chance instantly, which makes me think it's probably too powerful.

Remember, the fact that sorcs are weaker than wizards does not mean sorcs are underpowered. It means wizards are overpowered. Compared to the non-caster classes, sorcerors are quite strong.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-06-01, 06:19 PM
Adding one of the Hypertext/UA Domains wizard variants isn't unbalancing IMO particularly at levels 10 and under as the spells are already fixed and chosen.

An extra somewhat useful themed known spell at to known spells depending on the situation. They are generally average spells vice optimized.

If you had 10 spells of level 0 to 9 to choose from for known spells most of the themed domain spells wouldn't make the cut to your limited known spell list.

For a Battle Sorcerer you could make it a requirement to take the Battle domain:

0 - Daze, 1 - True strike, 2 - Protection from arrows, 3 Greater magic weapon, 4 - Fireshield, 5 - Bigby's interposing hand, 6 - Tenser's transformation, 7 - Power word blind, 8 - Moment of Prescience, 9 -Timestop.

Moment of Prescience and Timestop are nice but most campaigns are generally low level (Below level 10 according to a recent thread survey here on the boards).

So True strike is nice for when you absolutely need to hit and damage something leveling up to 4th.

The Antimagic, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy and Transmutation domains are nicer for general utility IMO.

The Fire and Storm domains are a nice way for fueling a Reserve Feat leveling up.

Fizban
2007-06-02, 01:20 AM
When you would gain a second spell known from a higher spell level, apply this penalty to the new level but remove it from the lower level

This means that it essentially migrates up, replacing your highest extra spell known after the first as soon as possible, but until then it stays on the lower level, meaning you still pay a price for it.

And, looking at the stalwart sorcerer entry, I remember why it should be applied after the battle sorcerer: it's an alternative class feature that may be taken by a sorcerer. The battle sorcerer variant is a whole class variant, considered a separate class (though you can't multiclass between it and sorcerer), whereas the stalwart sorcerer is an alternate class feature allowing the sorcerer to trade spells known for hp and weapon proficiencies. Since a battle sorcerer is still a sorcerer (logically speaking), then one should be able to take the alternate class feature. But that feature is applied after the effect of the battle sorcerer variant on the base class.

I'll write up a table if someone really wants me to.

Edit: for extra comments

Adding one of the Hypertext/UA Domains wizard variants isn't unbalancing IMO particularly at levels 10 and under as the spells are already fixed and chosen.

That's the jist of the dragon magazine bloodline feats, a whole "domain" worth of spells around a theme with a slight restriction on other spells known and usually a CL boost within a specific spell descriptor. It's also some of the balancing factor in the dragon pacts from Dragon Magic. I like the idea, but the less than optimal spells in the progressions annoy me, even though changing them would make them too powerful by undermining the main balancing point.

DreadArchon
2007-06-02, 10:55 AM
This means that it essentially migrates up, replacing your highest extra spell known after the first as soon as possible, but until then it stays on the lower level, meaning you still pay a price for it.
Whoa, hey, good call. Obvious, too, don't know why I didn't notice it. :smallredface:

Not that it matters for my Swiftblade, of course, as he can use only Haste for spell slots 3+ and do just fine. :smallbiggrin:

(Not to say that he won't also still be using his few token known spells from higher levels, of course...)