Player wants options for a tier 3 Alchemist -- with a non-magical feel

[Talionis]

I've got a player that is going to be playing in a Tier 3 campaign and he wants a non-magical feel alchemist (not Full Metal Alchemist), but someone that uses Poison and Alchemy in traps and weapons without any real magic feel. Am I going to have to refluff a magical class to get that feel?

Most of Alchemy feels useful for a few levels and quickly gets outpaced by magic especially in a tier 3 campaign. Any one have any ideas or suggestions.

I know there is Alchemical Swords and Arrows but the added damage isn't very much. Does anyone have a way to make a class like Combat Trapsmith playable in a tier 3 campaign?

[Flickerdart]

"Flask rogue" (a rogue that throws flasks to get sneak attack with them) is a decent way to go.

An artificer going into alchemist savant could work - he is never actually casting spells, just brewing potions and "spellvials" (offensive potions that can be thrown).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pathfinder has the Alchemist and Investigator, both of which are very solid and fun classes. Their alchemy is pretty much like spellcasting, but has enough differences to feel fresh and different. (If you want something REALLY different, I did a 3.5e rewrite that gives them a daily crafting reserve for potions up to 7th or 5th spells. If you're interested, I can dig up the link when I'm not on my phone).

Otherwise... Runesmith does a pretty decent job if you cross out "rune" and replace it with "potion."

[Talionis]

Alchemist Savant and Runesmith were both good suggestions, what base caster class would you suggest? We threw out the tier 1&2 classes like Cleric, Archivist,mWizard, Sorcerer, and Artificer.

[Flickerdart]

You could let warlock qualify for alchemist savant - Imbue Item would make him really good at crafting all sorts of potions.

[ben-zayb]

If Factotum and Chameleon don't feel magical enough for you, a Factotum 8 / X 2 / Chameleon 10 is also pretty versatile in making brews (as well as on many other things).

[Troacctid]

Pathfinder Alchemist is very good for this if you're willing to port it.

[xyianth]

The main problem alchemists and flask rogues have in 3.5 is the cost associated with running alchemy as your primary abilities. Refluffing a caster helps fix this by granting daily potions/flasks for free. When each action you take in combat effectively costs you 50+gp, you are going to be broke really fast.

In my custom non-magic E6 setting I made an alchemist class with the following setup:

Alchemist
Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 4+Int


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Ingredient Capacity


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Sprayer Use, Improvised Alchemy, Gather Ingredients
3


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Unconventional Wisdom
4


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Adjustable Nozzle
5


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Complex Alchemy
6


5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Improved Sprayer Use
7


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Shaped Discharge
8


Skill list: Concentration, Craft(any), Decipher Script, Heal, Knowledge(any, taken individually), Profession(any), Search, Survival


Proficiencies: all simple weapons, light armor, no shields

Sprayer Use(Ex): Sprayers are considered exotic weapons for you and you gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency(sprayer) as a bonus feat. You may load a sprayer with any splash weapon you have as a move-equivalent action. You are considered armed while wielding a sprayer, but you can not make attacks of opportunity with one. Firing a sprayer in melee combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Improvised Alchemy(Ex): As a swift action, you may use a set of alchemical ingredients to create an improvised version of any alchemical substance you desire. You attempt an Craft(alchemy) check against the substance's standard DC. If successful, your improvised version is effective for 1 minute, at which point it breaks down and becomes useless. While effective, it is treated in all ways as the normal alchemical substance. You can not sell improvised alchemical substances. Using this ability provokes an attack of opportunity.

Gather Ingredients(Ex): You can spend 1 minute to search an area for useful ingredients for use with your improvised alchemy ability. Make a DC 15 Survival check and a DC 20 Knowledge(nature) check as part of this action. If you succeed on the Survival check, you are able to acquire 1d4 alchemical ingredients. If you succeed on the knowledge(nature) check, you gain an additional 1d4 alchemical ingredients. You can not exceed your maximum capacity of ingredients with this ability. You can only attempt this ability once per area. (The DM determines what constitutes an area for purposes of this ability, the recommendation is to allow use of this ability once after each encounter.)

Unconventional Wisdom(Ex): You can add both your Wisdom modifier and your Intelligence modifier as a bonus to all skills that rely on Wisdom or Intelligence as their key ability.

Adjustable Nozzle(Ex): You can adjust the nozzle on your sprayer to create different dispersal patterns. If you set the sprayer to cone shape, the sprayer emits a cone instead of a line, but all targets are treated as being hit by a splash hit only. If you set the sprayer to concentrated burst, it fires a single blob at a target within twice its normal range and requires a successful ranged touch attack to hit the target. If the concentrated burst hits, the target receives the full effect of a direct hit with the splash weapon and receives no save against its effects.

Complex Alchemy(Ex): You can add your Intelligence modifier to the DC of any alchemical substance you create. This applies to any improvised substance you make as well.

Improved Sprayer Use(Ex): Your sprayer has a range of 15' instead of 10', you now threaten a range of 5' while wielding a sprayer, and you can load a sprayer as a free action.

Shaped Discharge(Ex): You can control the discharge of your sprayer to adapt to changing situations on the battlefield. When using your sprayer to create a line shaped discharge, all creatures in adjacent squares to the line receive a splash hit from the weapon. When using the cone shaped discharge, you can select any two targeted creatures to receive the effects of a direct hit instead of a splash hit. You can also choose any one targeted creature to be immune to your splash weapon regardless of the shape of your discharge.

It should also be noted that the Heal skill provided a 1/hour/target method of healing hp in this setting. This class was meant to fill in the roles of healer and battlefield control in the non-magic setting. I don't know if this is at all helpful to you, but feel free to use (or ignore) it however you like. I'm also the author of this 5e homebrew alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409214-Alchemist-Potent-Potables-and-Other-Avenues-of-Medieval-Science). It might provide additional inspiration for whatever you want your alchemist to be able to do.

[Talionis]

I'm absolutely going to have to do something to offset the cost. I just accept that. I'm worried that past like eighth level the character might lag if its main stich is throwing alchemical potions.

I found the Grenadier and Mad Bomber tactical feat in PHB2, Mad Bomber can actually be a stronger counterspeller .

I'm just worried about the Rogue that way, but maybe I'm wrong?

Factotum is a real thought. It's so little magic that it maybe perfect, just nough to make the items. I could let Alchemist Savant advance most of Factotums abilities...

[Grod_The_Giant]

You can also dip into Trapsmith for some wildly under-leveled spells to make into potions. For cost, though... Crafting Reserve, Artificer-style. Just have it cover gold as well.

[GoldfishBowl]

I'm worried that past like eighth level the character might lag if its main stich is throwing alchemical potions.

Pathfinder handles this by allowing Alchemists to add their Int mod to splash weapon damage. Once they suss out a way to make use of iterative attacks (Vial tipped arrows and the standard bow line, the 'Fast Bombs' discovery, etc) their damage becomes quite solid, especially against two or more.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has the Alchemist and Investigator, both of which are very solid and fun classes. Their alchemy is pretty much like spellcasting, but has enough differences to feel fresh and different. (If you want something REALLY different, I did a 3.5e rewrite that gives them a daily crafting reserve for potions up to 7th or 5th spells. If you're interested, I can dig up the link when I'm not on my phone).


Pathfinder Alchemist is very good for this if you're willing to port it.

Seconding PF Alchemist. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) If the extracts are still too magical for you (they are basically spells, with some restrictions), you could always swap out that class feature for additional skills and a sneak attack progression or something.