Tier 1 Classes made Tier 3, Smaller Casters lose Magic?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I think we all know of the issues of Casters VS Martial Classes and the inherent power imbalance.

However simply doing something such as banning Tier 1's removes so much from player options.
So one thing I considered is alter the classes.

Reduce their Spells per day, Reduce Max Spell Level.
But maybe give them buffs in some areas like BAB, Hit Die, An extra class ability?

What are ideas you people have for making Tier 1 Classes become closer to Tier 3?
Meanwhile, for lower casting Classes like Ranger, Paladin and Bard, what do you think suitable replaces for them would be instead of spells?

[Grod_The_Giant]

INCREASE spells per day for anything without a medium BAB and reduce them to a 6 level progression. (Or, you know, replace them altogether with the Warpriest/Hunter/Magus/Alchemist). That's probably the only reasonable way to do it without massive rewrites. You don't want to just decrease spells pretty day- that doesn't make them any less broken, it just makes them less fun and hurts non-optimal builds.

[Gwazi Magnum]

INCREASE spells per day for anything without a medium BAB and reduce them to a 6 level progression. (Or, you know, replace them altogether with the Warpriest/Hunter/Magus/Alchemist). That's probably the only reasonable way to do it without massive rewrites. You don't want to just decrease spells pretty day- that doesn't make them any less broken, it just makes them less fun and hurts non-optimal builds.

Increase? That's something I hadn't considered.
But it does make sense as to why. Once you removed the higher spells the frequency doesn't really matter.

Do you think something like this would work?

All Tier 1 and 2 Classes can only unlock up to Spell Level 6, and unlock the Spell Levels are the following levels.



Spell Level
1
2
3
4
5
6


Caster Level
1
4
7
10
13
16



However they gain +1 Spells per day for each spell level if Tier 1, +2 is Tier 2.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The spell levels are fine; spells/day... You want the character to be able to last as long as everyone else in the party. Most of the existing 6th level casters are gishy; they can buff up and beat face for a while without too much trouble. Clerics and Druids can do the same; if anything, you might give them one fewer spells/day to differentiate them more from the Warpriest and Hunter. But a wizard can't really do that, outside certain builds. He can't do anything but cast, so he needs a few more spells/day so he can keep going. That's why I specified "BAB" instead of tier.

[JyP]

What are ideas you people have for making Tier 1 Classes become closer to Tier 3?
Meanwhile, for lower casting Classes like Ranger, Paladin and Bard, what do you think suitable replaces for them would be instead of spells?
Nerfing spell capacity : we have rules saying that each spell takes (level) pages in a spellbook. I would extend by saying you need (level)x5 minutes to prepare it - instead of a blanket one hour for all spells each morning. One hour = 12 levels worth of spells memorized. Magic would be more ritualized this way.

Weird XPs : spellcasters should not gain XP by mundane means (read : battles) - they should do esoteric quests to do so. T1 quests should be harder than T3 quests : becoming a cleric of a Deity or a druid is not so easy. So you can advance in T1 classes - but this needs a lot more of work.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Nerfing spell capacity : we have rules saying that each spell takes (level) pages in a spellbook. I would extend by saying you need (level)x5 minutes to prepare it - instead of a blanket one hour for all spells each morning. One hour = 12 levels worth of spells memorized. Magic would be more ritualized this way.

Weird XPs : spellcasters should not gain XP by mundane means (read : battles) - they should do esoteric quests to do so. T1 quests should be harder than T3 quests : becoming a cleric of a Deity or a druid is not so easy. So you can advance in T1 classes - but this needs a lot more of work.
See my Law: Making a thing annoying to use does not make it balanced. It just makes it broken AND unfun.

Your technique also fails the "who's most affected" test- lower op players (ex, blasters) suffer more than high op (ex, Polymorph and Planar Binding abuse). And it doesn't even help with party dynamics, since now the group's quests have to center around the wizard.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The spell levels are fine; spells/day... You want the character to be able to last as long as everyone else in the party. Most of the existing 6th level casters are gishy; they can buff up and beat face for a while without too much trouble. Clerics and Druids can do the same; if anything, you might give them one fewer spells/day to differentiate them more from the Warpriest and Hunter. But a wizard can't really do that, outside certain builds. He can't do anything but cast, so he needs a few more spells/day so he can keep going. That's why I specified "BAB" instead of tier.

So basically only the Arcane one's get the buff because they lack other stuff like weapons or wildshape to back them up with?

[Grod_The_Giant]

So basically I only the Arcane one's get the buff because they lack other stuff like weapons or wildshape to back them up with?
Yep! You could also give them better bloodline/school stuff instead, so they had another pool of stuff to fall back on.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Yep! You could also give them better bloodline/school stuff instead, so they had another pool of stuff to fall back on.

You mean like two different Bloodlines?

[GreyBlack]

I think we all know of the issues of Casters VS Martial Classes and the inherent power imbalance.

However simply doing something such as banning Tier 1's removes so much from player options.
So one thing I considered is alter the classes.

Reduce their Spells per day, Reduce Max Spell Level.
But maybe give them buffs in some areas like BAB, Hit Die, An extra class ability?

What are ideas you people have for making Tier 1 Classes become closer to Tier 3?
Meanwhile, for lower casting Classes like Ranger, Paladin and Bard, what do you think suitable replaces for them would be instead of spells?

Easiest nerf in my opinion? Implement a Power Points system on all casters. You can only spend as many power points on any given spell equal to your caster level. Increasing a spell's efficacy beyond the base effectiveness costs a given amount of power points (e.g. the level 3 spell fireball deals 5d6 damage for 5 pp, but you can add 1d6 damage for each 1pp you spend beyond 5). This creates a twofold situation. First, it requires the casters to track a resource to cast spells, making it potentially more difficult to cast (this is in addition to memorizing spells/day). Secondly, it creates a situation where casters need to make choices about what spells they cast. Do they blow pp on that big damage spell? Or do they hold it for later?

[Steven]

You mean like two different Bloodlines?

Or re-write the bloodline/school abilities to not suck.
One thing that springs to mind is for those bloodlines that grow claws for some amount of time: Give them an increase to hit, damage, and CMB so they can actually gish properly.
Or make the acid dart type abilities actually scale somewhat so they're not useless past the first couple of levels.

[Bucky]

Paladins are fairly straighforward; they already have Lay on Hands and Mercies for utility. You can replace a lot of their beneficial spellcasting by giving paladins access to all the Mercies for their level and adding important spell effects (Lesser Restoration, Protection from Evil, Bull's Strength) as options, and similarly allow adding level appropriate AoE effects (e.g. Prayer) to their Channel Energy.

[Troacctid]

Play the game at lower levels and the casters will naturally fall down to T3 without you having to change anything.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Easiest nerf in my opinion? Implement a Power Points system on all casters. You can only spend as many power points on any given spell equal to your caster level. Increasing a spell's efficacy beyond the base effectiveness costs a given amount of power points (e.g. the level 3 spell fireball deals 5d6 damage for 5 pp, but you can add 1d6 damage for each 1pp you spend beyond 5). This creates a twofold situation. First, it requires the casters to track a resource to cast spells, making it potentially more difficult to cast (this is in addition to memorizing spells/day). Secondly, it creates a situation where casters need to make choices about what spells they cast. Do they blow pp on that big damage spell? Or do they hold it for later?
So... You have to spend 10 points to do 10d6 with a fireball, but only 5 to cast Stinking Cloud and save-or-lose everyone in the room?

[Selion]

It's just an idea, i haven't tried it...
There are rules for spell duels in pathfinder, in which a spellcaster has a free counterspells check per round. If you home rule that counterspells are immediate actions, that don't need to be readied, in battles spellcasters will cast a spell every few rounds, but their presence would be necessary to counter enemy spells.

[Psyren]

Play the game at lower levels and the casters will naturally fall down to T3 without you having to change anything.

Indeed - this is basically the idea behind E6.

[GreyBlack]

So... You have to spend 10 points to do 10d6 with a fireball, but only 5 to cast Stinking Cloud and save-or-lose everyone in the room?

Absolutely. But, if you want it to last longer than 1 round, you're going to have to burn more points, say 2 points per round?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Absolutely. But, if you want it to last longer than 1 round, you're going to have to burn more points, say 2 points per round?
So I can no longer buff my allies without burning through my points in a big hurry? At best, this sounds like a spells/day nerf. At worst... I guess a spells/day nerf that hurts blasting even more than normal, and adds extra pain to buffing as well.

[GreyBlack]

So I can no longer buff my allies without burning through my points in a big hurry? At best, this sounds like a spells/day nerf. At worst... I guess a spells/day nerf that hurts blasting even more than normal, and adds extra pain to buffing as well.

Yes and no? The problem for spellcasters, as I understand it, is their ability to do ANYTHING given 24 hours notice, especially seeing as their spells scale without burning resources and only get more ridiculous from there. At first level, they have a spell that gives them, for 1 hour per level, a +4 bonus to their AC. Glitterdust blinds people and makes it impossible to hide for 1 round/level, all of these without burning any additional resources. To my mind, the easiest way to balance a spellcaster is to take away that scaling, or at least give them a resource to burn if they want to make their spells scale with level. So, rather than glitterdust making it impossible to hide for 1 round/level, it becomes 1 round, plus an additional round if you want to burn some extra resources. Black Tentacles can hold someone in place, but not for the entire fight. Want to control the board for an extra round? It's gonna cost you. Hence my suggestion of adding the power points system on top of the spells/day system. It forces players to choose if they want their spell to scale, or if they just need it for the round.

[Tvtyrant]

I would remove the really good spells, and then split the casters up into themes. We already have the Warmage, Summoner, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Make a Creation specialist and a buff based Transmuter and you are golden.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I would remove the really good spells, and then split the casters up into themes. We already have the Warmage, Summoner, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Make a Creation specialist and a buff based Transmuter and you are golden.

Basically, divide Wizard's into using strictly one school of magic?
I can see this working pretty well actually.

Though we'd also need a list of which really good spells to remove.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So, I went back and edited the above mentioned homebrew with the new advice.
What do people think of this?

All Tier 1 Classes can only unlock up to Spell Level 6, and unlock the Spell Levels are the following levels.



Spell Level
1
2
3
4
5
6


Caster Level
1
4
7
10
13
16



All Tier 2 Classes are no longer available for player selection, however all Tier 1 Classes can now cast spells spontaneously, and no longer need to prepare spells in advance. If the Tier 1 Class is an Arcane Caster they gain +2 Spells per day for each spell level. Lastly, all Tier 1 Classes upon creation must pick a specific school of magic. These are the only spells that Class is able to learn.

Any Tier 3 or lower Class no longer has Spellcasting, but instead gains a bonus feat whenever they would have gained a new Spell Level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Basically, divide Wizard's into using strictly one school of magic?
I can see this working pretty well actually.
It really does. By far the best approach. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317861-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-(3-5)



All Tier 2 Classes are no longer available for player selection, however all Tier 1 Classes can now cast spells spontaneously, and no longer need to prepare spells in advance. If the Tier 1 Class is an Arcane Caster they gain +2 Spells per day for each spell level. Lastly, all Tier 1 Classes upon creation must pick a specific school of magic. These are the only spells that Class is able to learn.
The latter part is unnecessarily harsh; the former is just unnecessary. 6th level spells are fine as they are, but an enormous list of spells known isn't.


Any Tier 3 or lower Class no longer has Spellcasting, but instead gains a bonus feat whenever they would have gained a new Spell Level.
Did you just throw out all of the best classes? I think you did. Magus is useless; Bard, Hunter and Warpriest are neutered to oblivion, and Alchemist and Investigator survive as T4, most likely, as do the Paladin and Ranger.

Just stick to 6th level casting. The Ranger can use the Skirmisher archetype if you don't want him to cast, but you'll probably want to homebrew something similar for the Paladin.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The latter part is unnecessarily harsh; the former is just unnecessary. 6th level spells are fine as they are, but an enormous list of spells known isn't.

That latter part is exactly what you just suggested yourself though, limiting them to one school.
The former (assuming you mean the T2's) is because they would have functionally little purpose if the others were spontaneous. And that switch was made so a caster limited to one school can still adapt to situations.


Did you just throw out all of the best classes? I think you did. Magus is useless; Bard, Hunter and Warpriest are neutered to oblivion, and Alchemist and Investigator survive as T4, most likely, as do the Paladin and Ranger.

Bard & Hunter have enough other feature's on them they should be fine.
Same for Alchemist and Investigator, though admittedly on those two I forgot how much Extracts were treated like spells, so I didn't think to count them.

Warpriest and Magus though I can see how that get's in the way.

Though so many of these classes also go up to 6th level, if we were to make T1's and T2's only go up to level 6 then they got nothing over these other classes.