Red cloak will caste the deciding vote!

[Phoniex]

Ok complete speculation here but I think Red Cloak will show up as the high priest of the dark one to caste a vote. Team evil can teleport in at will, and the rules of the moot and large number of high level clerics will keep Xykon from just destroying the place. So one of two things will happen.

1) the Dwarf that is still to vote will die before he gets a chance to vote. Then red cloak will vote to keep this world.

2)The dwarf that is still to vote will vote to destroy the world. Then red cloak will vote to keep this world. Meaning a tie and no one does anything.


Anyone else agree with my analysis?

[ellindsey]

The Dark One is not a member of the Northern Pantheon, and is therefore ineligible to vote at this meeting.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

What ellindsey said, though I suppose it's not completely impossible that he could be a tiebreaker if the entire northern pantheon, demigods included, were deadlocked. Still, rather out there.

Also, given that the Dark One is perfectly willing to risk the destruction of the world for The Plan, I would have put him down as voting Yes (remember, Redcloak would have absolutely zero influence on how his god votes).

[Peelee]

Why would Xykon care? The Dark One would vote to destroy, and that actively runs against Xykon's plans of ruling the world.

[Talion]

On the one hand, it would be interesting to see Red Cloak here, considering how little most of the other gods think of the Dark One, as well as how little the party has regarded Red Cloak himself. However, from what we know, that would probably do some pretty bad things to the plot. However, now that you bring it up...

It's also possible, albeit unlikely, that they could be going for the big cheese himself: Xykon. His patience might be on the short side of things at the moment, but the last thing he needs is 'Blue Pommel' to waltz into him at the last gate...with a dozen or more high level clerics in tow. Snuffing out a few of them would ultimately be in his interest, which would 1) be a huge kick in the teeth to Roy and 2) make the battle for the next gate even more urgent.

[War-Wren]

Looks like you're on your own there, Phoenix :smalltongue:

But seriously though, Redcloak and Team Evil are at the Gate, starting the ritual. THe last time we saw them they were teleporting straight there. Redcloak's focus is completing his God's plan.

The Dark One is a Pantheon of one, apparently, and he has not been invited... or even if he was, he has declined to send his High Priest (because he has more important things to do!).

The Dark One may be aware of the vote, but at the end of the day he is a God. Worst case scenario is that he will have to start again if the Gods unravel the world. And if Team Evil manage succeed before the world is unravelled, then the Dark One can control the Snarl and use it as a weapon against the Gods.

Redcloak ain't coming to this party.

[ChillerInstinct]

Would the Dark One vote to destroy the world under THESE circumstances, though? We know that he's willing to hold all of creation hostage to get concessions for Goblinkind. Would he have any leverage trying to convince The Queen Of The Northern Pantheon to get those concessions? I get the feeling that Hel wouldn't care about them any more than she cares about anyone other than the dwarf souls she's due to pick up.

It'd basically throw him back to Square One, and he'd need another goblin that he could use to accomplish his goals, since Redcloak would be dead.

Even then, though, The Dark One is, appropriately enough, in the dark about all of this, as are Redcloak and Xykon. Would they intervene if they had power to? Probably, but I don't think they can.

[Peelee]

Would the Dark One vote to destroy the world under THESE circumstances, though? We know that he's willing to hold all of creation hostage to get concessions for Goblinkind. Would he have any leverage trying to convince The Queen Of The Northern Pantheon to get those concessions? I get the feeling that Hel wouldn't care about them any more than she cares about anyone other than the dwarf souls she's due to pick up.

It'd basically throw him back to Square One, and he'd need another goblin that he could use to accomplish his goals, since Redcloak would be dead.

Even then, though, The Dark One is, appropriately enough, in the dark about all of this, as are Redcloak and Xykon. Would they intervene if they had power to? Probably, but I don't think they can.

....yes.

He wants to go back to square one. The blackmail plan is to enact goblin justice in this world. The potential unleashing the Snarl who destroys creation is acceptable because then he takes part in building the new world, thus enacting goblin justice in that one. If the gods destroy this world, he still has a hand in creating the new one, and still gets his wish.

[Roland Itiative]

Would the Dark One vote to destroy the world under THESE circumstances, though? We know that he's willing to hold all of creation hostage to get concessions for Goblinkind. Would he have any leverage trying to convince The Queen Of The Northern Pantheon to get those concessions? I get the feeling that Hel wouldn't care about them any more than she cares about anyone other than the dwarf souls she's due to pick up.

It'd basically throw him back to Square One, and he'd need another goblin that he could use to accomplish his goals, since Redcloak would be dead.

Even then, though, The Dark One is, appropriately enough, in the dark about all of this, as are Redcloak and Xykon. Would they intervene if they had power to? Probably, but I don't think they can.
One would presume that not even the newly-empowered Hel would dare break the rules all gods agreed to in regards to how the world is created, as to avoid making a new Snarl by having conflicting concepts clash. So, the Dark One would still get his turn at creation so he could give goblinoids a decent role in the new world, regardless of whether Odin or Hel commands the Northern Pantheon at that time. His plan B still sounds perfectly reasonable.

And he could probably even get some extra concessions by negotiating his vote with Hel and trading it for power in the new world.

I do not believe it will come down to the Dark One to break this tie, but if it did, we just can't guess what he would vote for, he stands to gain something from both outcomes. One would give him more power, but is uncertain to work, the other would gave him a level playing field, with no chance of failure. Would he favour power or certainty?

[Phoniex]

The Dark One is not a member of the Northern Pantheon, and is therefore ineligible to vote at this meeting.

How do you know that?

[Peelee]

I do not believe it will come down to the Dark One to break this tie, but if it did, we just can't guess what he would vote for, he stands to gain something from both outcomes. One would give him more power, but is uncertain to work, the other would gave him a level playing field, with no chance of failure. Would he favour power or certainty?

Actually, he would gain more power from the certain outcome; all goblins would immediately go to him, instead of trickling in over time.

So really, there'd be no reason for him to vote no at all; there is no downside whatsoever to voting to destroy the world, and voting to keep has a significant chance that the goblin justice will never come to pass.

How do you know that?
Deity aura color. His does not match any of the three pantheons.

[War-Wren]

How do you know that?

I believe it is hinted at in Start of Darkness. Redcloak describes the Dark One as a pantheon of one. I haven't got the book, but I have seen other Playgrounders mention it several times.

Edit:


Deity aura color. His does not match any of the three pantheons.

And that too :smallsmile:

[EmperorSarda]

Also in Start of Darkness when The Dark One asks about the rift, it is the pantheon of Southern Gods who tell him what it is.

[137beth]

Also in Start of Darkness when The Dark One asks about the rift, it is the pantheon of Southern Gods who tell him what it is.

Which would indicated that if he were to get a vote, it would be as part of the Southern pantheon, in the same way the elven pantheon votes as part of the western pantheon.

[Onyavar]

Also in Start of Darkness when The Dark One asks about the rift, it is the pantheon of Southern Gods who tell him what it is.

Actually...
It's the Evil Gods who told him. Tiamat, Rat and Loki were the ones who negotiated with him, and while Rat was the one who supposedly started talking, the Dark One is part of neither pantheon. As others pointed out, his IME/aura is purple, not blue/red/yellow. Makes me wonder if the Elven Gods might have a green aura.

I give it a high probability that Redcloak isn't even aware of the Godsmoot. If he is, he isn't invited, so he would take an existential risk if he shows up - only invited people and their bodyguards are protected by the moot laws. Even the stone creed wasn't covered. If Redcloak even were invited, then he still had more important things to do (a certain ritual!) If Redcloak were invited and would show up, the Dark One's vote would not count, because see above.

Also, the Dark One is probably a full God, not a demi. But I'm not sure if that's just his own propaganda.

[Talion]

Actually...a thought occurs:

With what we know from Start of Darkness, the Dark One was granted authority over the fates of goblin-kind, such as they are.

Through Jirx (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) we know this includes their respective afterlife.

If Hel's scheme is even remotely plausible...just how powerful might the Dark One become with the sudden invigoration of all goblin life on the planet, granted to him and him alone?

Unless quality of soul plays a factor, the other pantheons may very well be in for a nasty shock if they undo the world. :smalleek:

Although...that leaves me wondering what the Dark One would have meant by "Don't screw this up" if the above is a possibility. Perhaps he is/was unaware of such tactics? Or perhaps it would require something repugnant, like spending the souls?

[Psyren]

Actually...a thought occurs:

With what we know from Start of Darkness, the Dark One was granted authority over the fates of goblin-kind, such as they are.

Through Jirx (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) we know this includes their respective afterlife.

If Hel's scheme is even remotely plausible...just how powerful might the Dark One become with the sudden invigoration of all goblin life on the planet, granted to him and him alone?

Unless quality of soul plays a factor, the other pantheons may very well be in for a nasty shock if they undo the world. :smalleek:

Although...that leaves me wondering what the Dark One would have meant by "Don't screw this up" if the above is a possibility. Perhaps he is/was unaware of such tactics? Or perhaps it would require something repugnant, like spending the souls?

He already owns all their souls though (i.e. they're destined to go to him and nobody else.) If that ownership meant anything power-wise, I think he would have already done something with it.

Hel's situation is different - she'd get so much more powerful because she'd be taking resources that are currently "earmarked" for all the other dwarven gods, like Odin and Thor. As an analogy, if you nuked every northern undead on the planet I doubt she would get any form of increase.

[Quebbster]

Actually...
It's the Evil Gods who told him. Tiamat, Rat and Loki were the ones who negotiated with him, and while Rat was the one who supposedly started talking, the Dark One is part of neither pantheon. As others pointed out, his IME/aura is purple, not blue/red/yellow. Makes me wonder if the Elven Gods might have a green aura.
Wasn't green the color of the Eastern Gods' auras? Maybe the elves have orange auras if they aren't just red like the other Western gods...

[Onyavar]

Wasn't green the color of the Eastern Gods' auras? Maybe the elves have orange auras if they aren't just red like the other Western gods...

Sure, you're right. We haven't seen the Elven Gods so far, right?

[Killer Angel]

Actually...
It's the Evil Gods who told him. Tiamat, Rat and Loki were the ones who negotiated with him, and while Rat was the one who supposedly started talking, the Dark One is part of neither pantheon. As others pointed out, his IME/aura is purple, not blue/red/yellow. Makes me wonder if the Elven Gods might have a green aura.

I give it a high probability that Redcloak isn't even aware of the Godsmoot.

Yeah, I believe that too.
But I wonder if the Evil Gods know about it. They should, it's not that the various pantheons can decide about the fate of the world without involving all the deities.

[Keltest]

Yeah, I believe that too.
But I wonder if the Evil Gods know about it. They should, it's not that the various pantheons can decide about the fate of the world without involving all the deities.

Evil gods like, say, Loki or Hel? :smallconfused:

[Phoniex]

I still do not understand how a GOD.. the dark one. Does not know about all the other gods voting on whether or not to destroy the world. Now yes the dark one might not be of a specific pantheon that has representation. But I still do not understand why people believe that the dark one wont notice, be told, or whatever that a godsmoot is happening and all the OTHER gods get a vote.. but him. And its for a little thing called the world.. something that he seems to have an interest in. And if he knows it then so does red cloak.. What would be really funny is if the dwarf was actually red cloak with a shape change or something up:)

[Lord Stoneheart]

I still do not understand how a GOD.. the dark one. Does not know about all the other gods voting on whether or not to destroy the world. Now yes the dark one might not be of a specific pantheon that has representation. But I still do not understand why people believe that the dark one wont notice, be told, or whatever that a godsmoot is happening and all the OTHER gods get a vote.. but him. And its for a little thing called the world.. something that he seems to have an interest in. And if he knows it then so does red cloak.. What would be really funny is if the dwarf was actually red cloak with a shape change or something up:)

When it comes down to it, The Dark One is in a pantheon all by himself. Even if he knows every other god out there is voting on the fate of the world, he's not part of any of the three established pantheons. (This is shown by his deity aura being violet, as opposed to yellow, red, or blue. Meaning he doesn't get a say in any of their decisions. It's as simple as that.)

Besides he's a full god instead of a demigod. And even if Redcloak was polymorphed into a dwarf somehow so The Dark One could reveal himself and vote through Redcloak... what would that accomplish? The Northern Gods could just ignore him because he's not part of the Northern Pantheon. Why would there be any reason for them to consider The Dark One's vote? It would make as much a difference to them as Elan writing "Meow" on a ballot and handing it to Mr. Scruffy to try and get a not guilty verdict for the Order.

[littlebum2002]

So let me get your logic straight:

Xykon was impatient enough not to let Redcloak take a few minutes or so to defeat the enemies which have been attacking him for years, but he's gonna let him run off to a cleric pajama party to go cast a vote?

Yes, I really see that as a plausible thing that could happen

[hroþila]

So let me get your logic straight:

Xykon was impatient enough not to let Redcloak take a few minutes or so to defeat the enemies which have been attacking him for years, but he's gonna let him run off to a cleric pajama party to go cast a vote?

Yes, I really see that as a plausible thing that could happen
Xykon can't go on indefinitely doing the opposite of what Redcloak wants just to spite him and reassess his authority over him after the Tsukiko incident (or, well, he could, but that'd be a terrible idea), so it would be perfectly understandable if he already got that petty need to put Redcloak in his place out of his system at Girard's gate and would therefore be more willing to listen to his right hand goblin and main advisor the next time he said something crucially important to the Plan.

[Killer Angel]

Evil gods like, say, Loki or Hel? :smallconfused:

No, I was thinking to Tiamat and the other elder Gods "allied" with the Dark One, as seen in SoD

[Phoniex]

When it comes down to it, The Dark One is in a pantheon all by himself. Even if he knows every other god out there is voting on the fate of the world, he's not part of any of the three established pantheons. (This is shown by his deity aura being violet, as opposed to yellow, red, or blue. Meaning he doesn't get a say in any of their decisions. It's as simple as that.)

Besides he's a full god instead of a demigod. And even if Redcloak was polymorphed into a dwarf somehow so The Dark One could reveal himself and vote through Redcloak... what would that accomplish? The Northern Gods could just ignore him because he's not part of the Northern Pantheon. Why would there be any reason for them to consider The Dark One's vote? It would make as much a difference to them as Elan writing "Meow" on a ballot and handing it to Mr. Scruffy to try and get a not guilty verdict for the Order.

What I'm saying is that I don't get why a "full god" does not get a vote because "he is in a pantheon by himself". When you were reading the OOTS god law constitution, what amendment was it that shut out the dark one from all votes? Was it the amendment against violet, and that color being seen as wrong and not god like therefore not deserving of the respect that all other gods get?

[EmperorSarda]

What I'm saying is that I don't get why a "full god" does not get a vote because "he is in a pantheon by himself". When you were reading the OOTS god law constitution, what amendment was it that shut out the dark one from all votes? Was it the amendment against violet, and that color being seen as wrong and not god like therefore not deserving of the respect that all other gods get?

He doesn't get a vote because he is not part of the Northern Pantheon. Plain and simple. Each other God's color scheme has shown their pantheon. And it is not the color that matters, but which pantheon The Dark One may or may not belong to.

It's how the Elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon. They probably only get one vote as a whole, instead of each getting a vote.

[littlebum2002]

Xykon can't go on indefinitely doing the opposite of what Redcloak wants just to spite him and reassess his authority over him after the Tsukiko incident (or, well, he could, but that'd be a terrible idea), so it would be perfectly understandable if he already got that petty need to put Redcloak in his place out of his system at Girard's gate and would therefore be more willing to listen to his right hand goblin and main advisor the next time he said something crucially important to the Plan.

But he didn't just ignore Redcloak because he wanted to show his authority over him; he also WAS in a rush. And that hasn't changed.

I mean, we've seen the same comics, maybe you have a different interpretation of the characters than I do, but I haven't seen any bit of Xkon's personality that would let Redcloak take a trip to go cast a vote somewhere while they're in the middle of trying to conquer the world.


What I'm saying is that I don't get why a "full god" does not get a vote because "he is in a pantheon by himself". When you were reading the OOTS god law constitution, what amendment was it that shut out the dark one from all votes? Was it the amendment against violet, and that color being seen as wrong and not god like therefore not deserving of the respect that all other gods get?

As seen in SoD, the other deities don't like the Dark One. Since they made the rules, why would they allow him a vote?

He's not in the northern pantheon, and we know the gods don't like him enough to extend to him the PRIVILEGE of voting, so no, he's not voting.

(Even if he DID vote, he would have voted in the Southern Pantheon, so this idea is pretty thoroughly busted)

[KorvinStarmast]

What I'm saying is that I don't get why a "full god" does not get a vote because "he is in a pantheon by himself". When you were reading the OOTS god law constitution, what amendment was it that shut out the dark one from all votes? Was it the amendment against violet, and that color being seen as wrong and not god like therefore not deserving of the respect that all other gods get?The other two pantheons have already voted, and they tied. The third pantheon, of which The Dark One is not a member, has the tie breaking vote in the macro sense. What pantheon "the dark one" is a member of is interesting speculation, but since he is NOT in the Northern one, no vote in that conclave.

[Porthos]

What I'm saying is that I don't get why a "full god" does not get a vote because "he is in a pantheon by himself". When you were reading the OOTS god law constitution, what amendment was it that shut out the dark one from all votes? Was it the amendment against violet, and that color being seen as wrong and not god like therefore not deserving of the respect that all other gods get?

A couple of points here.

Well, three.

First off, the Dark One wasn't around when the World 2.0 was created, so any so called god laws about who gets a say in their votes that you just created might not apply to him .

Second, the Elven gods got representation with the Western version of the Godsmoot because they're on good terms with them. Well that and they still worship some of the Western Gods, apparently. The Dark One, on the other hand, really doesn't seem to be on good terms with the Northern Pantheon as a whole.

Third, your implied point about fairness would have a point.... if fairness actually entered into the equation here at all. One of the main sticking points regarding the plight of goblins in OotS is, well, unfairness. That the Dark One has decided to resort to extreme means to combat this unfairness is also one of the main sticking points.

Perhaps if the Dark One wasn't in the middle of a scheme to harness the Snarl and blackmail the rest of the gods, he might be on better terms with one pantheon or another and get representation that way. But he is and thus he isn't.

Mind you, he'd be around for any creation of World 3.0. And you better believe he's going to make sure his voice would be heard then (lest Snarl 2.0 gets created). 'till then he seems to be content to be the outsider while his own plans come to fruition.

[Lord Stoneheart]

What I'm saying is that I don't get why a "full god" does not get a vote because "he is in a pantheon by himself". When you were reading the OOTS god law constitution, what amendment was it that shut out the dark one from all votes? Was it the amendment against violet, and that color being seen as wrong and not god like therefore not deserving of the respect that all other gods get?

He doesn't get a vote because he's not in one of the three pantheons. It's in Article XI, Amendment VI. :smalltongue:

On a more serious note, the theory you've been putting forth is a little far fetched. We've seen the one remaining demigod priest. He's the bearded dwarf with the crown symbol on his hat in panel 1 of comic 1012. Whatever demigod he's a high priest of, it's not The Dark One.

You asserted that he could be Redcloak shapechanged into a dwarf. (Note, Shapechange is a 9th level arcane spell. I don't think Redcloak is getting access to it as a cleric. I'm going to assume you meant a more general polymorph spell). I personally can't see the sense in that. First, I'm not aware of any cleric spells that can polymorph a goblin into a dwarf. Or of any clerical illusions that can do the same. (Though if anyone can correct me on that feel free to). Second, why would Redcloak need to be disguised if the Dark One was allowed a vote? It's not like he's forbidden from being there for being one of the monster races judging by the High Priest of Fenrir's presence. Third, why would Xykon allow Redcloak to come to the Godsmoot anyway? Last we saw them, they were teleporting to the front door of Kraagor's gate. Xykon's top priority is securing the gate. Whatever they've done offscreen, has been done to further that plan. Even if Redcloak was suddenly commanded by the Dark One to attend the Northern Godsmoot (Despite The Dark One not being in the Northern Pantheon) he would probably have to betray Xykon openly to do so. (And in any case, if he were allowed to vote the Dark One would probably vote Yes, because his plan B if the hold the gods hostage trick didn't work was to let the world get destroyed to keep the Snarl in, and then he would have a hand in creating the next world. And we can probably assume that Yes isn't going to win in the end. Because then the comic would be over with a "Everyone dies" ending). Finally, even assuming that you're completely correct about the dwarf dude being a polymorphed Redcloak, who pulled a Summon Proxy out to let the Dark One vote... why would the Northern Gods even care about what he says? He's not in the northern pantheon, and he's mostly worshipped in the south too! As I said, his vote would mean as much as Elan voting not guilty via slip that says "Meow"

[DavidBV]

That plan doesn't sound like the kind that would make HPoH gloat about it, even look forward to it, as he just stated. It is complicated, risky, and I don't see why it'd bring HPoH any personal satisfaction.

On the other hand, murdering the remaining priest would be against the rules, and may invalidate the whole vote for all I know (unless it was done by the priest's own bodyguard, heh)

[Sesharan]

I was just doing some rereading, and I came across comic 137, where Banjo asks to join the Northern Pantheon, and I had this thread fresh in my mind. So now I'm wondering: Could The Dark One become part of the Northern Pantheon during the process of voting? Could Odin instate him (or whatever) in order to keep Hel from winning the vote? I don't know if that's something The Dark One would want, but it seems like the kind of thing that might induce him to show up if he did.

[littlebum2002]

I was just doing some rereading, and I came across comic 137, where Banjo asks to join the Northern Pantheon, and I had this thread fresh in my mind. So now I'm wondering: Could The Dark One become part of the Northern Pantheon during the process of voting? Could Odin instate him (or whatever) in order to keep Hel from winning the vote? I don't know if that's something The Dark One would want, but it seems like the kind of thing that might induce him to show up if he did.

Why? The vast majority of the goblinoidd live in the South. So why would he join the Northern pantheon?

[Sesharan]

Why? The vast majority of the goblinoidd live in the South. So why would he join the Northern pantheon?

To be accepted as part of a pantheon and gain the benefits that involves when they wouldn't let him do so before? To put them in his debt? To save the world so he can take control of the Snarl? Who knows. My point was simply that there may have been a mechanism foreshadowed that would allow The Dark One to swing the vote.

[Quebbster]

I would assume the rules of the Godsmoot prevents the admittance of new gods for the duration of the moot to prevent such vote manipulation.

[Phoniex]

I would assume the rules of the Godsmoot prevents the admittance of new gods for the duration of the moot to prevent such vote manipulation.


That's the point im trying to make.. where in the comic does it say that you have to be in X pantheon to get a vote? Everyone is assuming the dark one is SOL. And the reason seems to be that his background color is violet therefore X, Y, Z and no godsmoot rules apply to him. Hey as far as im aware there is no D&D rules about where, how, and when gods vote in their "parliament". Can it be that the dark one knows nothing about the godsmoot because none of the other gods told him and he has no godly powers that might alert him to it going on or happening in any way: Sure.. but I have seen nothing in the comic that says that and no clues to why that "is the way of the godsmoot". Can the dark one be denied a vote by the other gods? Sure he can, but they can do the same thing to thor too right? If the reason why the other gods is denying the dark one a vote is that they can or they want to.. that's fine. But unless all the other gods just hate violet there does not seem to be a IN comic reason for the dark one to not have a vote. I mean I would love for someone to link me to a comic where the other gods are talking behind the dark one's back and plotting to destroy the universe without him... with a "no dark ones" sign on their clubhouse.. but I have no seen that comic yet.

[Quebbster]

I'm mostly assuming that having Redcloak pop up out of nowhere and say "hey, the Dark One gets a vote too!" would make a fairly weak story, therefore it won't happen.
I could easily be wrong, Rich has managed to surprise us before.

[Keltest]

But unless all the other gods just hate violet there does not seem to be a IN comic reason for the dark one to not have a vote.

You mean besides the fact that he is the one causing the crisis in the first place? With a couple of exceptions, the gods didn't like him even before he came up with The Plan.

[Aasimar]

The Dark One does not get a vote.

Would people please stop pitching that idea? It makes no sense and is not going to happen.

He's not part of the Northern Pantheon, and this is the northern pantheon voting.

Unfair as it may be that he gets no say, that unfairness is at the crux of why he's got this whole crazy gate-scheme going in the first place.

He wants to force the other gods to acknowledge him, to give him an equal say and to use that influence to give his people's a fair shake in the world.

If he were already part of the pantheon and allowed an equal say, this wouldn't be a problem.

So even if he did pop in, the Gods would probably attack on sight. They definitely wouldn't let him vote.

[littlebum2002]

To be accepted as part of a pantheon and gain the benefits that involves when they wouldn't let him do so before? To put them in his debt? To save the world so he can take control of the Snarl? Who knows. My point was simply that there may have been a mechanism foreshadowed that would allow The Dark One to swing the vote.

If the gobloinoids lived in the North, you would be correct.

But they don't. They live in the South.

"A deity of a bunch of creatures that live in the South will suddenly join the Northern pantheon" isn't foreshadowing, because it doesn't make any sense. In order to have proper foreshadowing, you need a good logical chain from the previous events to the present. Like Elan contacting Julio: the hints were given, then it played out. Same with the dragon. But there is no logical chain to describe how a SOUTHERN deity would join the NORTHERN pantheon. If Rich wanted the Dark One to save the day, he would have had the final moot take place in the South. Or have the goblins come from the north.

[Vinsfeld]

Even if the Dark One was part of the Northern pantheon, I don't think Redcloak would mind going to the godsmoot, because he doesn't know what is being voted.

The voting subject was only said at the start of the godsmoot, so I don't think Redcloak knows what is going on there (or even know that the voting would be this close). So he has no reason to go there.

[Peelee]

If Rich wanted the Dark One to save the day

I'd just like to say I still don't understand why this is an argument being made. It goes directly against his stated goal (as stated by Redcloak). I have yet to hear a single convincing reason whatsoever that the Dark One would vote to not destroy the world.

I know you are not making the argument, littlebum, but you offered the best quick-and-easy quote from which to springboard into my rant.

[littlebum2002]

I'd just like to say I still don't understand why this is an argument being made. It goes directly against his stated goal (as stated by Redcloak). I have yet to hear a single convincing reason whatsoever that the Dark One would vote to not destroy the world.

First, I agree, the Dark One would probably vote to save the world

However......I don't think it's THAT clean cut.

What happens if the world is destroyed? The Dark One gets an equal say in the creation of the new world.

What happens if it is not destroyed, and Redcloak accomplishes The Plan? The Dark One has the other gods' lives in his hands, and can blackmail them to give him pretty much whatever he wants. SO yes, he DOES have a decent reason for wanting to keep the world around

The problem is, this relies on The Plan actually working, and right now Redcloak is 0-4 on gates, so, while the Dark One is probably still HOPING The Plan will work out and he'll get his blackmail weapon, I don't know if he's willing to risk dying just to get a bigger piece of the pie.

[Peelee]

First, I agree, the Dark One would probably vote to save the world

However......I don't think it's THAT clean cut.

What happens if the world is destroyed? The Dark One gets an equal say in the creation of the new world.

What happens if it is not destroyed, and Redcloak accomplishes The Plan? The Dark One has the other gods' lives in his hands, and can blackmail them to give him pretty much whatever he wants. SO yes, he DOES have a decent reason for wanting to keep the world around

The problem is, this relies on The Plan actually working, and right now Redcloak is 0-4 on gates, so, while the Dark One is probably still HOPING The Plan will work out and he'll get his blackmail weapon, I don't know if he's willing to risk dying just to get a bigger piece of the pie.

Aha. Didn't know that. To counterpoint!

We are shown in the creation of World 2.0 that the gods take turns deciding on the how to form the world. For instance, Monkey tosses in some ninjas, even though they agreed on a medieval setting, and though there was an objection tabled, Monkey still got his ninjas. As such, The Dark One wouldn't need to blackmail the gods if he were involved in the creation of World 3.0. Redcloak says as much when he admits that The Plan has a good chance of eradicating creation, which is just as good an outcome for the Dark One, since he will then have a hand in creating the next world. Blackmail is only a necessity so long as the current world survives.

So, logically, if the Dark One were to have a vote, it would do nothing but behoove him to vote Yes.

[Dr.Zero]

First, I agree, the Dark One would probably vote to save the world

However......I don't think it's THAT clean cut.

What happens if the world is destroyed? The Dark One gets an equal say in the creation of the new world.

What happens if it is not destroyed, and Redcloak accomplishes The Plan? The Dark One has the other gods' lives in his hands, and can blackmail them to give him pretty much whatever he wants. SO yes, he DOES have a decent reason for wanting to keep the world around

The problem is, this relies on The Plan actually working, and right now Redcloak is 0-4 on gates, so, while the Dark One is probably still HOPING The Plan will work out and he'll get his blackmail weapon, I don't know if he's willing to risk dying just to get a bigger piece of the pie.

Basically this.
But even more, we have no frigging idea on how divine things work, really.
Word of Rich explained the thing about the "influx".

Does it work even for the Dark One? Will he get a say on the new world's shape?
If so, how many goblinoids live in this world? Enough to create a greater "influx" than Hel's dwarves?
If the reply is again: "yes", he could even be happy about the destruction of this world.

Or for raised gods things work differently? How much power will he have to shape the new world and once the new world is created?

If, say, the power of raised gods is based mostly on the sheer number of living worshippers, he surely would prefer to risk with the plan instead of losing for sure destroying the world.

Since we have no idea of the right replies to these questions, we will never know for sure how the Dark One would have voted. Really we don't even know if he had the right to vote in the south pantheon.

[Lord Stoneheart]

That's the point im trying to make.. where in the comic does it say that you have to be in X pantheon to get a vote? Everyone is assuming the dark one is SOL. And the reason seems to be that his background color is violet therefore X, Y, Z and no godsmoot rules apply to him. Hey as far as im aware there is no D&D rules about where, how, and when gods vote in their "parliament". Can it be that the dark one knows nothing about the godsmoot because none of the other gods told him and he has no godly powers that might alert him to it going on or happening in any way: Sure.. but I have seen nothing in the comic that says that and no clues to why that "is the way of the godsmoot". Can the dark one be denied a vote by the other gods? Sure he can, but they can do the same thing to thor too right? If the reason why the other gods is denying the dark one a vote is that they can or they want to.. that's fine. But unless all the other gods just hate violet there does not seem to be a IN comic reason for the dark one to not have a vote. I mean I would love for someone to link me to a comic where the other gods are talking behind the dark one's back and plotting to destroy the universe without him... with a "no dark ones" sign on their clubhouse.. but I have no seen that comic yet.

I feel like my counterarguments are being ignored here. But to expand on what I said, the gods don't hate The Dark One because his aura is violet. Some of the good gods don't like him, probably because he's an ascended being who started out as a race that was meant to be cannon fodder for their own priests. (Well that's The Dark One's explanation at least). In any case, he's not part of the Northern Pantheon. He doesn't get to vote in the Northern Godsmoot. While it's not explicitly said "No Dark Ones allowed!" at the moot, it doesn't need to be said because he's not part of the pantheon. If he were allowed to vote we might as well expect a vote from Giggles. (Realizes that there's a bunch of people on the forum who keep calling for Banjo's and Giggles' vote). Okay, really that's not going to happen. There's one demigod vote left. It's going to come from the mouth of the dwarf dude in the first panel of comic 1012. Chances are he's going to vote No, simply so we see what the backup plan that Lurky has is.

Besides, it's not like there's no other precedent for a god being disenfranchised from the godsmoot. Hel is a full fledged Northern goddess (I'd like to underline Northern a hundred times here), and she's been unable to vote ever since World 2.0 has been around at the latest. We know this is the result of a bet she made, but she accuses Loki and Thor of tricking her with the bet so she would be shut out of these things. (See comic 1000. Loki claims that this wasn't the intention, but it's likely that's just an attempt to placate her)


Aha. Didn't know that. To counterpoint!

We are shown in the creation of World 2.0 that the gods take turns deciding on the how to form the world. For instance, Monkey tosses in some ninjas, even though they agreed on a medieval setting, and though there was an objection tabled, Monkey still got his ninjas. As such, The Dark One wouldn't need to blackmail the gods if he were involved in the creation of World 3.0. Redcloak says as much when he admits that The Plan has a good chance of eradicating creation, which is just as good an outcome for the Dark One, since he will then have a hand in creating the next world. Blackmail is only a necessity so long as the current world survives.

So, logically, if the Dark One were to have a vote, it would do nothing but behoove him to vote Yes.

Also this. I'm really not sure what argument one could put in favor for The Dark One suddenly appearing to vote no considering all the evidence to the contrary.

[littlebum2002]

Let's say, in a certain fictional country, let's call it Keyboardania, convicted felons aren't allowed to vote. Steve, a convicted felon and a citizen of Keyboardania, is working to have this law overturned.

Keyboardania's neighbor to the left I mean West is Coffemugistan. They have no law about convicted felons not being allowed to vote, and hold elections around the same time as Keyboardania.

Steve is ultimately successful, and gets Keyboardania' law overturned.

Which country's elections would Steve vote in? Keyboardania? Or Coffeemugistan?

Of course the answer is Keyboardania, because that is where he lives and the country of which he is a citizen. It would be silly to think he would vote anywhere else. So even if the Dark One could convince the deities who hate him to give him a privilege they don't have to give him, he wouldn't go vote somewhere else in the world. He would vote in the South, which is the only place in the world he has a significant amount of worshipers.

[Pyrous]

First, I agree, the Dark One would probably vote to save the world

However......I don't think it's THAT clean cut.

What happens if the world is destroyed? The Dark One gets an equal say in the creation of the new world.

What happens if it is not destroyed, and Redcloak accomplishes The Plan? The Dark One has the other gods' lives in his hands, and can blackmail them to give him pretty much whatever he wants. SO yes, he DOES have a decent reason for wanting to keep the world around

The problem is, this relies on The Plan actually working, and right now Redcloak is 0-4 on gates, so, while the Dark One is probably still HOPING The Plan will work out and he'll get his blackmail weapon, I don't know if he's willing to risk dying just to get a bigger piece of the pie.

What I like the most about this argument is that it aligns pretty well with: "Don't screw this up. No pressure, though." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)