Compulsory Exercise: Playing a fighter

[Spore]

Everyone knows them. They are a trope. They are a cornerstone of RPGs. They cleave flimsy men in bathrobes in twain, they take a dagger from the shadow to their hairy chest and retaliate with reckless abandon, the fighters. They do not care about the mysticism of the clergy but they appreciate their support.

The Fighter. The great fighters become warleaders. Noblemen. Kings! They don't gather dust in an old wizard tower. And while the class isn't the greatest (okay, I understate a bit, they suck compared to other options), they are still a paragon amongst the people (yeah, they're a PC, any PC is special). And while they will probably scratch at the bottom of T4 if optimized, they are truly an option.

*cough*

So I never played a fighter in D&D. It has always gotten bad reviews from everywhere I have looked. Fighters are stupid they say. Fighters have one solution to conflict, combat, they say. They joke about the stupid guy that is risking his life in melee combat while they stand back, shoot, cast or even worse, SING. And yet, almost every story in D&D has a good amount of warriors, fighters and other purely mundane combatants.

Ahem, so what I am trying to do here is create a fighter shooting through the tiers into T3, even if it is low: Requirements:
- true classed fighter; MAAAAAAAYBE mundane full BAB prestige classes
- archetypes allowed
- (ab)use of favored class and race strictly encouraged
- assume healing is dealt with and a (god) wizard has your back, albeit not with all her slots
- Leadership is probably an option but assume dangerous missions alone, maximum one follower or many followers with mundane NPC classes. Assume a non optimized Leadership score, typical adventurer (moves around a lot, non matching alignments) stuff
- combat ability should be the center but utility, untypical fighter attributes (*gasp* intelligence!) and skills (solving problems with....ugh....diplomacy?!) are extremely cool bonus points.
- level progression should be playable; the character should be able to contribute at all levels,
- bonus points if you get a switch hitting build to work: people say, jump is the poor man's fly spell but I say: An barrage of arrows to the face is the poor man's fly spell.
- gear optimization is good but the build shouldn't fall apart when stripped of a key item.

25PB, assume WBL plus a few homebrew items to patch up holes in the build (just think of something within the lines of the item creation rules, chances are that the DM will allow them if they are not base for a whole build)

[Florian]

*Sigh*

You know, some 20 years back, there was a great advertising campaign that startet with the words "The history of menstruation is a history of missunderstanding..."

Same holds true to the basic Fighter. No other class has been reliably killing stuff up to and including gods as easy, fast and reliable as that class.

For Pathfinder, pick Sword and Board, TWF and pack a Cube of Force. Done.

[Honest Tiefling]

You know, some 20 years back, there was a great advertising campaign that startet with the words "The history of menstruation is a history of missunderstanding..."

The heck do you try to sell with a line like that!?


Anyway, what about the cavalier? You got a horse, so that's a callback to the image of a knight in shining armor upon a noble steed. You get 4 instead of 2 skill points, and you can take either intelligence or charisma as a secondary stat. Make yourself a halfling if you want to take advantage of your race.

[Tuvarkz]

Methinks a Lore Warden Fighter with the Weapon Training group replacers (Particularly those that give you two skills as class skills and skill ranks=BAB, basically adding another 2 skill ranks each level), plus some of the Magic Item Mastery and Weapon Mastery feats (Everything from Weapon Master's Handbook, basically) could manage to reach the borderline between Tier 4 and Tier 3.
Of course, you'd be willing to slap some 3pp onto it, adding the Myrmidon archetype should bridge the remaining gap into full T3.
Alternatively, this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15YKqNTJJVOwI3yLUTHlMS43KBoE9lbLYcQQ6W-0KLeE/edit (Warning: Language is politically incorrect).

[Red Fel]

Same holds true to the basic Fighter. No other class has been reliably killing stuff up to and including gods as easy, fast and reliable as that class.

Your Fighters consistently beat up gods?

http://img.pandawhale.com/83365-puny-god-gif-Hulk-The-Avengers-o7Tn.gif
By the way, the guy in the image? Barbarian.

[Azoth]

Is third party allowed?

If not I am a fan of Martial Master + Lore Warden for archetype comboing.

[Spore]

Is third party allowed?

If not I am a fan of Martial Master + Lore Warden for archetype comboing.

At this point I basically play under either a DM that has a good grasp on the rules OR another DM that I can basically talk into anything I want (he basically only vetoed Misfortune Hex + Cackle + Misfortune Revelation crippling his boss monsters taking the tension out of basically any fight), so yeah, well placed 3p is okay.

Keep in mind that it is a requirement to completely translate needed English passages for ready use (so the whole group can understand them, even those not so proficient in English).


*Sigh*

You know, some 20 years back, there was a great advertising campaign that startet with the words "The history of menstruation is a history of missunderstanding..."

Same holds true to the basic Fighter. No other class has been reliably killing stuff up to and including gods as easy, fast and reliable as that class.

For Pathfinder, pick Sword and Board, TWF and pack a Cube of Force. Done.

Even if I get your tampon joke (for non-Germans, it's a quite cheesy commercial about tampons claiming female biology is a mystery) but I cannot fully make out your metaphor. I know S&B TWFing is decent but it hampers your mobility to a point where you become non threatening and thus no enemy - short of a DM pitying you - would attack you because you're slow and immobile (TWFing effectively requires full attacks).


The heck do you try to sell with a line like that!?


Anyway, what about the cavalier? You got a horse, so that's a callback to the image of a knight in shining armor upon a noble steed. You get 4 instead of 2 skill points, and you can take either intelligence or charisma as a secondary stat. Make yourself a halfling if you want to take advantage of your race.

Already got a Cavalier. And a Halfling one at that. If I'd go for a class like that again, then I'd go Samurai tbh. But the Samurai just isn't a fighter.


Methinks a Lore Warden Fighter with the Weapon Training group replacers (Particularly those that give you two skills as class skills and skill ranks=BAB, basically adding another 2 skill ranks each level), plus some of the Magic Item Mastery and Weapon Mastery feats (Everything from Weapon Master's Handbook, basically) could manage to reach the borderline between Tier 4 and Tier 3.
Of course, you'd be willing to slap some 3pp onto it, adding the Myrmidon archetype should bridge the remaining gap into full T3.
Alternatively, this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15YKqNTJJVOwI3yLUTHlMS43KBoE9lbLYcQQ6W-0KLeE/edit (Warning: Language is politically incorrect).

I can't find the Weapon Training replacers you talk of. Which books? Which sites?

[Florian]

@Sporeegg:

Somehow had the feeling you would remember that commercial ;)


Joking aside, when we're not talking about the astral plane, no combat encounter happens in a vacuum and you can always take control of your enviroment, no matter what class we're talking about. That was the "mystery" I was steering you at, because that is that part that never has been true.

[Tuvarkz]

I can't find the Weapon Training replacers you talk of. Which books? Which sites?

http://paizo.com/products/btpy9e8g?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Weapon-Masters-Handbook

PDF is up tomorrow for non subscribers, and some certain sites already did quite a long talk about the contents of the book, and fighters got a big slice of the cake this time.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, there's the Mutation warrior who gets access to alchemy, and there's another archetype that gives you a familiar, and then there's speccing for maneuvers using a reach weapon... I think that'd be quite the interesting fighter build.

[ngilop]

I have heard great things about the Tactician fighter archetype.

[Spore]

Joking aside, when we're not talking about the astral plane, no combat encounter happens in a vacuum .

Ironically that is one of the weaknesses of the fighter. Most games I've been in gave fighters two problems occasionally. They cannot fly and if a Fly spell is used their flight check is terrible. Secondly, invisible enemies.

[Azoth]

Since third party is allowed, I would have to suggest Myrmidon + Lore Warden + Martial Master. It trades away a lot of what it is to be a fighter, but improves you greatly.

Things you lose: Medium + Heavy Proficiency, Bravery, Weapon Training, Armor Training, Bonus Feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th.

For this you go up to 6+Int skill points per level, gain changeable floating bonus feats, a scaling bonus to CMB/CMD, and become a partial initiator with some other minor benefits.

You become a capable skill monkey as a human with a basic Int 10. The floating feats can turn you into an archer, Demoralizer, grappler, tripper, ect as needed for 1 minute at a time. Depending on your disciplines taken as an initiator you can tank, be high damage, be a buffer/BFC/debuffer/healer...whatever you envision the guy doing.

[Florian]

Ironically that is one of the weaknesses of the fighter. Most games I've been in gave fighters two problems occasionally. They cannot fly and if a Fly spell is used their flight check is terrible. Secondly, invisible enemies.

Oh, please don't tell me you ended up gaming only in groups where combat turns into being a puzzle, only solveable by wizards, the kind when you end up having only one very long encounter per game session? Terrible and boring.

[Kurald Galain]

Ironically that is one of the weaknesses of the fighter. Most games I've been in gave fighters two problems occasionally. They cannot fly and if a Fly spell is used their flight check is terrible. Secondly, invisible enemies.

It would be useful if there was a trait that adds Fly to your class skill list, but it seems like there isn't one.

As for the second, Blind-Fight is a good feat to counteract this, and most parties should have at least one caster with either Glitterdust or Faerie Fire.

[Florian]

It would be useful if there was a trait that adds Fly to your class skill list, but it seems like there isn't one.

As for the second, Blind-Fight is a good feat to counteract this, and most parties should have at least one caster with either Glitterdust or Faerie Fire.

Why waste a trait on that? The +3 trained bonus is not that huge and as a Fighter, you should have a fairly decent Dex score.

Also, keep in mind that Air Walk is the better option for fighter, supporting stuff like boots of striding and springing.

[Heliomance]

Same holds true to the basic Fighter. No other class has been reliably killing stuff up to and including gods as easy, fast and reliable as that class.
.

Apart from, y'know, literally almost every other class...

[icefractal]

Oh, please don't tell me you ended up gaming only in groups where combat turns into being a puzzle, only solveable by wizards, the kind when you end up having only one very long encounter per game session? Terrible and boring.:smallconfused: I don't think that "the monster can fly" is some kind of weird puzzle-encounter. Nor is "the monster can turn invisible".

I mean yes, the environment, but that's a two-edged sword. Unless you exclusively have enemies coming to you and engaging on your own turf, the environment is going to be hostile to you as often as it'll be helpful.

[Azoth]

The problem with putting ranks in the fly skill is that you can not do so until you have a reliable means of flight every day. Whether this is through a magic item, racial ability, or spell is of no consequence. The skill itself states you need reliable daily means of flight before you can buy even one rank in it. Well unless you go the easy route and get a headband of +2 Int keyed to the fly skill.

[Florian]

@Heliomance:

Like mentioned earlier, that depends on what parameters we're talking about. The Fighter basically is an "all day long" class with only one ressource to manage and thrives under this conditions. If you reduce the number of encounters without changing the Fighter to be more burst capable, then yes, efficiency drops sharp.

@icefractal:

The issue itself is keyed to the question whether a Fighter has to provide this stuff for himself, then it is a puzzle, or if it can be relied on that other characters can provide for the fighter, then its just ressource management.
Diskussions like these allways seem to veer in the direction that a character must be fully self-reliant to be of any worth, though.

@Azoth:

Actually, the easiest way would be going VMC Wizard, Air school, for an auto-scaling bonus to fly and fly as an at will SLA.
It's actually a quite good choice as you can power up Arcane Strike and related feats.

Edit: Actually forgot to ask the most important question...
@Sporeegg:

I wanted to ask that earlier, but got a bit distracted - what parameters to aim for? All day long, burst or 15 minute workday? As with the other classes, that makes a difference in what build to suggest.

[Kurald Galain]

The problem with putting ranks in the fly skill is that you can not do so until you have a reliable means of flight every day. Whether this is through a magic item, racial ability, or spell is of no consequence. The skill itself states you need reliable daily means of flight before you can buy even one rank in it. Well unless you go the easy route and get a headband of +2 Int keyed to the fly skill.

Fighters probably don't want a headband of int much. That said, I'd say that "the wizard casts fly on me every day to practice" is a reliable daily means of flight and should allow the fighter to put ranks in it.


The issue itself is keyed to the question whether a Fighter has to provide this stuff for himself, then it is a puzzle, or if it can be relied on that other characters can provide for the fighter, then its just ressource management.
Diskussions like these allways seem to veer in the direction that a character must be fully self-reliant to be of any worth, though.
Discussions do. But in gameplay I would say that this is a team game, and having support characters cast buffs on you is a normal part of gameplay.

[Seerow]

As others mentioned, since you said that 3rd party is available, Lore Warden + Myrmidon + Martial Master = the perfect fighter. Like to me it has effectively replaced the baseline Fighter, because it totally encompases what the Fighter should be (the only downside to it is the Light Armor).

First, Myrmidon bumps the Fighter up to 4 skills per level base, gives a decent 6-level maneuver progression, and grit, in exchange for some of your bonus feats. Those 6th level maneuvers let you choose 4 disciplines from a pretty diverse list of mundane-ish disciplines, but if you want something flashier you can still opt into it by joining a Martial Tradition or using the Trait for a discipline swap. The grit from Myrmidon gives you a little extra mobility and the capability to ignore a lot of various status conditions, making you feel like a battle hardened warrior who pushes through despite all odds. The combination of the two is just fantastic.


Lore Warden is great because it gives the feeling of a more intelligent warrior instead of the dumb brute Fighters often get stuck as. It gets you two extra skills per level that must be used on int-based skills (and due to the wording this stacks with Myrmidon), a mini-knowledge devotion, huge bonuses to CMB/CMD (so you can do all sorts of fancy maneuver based shenanigans), the ability to avoid critical hits with an acrobatics check, and the ability to auto-confirm crits once a round. Everything about the archetype is fantastic and just oozes the flavor of a character living by his wits and personal capability.

Martial Master is an archetype that gives you the Brawler ability to pick up extra feats on the fly. This gives you a huge amount of flexibility from fight to fight. Remember that huge bonus to CMB/CMD from Lore Warden? Well you never have to actually waste a feat on any of the Improved _____ maneuver feats, if a situation comes up where one would be useful, you can grab the whole chain. As a swift action. But it's not just maneuver feats. It's any combat based feat. Stuck at a range and you're a melee specialist? Pick up 2-3 archery feats and be useful. There's a as many different uses for this ability as there are fighter builds in existence. Just be sure to keep a list of feats that you will regularly consider handy available, so as to not bog down the group with rules look ups.

Oh, and happen to be missing just the perfect maneuver for the situation? Pick up Advanced Training and grab 2 new maneuvers to use for the rest of the fight. Yes, this works. Yes, it goes based off your IL (which equals Fighter level thanks to Myrmidon) instead of your normal max level maneuver, so you can get maneuvers on par with a full initator this way, even grabbing multiple 9th level maneuvers at level 17. Yes, you can even grab a high level maneuver from a discipline you normally don't have access to. Yes it is totally awesome flexibility.


The best part about all 3 archetypes is they fit together well, none of the flavor conflicts, and all of it comes together to paint a picture of a Fighter who is smart, skilled, versatile, and tough. Everything that a Fighter should be. Yet despite that none of the archetypes prevent you from specializing in any direction you want to go. I've made two different Fighters using the exact same archetype set, each with dramatically different results.

One was a great fencer/duelist, with a focus on Scarlet Throne and skills invested in Acrobatics, Knowledge(Local), Bluff, etc, acting as a great showman and a somewhat hammy melee combatant. The other was an archer with a focus on stealth and disruption, taking maneuvers from Veiled Moon(via trait) and Tempest Gale; skills invested into Stealth, Perception, Sleight of Hand, and a couple of relevant knowledge skills. If you set the two characters side by side and saw how they played, you would hardly guess they were members of the same class, much less using the same archetypes. And I think that is fantastic, and shows just how strong and versatile the combination is.

Honorable mention goes to Mutation Warrior. Mutation Warrior trades away the same things that Martial Master does, and so is an alternative that may be used in the same builds. It gives the Fighter access to the Alchemist's Mutagen, along with discoveries at higher levels to augment it. This means you get to boost your physical stats and pick up bonuses like Wings, Extra Arms, Fortification, and so on. Out of the two, I prefer Martial Master because it sticks closest to the Fighter Flavor (which is to say totally open ended), but Mutation Warrior is honestly probably the stronger pick if that flavor appeals to you or fits the character you want at all.

[Florian]

Fighters probably don't want a headband of int much. That said, I'd say that "the wizard casts fly on me every day to practice" is a reliable daily means of flight and should allow the fighter to put ranks in it.


Discussions do. But in gameplay I would say that this is a team game, and having support characters cast buffs on you is a normal part of gameplay.

I'm a bit of two minds concerning the Int headband. If we talk about a high PB value and a long game, it's a shame to not put 3 points into Int to access the whole Combat Expertise chain. This class tanks by AC, after all.
Interestingly enough, if you pick VMC Cavalier and Order of the Eastern Star, you even negate the penalties of using CE.

As for the rest, total agreement on my side. This is a team efford and Fighters are geared towards receiving buffs.

@Seerow:

For a weird variant of the Mutagen Warrior, let me introduce you to the "Genestealer Purebred":
Rage-Bred Fighter (Mutagen Warrior/Savage Warrior) VMC Sorcerer (Orc Bloodline), ending up with around 8 primary natural attacks with a +30 static bonus (40 with Rage, both values not including the size increase to huge), lugging around a Skald to access Rage and Pounce, auto-hitting nearly anything and ending combats very very quick.

[Florian]

@Sporeegg:

When you're on a roll....

Just taking the opportunity to showcase some differences and highlighting why I actually don't like some of the proposals that have been made so far.

The "All Day Long" Fighter:

In a sense, nothing to write home about, not flashy, no special moves at all. Plain and boring.
Builds geared in this direction utilize riders and crit fishing a lot, basing their effectiveness on inflicting multiple stacking conditions on the target, until it is debuffed to a level that even a slightly souped-up commoner can finish it.
If your target is not frightened, sickened, stunned, dazed, tripped, bleeding and smashed against a wall, you should have some serious talk with your dice, as they seem to hate you.

The "Burst Mode" Fighter:

Sick of letting the commoners (aka Bard, Cleric, Druid, Animal Companion...) shine? Well, trade of some debuffing options for x/day attacks or self-only combos and handle things yourself for awhile. Again, have your enemies soil themselves by frightening, tripping, dazing and smashing them against a wall, just to backhand and curbstomp them a bit at your leasure.
Good because of, well, stuff to do, sucks when you run out of ressources to do said things.

The "15 Minutes" Fighter:

Like Metallica? Like the song "Seek and Destroy"? Well, that's where we land at here. No finesse, no teamwork and no need to. Point this Fighter at his target and we're mostly beyond rolling dice now. Extremely gratifying, but very limited in usage.
If done right, that's the "Hulk Smash" effect Red Fel mentioned, without the need to debase oneself by playing a barbarian.

[Spore]

Oh, please don't tell me you ended up gaming only in groups where combat turns into being a puzzle, only solveable by wizards, the kind when you end up having only one very long encounter per game session? Terrible and boring.

Typical combat is either "Kill it in 2 turns because our group's health reserves is about as well stocked as water rights in the Sahara" OR "The enemy made itself non-attackable by normal means. Thus we have to find a way to beat their one trick." We're usually helpless against semi competent foes. Except maybe one group where the warning "the world is dark and magic is rare read for most of us players as "optimize the hell out of your character because you will sure need it".

The fighter is meant for the first kind of group. In a group where a sloppily assembled Investigator with a confused Extract selection using Studied Combat is the pinnacle of problem solving. This is where a master of combat, diplomacy and awareness can solve the problems they face by figuratively saying: "My common senses are tingling."

[bobthehero]

Roll an Aasimar, obtain wings by level 11? Could help with some issues, takes a few feats, but y'know, fighter.

[Psyren]

Ironically that is one of the weaknesses of the fighter. Most games I've been in gave fighters two problems occasionally. They cannot fly and if a Fly spell is used their flight check is terrible. Secondly, invisible enemies.

"Terrible?" I call BS on that - the fly spell gives good maneuverability, which is an automatic +4, and fighters usually have decent dex (12-14 minimum before items) so they can have positive initiative and can pull out the composite bow as a backup when needed. Most of the Fly DCs are static, so even with no ranks your Boots of Flying will make you pretty decent at things like not stalling. 5ft. step in the air every round and maintaining altitude means rolling a 6 with 10 Dex. Plus you have tons of feats, so if flight is really a problem pick up Skill Focus Fly (no prereqs) for an additional +6, and now staying in the air is auto-success.

There are plenty of ways to beat invis too.

[Hunter Noventa]

I feel so out of it with all these archetypes and combinations, when the last PF Fighter I played was back during beta, used TWF and was the most reliable member of the party when it came to getting things done. And also also the most intimidating 16-year-old girl in the world.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I just want to say that if you can ask/beg/blackmail/threaten your DM (actually don't do the last two) into letting you use Combat Stamina, heck drop a feat for it if you need it (you are a fighter after all), because for the most part they are actually very useful abilities. To be honest I'm kinda surprised Psyren didn't suggest it before.:smalltongue:

[Psyren]

I just want to say that if you can ask/beg/blackmail/threaten your DM (actually don't do the last two) into letting you use Combat Stamina, heck drop a feat for it if you need it (you are a fighter after all), because for the most part they are actually very useful abilities. To be honest I'm kinda surprised Psyren didn't suggest it before.:smalltongue:

I've been promoting it until I'm blue in the face in every thread I see that complains about fighters :smalltongue: my arm gets a little tired beating that drum, but you're right, it's definitely a recommendation here too.

[Florian]

Typical combat is either "Kill it in 2 turns because our group's health reserves is about as well stocked as water rights in the Sahara" OR "The enemy made itself non-attackable by normal means. Thus we have to find a way to beat their one trick." We're usually helpless against semi competent foes. Except maybe one group where the warning "the world is dark and magic is rare read for most of us players as "optimize the hell out of your character because you will sure need it".

The fighter is meant for the first kind of group. In a group where a sloppily assembled Investigator with a confused Extract selection using Studied Combat is the pinnacle of problem solving. This is where a master of combat, diplomacy and awareness can solve the problems they face by figuratively saying: "My common senses are tingling."

You serious? After the whole preamble, I'd habe expected soloing some equal CR dragons, defeating waves of Shoggoths or trying to kill an nascent demon lord or something like that.

[Psyren]

For the latter, the other members of the party (spellcasters in particular) can deal with the "one trick" and the fighter can then be their winning shot. So you take down the Prismatic Wall that the baddie is hiding behind and the fighter charges in to fillet him for instance.

[ElderLucian]

I agree with those that are suggesting the Myrmidon archetype. Also for a race if you are looking for something different I suggest checking out DSP's book Bloodforge which is all about half breeds. It really showcases just how promiscuous Elves are.

[Florian]

For the latter, the other members of the party (spellcasters in particular) can deal with the "one trick" and the fighter can then be their winning shot. So you take down the Prismatic Wall that the baddie is hiding behind and the fighter charges in to fillet him for instance.

So, yes, the afore mentioned puzzle for the wizard to solve, hallmark of bad encounter design.

[Red Fel]

So, yes, the afore mentioned puzzle for the wizard to solve, hallmark of bad encounter design.

No. Stop that.

Some encounters are hard to solve. A flying enemy. An incorporeal enemy. A ranged attacker. These are challenges. Noting that the Wizard can solve them does not make them badly designed encounters. It just means that the Wizard is a Tier 1 character, capable of addressing anything. That's the definition of Tier 1.

The problem isn't that a Wizard can trivialize any encounter. The problem is that the Fighter is the opposite. If the Fighter lacks ranged weapons or flight, an enemy encounter is impossible. If he lacks magical weaponry, an incorporeal enemy is unbeatable. If he lacks certain features, an invisible enemy is untouchable. That's the frustrating thing about the Fighter.

Pathfinder did a better job than 3.5 of giving the Fighter options. But even with that, the gulf between casters and non-casters, or even partial-casters and full-casters, is extremely wide.

The OP isn't asking us about "puzzle encounters." He's trying to make a Fighter that can at least function, if not amazingly well, in most, if not all, encounters. That's Tier 3 - very good at one thing, and/or reasonably good at several things. Ideally, that means having out-of-combat functionality as well as in-combat functionality.

There are a few options. An Aasimar can gain wings, which is major. A Kitsune with a feat can grab some useful social SLAs. Other options also exist.

But boasting that the Fighter has some innate virtue that it lacks, or dismissing any encounter the Fighter can't solve by default as a "puzzle" and "bad encounter design," is unhelpful.

[stanprollyright]

Forgive me if I'm behind here, but how exactly do these archetype combos make a Fighter Tier 3? I don't have PoW, nor have I played in a game where its allowed. Martial Master and Lore Warden are great and give some much-needed flexibility and out-of-combat skills. But how exactly would a Myrmidon Fighter deal with typical Fighter foils like a flying, incorporeal, or invisible enemy?

[Psyren]

So, yes, the afore mentioned puzzle for the wizard to solve, hallmark of bad encounter design.

The whole point of spellcasting is to solve puzzles. And D&D is not designed to be a solo game, even if certain classes can treat it like one when optimized.

[Florian]

Sorry, I'm not good a bringing my point across when I'm loath of a topic and have to translate my thoughts on it simultaneously.

The example was insofar good, as it showcases using an ready-made ingame mechanic to build a roadblock that has to be either removed or circumvented.
Let me put a little bit more emphasis on that: The way it was phrased, you habe to solve it or you lose. (Psyren, if you intended otherwise, I still use it this way as an example)

I do agree with the other stuff - Encounters are there to be challenging and options should be used to make them viable encounters. Flying baddies? Invisible? All not a problem, part of the game and players always have solutions at hand. (Don't pack any ramged attack? Your problem, you had a fair chance at it...)

No, I'm especially mad at that special example, because it included a very certain solution and if you don't have that, game over. If you can't proceed unless Dispel Magic is used and the check to dispel the spell is made, then yes, I do say that is bad design.

[Psyren]

Let me put a little bit more emphasis on that: The way it was phrased, you habe to solve it or you lose. (Psyren, if you intended otherwise, I still use it this way as an example)

I do intend otherwise actually. Take Fighter vs. Flier - If you can't get up there after them, well, a composite longbow may not be ideal but you certainly have the feats and BAB to spare to make it semi-decent. And if they fly out of longbow range they clearly aren't going to stop you from going wherever you were going. Note also that the PF Fighter encourages a back-up weapon strategy; Weapon Training continues to scale your first choice even as it gives you a second, third and fourth.

Or take Fighter vs. Invisible - if you don't have an item-based invisibility counter, there's always Blind-Fight - not ideal, but again you have the feats to spare, and if you know you don't have any item-based ways to counter it then picking it up is probably a smart idea. Martial Master in particular makes this solution attractive, grabbing a situational feat like that only when needed. And even if you have neither of those things, you've got a 50% miss chance - not ideal, but enough swings/shots will take it down eventually.Your bigger problem is locating its square, which you can do via a bag of flour or a pet bat or something.

These are not "automatic loss" scenarios, just "inconvenient." And when you're T4, "inconvenient" is often an acceptable outcome.

As far as prismatic wall, well, even if you don't have the spellcaster to take it down, that doesn't necessarily mean a loss either. After all, whoever is back there can't do much of anything to you either. It depends on the goals of the session/campaign.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Forgive me if I'm behind here, but how exactly do these archetype combos make a Fighter Tier 3? I don't have PoW, nor have I played in a game where its allowed. Martial Master and Lore Warden are great and give some much-needed flexibility and out-of-combat skills. But how exactly would a Myrmidon Fighter deal with typical Fighter foils like a flying, incorporeal, or invisible enemy?

The martial master archetype gives a lot of versatility in combat, hey that is a Hydra attacking you? Good thing you can pick up Improved Sunder on the fly! As for myrmidon, while a lot of the disciplines offer a lot of raw damage (coughprimalfurycough) there are others which offer versatility, Veiled moon gives you a lot of mobility, silver crane gives you healing, Tempest gale get you some ranged utility via ranged maneuvers and those are just a few examples from the top of my head.

[Florian]

Not disagreeing with you. If you over-specialize or over-optimize and can't engage in a more or less usuall encounter anymore because of this, well, your bad.

Please give me a chance to disentangle that mess before we derail this thread. Please note that I'm basing this on something the OP said and I'm especially taking this into account.

Ok, the original statement still stands: Fighters have a bad rep because they don't have any inherrent class features to solve puzzles mechanically. A puzzle, unlike a riddle, is something that needs a certain key to be solved.

The original task still stands, proposing a decent Fighter builds that is fun to play, effective in combat and can provide keys to certain puzzles, namely social encounters and perception.

We do have a statement from the OP that it is not necessary to go beyond that, what is still open is the question if it is nonetheless asked for and wanted, i.e. providing more keys to more riddles, like the afore mentioned Prismatic Wall, as that has happened in his group, so that is a relevant thing.

Now we do know that two casters are availlable and an option, we don't know anything beyond that, though. To provide a good build, especially for a lower tier class, that is needed.

Sorry if I came over as venting, that was not the case.

[Seerow]

The martial master archetype gives a lot of versatility in combat, hey that is a Hydra attacking you? Good thing you can pick up Improved Sunder on the fly! As for myrmidon, while a lot of the disciplines offer a lot of raw damage (coughprimalfurycough) there are others which offer versatility, Veiled moon gives you a lot of mobility, silver crane gives you healing, Tempest gale get you some ranged utility via ranged maneuvers and those are just a few examples from the top of my head.

And to get into the specific examples a bit more:

Flying-Hey look you use Martial Master and can now use a ranged weapon. Done. Also there is a 5th level Silver Crane stance that grants a flight speed, and even if you don't have Silver Crane as a chosen discipline, you can use Martial Master to pick up Advanced Training to nab the stance.

Incorporeal-Veiled Moon has a lot of tools for dealing with incorporeals. There's a strike available as early as second level that lets you hit an Incorporeal with no miss chance and some extra damage. A 6th level maneuver can actually force the incorporeal creature to become corporeal. And again even if you don't have these maneuvers or even this discipline known, Martial Master can let you pick it up on the fly when needed.

Invisible-3rd level Veiled Moon stance grants See Invisibility. There's a lower level stance that grants Scent which can also help. I'm sure if I dug around I could find more.



Basically the long and short of it is that maneuvers let you do a lot of cool things and respond to a ton of different situations. Martial Master combined with Myrmidon lets you have whatever maneuver you really need when you need it, making you insanely adaptable to just about any situation. And that ignores the fun stuff you can do with Martial Master flexible feats even outside of Advanced Training, which can let you grab all sorts of interesting special effects/abilities to use for an encounter.

And to top it all off you 6+int skills to help provide you with any out of combat utility that your feats/maneuvers don't provide. You're strongly incentivized to have some knowledge skillls, but there's plenty of options. The Myrmidon and Lore Warden expand your class skill list significantly, and swapping out disciplines is a good way to get access to class skills you wouldn't normally have even with that.

[Triskavanski]

Martial Master is good yea, but at the same time, I think it kinda hurts, just a little, now that there is the Weapon Master's handbook that has all these lovely goodies for people who actually do have weapon training.

However I did make a fighter that I think could hold his own. He's doesn't have a focus item, but he is pretty item dependent.

Therin Dasher - Dirty Fighter
Human Lorewarden/Martial Master
Racial Alteration - Fey Magic, Get Acrobatics/Perception
Traits - Pragmatic Activator/Cunning Wordplay (Bluff)

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 10

(I don't know if that is actually 25 point buy or not, I rolled two 16s and a 14 getting my Str Dex and Int up to 16 each )

Level 1 feats - Dirty Fighter, Improved Dirty Trick, Quick draw
Level 2 - Combat Stamina (Combat Expertise)
Level 3 - Gang Up
Level 4 - Step Up
Level 5 - Press to the Wall
Level 6 - Greater Dirty Trick
Level 7 - Artful Dodge


Most of the feats from this point are going to be mostly focused around 'unlocking' new feat chains, and working somewhat up the way of the feat chains, beyond stuff to make Dirty trick better.

[stanprollyright]

And to get into the specific examples a bit more:

Flying-Hey look you use Martial Master and can now use a ranged weapon. Done. Also there is a 5th level Silver Crane stance that grants a flight speed, and even if you don't have Silver Crane as a chosen discipline, you can use Martial Master to pick up Advanced Training to nab the stance.

Incorporeal-Veiled Moon has a lot of tools for dealing with incorporeals. There's a strike available as early as second level that lets you hit an Incorporeal with no miss chance and some extra damage. A 6th level maneuver can actually force the incorporeal creature to become corporeal. And again even if you don't have these maneuvers or even this discipline known, Martial Master can let you pick it up on the fly when needed.

Invisible-3rd level Veiled Moon stance grants See Invisibility. There's a lower level stance that grants Scent which can also help. I'm sure if I dug around I could find more.



Basically the long and short of it is that maneuvers let you do a lot of cool things and respond to a ton of different situations. Martial Master combined with Myrmidon lets you have whatever maneuver you really need when you need it, making you insanely adaptable to just about any situation. And that ignores the fun stuff you can do with Martial Master flexible feats even outside of Advanced Training, which can let you grab all sorts of interesting special effects/abilities to use for an encounter.

And to top it all off you 6+int skills to help provide you with any out of combat utility that your feats/maneuvers don't provide. You're strongly incentivized to have some knowledge skillls, but there's plenty of options. The Myrmidon and Lore Warden expand your class skill list significantly, and swapping out disciplines is a good way to get access to class skills you wouldn't normally have even with that.

Thank you! I'm going to add that combo of archetypes to my "I'll play this...someday" list.

[Spore]

No, I'm especially mad at that special example, because it included a very certain solution and if you don't have that, game over. If you can't proceed unless Dispel Magic is used and the check to dispel the spell is made, then yes, I do say that is bad design.

While I think required encounters should be somewhat tailored to the group I do not think a world where every combat is easily doable is good for immersion.I've had a good example this weekend. Our group consisting of two oracles (don't ask why) some mundanes and my investigator came across a bound Efreeti forced but unwilling to kill us. Most players were beginners with my friend and me (Paladin and Investigator) being veterans. And the situation SCREAMED using Dispel Magic to us. Stupidly enough neither Oracle had learned said spell. Out of game we knew the creature was bound by at least three seperate geas spells.

And I think the combat was well designed just because the DM showed us (and more importantly the oracle players) the ingame need for certain spells. But back to the topic


Forgive me if I'm behind here, but how exactly do these archetype combos make a Fighter Tier 3? I don't have PoW, nor have I played in a game where its allowed. Martial Master and Lore Warden are great and give some much-needed flexibility and out-of-combat skills. But how exactly would a Myrmidon Fighter deal with typical Fighter foils like a flying, incorporeal, or invisible enemy?

We are not claiming the Fighter IS necessarily T3. We hope to achieve something as close as possible to top T4/bottom T3. With the tendency of Pathfinder Archetypes to steal other - more powerful - classes' features and add it to the Fighter while keeping the fluff relatively mundane the Pathfinder Fighter should be able to become more flexible in and out of combat.

Although we mostly agree that the racials probably have to do a good amount of the work required (flying races such as 11th level Aasimars or Strix, SLA heavy mystical races such as Fetchlings and Kitsune)

[Dusk Eclipse]

If 3rd party is on the table, just go myrmidon fighter, with the discipline swap (trait or tradition, even both) you can get a lot of utility, add in martial master and simply pick up maneuvers on the fly. Mutation warrior might be a little stronger (and that is debatable depending on maneuver choice), but I don't see any kind of fighter more versatile than myrmidon martial master.

[Triskavanski]

Well, I've just noticed a new feat combination that I've stated in a previous one.

Barroom Brawling and the new Weapon Master's Handbook Advance Weapon Training that gives you extra uses perday of combat feats that have a limited number uses per day. So if you pick that up, you'd have up to 5 uses per day of the feat.

[stanprollyright]

We are not claiming the Fighter IS necessarily T3. We hope to achieve something as close as possible to top T4/bottom T3. With the tendency of Pathfinder Archetypes to steal other - more powerful - classes' features and add it to the Fighter while keeping the fluff relatively mundane the Pathfinder Fighter should be able to become more flexible in and out of combat.

Although we mostly agree that the racials probably have to do a good amount of the work required (flying races such as 11th level Aasimars or Strix, SLA heavy mystical races such as Fetchlings and Kitsune)

Well of course not. Base Fighter is still T5. But there is room in the tier system for exceptional builds that advance you a tier or two. What we really want is
Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate

[JeepthingJim]

I'm over my head here. But in 1st edition I always used magic items to make up my short comings as a fighter.

[ElderLucian]

Although we mostly agree that the racials probably have to do a good amount of the work required (flying races such as 11th level Aasimars or Strix, SLA heavy mystical races such as Fetchlings and Kitsune)

Bloodforge has races that automatically get flight at 9th level or if you have the right type/subtype you can have it by 7th at the earliest with 2-3 feats.

[Seerow]

I'm over my head here. But in 1st edition I always used magic items to make up my short comings as a fighter.

The problem with that mindset in 3.5/PF is that Magic Items became more standardized. There are no longer magic items that provide increased benefit to Fighters, and no longer is it just expected that the DM will give more magic items to the guy without spells. In fact there's explicitly spelled out guidelines as to how much wealth/magic items a given character of a given level should have access to, and that amount is the same between characters. So while a Fighter does get magic items, the Wizard and Cleric get them too, on top of their personal magic capabilities. In fact, Magic Users tend to have better access to magic items, due to having an easier time crafting them themselves and being able to use spells to cover some of the more boring numerical enchantments that a Fighter absolutely needs to keep up with the monster power curve.


I do think that a system where the Fighter makes up for his shortcomings by relying on magic items can work. It just can't work in a system where magic item availability is as codified and equal as it is in 3.5. In the past I've spitballed things like all characters having a personal reserve of magical power that increases as you gain levels, characters with magic abilities have to spend that reserve to gain their inherent abilities while Fighters and Rogues have their full amount available to invest into magic gear instead. I still think it could work, but balancing it correctly is a monumental task, and practically writing a whole new system.

[Florian]

@Sporeegg:

Mind explaining why you keep insisting that a Fighter should be able to do that stuff on his own and not somply delegate it to magic items or the party casters? So why chosing such a convoluted way to gain access to flight as fiddling with weird faces, when a simply potion does the trick?

[Florian]

@Seerow:

Sorry, but I can absolutelly not agree with you on this.
The most basic advice we tend to give to fledgeling bookish types of casters it to get an crafting feat and start moving the slew of utility spells over to scrolls and potions, to have options at hand.
Now I've nearly never seen any kind of planned build where WBL was set aside to actually accomplish that, as well as actually paying for your spellbook and stuff. But the basic assumption is always thrown around that they donit and the stuff is availlable.
If we stick with this assumption, then we can also assume that a Fighter or similiar class has all those little potions and stuff at hand when he needs a bit of magical backup. Or handwave the argument in the same way we do with wizards, simply assuming that it can be crafted/brewed at will and will be availlable without a hassle.

Besides that, outfitting a PF Fighter, what we're talking about right now, can be wither expensive or surprisingly cheap, if we simply take into account whether a wiz/clr are at hand for buffing or not.

@All:

Something I'm quite curious is the hype still given to the Lore Warden. Please so tell me why that is. The Archetype is terrible in the defensive department and loses out on AC a lot.
Mechanically, it has been vastly superseded by the Slayer class.

[Seerow]

Sorry, but I can absolutelly not agree with you on this.
The most basic advice we tend to give to fledgeling bookish types of casters it to get an crafting feat and start moving the slew of utility spells over to scrolls and potions, to have options at hand.
Now I've nearly never seen any kind of planned build where WBL was set aside to actually accomplish that, as well as actually paying for your spellbook and stuff. But the basic assumption is always thrown around that they donit and the stuff is availlable.
If we stick with this assumption, then we can also assume that a Fighter or similiar class has all those little potions and stuff at hand when he needs a bit of magical backup. Or handwave the argument in the same way we do with wizards, simply assuming that it can be crafted/brewed at will and will be availlable without a hassle.

Besides that, outfitting a PF Fighter, what we're talking about right now, can be wither expensive or surprisingly cheap, if we simply take into account whether a wiz/clr are at hand for buffing or not.

First, no caster is ever going to waste gold on a potion. Scrolls and Wands are much more cost effective, and on top of that Scrolls have no level cap. Compare that to Potions which cost twice as much as an equivalent scroll, and get capped at 3rd level spells, plus are pretty restrictive as to which spells you can use in a potion.... trying to say a Fighter can be outfitted exactly the same as a Wizard is just silly.

Second, even in the best case scenario, where you have a friendly caster who is somehow providing you with GMW, Magic Vestment, and maybe even some equivalent spell for saving throws, the Fighter is still going to be sinking a ton of money into weapons and armor that a caster just isn't going to spend. And every gp a Fighter spends on his weapon or armor is a gp that as you point out the Wizard is spending on getting an ever increasing number of options, or new toys to make his existing options even better. The Fighter in 3.PF is at a very real gear disadvantage, and if you don't have the support of casters in your party buffing you every day, and have to cover the basics with your gold, it's far worse.


Something I'm quite curious is the hype still given to the Lore Warden. Please so tell me why that is. The Archetype is terrible in the defensive department and loses out on AC a lot.
Mechanically, it has been vastly superseded by the Slayer class.

Lore Warden is great because it takes away relatively little compared to what it gives. Yes you lose Armor Training and heavy armor proficiencies, but AC is generally a weak defense in 3.PF, and at the levels where AC is most important you generally can't afford the heavy armor yet and armor training hasn't kicked in yet.

In exchange for the armor proficiency and armor training, you're gaining 2 extra skills, free Combat Expertise, +8 to all combat maneuvers (this is effectively the same as being treated as colossal in PF, it's a really nice bonus), +2 to hit/damage against creatures you have a good knowledge check on, the ability to negate a crit with a skill check (this alone is a better defensive advantage in actual play than heavy armor + armor training), and auto confirm crits.

I'd make the trade off for the 2 skill points and bonus to combat maneuvers alone. But when you add in the pseudo-knowledge devotion mechanic, crit stuf, and free combat expertise? It's really a great deal. And then you compare it to other Archetypes that give up the same ability and nothing else, and find that they are generally lacking (the only two I could find are Trench Fighter and Dervish of Dawn. Ever heard of either of those archetypes? I hadn't either. And after looking at them I understand why.)

[Azoth]

Okay, so here is a build thrown together half asleep and rather half baked, so bear with it.

Human Myrmidon Martial Master Lore Warden Fighter 9

Stats lvl 1: 25PB

Str: 18 (16 base +2 racial)
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 14
Cha: 9

Put all LVL UPs into STR. Raise other attributes with the proper belt/headband.

Feats:
Lvl1: Power Attack
Human: Improved Unarmed Strike
Fighter 1: Point Blank Shot
Lore Warden 2: Combat Expertise
Lvl 3: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 4: Martial Charge
Lvl 5: Weapon Focus
Lvl 7: Extra Grit
Fighter 8: Improved Critical
Lvl 9: Critical Focus

Skills that are Maxed out 8 total: Perception, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Stealth, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Know (any), Know (any).

Traits: Unorthodox Method (Silver Crane), Pick one.

Main Disciplines to focus on are Silver Crane for healing, Tempest Gale for Ranged maneuvers, and any other...probably Iron Tortoise (good counters).

I recommend the basic Scimitar, Heavy Shield, and chain shirt at low levels for melee and a Mighty Composite Longbow (when affordable) for range.

By level 2 you have every entry prereq feat, so at 5th level when Martial Versatility comes online you can jump right in with the next feat in the chain.

This build comes with a base 8 skill points per level, and with the basic array I gave, you can easily fill face duty and scout duty, and take some of the knowledge load off the party wizard.

Thanks to Iron Tortoise you can shield block attacks/spells, Tempest Gale let's you contribute damage/control at range, and with Silver Crane...no one should die easily.

[Tuvarkz]

Alternatively, you could pick up Silver Crane as part of the Martial Tradition (Being good-aligned isn't that hard), and pick up one of the many disciplines that allows for cone/line/burst strikes (Elemental Flux comes to mind, with a flying stance that is far more flexible than Silver Crane's); that allows to teleport into melee and attack (Veiled Moon), or to make a melee attack at range(Mithral Current); and just drop bows entirely, keeping Tempest Gale if you want to keep Sleight of Hand in-class

[Dusk Eclipse]

Elemental flux needs the Tap Animus feat to be useful though, most of it's maneuvers are balanced around the augmentation and they are blatantly supernatural which might not be what one wants when playing a fighter.

[Tuvarkz]

Elemental flux needs the Tap Animus feat to be useful though, most of it's maneuvers are balanced around the augmentation and they are blatantly supernatural which might not be what one wants when playing a fighter.

Silver Crane is also Su, though(Although the blinding maneuvers could be reinterpreted as Ex). Also, iirc the Elemental Flux maneuvers got rebalanced around not being that reliant on Animus anymore, as well as the fact that since you can discard bow feats, you can use the spare feats to pickup Tap Animus if so you wish.

[Azoth]

You could always ditch Extra Grit for Tap Animus, and then Martial Flexibility an Advanced Study or Martial Training to get the flux maneuver you need right then.