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TheDon
2007-06-01, 11:17 AM
Hello everyong, I'm DMing a mid-high level game and having some troubles with a "rogue".

I don't have the character sheet infront of me so I don't have all the details but essentialy he started with rogue, then went for Shadow Dancer for a level and then psychic theif.

His strategie is to drop something like 10 darts on the ground, followed by hiding in plain sight on the first turn and then to "throw" those darts using telekinesis. I did the mistake of ruling in that the target is flat footed since he doesn't see where the attack comes from (don't know if it's the right ruling or not, please input) and thus granting him sneak attacks if the target is within 30'.

Another thing I'm fuzzy on is if that attack causes the rogue to come out of hiding, so far I've ruled it doesn't as he technicaly doesn't target anyone, just an object. (May possibly and most probably have shot myself in the foot with that one)

And so I'm turning toward the endless D&D knowlage database this forum represents to find a solution to the problem, I'm not looking to kill the rogue or anything that drastic, nor do I want to have to rely on undead and construct just to balance him out. Chances are I just made a wrong call with one of those 2 rules, however if I haven't, is there a way to bring him out of hiding in order to fight?

Ulzgoroth
2007-06-01, 11:23 AM
If they can see the darts planted in the ground, they shouldn't be flat-footed against those darts being thrown at them. At least, not after the first one. (I speak of commonsense, but the rules seem to not contradict that I can see...)

NullAshton
2007-06-01, 11:25 AM
First off.... someone is only flatfooted when they haven't acted in combat yet. Said person wouldn't be flatfooted. Second, it's a spell, thus there would be verbal components. If he's casting it normally, that is. Third, the darts aren't hidden, thus said enemy would be able to react to the darts just fine.

KoDT69
2007-06-01, 11:30 AM
I may be mistaken, but I doubt that telekenesis could be effective enough to propel a dart at the proper speed to deliver a decent attack. If the dart only moves as fast as a character can carry it, then it could do like 1d2 I guess :smallyuk:

As a side note, never be afraid to call a player on something. It's your game, and you have the final say. If he's being cheesey, let him know that's what he's doing and it won't fly, especially in every fight. His build has so much better potential anyway, why waste it on darts? Well, I mean other than the "every attack is a sneak attack" crap he's pulling...

Yechezkiel
2007-06-01, 11:32 AM
First off.... someone is only flatfooted when they haven't acted in combat yet...

or surprised, balancing, climbing...

I'm guessing he was thinking they were surprised from each attack.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 11:38 AM
Every attack is a sneak-attack? Ring of Blur/Displacement. Done.

As for being a spell, it's not. He's a Psychic Rogue, so it's a power. It doesn't have a verbal component, and is an entirely mental action. As such, the Rogue would not be revealing himself by attacking with his darts.

However, as long as the person being attacked knows he's being attacked(IE: Rolling initiative or being hit with a dart the first time), then he's no longer flat-footed(after he acts, or after the first dart).

If you don't want to deal with this sort of thing anymore, then just put them up against a few Barbarians with Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge. Him being invisible is no longer relevant. Or pit him against a Wizard who happened to prepare glitterdust that morning.

Really, it's a cute trick, but after the first time it's pulled it's really no longer a viable tactic unless he's the Chaotic Evil type who doesn't let anyone ever escape.

Vik
2007-06-01, 11:47 AM
As been said, the darts are not hidden, so no sneak attack bonus for being invisible.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 12:09 PM
Reasonably, you get that one shot. Cause, honestly, who expects darts to just jump up and shoot at you? After that, no, you don't keep getting sneak attack.

Mr Croup
2007-06-01, 12:12 PM
As for being a spell, it's not. He's a Psychic Rogue, so it's a power. It doesn't have a verbal component, and is an entirely mental action. As such, the Rogue would not be revealing himself by attacking with his darts.

Well, I'm assuming the player in question is using the power Telekinetic Thrust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticThrust.htm), in which case while it doesn't have an auditory display, it does have a visual display, which would hamper the rogue's ability to hide somewhat, as the display would lead back to him.

As far as the legality of all this, I'd say that as long as he successfully remains hidden, which may only be for the first attack, he should be getting sneak attack damage. If he successfully hides in plain sight each round after he makes an attack, then the sneak attack bonus would apply the next round as well. But in this situation, you may want to apply the "Sniping" rules under the Hide skill description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm).

Of course, at that point, you have to rule whether or not the sniping rules apply, since he isn't actually throwing the darts. Per RAW though, it would seem to indicate that the sniping rules would apply here, since it states:

If youíve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

And Telekinetic Thrust does require the manifester to make a ranged attack roll.

Right, I don't know if any of that was actually helpful, or just a convoluted mess.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 12:13 PM
Yeah. You have made a bad ruling here. Just fess up to it and explain that the Character is either Attacking or he isn't. If he is, then the results are obvious. If he isn't, well, he shouldn't be getting Sneak Attack Bonus Damage in the first place...

TheDon
2007-06-01, 12:13 PM
First of all, I want to thank you all for the help, here's some input on some of the replies


If they can see the darts planted in the ground, they shouldn't be flat-footed against those darts being thrown at them.

I rulled out the flat footed for the attacks due to the surprise, because if the target watches the stacks of darts, he'll just use something else (like a rock behind the target), even if it only does 1d2, it's still 1d2 + 6d6 for the sneak attack, the base damage doesn't realy matter at this point. (I also beleive telekinesis usable to give an object that's lighter then 5 pound a sharp trust, but I could be mistaken)


His build has so much better potential anyway, why waste it on darts?

On the rogue's defence, he didn't go for that build with the entent to be cheezy, he went for it for the fluff (thought it'd be cool to throw darts arround) and stumbled on the cheesiness of it.


If you don't want to deal with this sort of thing anymore, then just put them up against a few Barbarians with Uncanny/Improved Uncanny Dodge. Him being invisible is no longer relevant. Or pit him against a Wizard who happened to prepare glitterdust that morning.

those would definitivly work for the type of campaign, but I can't realy throw barbarians or mages at every encounter (especialy since this is a city game). Also the rest of the party would probably get mad at me for all the glitters and the amount of blind party members (someone alwais rolls a one :P).

however if the target isn't concidered surprised from every attacks it does effectivly remove the sneak attack.

barawn
2007-06-01, 12:15 PM
is there a way to bring him out of hiding in order to fight?

Round 1, Rogue: Rogue drops darts, hides.
Round 1, Enemies: walk over and pick up darts.

Problem solved.

I actually don't have a problem with either of the two rulings. To be honest, he can respond with "hide, then drop the darts in random places." At that point, I'd be hard pressed to say he's doing anything wrong at all.

For those who disagree with the ruling, keep in mind - don't think of it as an attack. It's a sneak-attack spell. If he had Still Spell and Silent Spell, there's no reason a hidden Rogue/Wizard couldn't make a Telekinesis sneak attack while hidden and remain hidden.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 12:19 PM
Yeah, but the targets are not actually Flat Footed or Flanked by the Rogue after the Surprise Round, so the Sneak Attack Damage just shouldn't apply. The ruling is the problem, not the tactic.

barawn
2007-06-01, 12:22 PM
however if the target isn't concidered surprised from every attacks it does effectivly remove the sneak attack.

The target isn't surprised, however, the rogue is concealed the entire time, so the opponent would be denied their Dex bonus to AC relative to him - which means yes, sneak attacks should work.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 12:24 PM
Matthew, they're flat-footed. You get your sneak-attack dice against flat-footed opponents.

And it's not a spell, it's a power. Completely different mechanics at work.

As for the visual display, manifesting without a display isn't too hard, and Telekinetic Thrust has a 100 ft range. He could easily be well away from the darts and still fire them accurately.

And since it's a city based campaign, that makes mage enemies more prevalent, not less. After enough blinded parties, he should get the message.

EDIT: Barwarn: That's irrelevant. The rogue isn't doing the attacking, the darts are. Ergo, being flat-footed to the rogue is meaningless when it's the darts they have to dodge.

Theodoxus
2007-06-01, 12:26 PM
The advice regarding the rules are well and good, except that it's been houseruled into a shady area. For the sake of the game, I suggest not going back on them - it makes you look poorly, and it isn't a gamebreaking situation.

I would turn to those things that keep sneak attack from happening. As mentioned, Undead, Constructs or Barbarians within 4 levels of the rogue will be outright immune. Fortification effects on armor will help as will concealment and displacement.

Anything that negates the hiding - high spot checks, see invisible, true seeing, etc.

Once the player has encountered various counters to his tactic - not every time, you want him to feel clever too - he will probably come up with different ways to generate that sneak attack damage. Part of the challenge of DMing is to allow your players to grow along with their characters. Being a one trick pony, while effective, gets boring for everyone. Allow him to naturally evolve, picking up more strategies to defeat your npcs.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 12:29 PM
Matthew, they're flat-footed. You get your sneak-attack dice against flat-footed opponents.

What exactly is the rule that indicates they are Flat Footed? I cannot see one in the Hide Skill description with regards to Sniping, nor in the Sneak Attack description.

As far as I can tell, this is a bad House Rule. Of course, if he were Invisible that would be another matter.

silentknight
2007-06-01, 12:31 PM
I would say that TK thrust doesn't use enough precision to allow sneak attack damage period, on top of whether the target is flat-footed, surprised, whatever.

Tyger
2007-06-01, 12:32 PM
Yup, looks to me like the majority (the yes he can crowd) is giving the right answer here. And at the end of the day, ask yourself one question... does it matter? Sure, he is getting a tonne of sneak attacks, but so will any reasonably competent rogue. If it isn't the Ring of Blinking, its a good tumble skill and a fighter to flank with, a single casting of Greater Invisibility courtesy of the wizard. Or a Bag of Tricks, a Wand of Summoning, etc, etc. Heck, he could be pulling it off all on his own with a dagger and his Hide in Plain Sight.

Sure, he's dealing a fair amount of damage, but 1d4 + 6d6 (average 22ish)damage at the level he's at just isn't all that much (assuming when you said mid-high range you are talking 10-15ish). I'm sure the party warriors are doing more, and the arcane casters are well into their own here.

Of course, as I read that power, its 5 power points per dart (so he can sneak attack with each, otherwise it'd be 10d4 + 6d6 for the 10 darts all at once, averaging 42ish), so he's going to run low on power points if he's doing that constantly. Again, not a real problem.

Ditto
2007-06-01, 12:41 PM
If TK can make an attack, it can make a sneak attack. That said, the rules for sniping would force the new hide checks each round - it says if you make a ranged attack, you have to regain cover. He's making a ranged attack. You can't argue that *he's* not, it's the TK, so he'll have to suck it up and deliver a crazy good Hide roll.

As far as being out of sight, though, I think that should work. Hiding in Plain Sight dropping darts at the guy from 15 ft. away is obnoxious (and amusing, of course), but if you can hit a guy from darts and he doesn't know where you are (say, 100 ft. away under a blanket spying out a window), then that would be good enough for me.

Actually, I lie... a ranged attack is a ranged attack. So long as you're attacking, you lose your -20 to Hide. Even *if* you're 100 ft away and lobbing darts with TK. Must be some giant glowing marquee that lights up over your head... bad deal, that...

Yvian
2007-06-01, 12:42 PM
I would say that TK thrust doesn't use enough precision to allow sneak attack damage period, on top of whether the target is flat-footed, surprised, whatever.

I would.

However, in order to sneak attack the rouge must bye able to closely observer the target - which means they must be within 30 ft [normaly range for a ranged sneak attack] - and the darts must come from their general direction [you can't see the backside of your foe]. Which means your foes will be looking in your general direction. Mind you - hide in plain sight will work - but it is no longer a free lunch. There is a chance you will be seen because people will be looking for you.

I might also rule that darts are like Shuriken - When you throw 3 shuriken you get one and only one sneak attack.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-01, 12:43 PM
What exactly is the rule that indicates they are Flat Footed? I cannot see one in the Hide Skill description with regards to Sniping, nor in the Sneak Attack description.

As far as I can tell, this is a bad House Rule.

Ok, let me rephrase. He's denied his DEX bonus to AC, and as such is suspectible to sneak attack damage. For all intents and purposes for people who don't want to argue semantics, he is flat-footed.

Mr Croup
2007-06-01, 12:45 PM
As for the visual display, manifesting without a display isn't too hard, and Telekinetic Thrust has a 100 ft range. He could easily be well away from the darts and still fire them accurately.

In regards to the range, I'm with you, so long as the darts are within 30 ft range. Outside of that, no sneak attack damage.


EDIT: Barwarn: That's irrelevant. The rogue isn't doing the attacking, the darts are. Ergo, being flat-footed to the rogue is meaningless when it's the darts they have to dodge.

This I'm not so sure on, as the rogue is making a ranged attack roll with the darts by way of the power. This is the fuzzy piece of the equation for me, and could actually impact the range issue as well.


What exactly is the rule that indicates they are Flat Footed? I cannot see one in the Hide Skill description with regards to Sniping, nor in the Sneak Attack description.

As far as I can tell, this is a bad House Rule.

Matthew, the rules are little vague here, or at least not clearly laid out. However, if we look at this section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise) in regards to "unaware combatants," basically each time the rogue successfully hides, his location is now unknown to the target, which would render the target unaware, and he would be denied his dex to AC. At least, that's what I gather from it, but again, it's a little convoluted.


I would say that TK thrust doesn't use enough precision to allow sneak attack damage period, on top of whether the target is flat-footed, surprised, whatever.

I just have to disagree with this, as it isn't indicated or implied anywhere in the rules. You make a ranged attack roll when using this power, just like you would if you were throwing a dagger or firing a hand crossbow, so why should it be any less precise? If it's something that you would want to house rule that way, that's one thing, but it doesn't have support by RAW, at least in my opinion.

EDIT: Holy simu-ninjas! At least now I definitely don't feel alone in my thoughts on the matter any longer.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 12:48 PM
And where does it say that, then? The only reference I can find is the Invisible Condition. What am I missing?
[Edit]


Matthew, the rules are little vague here, or at least not clearly laid out. However, if we look at this section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#surprise) in regards to "unaware combatants," basically each time the rogue successfully hides, his location is now unknown to the target, which would render the target unaware, and he would be denied his dex to AC. At least, that's what I gather from it, but again, it's a little convoluted.



Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, youíre surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle donít get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

I don't think that says anything of the sort. In any case, you would have to House Rule it get the interpretation given by the OP.

Jasdoif
2007-06-01, 12:48 PM
And where does it say that, then? The only reference I can find is the Invisible Condition. What am I missing?I just found this in the FAQ (I was looking for something else, but didn't find it):
If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?

Yes.

The rules donít come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flat-footed, and thus deals sneak attack damage.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 12:54 PM
Ah well, then, fair enough. I don't think the Sage had this in mind when he wrote that, though. All the same, that's good enough for me. So, how exactly is this going to go, then?


If a rogue gets multiple attacks in a round (such as from
a high base attack bonus or the Rapid Shot feat), can she
make sneak attacks for all of them?
Yes, but only if each attack meets a requirement to be a
sneak attack. For instance, a rogue who flanks an enemy can
deliver a sneak attack with every melee attack she makes. A
rogue under the effect of a greater invisibility spell treats every
attack as a sneak attack, since she remains invisible despite
attacking.
If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement
to be a sneak attack, they arenít sneak attacks. For example, a
rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak
attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she
turns visible as soon as she makes the attack.

I'm thinking it's only going to apply on the first attack?

Jasdoif
2007-06-01, 01:04 PM
The rules on sneak attacks with spells state that you only get sneak attack once even if the cast involves multiple attack rolls. Since there's no ruling for powers, I would say that powers follow the same rules, so you only get sneak attack once per manifesting.

Since you're making an attack roll, this definitely breaks hiding. If you intend to remain hidden, you'll need to make a Hide check at -20 after the attack to do so.

Mr Croup
2007-06-01, 01:06 PM
I'm thinking it's only going to apply on the first attack?

Definitely. Besides which, each round the rogue can't use Telekinetic Thrust multiple times anyways, at least not without using something that will given them extra actions in a single round.

EDIT: Scratch that, missed that whole bit about number of objects effected being equal to manifester level.

But, if the rogue does succeed on their hide check using hide in plain sight, they'll be able to repeat the procedure next round, and the round after that as long as they successfully stay hidden.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 01:09 PM
I don't think he needs to, the Power allows him to shoot multiple objects in one use, depending on Manifester Level:


Telekinetic Thrust
Psychokinesis
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target or Targets: One or more objects or creatures with a total weight of 250 lb. or less
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates or Will negates (object); see text
Power Resistance: Yes or Yes (object); see text
Power Points: 5

You can affect one or more objects or creatures by concentrating your mind upon, sending them in a deadly hail at your foesóor simply by hurling your foe! You can hurl one object or creature per manifester level (maximum fifteen separate targets), as long as all are within the powerís range and each is no more than 10 feet away from another one. Each object or creature can be hurled a maximum distance of 10 feet per level.

You must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Hurled weapons deal their standard damage (your Strength bonus does not apply; arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects deal damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds of weight (for less dangerous objects such as an empty barrel) to 1d6 points per 25 pounds of weight (for hard, dense objects such as a boulder).

Creatures are allowed Will saves (and power resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by this power.

If you use this power to hurl a creature against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

Augment
For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target or targets increases by 25 pounds.

[Edit] Damn, beaten to punch :smallwink:

Sure, he could do the same with a Bow, though.

Damionte
2007-06-01, 01:17 PM
And it's not a spell, it's a power. Completely different mechanics at work.

The "Mechanics" for spells and powers are not different. They're exactly the same. The only difference between them is rather you're using spell points or spell slots. In most other factors they work exactly the same way.

Only other difference is that some feats like metapsionic or metamagic work for thier side alone. Has no impact though on how spells and powers interact with the rest of the D&D world.

ravenkith
2007-06-01, 01:20 PM
Don't forget to apply the ammunition rules for darts.

barawn
2007-06-01, 01:22 PM
EDIT: Barawn: That's irrelevant. The rogue isn't doing the attacking, the darts are. Ergo, being flat-footed to the rogue is meaningless when it's the darts they have to dodge.

The rogue is doing the attacking. He's the one with the attack roll. The darts just happen to be taking a very odd (and delayed) path from his hand to the target. Also, flat footed implies more than what's going on here. You're denied Dex to AC when facing a foe with total concealment - not flat-footed.

Still, even if you want to maintain the "the darts aren't concealed, therefore he's not denied his Dex," it doesn't matter. The rogue could always hide the darts afterwards, and then you're back to the same problem.

Tyger
2007-06-01, 01:26 PM
I don't think he needs to, the Power allows him to shoot multiple objects in one use, depending on Manifester Level:

[Edit] Damn, beaten to punch :smallwink:

Sure, he could do the same with a Bow, though.

Exactly. Any rogue with HiPS and a longbow could do exactly what this bloke is doing, so long as he stays within range, and actually do more damage, as the bow would allow him not only his Sneak Attack damage, but also higher base damage (d8 vs d4) and allow him to use his STR bonus (in the case of a composite bow) and any enchantments on the bow or arrows.

While you can throw multiple items, its still costs 5 PP per standard action that you use it. So as I noted above, if he's only throwing one dart per round, then he's using 5 PP per round. As opposed to our archer, who delivers more damage and only need to nock another arrow. Which he just might be able to recover for the next fight.

All in all, this is not only not unbalancing, its actually sub-optimal.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 01:27 PM
He doesn't even really need to lie them on the ground. They can be on a holster for all the difference it makes. As I understand it, he just has to be able to see them and the creature(s) targeted whilst remaining hidden.

Orak
2007-06-01, 01:32 PM
As far as I can see you have house ruled yourself a minor problem that you need to house rule away to rebalance a character. I personally wouldn't have allowed a continuous sneak attack with 10+ attacks, or I would have nerfed it as soon as I realized my mistake (you are only a DM, you can make mistakes but you can fix them just as easily). Here are a few of the things that you can do to remedy the situation (some are taken from previous posts to give a comprehensive list)

The rogue needs to be within 30 feet to be able to sneak attack their opponents. (Sneak attack is based on being able to percieve the vital areas of an opponent, the distance the darts are from the target is irrelevant). There are lots of abilities that can detect a sneaking rogue (check up Scent, a lot of creatures have it).

Sneak attack damage is only useful against certain opponents, undead, constructs, oozes, barbarians and a whole host of other baddies are immune to sneak attack.

Intelligent creatures will be able to think their way around this problem. When they watch a rogue drop a bunch of darts and then the darts "magically" hurl towards them, they can react as an intelligent creature would. Pick up the darts, move away from the darts, move around a corner, hide the darts with something, etc.

The rogue still needs to find cover to be able to hide in. Hide in plain sight allows you to dissapear from view, but you still require cover to move into.

For an intelligent creature, once they have been attacked by a pile of flying darts, they are now aware of them as a threat, so would not be flatfooted. The rogue is only manifesting the power, the darts are the ones attacking the opponent. If the rogue was the souce of the attack (and therefore an invisible attacker) then he would become visible when he made his attack or he would have to use the sniping rules.

I can see this tactic being sound as an initial attack in a combat (or perhaps against an unintelligent opponent), but against an intelligent opponent, the flat footed aspect would dissapear after the first attack. Intelligent ones would tell their friends too. An unintelligent creature would figure it out but would probably not inform his companions of the threat. As for switching to different objects to throw, direction is irrelevant. Attacking from a different direction (even from behind) does not deny a dex bonus.

I personally would have no problem with a player getting an initial attack with this power (there are other ways of going about it that give the same results. Check up Master Thrower). They would get an 10d4 + 60d6 intitial attack against one opponent, assuming everything hits. Telekenetic thrust states that the thrown weapons deal base damage so there would be no enhancement bonuses to this. Even with 18 intelligence they would only have a +14 to hit, so most armored opponents of similar level would only get hit half the time. This drops the damage down to 5d4+30d6 damage to one target. This gives you an average of 117 damage, once per combat. On top of this a high AC opponent would be almost immune to this attack. It is quite easy for a warrior, priest, etc to have 30+ac at 15 level. That would knock the number of hits way down.

In conclusion, I would just allow this attack to work once per combat. This would make it a single devastating attack, as opposed to an annoying pile of cheeze which is giving you a headache.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 01:34 PM
Well, as we have just been discussing there are several problems with that interpretation.

Tyger
2007-06-01, 01:35 PM
They would get an 10d4 + 60d6intitial attack against one opponent, assuming everything hits. Telekenetic thrust states that the thrown weapons deal base damage so there would be no enhancement bonuses to this. Even with 18 intelligence they would only have a +14 to hit, so most armored opponents of similar level would only get hit half the time. This drops the damage down to 5d4+30d6damage to one target.

Out of curiousity, where are you drawing these numbers from?? Even throwing 10 darts all at once will only do 10d4 + 6d6 Sneak Attack. The Sneak Attack damage is NOT mulitplied by the number of items hurled / shot.

And they aren't so much problems with the interpretation, as they are rulings from the FAQ... for what the FAQ is worth anyway. :smallsmile:

Orak
2007-06-01, 01:48 PM
I missed the post from Jasdoif while I was typing out my novel. I didn't see that when I read through the eratta. That makes the extra sneak attack damage fairly minor and eliminates the need to change the house rules that have been put into place.

10d4 + 6d6 once per round is not wreck anything in a decent level campaign.

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-01, 01:49 PM
Out of curiousity, where are you drawing these numbers from?? Even throwing 10 darts all at once will only do 10d4 + 6d6 Sneak Attack. The Sneak Attack damage is NOT mulitplied by the number of items hurled / shot.
each dart gets its own attack roll.

Quietus
2007-06-01, 02:04 PM
each dart gets its own attack roll.

Yep. But when multiple attacks are made at once, only the first one gets to apply precision damage; See Manyshot for confirmation.


Telekinesis costs 5 PP per manifestation, so every time he tries this trick, he's blowing 5 PP. How many does he have total? He'll run out fairly quickly, and since he's only applying his sneak attack damage to ONE dart per turn, that shouldn't be an issue.

Also, as noted, it has a visual display. You can make a Concentration check (I believe that it's 15+power level?) to stop that, though. If he isn't, then the visual display would give away his position, and he'd have to try for the sniping rules. If he wants to make the check, however, then why not let him remain hiding? Sure, the target takes one sneak attack per round, but that's gonna burn his PP's VERY quickly.

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-01, 02:05 PM
Yep. But when multiple attacks are made at once, only the first one gets to apply precision damage; See Manyshot for confirmation.
Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot) only uses a single attack roll.
Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot), on the other hand, gives each arrow its own roll, and allows precision damage to all of them.

Orak
2007-06-01, 02:09 PM
So it seems that we are back to the 10d4 + 60d6 damage and the need to restrict its application.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 02:12 PM
No, no. It has apparently to do with how Spells operate, not a single particular Feat. Regardless, once the first Attack Roll is made, the Character is visible and the next one does not benefit from Sneak Attack. The same may well be true for Greater Many Shot when used from a hidden position. Under Greater Invisibility, it's a different story.

LotharBot
2007-06-01, 02:16 PM
1) you can only sneak attack if you have a clear view of the target so you can actually aim at sensitive areas. That means the rogue needs to be within 30 feet AND the darts need to be coming from roughly the same direction, so that he can direct them appropriately.

2) If he's set the darts on the ground, the enemy should get a spot check to see any darts after the first one. At that point, he can see them coming if he succeeds on the check, and is therefore not denied his dex bonus -- he has no idea where the rogue is, but he does know where the attack is coming from and can dodge it.

3) If it's fair for the PC's, it's fair for the bad guys too. Any cheese your party uses, use back at them.

barawn
2007-06-01, 02:23 PM
No, no. It has apparently to do with how Spells operate, not a single particular Feat. Regardless, once the first Attack Roll is made, the Character is visible and the next one does not benefit from Sneak Attack. The same may well be true for Greater Many Shot when used from a hidden position. Under Greater Invisibility, it's a different story.

Making an attack roll doesn't kill concealment. It would kill invisibility, but this isn't invisibility (using the spell would break invisibility anyway). I can't figure out why anyone would think that a person would need to rehide after this. They're doing absolutely nothing to give themselves away.

As for the attacks, I agree with you. This isn't Manyshot, Greater Manyshot, a full-round attack, or anything else. It's attacking with a spell. That's all. And attacking with a spell gets you one sneak attack regardless of the number of attack rolls.


"With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack."

From Rules of the Game, All About Sneak Attacks (part 4).

Quietus
2007-06-01, 02:38 PM
Thank you for that quote Barawn; I got a little confused with my comment, but that was essentially what I was going for.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 02:41 PM
Making an attack roll doesn't kill concealment. It would kill invisibility, but this isn't invisibility (using the spell would break invisibility anyway). I can't figure out why anyone would think that a person would need to rehide after this. They're doing absolutely nothing to give themselves away.
That would be because the Character is treated as being invisible, according to the FAQ and according to the Hide Rules for 'Sniping' one shot reveals all. You could argue it the other way, but you would have to ignore the fact that the Rogue is making the Attack.

Person_Man
2007-06-01, 02:45 PM
I suggest going to the WotC website and reading the "All About Sneak Attack" articles. They clearly spell out everything you need to know, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040217a), here, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040224a) here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040302a), and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a).

Once you make an single attack role, you are no longer hidden (unless you're using Greater Invisibility). So Sneak Attack would only apply to the first attack.

If you try to Hide after making a ranged attack (Sniping), you take a -20 penalty to conceal yourself after the shot.

And even if you are hidden after the first attack, unless you're using Greater Manyshot, Sneak Attack is only applied once to any volley attack (Manyshot, Skiprock, Master Thrower tricks, multiple beam weapons, etc).

Also, there are a million different monsters that are immune to Precision damage.

Droodle
2007-06-01, 03:00 PM
A rogue coming out of hiding using greater manyshot would apply precision damage to all his shots, though, right? After that, he's got a move action he can use to activate his shadowdancer hide in plain sight ability so he can rinse and repeat, too, unless I'm mistaken. Since he's got hide in plain sight, would he still have a -20 to his hide roll after using greater manyshot?

barawn
2007-06-01, 03:02 PM
Once you make an single attack role, you are no longer hidden (unless you're using Greater Invisibility). So Sneak Attack would only apply to the first attack.

This is not an attack. It's a spell. Not an attack. Not sniping. Just a spell. Sniping specifically says "make a ranged attack" - and this is a spell, not an attack. The fact that the spell contains attack rolls is completely immaterial other than to allow for sneak attack damage.

I don't see anything, anywhere, about how casting spells breaks concealment (hiding). Anyone else?

Matthew
2007-06-01, 03:05 PM
Yes it is an Attack, because it uses 'an Attack Roll'. That's why you can apply Sneak Attack Damage to it in the first place.

Droodle: Not sure. On a strict reading, maybe not. I wouldn't have thought there was a problem until I started reading this Thread...

Jasdoif
2007-06-01, 03:07 PM
A rogue coming out of hiding using greater manyshot would apply precision damage to all his shots, though, right? After that, he's got a move action he can use to activate his shadowdancer hide in plain sight ability so he can rinse and repeat, too, unless I'm mistaken. Since he's got hide in plain sight, would he still have a -20 to his hide roll after using greater manyshot?Only if the rogue was using Manyshot to deliver the shots.

barawn
2007-06-01, 03:12 PM
Yes, because it uses 'an attack roll'. That's why you can apply Sneak attack Damage to it in the first place.

Making an attack roll is not the same thing as making an attack. An attack roll is a game mechanic. Even with invisibility, they had to qualify what they meant to include casting targeted spells. Sniping (under hide) did not.

I'd personally rule that spells with a visible tracer to the source are the equivalent of a sniping attack, but other than that, if a person's not making noise and not moving, I don't see why they would have to rehide.

Matthew
2007-06-01, 03:22 PM
It is not the same as taking the Attack Action, but making an Attack Roll is synonymous with making an Attack, I'm afraid. If you choose to interpret it differently, that's up to you.


Special Spell Effects
Many special spell effects are handled according to the school of the spells in question Certain other special spell features are found across spell schools.

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that donít damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves donít harm anyone.