Newbie Sorcerer 3.5 help

[Zeger]

Hi guys

I decided to play DnD for the first time and i've decided to run a sorcerer.I have been warned that he is not the best class to start with but i decided to do it anyway,so i would like some advices, since im new i wanted to build a damaging sorcerer but from what I've seen it might be better to pick up some utility spells as well i don't mind that as long as i am useful to my party and probably be able to handle my own for a while..my friends know that im new so they dont mind me doing some mistakes and trying to fix them...We are going to start from LvL 8 and with a good amount of extra starting gold could you please give me some suggestions for Feat's,spells,items and a general gameplay? Also stat priority(i rolled:12,12,15,16,13,12) and skills basically whatever you can contribute is highly appreciated haha.Thanks in advance

[nedz]

Here are a couple of (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=487) handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7229) which may help.

[Zeruel]

I simply LOVE Sorcerers! There are lots of options for them, so which books you have access to? :smallsmile:

[Zeger]

I simply LOVE Sorcerers! There are lots of options for them, so which books you have access to? :smallsmile:

Well my story begins in one of the largest magic schools in the kingdom and i have full access to their libraries so i am guessing i should access to some good books let me know what you have in mind and ill ask :P

[Zombulian]

Well my story begins in one of the largest magic schools in the kingdom and i have full access to their libraries so i am guessing i should access to some good books let me know what you have in mind and ill ask :P

Uh... Sorcerers don't learn through books. He was asking about D&D Sourcebooks.

[TheifofZ]

Well my story begins in one of the largest magic schools in the kingdom and i have full access to their libraries so i am guessing i should access to some good books let me know what you have in mind and ill ask :P

To rephrase what was asked; 'What resources are available to you, as a player, to build your sorcerer.'

To be honest, part of the reason most people are concerned is that, if this is your first time playing D&D, learning the rules for spellcasters, and spellcasting, can be both overwhelming.

[Âmesang]

Oddly enough my sorceress has a kind-of/sort-of similar backstory: she descended from a long-line of Suloise wizards and was expected to take the same path, but due to the nature of her birth and youth ended up as a sorcerer ("tsk, you actually needs books to cast your spells?") and decided to drop out of school… spending her time with the seedier side of society (explaining her alignment, extra weapon proficiencies, and manufacturing poisons with Craft [alchemy] via The Book of Vile Darkness… while also explaining the sorceress' lack of Knowledge skills and bonus feats 'cause, you know, she dropped out).

…and, technically speaking, having access to a wizardly library should give the character a chance to learn "strange, unusual spells" not normally found on the spell list in the Player's Handbook.

Regarding spells…


4th-level
shadow conjuration


3rd-level
dispel magic, haste


2nd-level
command undead, false life, invisibility


1st-level
feather fall, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, shield, unseen servant


0-level
arcane mark, detect poison, ghost sound, mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation, read magic


Quintessa had detect poison because her quasit familiar could detect magic at will, and shadow conjuration made for a nice catch-all at the time (though I eventually abandoned shadow spells because I imagined them causing a headache for the particular group I played with). Alternatively polymorph could be a good choice for versatility, or Evard's black tentacles for offense.

It'd probably be better to swap out unseen servant for something like endure elements, the latter worked in a pinch here and there ("how about we hang back and let the servant open the door?") and fit with the air-of-nobility the character was trying to go for.

Would wands of fireball or lightning bolt be too expensive at this level? If anyone else in the group handles dispel magic or haste you could always swap one of 'em out for something more offensive.

Regarding feats…
I'm a crazy big fan of familiars, as detrimental as they can be at times, so that's why I went with Improved Familiar (because having a demon familiar just feels awesome to me). That's just me, though.

As for something more sensible, now should definitely be the right time to have Extend Spell and/or Heighten Spell; the former is perfect for early play where you can get more use out of low-level spells like mage armor (16 hour duration should keep you going most of the day) and the latter I find better later in the game (such as influencing a dread wraith by heightening the 2nd-level command undead to a much higher slot). I find you really can't go too wrong with Eschew Materials in the off chance you lose your spell component pouch, plus it always made a good fit for the sorcerer's flavor in my mind.

Actually, if you have the skill points to spare, perhaps see if your DM will let you take the feat Skill Knowledge so as to make Use Magic Device a class skill? It should work wonders with your ever increasing Charisma and, besides… who's going to raise the cleric if he goes kaput? :smalltongue:

Also it might be a good time as any to plan out a future advancement into archmage, perhaps (which requires Skill Focus [Spellcraft] and Spell Focus in two schools of magic), since its High Arcana abilities should also grant further versatility to your repertoire. Granted, a number of them can now be replicated with feats like Reach Spell and Energy Substitution… but I do so love the class' name. It's probably my favorite prestige class, in all honesty.

Note…
Don't take all of this too seriously as I'll be the first to admit I still have a lot to learn about sorcerers (even after playing 3rd Edition on-and-off for the last decade), and a lot of the choices I made for my own character is based more on fashion than function or pure flavor than usefulness, and if such choices hinder my sorceress in someway… well then I guess she's just going to have to think of a way out and build some "character" in the process, ha ha…

[Zeruel]

To rephrase what was asked; 'What resources are available to you, as a player, to build your sorcerer.'

To be honest, part of the reason most people are concerned is that, if this is your first time playing D&D, learning the rules for spellcasters, and spellcasting, can be both overwhelming.

Eheh, good translation, didn't think to be misunderstood :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, it's quite difficult to learn how to play D&D starting from a pure spellcaster like a Sorcerer. So, Zeger, still want to?

[Zeger]

Eheh, good translation, didn't think to be misunderstood :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, it's quite difficult to learn how to play D&D starting from a pure spellcaster like a Sorcerer. So, Zeger, still want to?

Ye i just found out sorcerer's cant learn spells from books that's why :P well no i dont really access to books...But ye im not giving up my sorcerer in any case

[TheifofZ]

Ye i just found out sorcerer's cant learn spells from books that's why :P well no i dont really access to books...But ye im not giving up my sorcerer in any case

Alright then, here's the biggest question of all:
What kind of sorcerer do you want to play?
Like, how do you envision the character acting in and out of battle?
There are a LOT of options for spells to learn, and it's generally good, as a sorcerer to have some kind of idea on how you want to spend your time during battle and outside of it.

In general, in combat, spell selection for arcane casters boils down to:
Buffs: Make yourself and your allies bigger, better, and badder.
Battlefield Control: Keep your enemies locked down and unable to do much.
Debuffs: Make your enemies crappy and weaker.
Blasting: Explode your enemies. Melt your enemies. Leave craters. Make Torgue proud.

If you're stuck using Player's Handbook only, you're going to be limited in good feat and spell options, but I'm sure we can figure something out for you once we know the direction you want to take it.

[Zeruel]

Ye i just found out sorcerer's cant learn spells from books that's why :P well no i dont really access to books...But ye im not giving up my sorcerer in any case

Well, if you're going to the bottom of it I can assure you won't be disappointed :smallwink:

Sorcerers usually make good blasters (for their ability to modify spells "on the run", unlike wizards and core divine casters) and illusionists (these spells and their uses rely may find benefits from high Charisma, which is Sorcerers' prime stat).

For your ability scores, I'd put them like this:

Str 12 (you should not find yourself in the mid of fight, so you should dump this one, like all non-fighter classes)
Dex 15 (some may argue that spellcasters need more Cos than Dex because they already have low hp, but I'd prefer not to being hit at all, and that's what Dex determines... :smalltongue: )
Cos 13 (ALL characters need Cos, so make your mind about this and choose: Dex or Cos)
Int 12 (always useful, allows you to do many things, mostly outside of combat, but not "that" useful for you. I mean, you have magic on your side, after all... XD )
Wis 12 (almost same as above)
Cha 16 (boost always and ASAP, it determines if your spells will work on enemies)

As ThiefofZ said, as soon as you know what books you can use, we'll provide more info :smallsmile:

[Zeger]

Alright then, here's the biggest question of all:
What kind of sorcerer do you want to play?
Like, how do you envision the character acting in and out of battle?
There are a LOT of options for spells to learn, and it's generally good, as a sorcerer to have some kind of idea on how you want to spend your time during battle and outside of it.

In general, in combat, spell selection for arcane casters boils down to:
Buffs: Make yourself and your allies bigger, better, and badder.
Battlefield Control: Keep your enemies locked down and unable to do much.
Debuffs: Make your enemies crappy and weaker.
Blasting: Explode your enemies. Melt your enemies. Leave craters. Make Torgue proud.

If you're stuck using Player's Handbook only, you're going to be limited in good feat and spell options, but I'm sure we can figure something out for you once we know the direction you want to take it.

Well i always prefer to have a blaster Sorcerer..Take down my foes before they can look me in the eye :D..But i really dont mind having a mix of buffs-damage-battlefield control if it maxes my potential as a sorcerer it's still going to be fun to play for me and makes me an even more useful party member..With that being said do you think it is worth it to go for Archmage prestige class? I need to know before i use up my feat's because 2 of them must be spell focus on 2 schools(evocation and the other one i can't decide suggestions are welcome).Once again thanks in advance

[Zeger]

Well, if you're going to the bottom of it I can assure you won't be disappointed :smallwink:

Sorcerers usually make good blasters (for their ability to modify spells "on the run", unlike wizards and core divine casters) and illusionists (these spells and their uses rely may find benefits from high Charisma, which is Sorcerers' prime stat).

For your ability scores, I'd put them like this:

Str 12 (you should not find yourself in the mid of fight, so you should dump this one, like all non-fighter classes)
Dex 15 (some may argue that spellcasters need more Cos than Dex because they already have low hp, but I'd prefer not to being hit at all, and that's what Dex determines... :smalltongue: )
Cos 13 (ALL characters need Cos, so make your mind about this and choose: Dex or Cos)
Int 12 (always useful, allows you to do many things, mostly outside of combat, but not "that" useful for you. I mean, you have magic on your side, after all... XD )
Wis 12 (almost same as above)
Cha 16 (boost always and ASAP, it determines if your spells will work on enemies)

As ThiefofZ said, as soon as you know what books you can use, we'll provide more info :smallsmile:

Ye i have the same ability score as the one above :P and going to put the other 2 points in charisma obviously anyway could you explain to me what do you mean by modifying spells "on the run" ?..Actually what do you mean by modifying spells in general :P

[Red Fel]

Ye i have the same ability score as the one above :P and going to put the other 2 points in charisma obviously anyway could you explain to me what do you mean by modifying spells "on the run" ?..Actually what do you mean by modifying spells in general :P

Modifying may be a poor choice of term.

Basically, the Wizard has to prepare spells in advance. If he uses Metamagic ("modifying" the spell), that also has to be done in advance. By contrast, the Sorcerer can select spells as he needs them, using the same one repeatedly or cycling through a bunch, so long as he has the slots. Metamagic can also be applied as needed, rather than planned out in advance, although doing so extends the casting time.

In fact, Metamagic forms the core of one of the classic Sorcerer blaster builds, the Mailman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447435-quot-The-Mailman-A-Direct-Damage-Sorcerer-quot-%28from-Wizards-forums%29). The build uses a small selection of spells, modified by a specific list of Metamagic feats, for maximum guaranteed damage output.

EDIT: As a side note, you don't need to make two posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460292-Help-a-fellow-newbie-sorcerer) on a subject. One is generally sufficient. You might consider asking a Mod to combine the threads.

[Zeruel]

Well i always prefer to have a blaster Sorcerer..Take down my foes before they can look me in the eye :D..But i really dont mind having a mix of buffs-damage-battlefield control if it maxes my potential as a sorcerer it's still going to be fun to play for me and makes me an even more useful party member..With that being said do you think it is worth it to go for Archmage prestige class? I need to know before i use up my feat's because 2 of them must be spell focus on 2 schools(evocation and the other one i can't decide suggestions are welcome).Once again thanks in advance

I think it won't be a good choice... I mean, there are PrCs that fit a Sorcerer better than the Archmage to me (don't know why, but I always saw it as an upgraded Wizard, besides it could be a Sorcerer as well). If you have access to the Complete Mage book, I would go for a Nightmare Spinner, a fearful illusionist. Probably your mates would suggest you to use only what's in the Player Handbook and DM Guide because you're still a beginner, but after choosing to be a spellcaster from the start, there's not much that could overcomplicate your gaming experience, so ask your DM the permission to use other books as well :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Forgot to say: take metamagic feats like Maximize for firepower and Silent/Still spell for tactical advantages ;)

[Zeruel]

Modifying may be a poor choice of term.

Basically, the Wizard has to prepare spells in advance. If he uses Metamagic ("modifying" the spell), that also has to be done in advance. By contrast, the Sorcerer can select spells as he needs them, using the same one repeatedly or cycling through a bunch, so long as he has the slots. Metamagic can also be applied as needed, rather than planned out in advance, although doing so extends the casting time.

In fact, Metamagic forms the core of one of the classic Sorcerer blaster builds, the Mailman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447435-quot-The-Mailman-A-Direct-Damage-Sorcerer-quot-%28from-Wizards-forums%29). The build uses a small selection of spells, modified by a specific list of Metamagic feats, for maximum guaranteed damage output.

EDIT: As a side note, you don't need to make two posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460292-Help-a-fellow-newbie-sorcerer) on a subject. One is generally sufficient. You might consider asking a Mod to combine the threads.

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't sure if he knew about Metamagic so I generalized :smalltongue:

[Zeger]

I think it won't be a good choice... I mean, there are PrCs that fit a Sorcerer better than the Archmage to me (don't know why, but I always saw it as an upgraded Wizard, besides it could be a Sorcerer as well). If you have access to the Complete Mage book, I would go for a Nightmare Spinner, a fearful illusionist. Probably your mates would suggest you to use only what's in the Player Handbook and DM Guide because you're still a beginner, but after choosing to be a spellcaster from the start, there's not much that could overcomplicate your gaming experience, so ask your DM the permission to use other books as well :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Forgot to say: take metamagic feats like Maximize for firepower and Silent/Still spell for tactical advantages ;)

Well i will only have access to the core stuff so i am looking at the prestige classes in d20srd and i can only see archmage as a prestige class fit for a mage...If that's my only choice it might benefit me to not go for a prestige class.anyway

[nedz]

EDIT: As a side note, you don't need to make two posts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460292-Help-a-fellow-newbie-sorcerer) on a subject.

Yes, it gives the ninjas schizophrenia.


One is generally sufficient. You might consider asking a Mod to combine the threads.

Or you can just post a link from one to the other, and close that one.

[TheifofZ]

Well i will only have access to the core stuff so i am looking at the prestige classes in d20srd and i can only see archmage as a prestige class fit for a mage...If that's my only choice it might benefit me to not go for a prestige class.anyway

If you only have access to Players Handbook and DMs Guide, then don't bother taking Archmage; while you get moderate casting advancement in two classes, you completely give up the highest level spells in the game.
8th and 9th level spells are, compared to every other spell, almost always stronger by multiple times.
If you only want to do one thing, and do it well, (IE: blasting), then don't bother going into archmage, as it's better for people looking for sheer number of spell slots and spells available.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Err, I think you might be thinking of Mystic Theurge there, TheifofZ.

Core only, Archmage is the class to go for, although Arcane Trickster can work in some builds (you lose two casting levels, three if SA fighter isn't considered core), and Thaumaturgist is quite good.

[Zombulian]

If you only have access to Players Handbook and DMs Guide, then don't bother taking Archmage; while you get moderate casting advancement in two classes, you completely give up the highest level spells in the game.
8th and 9th level spells are, compared to every other spell, almost always stronger by multiple times.
If you only want to do one thing, and do it well, (IE: blasting), then don't bother going into archmage, as it's better for people looking for sheer number of spell slots and spells available.

"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

[Zeger]

Err, I think you might be thinking of Mystic Theurge there, TheifofZ.

Core only, Archmage is the class to go for, although Arcane Trickster can work in some builds (you lose two casting levels, three if SA fighter isn't considered core), and Thaumaturgist is quite good.

So its worth spending a second feat for spell focus to prepare for archmage ?

[ExLibrisMortis]

So its worth spending a second feat for spell focus to prepare for archmage ?
Yes. Conjuration and transmutation are probably the most powerful, and conjuration has the very powerful orb of acid blasty spell (and other orbs), which suits your character concept.

[Zeruel]

So its worth spending a second feat for spell focus to prepare for archmage ?

If then you are stuck on core PrC, yes (sorry for ya bro... :smallfrown: )


Yes. Conjuration and transmutation are probably the most powerful, and conjuration has the very powerful orb of acid blasty spell (and other orbs), which suits your character concept.

Aren't the "Orb" spells from Complete Arcane and, thus, not available?

[Âmesang]

I'd vote on Spell Focus (transmutation) just 'cause I like disintegrate and polymorph any object for their out-of-combat versatility (since I'm trying to avoid save-spells as much as possible for my own sorcerer).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Aren't the "Orb" spells from Complete Arcane and, thus, not available?
Yes, though I tend to read them in the Spell Compendium. I repeat:

Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
>.> why people insist on limited sources, I'll never know.Quotes don't count for message length.

[Zeruel]

(since I'm trying to avoid save-spells as much as possible for my own sorcerer).

I know that feel, when dice hate you...


Yes, though I tend to read them in the Spell Compendium.

Well, I admit I'd cheat too on that. :smallbiggrin:
Or at least I would ask to have access to SC for personal confort, since it's a book only about spells, and not rules, classes and equipment

[torrasque666]

>.> why people insist on limited sources, I'll never know.
Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.


Because since its his first time its an attempt to keep it simple? For first-timers its better to keep it simple, rather than "oh you should use these classes from sourcebooks X, Y, and Z, and these feats from M, N, and O, while taking advantage of special rules from campaign settings A and Q." and overwhelm them with information.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Even for a first-timer, it's better to load up the sorcerer with orb spells and a good PrC, than playing a straight sorcerer with PhB spells and archmage 5 at the end. Even better is to load up a warmage, beguiler or dread necromancer with orb spells (or thematic substitutions). Core is not newbie-friendly. It's not even player-friendly, compared to all of 3.5.

[torrasque666]

Even for a first-timer, it's better to load up the sorcerer with orb spells and a good PrC, than playing a straight sorcerer with PhB spells and archmage 5 at the end. Even better is to load up a warmage, beguiler or dread necromancer with orb spells (or thematic substitutions). Core is not newbie-friendly. It's not even player-friendly, compared to all of 3.5.
No, but its simple. That's my point. Less material to learn means less chance of overwhelming a new player and they can learn the rest at their own pace, rather than feeling like they have to come in knowing it all already.

[Zeruel]

No, but its simple. That's my point. Less material to learn means less chance of overwhelming a new player and they can learn the rest at their own pace, rather than feeling like they have to come in knowing it all already.

I kinda agree. My very first character was a Paladin, giving me enough time to practice the basic mechanics before being able to cast some simple spells like the paladin's ones (almost only buff and divination spells, and of course no ASF to deal with).

[LudicSavant]

Sorcerers don't need to be complicated or noncore to be good. Try spells like Stinking Cloud and Evard's Black Tentacles. Both kinda just win a lot of fights outright for you, without any need for combos or builds or anything like that.

[Âmesang]

Evard's cloud of stinking tentacles! Eh? Eh?

[nedz]

Evard's cloud of stinking tentacles! Eh? Eh?
So you wrote a string reverse function — it's not particularly hard to do.

[Âmesang]

What function? XÞ I just typed it backwards just to be silly.