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....
2007-06-01, 01:42 PM
In the game I'm running the characters just got level 3. As his new feat, the monk picked "Flying Kick" from the Complete Warrior, but we couldn't find the CW anywhere (we've got it, it was just misplaced) but I assumed he had the reqs and new how it worked.

Well, all of a sudden he's flying around doing 20+ points of damage to things. I was wondering if anyone had a description of what Flying Kick does and what its requirements are? It seems like he was adding 1d12 to his regular unarmed attack roll. I don't mind if thats what the feat does, I was just wondering.

Were-Sandwich
2007-06-01, 01:44 PM
He has to be charging when he makes the attack. Its really only any good if you can get pounce.

LeeMon
2007-06-01, 02:10 PM
Without quoting it directly, it's likely that he meets the prerequisites, as they're low and can be achieved by a monk at level 1.

That said, its benefit is to provide an additional 1d12 damage to an unarmed attack made while charging. If my math's correct, a monk with 14 Strength would be doing a maximum of 20 damage in this case: 1d6 unarmed strike + 1d12 Flying Kick + 2 Strength.

I'm probably missing some information, but you might ask how he's regularly coming to damage totals over 20.

Dizlag
2007-06-01, 02:10 PM
Someone linked an online Feats (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml) page the other day. Very helpful.

Here's Flying Kick (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Flying_Kick,CW). He should have the prerequisites at 3rd level only if he's got Power Attack as well though. And as Were-Sandwich said, he has to be charging.

Dizlag

Person_Man
2007-06-01, 02:17 PM
Flying Kick is actually a comparatively weak feat. You get an extra 1d12 points of damage on your unarmed attack when you charge. So that's an average of +6.5. And it has to be an unarmed attack, which means they're going to be a Monk (very weak) or a Swordsage (strong, but still lacking full BAB).

Compare that to:

Leap Attack: +3/-1 damage/BAB on a charge attack (or +4/-1, depending on how you read the errata). By itself, this very quickly surpasses the bonus from Flying Kick.

Headlong Rush: Double damage on a charge.

Battle Jump: Double damage on a charge.

Spirited Charge: Triple damage on a charge with a lance. Great for mounted halflings, Paladins, Knights, etc.

Catfolk Pounce: Grants Pounce.

Shock Trooper: Shift Power Attack BAB penalty to AC, basically ensuring that you hit and deal massive damage. Also grants a very useful Bull Rush+Trip combo that synergizes very well with reach weapons and/or Knockback.

Knockback: Free Bull Rush with every attack.

Knock-Down: Free Trip attack with every attack that deals 10+ damage.

Snap-Kick: Free unarmed attack whenever you make an attack (including standard actions or charges), all attacks take a -2 penalty.

And those examples are just off the top of my head. If a melee based class isn't dealing 50+ points of damage on a charge attack by 6th level, then the player hasn't bothered to read the feats that he can use in D&D, almost all of which can be read for free online. And even if a Monk is dealing that much damage at first level, so what? A Barbarian using Whirling Frenzy can easily hit with two attacks dealing an average of 15ish damage, before ANY feat is used with it.

Indon
2007-06-01, 02:29 PM
Hmm. Would Flying Kick grant that 1d12 damage with every attack as part of a pounce-enhanced charge?

Quietus
2007-06-01, 02:34 PM
Hmm. Would Flying Kick grant that 1d12 damage with every attack as part of a pounce-enhanced charge?

Probably, yes.

Person_Man
2007-06-01, 03:03 PM
Hmm. Would Flying Kick grant that 1d12 damage with every attack as part of a pounce-enhanced charge?

Yes. It might be a good idea for a Frostrager build using the Complete Champion Barbarian Pounce alternative (you lose Fast Movement, a great trade). But it's still worse then every other feat I listed, and probably others.

Indon
2007-06-01, 04:26 PM
Yes. It might be a good idea for a Frostrager build using the Complete Champion Barbarian Pounce alternative (you lose Fast Movement, a great trade). But it's still worse then every other feat I listed, and probably others.

It also synergizes with a number of them (such as the double damage charge), just as it does with the pounce capability.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-01, 04:42 PM
It also synergizes with a number of them (such as the double damage charge), just as it does with the pounce capability.

Oh, sure, take all those feats. You will have a grand total of one trick.

It's not a bad trick, as melee tricks go. But's it's certainly not the best trick for dealing damage in melee.

Rahdjan
2007-06-01, 05:30 PM
what book is pounce in?

Jack Mann
2007-06-01, 05:36 PM
Monster Manual.

As for ways to get pounce... Well, there are a lot. Easiest right now, apparently, is dipping a level of barbarian to get pounce, using the Complete Champion variant.

The_Snark
2007-06-01, 05:37 PM
what book is pounce in?

There is no Pounce feat, really. Barbarians using Complete Champion can exchange Fast Movement for Pounce at 1st level, I gather, and catfolk from Races of the Wild can get a feat that lets them make a full attack while charging flat-footed opponents. Aside from those, I believe you have to resort to spells/maneuvers/powers/racial abilities to get it.

Rahdjan
2007-06-01, 05:38 PM
Does Complete Champion have full details on what exactly it does cause I'm not really the DMing type so I don't own any monster manuals?

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-01, 05:41 PM
The pounce ability lets you make a full attack at the end of a charge, instead of a single attack.

....
2007-06-01, 06:04 PM
Without quoting it directly, it's likely that he meets the prerequisites, as they're low and can be achieved by a monk at level 1.

That said, its benefit is to provide an additional 1d12 damage to an unarmed attack made while charging. If my math's correct, a monk with 14 Strength would be doing a maximum of 20 damage in this case: 1d6 unarmed strike + 1d12 Flying Kick + 2 Strength.

I'm probably missing some information, but you might ask how he's regularly coming to damage totals over 20.


He's a half-orc.

Skyserpent
2007-06-02, 07:57 AM
He's a half-orc.

So that's +3 strength damage, right, well he might also be Power Attacking and maybe tossing in an Iron Fist or Flaming Fist or what have you. for another average of 3 damage, I can totally see him getting 20 damage. but honestly, Monks are not meant to be damage dealers. -------------long discussion on the purpose of life for monks----------------- anyhoo, it's a pretty good setup. but, NOT fantastic. he is probably doing it wrong.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-02, 09:33 AM
he is probably doing it wrong.

This came out in response to reading this. I apologize in advance, but I couldn't stop myself.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/ZeroNumerous/motivator2058602.jpg?t=1180795272

Skyserpent
2007-06-02, 09:41 AM
This came out in response to reading this. I apologize in advance, but I couldn't stop myself.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/ZeroNumerous/motivator2058602.jpg?t=1180795272

*is consumed by haha*

....
2007-06-02, 01:59 PM
So that's +3 strength damage, right, well he might also be Power Attacking and maybe tossing in an Iron Fist or Flaming Fist or what have you. for another average of 3 damage, I can totally see him getting 20 damage. but honestly, Monks are not meant to be damage dealers. -------------long discussion on the purpose of life for monks----------------- anyhoo, it's a pretty good setup. but, NOT fantastic. he is probably doing it wrong.


Er, +5, not three.

Indon
2007-06-02, 02:09 PM
Oh, sure, take all those feats. You will have a grand total of one trick.

It's not a bad trick, as melee tricks go. But's it's certainly not the best trick for dealing damage in melee.

Short of hulking-hurler or chain trip-knockdown-knockback cheese (which are both also one-trick methods), what deals more damage than a feat-enhanced full attack on a charge?

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 02:21 PM
A raging barbarian with a greatsword, Wild Talent, Power Attack and Deep Strike.

Indon
2007-06-02, 02:25 PM
I presume Deep Strike is some sort of psionic feat; unless, however, it does better than doubling damage, I really don't see how it outdoes charging with a couple charging-oriented feats.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 02:28 PM
Deep Strike turns melee attacks into touch attacks.

Edit: Wait, no. Deep Impact. Sorry.

Indon
2007-06-02, 02:39 PM
Deep Strike turns melee attacks into touch attacks.

Edit: Wait, no. Deep Impact. Sorry.

So the equivalent of a +4 enchantment in a feat. Not bad, but you could just get a Brilliant Energy weapon and do the same thing to everything but undead and constructs, and do it charging for even higher damage.

Not to mention, you still can't power attack for higher than your Base Attack Bonus, so after a point, you're just improving your chances to hit (which with, say, Shock Trooper, isn't even an issue).

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 02:55 PM
No, it's better than Brilliant Energy. Deep Impact makes the attack a touch attack. Brilliant Energy only ignores shield and armour bonuses to AC.

Brilliant Energy only works on things that wear armour. Deep Impact lets you hit a collosal gold dragon on a roll of 8.

Were-Sandwich
2007-06-02, 03:00 PM
But then you have to re-focus. Admittedly, if your opponent is nicely slcied in half on the floor, thats not much of an issue.

Yuki Akuma
2007-06-02, 04:50 PM
With the charging build you have to withdraw at least ten feet each time you charge, so it really balances out.

Khoran
2007-06-02, 04:55 PM
There is no Pounce feat.
Wrong! There is a pounce feat! Players Handbook II. It's called Two-Weapon Pounce

Sutremaine
2007-06-02, 07:15 PM
Wrong! There is a pounce feat! Players Handbook II. It's called Two-Weapon Pounce
Two-Weapon Pounce does not allow you to pounce. :smalltongue:

TWP = attack with two weapons at the end of a charge.
Pounce = make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Two-Weapon Charge would be a more accurate name for Two-Weapon Pounce.

Skyserpent
2007-06-02, 11:08 PM
Er, +5, not three.

+5 would require him to have had an 18 strength fromt he get-go, which is utterly ridiculous for a Monk unless he rolls fantastically well and gets his points in Wisdom and Dexterity in first. +3 would be if he had a reasonable 16 based on the aforementioned formula for getting to 20 damage...