Summoner

[Mr.Moron]

EDIT: It came to my attention it's not explicitly stated what the last page is for. They're cards for recording your manifestation stats. This should be pretty intuitive but I thought I'd call it out here just in case. They should fit on 3x5 index cards when printed if you're ever gonna play this class and into that sort of thing.


This thread is for feedback & commentary on the Summoner (http://blarmb.com/files/Summoner1stDraft.pdf) an entry for the Base Class Contenst I E5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457600-Base-Class-Contest-I-5E).

I'll provide some initial designer's notes on the current state. They're in a spoiler to keep post length down.

This class uses new spell progression. Obviously this is breaking the mold a bit but I wasn't happy with the idenity given to it by being either a full or half caster, it really did seem to want to live somewhere in the middle. I considered other solutions, like giving full spell progression but simply not leaning any spells over 7th level but this seemed inelegant. I'm open to hearing that this is a bad approach for whatever reason but I'm honestly stuck for alternatives. When using this class in multiclassing you can consider 3/4ths of it's levels for advancement of the chart (A 5th Level Wizard/8th level summoner has the spell slots of an 11th level caster on the multiclass chart).

If you find the (now meaningless) word "Imprint" anywhere in the document this is an editing mistake. The term has been removed from an earlier design and should now read "Manifestation" in all cases.
If you find the (now meaningless) term "Spirit" or "Mythic Spirit" anywhere in the document this is an editing mistake. The term has been removed from an earlier design and should now read "Avatar" in all cases.

Right now you can spam Minor Manifestations all day. While I do do have an eye on this as a potential problem point I'd be more open to solving it by adding further restrictions on what a Summoner can do while concentrting on a Manifestation rather creating conditions where they can't summon things, it is a summoner after all.

My biggest concern currently:

Summon Avatar is intentionally tuned to always be stronger than spells, maybe even sitting on top of the curve for raw ability power over all. That is the "Summon Avatar" abilities of a 20th-level summoner should feel competitive with a 9th-Level Spell for example. This is meant to be offset by them eating much more of your turn, while taking a long time to land and telegraphing themselves enough to be avoided. The expectation is that since creatures get a mental ping something is going down, and exactly where they can move to avoid it they'll do so. Landing these consistently should either require team play to constrict opponent movement, or opponents already backed into a corner so they're essentially "win mores".

All that said when you're messing with attack roll values and giving strong scaling, things can get out of hand. While I'm not attached to any of the numbers on any of the abilties and I'd happily back them down I think more restrictions might be the more interesting way to go if tuning is required, such as them eating some of your actions on the turn they come out or a "After using Summon Avatar you can't cast non-cantrip spells for 1 Hour". I'm also content simply trim the additional use/day available at 15.

Finally:
There are two entries on the chart "Master Summoner" and "Unchained Manifestation" that are currently not implemented.


Also as always I apologize for any poor phrasing or awkwardly worded sentences. I haven't done much of an editing pass yet.
EDIT: Also still WIP. For example there are only 6 Avatars right now. Since you can select 5, I intended for their to be 9-10 Avatars so that it's a bit more of a choice.

[Flashy]

I quite like the class in general (I was surprised by how well 3/4 casting seems to work), but I have a few questions/quibbles. If I don't comment on something assume I liked it.

I was going to say that I felt the system for unlocking and locking manifestations was cumbersome until I realized it's literally just maintaining a spells known/prepared list with a saving throw restriction. I actually really like it. That being said, I'm not sure how I feel about the summoner having to defeat literally any creature they want to manifest. You shouldn't have to murder an entire farmyard (several times over if the saving throws don't take) just so you can summon cats, chickens, rabbits, etc. It doesn't seem unreasonable to allow them to start with all the CR 0 beasts unlocked.

I also wouldn't be averse to seeing one or two levels where the summoner was allowed to simply choose a creature to unlock. It's not much of a buff and I don't think it's unreasonable to allow a player some very minor thematic control without requiring them to get all the way to the level 14 Myth Reading feature. Wanting to play an elemental themed summoner in a largely nature or undead centric campaign could get disappointing, for example. On the other hand this is sort of a built in sidequest, so if that's a design feature you like by all means keep it.

I'm a little confused on exactly how Manifestation Communication works. Is it sort of a diaphanous contact with the gestalt essence of rabbits or zombies or whatever, or is it like the Speak with Dead spell only instead of a corpse you target one of your unlocked creatures with no memories beyond the last time you summoned it?

Whose spell attack modifier/saving throw DC does Cantrip Investment use? If it's the creature's how do you decide what casting stat they use?

How would Spell Conduit interact with self-range concentration spells like Spirit Guardians? Does the conduit last until the end of your concentration?

[Mr.Moron]

Thanks for the feedback! It was very helpful.




I was going to say that I felt the system for unlocking and locking manifestations was cumbersome until I realized it's literally just maintaining a spells known/prepared list with a saving throw restriction. I actually really like it. That being said, I'm not sure how I feel about the summoner having to defeat literally any creature they want to manifest. You shouldn't have to murder an entire farmyard (several times over if the saving throws don't take) just so you can summon cats, chickens, rabbits, etc. It doesn't seem unreasonable to allow them to start with all the CR 0 beasts unlocked.



I also wouldn't be averse to seeing one or two levels where the summoner was allowed to simply choose a creature to unlock. It's not much of a buff and I don't think it's unreasonable to allow a player some very minor thematic control without requiring them to get all the way to the level 14 Myth Reading feature. Wanting to play an elemental themed summoner in a largely nature or undead centric campaign could get disappointing, for example. On the other hand this is sort of a built in sidequest, so if that's a design feature you like by all means keep it.


It is something of a design feature. It's meant to address a problem that comes with the mainline "Conjure" spells namely the nature of the argument of the "DM Chooses" vs "Player Chooses" dynamic that got settled in favor of "DM Chooses" by Sage Advice. The "Player Chooses" crowd wants full access to full assortment of creatures available to the spell at order, so they can use the ability to summon up appropriate tools for their situation. The "DM Chooses" side dislikes deep-dive cherry picking of monster lists and a PC who has lived their entire life in a desert from a people for which the ocean is only an inaccurate myth to summon up a boatload of sharks the first time they have an encounter by a lack.

I wanted to avoid these kind of feelings over the mechanic from both sides.I made it so the mechanics of how and why you can summon what you summon are baked into the fluff: You can summon things you've dealt with closely enough to build a blueprint from. This means that while the DM is in strict control of what blueprints are available (what encounters they put out, and what can/can't be learned as a manifestation in the setting) the player can pick off the menu they build from those blueprints at will.

You could argue that this isn't very different than "DM Chooses" but I'd argue it feels very different. That's one of the biggest reasons it's defeat rather than "Have Seen" or "Heard a Rumor About" is that it makes the the Manifestation feel "Earned". Your Pokemon-like collection of monsters isn't something the DM just handed out to you it's something you fought for, acquired and can now use however you see fit.

All that said I'm also not entirely satisfied with this either. I'm probably going to put in a clause that lets you examine willing creatures to gain manifestations and I like your CR-0 clause and will probably incorporate the idea. As for "I wanna be Fire Elemental Guy" in a campaign that otherwise doesn't use Fire Elementals... I can see the issue but it would not be on the top of my list of things to change. Part of the design is to prevent list cherry-picking. If I can think of a way to allow selective themes, without list cherry picking I'll include it.


I'm a little confused on exactly how Manifestation Communication works. Is it sort of a diaphanous contact with the gestalt essence of rabbits or zombies or whatever, or is it like the Speak with Dead spell only instead of a corpse you target one of your unlocked creatures with no memories beyond the last time you summoned it?

The idea is that you've created this magical blueprint for building a reproduction of the creature, which by necessity includes some element of their brain/thoughts. You can think of this as sort of going into your own mind and "Reading" the blueprint to try and understand the information contained in those thoughts with the entire process taking the form of a conversation with the creature the blueprint is meant to form. I agree the wording here doesn't get that across well at all and I'll re-work to be much clearer.



Whose spell attack modifier/saving throw DC does Cantrip Investment use? If it's the creature's how do you decide what casting stat they use?

It uses all of the casters properties except for level. This primarily to keep damage expressions in check because doubling your cantrip output would be kind of powerful. This way the extra cantrips are at most coming from a caster half your level, because a major manifestation can only have a CR half your summoner level. I can see how this unclear. I will clarify if the ability.



How would Spell Conduit interact with self-range concentration spells like Spirit Guardians? Does the conduit last until the end of your concentration?

It wouldn't. You shouldn't be able to cast these type of spells with it, good catch. I'll put a clause preventing this.

UPDATE
The biggest changes involve some language clarifications, some spell switches and a minor rework of how manifestations have been gained - including more detailed rules for starting manifestations. There are also 3 new avatars, two defensive one utility.


Editing checks (spelling, grammar) are especially welcomed as well as any wording that remains ambiguous.


EDIT: Ugh. There are few lines that read "Bonus Manifestation" please ignore these, they're text I forgot to remove from when I was fiddlng with a system where Avatars granted Manifestations as a means of selection. Also the 3rd level spell selection for The Seer of Ages is a copy/paste error. Will correct.

[cooldes]

sorry if this is a dumb question, but i understand avatars enter to do a single attack and then leave? i'm fine with this, my question is what does the avatar spell list mean/do?

[Mr.Moron]

sorry if this is a dumb question, but i understand avatars enter to do a single attack and then leave? i'm fine with this, my question is what does the avatar spell list mean/do?

They form your class spell list. This should be answered in the sections on Spell casting and Avatars. I'll quote the sections here for ease of reference, if they're confusing please let me know what about the text you're having difficulty parsing.


Spellcasting
Through careful study and mental focus you have learned how to tap into the magical energies of incredibly powerful creatures
allowing you to use arcane magic. See chapter 10 of D&D Player’s Handbook for the general rules of spellcasting.
The Summoner class spell list has no spells on it by default. Each time you gain the Avatar class feature you add the spells granted by
that Avatar to your class list. You must must still select these spells as spells known in order to cast them.



Avatar
Starting at 1st level you gain understanding of one Avatar chosen from the list at the end of this entry. You may add the spells it
provides to your class list and the cantrip it provides to your cantrips known. It also provides one effect that can be used with the
Summon Avatar class feature. You gain understanding of an additional avatar at your 5th,9th,13th and 17th summoner levels.
(NOTE: The names and stories given here for the Avatars are generic concepts. Your GM may wish to provide these Spirits with specific names and stories)

These means a first level summoner with a single avatar will have a class spell list consisting of (in this version of the document)

Three 1st level spells
Two 2nd level spells
Two 3rd level spells
One 4th level spell
One 5th level spell
One 6th level spell
One 7th level spell.

These are the spells they can select from when getting new "Spells Known" just like any other class list. As you gain more avatars your class spell list gets bigger and you can select from a wider variety of spells known. If you have other class features, magic items or mechanics that care about your class list(s) it'll refer to the the sum spells provided by the avatars you have so far.

This is why there is no "Summoner Class Spell List" to choose your spells known from in the pdf, that's determined by the Avatars you have. In general this means a low-level summoner will have a very, very narrow selection of spells to choose from so your first couple Avatars are really important for determining what you have available as they'll form the backbone of your spell list.

[Spiriah]

I really like this class - a more interesting take on Summoner than I've seen in some other 5e homebrew, and a different interpretation than the 3.PF Eidolon-using Summoner.

The 3/4 casting is a little odd, but I don't see a real problem there - besides, half casting would be too weak and full casting would be too strong, I think, considering the extra features the class offers.

One big issue I have with it is that it gives proficiency in Int and Cha saves - both of which are "bad" saves in that they're rarely called for. I know the class uses both Int and Cha, but every other class has one good save and one bad save, which is a pattern I don't think this class should break.

On a related point - I think that requiring that Summoners have effectively two main stats, one for each of their core class features, is a mistake. The Int/Cha division may make some thematic sense, but forcing Summoners to invest fairly heavily into two stats that don't offer much outside of powering those abilities just seems like a bad idea. I'd drop one of the two, have the other one cover what it did, and replace that save prof with Wisdom.

If you're set on the idea of Summoners with Int and Cha, maybe make it an option at first level to choose which is your spellcasting stat? That does give the class a lot of multiclass flexibility, though, which might be a bad thing.

Overall, though, I love the class. The Avatars are very cool, and it looks like they'd be easy to homebrew more of, though you may want to alter the way their damage scales. The subclass features could also use a little polish, I think, but I can't think of anything in particular.

Keep up the good work!

[Flashy]

I don't know that the class needs charisma all that badly. As far as I'm aware the class uses it for literally nothing apart from that save to learn/unlock manifestations? That's useful, but it's hardly critical to your day to day performance, especially with proficiency in charisma saves. A single point of difference there isn't going to make or break a summoner. It's a pretty solidly valuable secondary stat, but it's still a secondary stat.

[Mr.Moron]

I really like this class - a more interesting take on Summoner than I've seen in some other 5e homebrew, and a different interpretation than the 3.PF Eidolon-using Summoner.

The 3/4 casting is a little odd, but I don't see a real problem there - besides, half casting would be too weak and full casting would be too strong, I think, considering the extra features the class offers.


Thanks. This was roughly my thinking and I'm glad this seems to be consistently OK with folks. In general it makes me interested in exploring new class templates generally.


One big issue I have with it is that it gives proficiency in Int and Cha saves - both of which are "bad" saves in that they're rarely called for. I know the class uses both Int and Cha, but every other class has one good save and one bad save, which is a pattern I don't think this class should break.

Excellent Catch! This is a piece of advice I give to people all the time myself. Totally not an intentional break from the mold, just goes to show what can happen you don't read your own design critically enough.

On a related point - I think that requiring that Summoners have effectively two main stats, one for each of their core class features, is a mistake. The Int/Cha division may make some thematic sense, but forcing Summoners to invest fairly heavily into two stats that don't offer much outside of powering those abilities just seems like a bad idea. I'd drop one of the two, have the other one cover what it did, and replace that save prof with Wisdom.



If you're set on the idea of Summoners with Int and Cha, maybe make it an option at first level to choose which is your spellcasting stat? That does give the class a lot of multiclass flexibility, though, which might be a bad thing.

Overall, though, I love the class. The Avatars are very cool, and it looks like they'd be easy to homebrew more of, though you may want to alter the way their damage scales. The subclass features could also use a little polish, I think, but I can't think of anything in particular.

Keep up the good work!

Right now you really only need Charisma for one thing: gaining new manifestations, and it's mostly a fluff point. I agree it's a bit sloppy. I'll see if I can correct this somehow in the most final revision. I'm actually pretty happy with the damage scaling.

The intent is that that at 5th level they should be a bit better than fireball, and by 20th level they should be roughly on par with something like Meteor Swarm, in their own ways. Since spells don't scale evenly across levels the 9th, 15th and 20th bumps are there to sort of "Upgrade" the scaling to be equivalent to higher level spells. That said if you've got a specific concern I could certainly take it under advisement.

[Ivellius]

It's probably balanced (though I agree that 3/4 casting is strange, I'm not sure it's *bad*). It might be a bit too strong with all of its systems, but it doesn't get 9th-level spells and have the versatility as most full casters. A few random things I thought about when I was looking through it earlier:

Do the Major Manifestations act as a cap on how many Minor Manifestations you can have, or once you outpace CR are you effectively allowed however many weak creatures you defeat? I like the concept behind defeating a creature and then learning how to shape it, though, and I think the system works.

Avatars are kind of neat--a *big* effect if you can get it off, but a lot of difficulty in doing so. The Giant seemed too strong to me, though, in terms of how much damage it can do combined with Opportunity Attacks. Dunno why, but there you go.

The archetypes seem interesting and distinct.

All in all, it seems like a lot of bookkeeping and just more complex than I like in 5e classes. For the right player, that's not necessarily a bad thing.