Paladin Build help

[Deadline]

So, I find myself wanting to build a Paladin for an upcoming game, and have begun considering just how to go about it. I've done a little digging into Paladin optimization, but am running into a few issues with what I'd like to do and was hoping I could get some suggestions from folks here. Ultimately, I'd like to have an effective combatant riding around on a Celestial Large Monstrous Spider Special Mount, and have the both of them function decently together or apart on the battlefield. So I'm considering pieces of the Supermount build, only taking out the main thing that makes it tick (halfling and halfling outrider) and just using a few things to enhance it (Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3 + Natural Bond and Devoted Tracker). But I'm a bit fuzzy as to what I can expect out of this. I've never really optimized a Paladin before. I'm shooting for high Tier 4 territory. Initial thoughts are:

Paladin 16/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3

But I'm not sure if that will result in the Paladin being a decent combatant on his own or not. I could switch to Paladin 6/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3/Cavalier 10, but that looks like it winds up just making the mount super, and the Paladin less so. Is there an nice balance to be had between the two?

[mabriss lethe]

Almost any paladin build should consider Battle Blessing, since being able to auto-quicken the majority of your spell list is pretty sweet, and can make even the somewhat sub-par spells the paladin gets worth casting in combat.

Divine and Devotion feats are also nice, because they allow you to gain some actual utility from your otherwise underperforming Turn Undead attempts.

[Flickerdart]

There's a funny thing you can do.

Step 1: Look at the monstrous spider. It's CR2 (meaning that you can have it at paladin level 5). But it's also Large, so it can't fit into things.
Step 2: Look at the entomanothrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a). A spider entomanothrope is CR3 (so you can have one as early as Paladin 6), and can transform into a dude when necessary. He can also command spiders for you, has DR, has an extra HD from the original humanoid, and gets much better mental stats. Worth having the HD bumps be a level behind? Yes.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What's one level of Beastmaster getting you, besides a second (weaker) companion?

Anyway, basic Paladin optimization:

Serenity (Dragon Compendium) lets you use Wis for spells, reducing MAD. If you add a dip in Shiba Protector you're basically SAD. (Costs a lot of feats, though)
Battle Blessing, as mentioned, lets you cast as a swift action, improving action economy.
Sword of the Arcane Order lets you cast wizard spells, increasing power and versatility.
From Song to Smite lets you use Smite uses to power Inspire Courage instead, as a bard of your Paladin level. Which, in turn, opens the door for all the associated stuff (Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends). Goes well with a mount.


Harmonious Knight substitution levels give you more bard stuff, while Mystic Fire Knight levels boost your casting

[Waazraath]

For inspiration: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8971.0

Quite some mounted builds in there. Gl!

[Deadline]

What's one level of Beastmaster getting you, besides a second (weaker) companion?

Unless I'm dramatically misunderstanding something, it gets you an effective Druid level of 1 + 3 for your animal companion (which, thanks to Devoted Tracker, lets you apply those bonuses to your Special Mount instead of having a second companion). So if I'm understanding correctly, I'd have the following by endgame:

Effective Paladin Level 16 (16 paladin levels) = Enough to get max benefits (aside from SR) for the mount.
Effective Druid Level 10 (4 from Beastmaster, +3 from Wild Plains Outrider, +3 from Natural Bond) = Enough to get quite a bit of benefit from the animal companion boosts for the mount.

That should result in an 18 HD mount.

But I'm just wondering if that leaves me with both a decent mount and enough resources to build a decent Paladin as well. I'll be sure to snag Battle Blessing. Serenity is an interesting feat, and definitely worth looking into (to replace Cha for Paladin abilities). Power Attack and a two-handed weapon will do ok, any other suggestions on improving the rider's combat competence? (From Smite to Song is solid)

Any suggestions on feats for the Mount? Any ideas on whether I should focus more or less on Paladin or Mount? Is this just a terrible idea?

[DEMON]

What good does Battle Blessing do you with only 6 levels of paladin? Unless I'm mistaken, none of the PrCs advances spellcasting.

A suggestion on the feat side: Since you have Turn Undead and charisma focus, Divine or Devotion feats might be handy.

[mabriss lethe]

What good does Battle Blessing do you with only 6 levels of paladin? Unless I'm mistaken, none of the PrCs advances spellcasting.

A suggestion on the feat side: Since you have Turn Undead and charisma focus, Divine or Devotion feats might be handy.

The original build stub is for paladin 16, the alternate the OP offered up was pal 6.

[Deadline]

Ok, so let's see how all of this has to come together.

If I go Paladin 16/Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3, my progression will look something like this:

Paladin 1 - Power Attack
Paladin 2
Paladin 3 - Skill Focus(Handle Animal)
Paladin 4
Paladin 5
Beastmaster 1 - Mounted Combat
Paladin 6
Paladin 7
Paladin 8 - Track
Paladin 9
Paladin 10
Paladin 11 - Devoted Tracker
Wild Plains Outrider 1
Wild Plains Outrider 2
Wild Plains Outrider 3 - Natural Bond
Paladin 12
Paladin 13
Paladin 14 - Battle Blessing
Paladin 15
Paladin 16

Hmm, that doesn't leave any wiggle room for feats, and sets a couple of them on fire for +3 effective Druid level boost for the Animal Companion side of things. That pretty much leaves the Paladin completely unsupported for feats. Blerg. Can anyone see a way to pick up Devoted Tracker and the Animal Companion class feature without burning almost every feat I have?

More accurately, what are all the classes that grant the Animal Companion class feature (base class, variant class, or Prestige class)?

[Flickerdart]

More accurately, what are all the classes that grant the Animal Companion class feature (base class, variant class, or Prestige class)?
Lists of stuff (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1412.0) to the rescue:
Druid 1
Ranger 4
Ranger 4 (elf racial substitution level), Races of the Wild, Elven Hound, advances as animal companion, see text
Peregrine Runner 1, ecl 8, Races of Stone, peregrine falcon only
Beastmaster 1, ecl 6, Complete Adventurer, also gains extra companions, see text
Gatekeeper Mystagogue 1, ecl 6, Player's Guide to Eberron, gains additional bonuses, see text

[ComaVision]

Does your DM not allow Flaws for more feats? Also, race that gives a bonus feat.

[Deadline]

Lists of stuff (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1412.0) to the rescue:
Druid 1
Ranger 4
Ranger 4 (elf racial substitution level), Races of the Wild, Elven Hound, advances as animal companion, see text
Peregrine Runner 1, ecl 8, Races of Stone, peregrine falcon only
Beastmaster 1, ecl 6, Complete Adventurer, also gains extra companions, see text
Gatekeeper Mystagogue 1, ecl 6, Player's Guide to Eberron, gains additional bonuses, see text

Well crud, that pretty much means it has to be Beastmaster 1. Or Ranger 4 and no Wild Plains Outrider for a diminished bonus (effective Druid level 5 instead of 10). Or Ranger 4/Paladin 13/Wild Plains Outrider 3 for an effective Druid level of 6 and an effective Paladin level of 15 (resulting in a final mount with 16HD).

I was hoping to do this without flaws and using a Killoren as the race. If I went with this:

Paladin 1 - Power Attack
Paladin 2
Paladin 3 - Skill Focus(Handle Animal)
Paladin 4
Paladin 5
Beastmaster 1 - Track
Paladin 6
Paladin 7
Paladin 8 - Devoted Tracker
Paladin 9
Paladin 10
Paladin 11 - Mounted Combat
Wild Plains Outrider 1
Wild Plains Outrider 2
Wild Plains Outrider 3 - Natural Bond
Paladin 12
Paladin 13
Paladin 14 - ?
Paladin 15
Paladin 16

What one feat would give me the biggest benefit? Battle Blessing? From Smite to Song?

[nedz]

More accurately, what are all the classes that grant the Animal Companion class feature (base class, variant class, or Prestige class)?

There's this Bardadin option
Bard 6 / Prestige Paladin 14
Bard with Divine Bard and Nature Bard ACFs.
The first to get into PP, the second to get an AC
13 levels of Bard casting and 18 BAB.

[Flickerdart]

Smite to Song is okay, but you can get its benefits without a feat, sort of:
Crescent Moon Knight substitution level replaces the 2nd level paladin spell slot gained at level 10 with the ability to Inspire Courage 1/day as a bard of 4 levels lower.
Harmonious Knight substitution level replaces detect evil with 1/paladin level/day Inspire Courage but only at a +1 bonus. By losing uses of Remove Disease at 6th and 9th you can gain Inspire Competence and Inspire Greatness respectively (1/day each).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah. You're spending three feats and a level for...what, +2 HD and NA? Not worth it. (You could take a level of Ranger for Track, but I don't think it's worth two feats and two levels either)

[Troacctid]

It could be worth it if the mount gets a feat out of those HD.

[Aleolus]

There is a way to get five more feats, if you don't mind losing your Paladin spellcasting ability (not really worth it, imo). Take the Complete Champion ACF, so you lose all your paladin spells (rendering Battle Blessing pointless so you can swap it out), but get a bonus feat each level you would normally get a new spell level. Now, the feats you can pick are from a preset list, but each one on that list is designed to be beneficial to a Pally

[ExLibrisMortis]

Paladin casting is actually one of the best parts of the class, without it, it pretty much drops a tier. Part of that is due to Sword of the Arcane Order + Battle Blessing + a Mystic Fire Knight substitution level (translation: three easy tricks to increase your spellcasting!), but even with vanilla casting, the list has good spells, such as rhino's rush.

[Dread_Head]

The Noble Heart substitution levels from Champions of Valor gives you Track as a bonus feat at level 3 which means you can move Devoted Tracker to your level 6 feat and either Natural Bond to 9 or grab Battle Blessing at that point. I would suggest your level 18 feat be Sword of the Arcane Order to add a late game power boost (wizard spells are that good) as otherwise you will notice your build tailing off.

Edit: @nedz Bards can't be of Lawful alignment (thus can't meet the LG prereq), that also doesn't meet the TU prereq.

[stanprollyright]

Discussion wouldn't be complete without this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457144-Repost-A-Game-Paladin-20-Bardic-Music-Paladin-Build).

[nedz]

@nedz Bards can't be of Lawful alignment (thus can't meet the LG prereq), that also doesn't meet the TU prereq.

Oops, there goes another build. :smallamused:

[DEMON]

The original build stub is for paladin 16, the alternate the OP offered up was pal 6.
Fail a spot check, I did.


Oops, there goes another build. :smallamused:
Well, not necessarily, since you can simply start as a Bard with a NG alignment and then swap the alignment to LG through RP.


A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard, though he retains all his bard abilities.
Of course this is very dependant on DM approval and quite cheesy. YMMV.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I've never really cared for mount-focused Paladins, especially considering the ACFs you can get instead of the mount (+3 damage per Paladin level on a charging smite, or earth glide and dimension door plus tons of other benefits from underdark knight) and still be just as viable a combatant, if not more so. Hence the creation of this Paladin build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5), which is one of my favorite uses of the class besides a Prestige Paladin-based build or a Sorcadin.

[Deadline]

The Noble Heart substitution levels from Champions of Valor gives you Track as a bonus feat at level 3 which means you can move Devoted Tracker to your level 6 feat and either Natural Bond to 9 or grab Battle Blessing at that point. I would suggest your level 18 feat be Sword of the Arcane Order to add a late game power boost (wizard spells are that good) as otherwise you will notice your build tailing off.

Edit: @nedz Bards can't be of Lawful alignment (thus can't meet the LG prereq), that also doesn't meet the TU prereq.

Actually, that works excellently. Getting Track as a bonus feat lets me drop the following:

1 Paladin 1 - Power Attack
2 Paladin 2
3 Paladin 3 (Noble Heart) - Skill Focus(Handle Animal), Track (bonus feat)
4 Paladin 4
5 Paladin 5
6 Beastmaster 1 - Devoted Tracker
7 Paladin 6
8 Paladin 7
9 Paladin 8 - Natural Bond
10 Paladin 9
11 Paladin 10
12 Paladin 11 - Mounted Combat
13 Wild Plains Outrider 1
14 Wild Plains Outrider 2
15 Wild Plains Outrider 3 - Sword of the Arcane Order
16 Paladin 12
17 Paladin 13
18 Paladin 14 - Battle Blessing
19 Paladin 15
20 Paladin 16

That should fit nicely. Fluffwise, if I'm running this as a Killoren, I'm fairly certain I can justify mashing up both the Noble Heart substitution levels and the Sword of the Arcane Order feat. Fey are notoriously magical and quick to anger. A mystical vengeance based order could work.


Discussion wouldn't be complete without this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457144-Repost-A-Game-Paladin-20-Bardic-Music-Paladin-Build).

A Game Paladin sacrifices the ability to have a special mount. Something exactly counter to what I'm looking to do with this build (which is be a solid Paladin with an excellent mount).