Looking for information about pre-Zerg Tyranids aka 2nd edition

[Almarck]

So this is a claim that we be all probably heard at least once: "Blizzard ripped off the Tyranids and made the Zerg".

I am fairly sure Blizzards did take cues from a variety of sources in making Starcraft. I mean there's hardly new ideas, just mixes of old ideas . War craft and Warhammer both take cues from Tolkien and mix steam punk and high fantasy elements for instance.

But a while back I've learned that apparently the Tyranids had a redesign from their original introduction sometime during 2001, two years after Starcraft was released. For contrast, 2nd edition Tyranids came out 1993 .... ans the artwork ive seen shows a rather... different army. So this leads me to wonder how much is that claim valid?

Just how much changed in the transition between 2nd and 3rd edition?

[MLai]

So this is a claim that we be all probably heard at least once: "Blizzard ripped off the Tyranids and made the Zerg".

I am fairly sure Blizzards did take cues from a variety of sources in making Starcraft. I mean there's hardly new ideas, just mixes of old ideas . War craft and Warhammer both take cues from Tolkien and mix steam punk and high fantasy elements for instance.

But a while back I've learned that apparently the Tyranids had a redesign from their original introduction sometime during 2001, two years after Starcraft was released. For contrast, 2nd edition Tyranids came out 1993 .... ans the artwork ive seen shows a rather... different army. So this leads me to wonder how much is that claim valid?

Just how much changed in the transition between 2nd and 3rd edition?
The Zerg resemble the "old Nids" much more than the new ones, in that both armies appear as a mish-mash of weird-looking alien monsters which appear as a child's repeated attempts to draw a xenomorph.

The newly redesigned Nids is much more its own beast, in that the overall design is made into a cohesive theme. All of the Nids now resemble some sort of cross between Jurassic Park and Aliens; there appears now to be more of a genotypic descent through the entire army line. The new Nids and the Starcraft/ Broodwar Zergs do not appear similar anymore; the Zerg appear more insectoid than the new Nids.

[Brother Oni]

As an example:


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Qg7Tfvu0KT0/UwGpeIShSrI/AAAAAAAAAiQ/WqVEGC16J0k/s1600/Tyranid+Warriors+assemble!.JPG

The brown plastic one on the right is typical of 2nd Ed tyranid warriors, while the middle plastic one is the new unified design (note the sleekness of the head shape and plates.

A main theme running through the old tyranids was nearly everything had 6 limbs - warriors, genestealers, zoats, carnifexes etc.
I can't remember when the smaller critters like gaunts came in, but back when I played, they weren't about.

[GolemsVoice]

As far as I know, the old Tyranids also had weapons they held in hand, or that were at least seperate from their overall body, while the newer 'nids have everything as a full part of their body. I remember reading an interview in an old WD where a designer said that they wanted to remove anything that might look non-biological, so instead of holding weapons or swords, the Tyranids grew them out of themselves.

[Almarck]

The Zerg resemble the "old Nids" much more than the new ones, in that both armies appear as a mish-mash of weird-looking alien monsters which appear as a child's repeated attempts to draw a xenomorph.

The newly redesigned Nids is much more its own beast, in that the overall design is made into a cohesive theme. All of the Nids now resemble some sort of cross between Jurassic Park and Aliens; there appears now to be more of a genotypic descent through the entire army line. The new Nids and the Starcraft/ Broodwar Zergs do not appear similar anymore; the Zerg appear more insectoid than the new Nids.

... I have a hard time believing some of what you claim. Specifically the resemblance of old nids to the original Zerg ascetic. Mind breaking it down how you reach this conclusion?

I mean as the picture posted above shows, the old Nids were a race that looked almost humanoid and used weaponry in their hands.

Also, can anyone tell me about the zoats and what role they played in both fluff and game mechanics?

[Kitten Champion]

Looking at the designs from 2nd ed. - at least according to Google - Tyranids look more conventionally demonic than Zerg. They have some similar silhouettes - bat-wings, teeth mixed with insectal pincers on the side, praying mantis spiny-things coming out of their back, and that distinctive xenomorph extended head and ridged reptilian tail.

None of the Zerg are bipedal or have tool-manipulating hands save Infested Terrans, they also clearly lack weaponry and armour, and generally Tyranids have more humanity in their features... like skulls that retain vaguely human characteristics but mixed with piranha.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/2/26/Hydralisk_SC1_Art2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080618195853

and

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/Nikkoru/Clipboard01_2.jpg

StarCraft has a pretty simple design philosophy for the Zerg, according to the wiki.



1) You start with lots of teeth.

2) You choose a troop type
a) Melee attacker
b) Ranged attacker
c) Flying attacker
d) All of the above (game designers don't like this option, as it's too multi-purposed)

3) Pick a form
a) Decapod
b) Hexapod
c) Octopod
d) Serpentine

4) Add 2 or more of the following:
a) Poisonous spines
b) More teeth
c) Barbed tails
d) Jagged claws
e) Spiked back plates
f) Insectoid wings
g) Venemous tendrils
h) Bat wings
i) Acidic glands
j) A lot more teeth

5) Choose a name prefix:
a) Rage
b) Omega
c) Spore
d) Ravage
e) Blade
f) Destruct
g) Terror
h) Any other word that sounds violent and exudes overall nastiness.

6) Choose a suffix:
a) -ling
b) -list
c) -tor
d) -zor
e) -etc

It wouldn't surprise me if they had a similar write-up for the Tyranids' creative staff - but they have to make them technologically adroit, though based on Brother Oni's image, they lost their more human-like features in their anatomy. For a less demonic and more alien look.

[Eldan]

Older nids had English names that pretty much desccribed their function. Warrior. Genestealer. Then they started going with Latin and Greek monster names, or those names just describing the function. Termagant. Harpy. Carnifex. r

[Brother Oni]

Also, can anyone tell me about the zoats and what role they played in both fluff and game mechanics?

Going way, way back, W40K basically had analogues for everything from Warhammer Fantasy (presumably so they could use the same models for both with minimal fuss). Zoats were the Dragon Ogre analogues.

If I remember correctly, the Zoats were the ambassadors and diplomats for the Tyranids and quite a few Rogue Traders bumped into them, negotiating treaties and deals. Of course once the hive fleets turned up, all the information the zoats had taken were fed back to the hive mind and they were re subsumed back into biomass.

In reality, the zoats weren't popular and didn't fit the fluff and design direction that GW wanted to take the tyranids towards (an all ravening horde that couldn't be negotiated or reasoned with), thus were quietly brushed under the rug and not mentioned in polite company (they were soon joined by the Squats, Slann and others).


Older nids had English names that pretty much desccribed their function. Warrior. Genestealer. Then they started going with Latin and Greek monster names, or those names just describing the function. Termagant. Harpy. Carnifex. r

To be fair, those are the Imperial xenobiologists' classifications so they would be various Latin and Greek critter names (I'm sure the Tyranids don't think of their bioforms in the same way).

[MLai]

... I have a hard time believing some of what you claim. Specifically the resemblance of old nids to the original Zerg ascetic. Mind breaking it down how you reach this conclusion?
For example, look at this old Fex.
http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tyranid_Carnifex_1.gif

If you've played Starcraft I, and you've played Dawn Of War II so you saw the New Nids, and I told you that this model is an old discarded design (without the telltale paint colors) from 1 of the 2 games... which game would you think it came from?

I personally think it would be a discarded Zerg I design. But ofc, aesthetics interpretation is subjective.

[Almarck]

For example, look at this old Fex.
http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tyranid_Carnifex_1.gif

If you've played Starcraft I, and you've played Dawn Of War II so you saw the New Nids, and I told you that this model is an old discarded design (without the telltale paint colors) from 1 of the 2 games... which game would you think it came from?

I personally think it would be a discarded Zerg I design. But ofc, aesthetics interpretation is subjective.

I honesty don't see it fitting into the Zerg army, like at all myself. Perhaps there's some sort of bias or pride one on of our sides preventing us from saying so. Can we get a third opinion?



Also, Oni, so Nids were an insectoid race, but not a swarm, at least when the zoats were in the picture? Is that what the perception of them was at the time?

[Kitten Champion]

For example, look at this old Fex.
http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tyranid_Carnifex_1.gif

If you've played Starcraft I, and you've played Dawn Of War II so you saw the New Nids, and I told you that this model is an old discarded design (without the telltale paint colors) from 1 of the 2 games... which game would you think it came from?

I personally think it would be a discarded Zerg I design. But ofc, aesthetics interpretation is subjective.


The head looks like a bat-like vampire Halloween mask, the legs and torso look like they come from Mechwarrior - or I suppose a Goliath is more apt. The rest of the body and the pincer-scythes could be Zerg - at least in silhouette it roughly resembles an Ultralisk from a front angle.

For example --

http://img14.deviantart.net/46e6/i/2013/176/a/9/star_craft_2_ultralisk__prototipe_by_destart-d6alkdr.jpg

Thing is, the Zerg units are - to me at least - defined most by the moment animations attached to them. A Hydralisks' slither, the cheetah-like gait of the Zergling, the glider-like movement of the Drones - and so on. The reason that really doesn't seem Zerg is that it's clumsy-looking - naturally it's supposed to look intimidating as a statue first and foremost - but the prospect of animating it would make it look lumbering and silly, as if it weren't thought out past the initial design stage.

[GolemsVoice]

The thing is that Zerg units had always had either more than two legs (Zerglings, Ultralisks, Lurkers etc..) or nor legs (Drones, Hydralisks). Units like Hybrids and Kerrigan obviously don't count.

[Brother Oni]

Also, Oni, so Nids were an insectoid race, but not a swarm, at least when the zoats were in the picture? Is that what the perception of them was at the time?

I hesitate to call them insectoid, given that the only trait they have in common with insects is the 6 limbs and have none of the other characteristic body morphology (no distinct thorax and abdomen, antennae, compound/simple eyes, etc), although their hierarchy is governed by a multi-queen structure (Norn Queens).

Back when I played, the Tyranids weren't fully fleshed out - genestealers were first introduced in the Space Hulk game as a nasty space critter that inhabited space hulks and they were tied into the Tyranid lore later. The Ymgarl genestealers were thought to be (and fleshed out as) some space gribbly that inhabited an isolated moon in Rogue Trader. They've subsequently been updated to something fitting more the current aesthetics and tied back into current Tyranid lore:


Rogue trader
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/9f/Rogue_Trader_Genestealer.jpg

5th Edition
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/cd/Ymgarl.png


Surprisingly, genestealer design has generally remained untouched, aside from becoming sleeker to emphasise their agility:


Space Hulk 'stealers
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Space-Hulk-First-Edition.jpg

Current 'stealers
http://www.spellenwinkeldeburcht.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Genestealers.jpg

I'm not as familiar with StarCraft (the last time I played Brood War, Windows 2000 was the new thing), but I don't think they have a medium sized melee unit (they've got small ones which are gaunt equivalents and large ones which are carnifex equivalents).

Edit: To be honest, my memory's a little shaky this far back (Space Hulk came out ...26 years ago?! Jesus I feel old... :smallfrown:) and the only old tyranid units I remember are warriors, genestealers and carnifexes.


Thing is, the Zerg units are - to me at least - defined most by the moment animations attached to them. A Hydralisks' slither, the cheetah-like gait of the Zergling, the glider-like movement of the Drones - and so on. The reason that really doesn't seem Zerg is that it's clumsy-looking - naturally it's supposed to look intimidating as a statue first and foremost - but the prospect of animating it would make it look lumbering and silly, as if it weren't thought out past the initial design stage.

That said, the newer carnifexes still look fairly lumbering, but I don't remember too many outstanding animation flaws in game:

http://ninthhaven.com/new_carnifex.jpg

[Seppl]

Keep in mind that Starcraft underwent some redesigns, too. The first time it was shown to the press, the Zerg were still known as "Nightmarish Invaders". The designs seemed to feature a lot more teeth and horns. You can find some screenshots here:
http://home.planet.nl/~aggel005/alphabeta/ealpha.html
Although this was the alpha version, they intended to go with this design. It was only after the press (rightfully) shunned the game as "Warcraft in space" that the producers decided to completely overhaul everything and subsequently made the Starcraft we know today.

Also, here is a very early teaser for Starcraft:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4G566MKLEE
As you can see, the "Zurg" were described as "biomechanical creatures" at that time.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm not as familiar with StarCraft (the last time I played Brood War, Windows 2000 was the new thing), but I don't think they have a medium sized melee unit (they've got small ones which are gaunt equivalents and large ones which are carnifex equivalents).

They do not, at least in the official game.



That said, the newer carnifexes still look fairly lumbering, but I don't remember too many outstanding animation flaws in game:

http://ninthhaven.com/new_carnifex.jpg

That I could see as a Zerg eventually.

The creature's frame is much more balanced and well-proportioned, it looks sleekly organic rather than a monster-y robot thing wearing space armour, and the whole thing has the sense of tyrannosaurus-meets-chitinous-insect rather than random chimeric parts thrown together wherever.

Though it looks more like a Pacific Rim Kaiju now than an Ultralisk.



Also, here is a very early teaser for Starcraft:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4G566MKLEE
As you can see, the "Zurg" were described as "biomechanical creatures" at that time.

I remember that trailer from Diablo - or something similar, Easier to justify using the weirdly-Christmassy WarCraft II Orc designs that way, I suppose. It is kind of sad that they had to be told it wasn't doing enough to distinguish itself from their very last RTS.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Instead of just quoting people, I'll just list the general release history in order.

Published in 1987, the first edition Warhammer 40,000 rulebook (aka Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader) only describes Tyranids (one type) and their allies (Zoats). Genestealers are seperate. Only Zoats actually have models, there's one in the colour pages holding what looks like a pair of early fleshborers (which are just boltguns in the rules).

In description the Tyranids are not that different to later ones in that they have Hive Fleets and go around draining planets of resources. Its just that instead of having lots of different types of Tyranid they have slave races instead (Zoats are the only one described). Tyranids have slightly better stats than humans but are still only strength and toughness 3. They have an insect-like society where only the Hive-Tyrant is fertile, while the other officers are called Hive Lords instead. Warriors are just Tyranids with guns, not a separate kind of creature and the Hive-Tyrants are just tyranids with psychic levels.

Zoats are described as genetically engineered warriors and are hard to kill heavy troop type. 50% of a Tyranid force was supposed to be Zoats, making them pretty over-powered but they're not really a faction in the modern sense and were in the monster manual-type section of the book along with Jokaero, Catachan Devils, Dinosaurs :smallbiggrin:, barely disguised Rust Monster and Mimic equivilants along with giant insects all straight from D&D, Genestealers and the warp entities (not yet daemons in the fluff).

Space Zoats were released alongside White Dwarf issue 97 in '88 (fantasy zoats were around the previous year).
http://www.solegends.com/citads1988a/198801wd97/wd097198801p57-TSF18SpaceZoats-01.jpg

Febuary 1988 flyer:
http://www.solegends.com/citads1988a/198802rt1/fly8899rt1f2-01.jpg
This was back when 40k was just a ruleset you could use for other miniatures Citadel (and other companies) made
http://www.solegends.com/citads1988a/198802rt1/fly8899rt1r2-01.jpg

In 89, some metal Genestealers popped up around the Space Hulk release
http://www.solegends.com/citads1989b/198906wd114/198906wd114p078-01.jpg
Later that year more Genestealers came out
http://www.solegends.com/citads1989b/198908fly/198908flyf1-01.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citads1989b/198908fly/198908flyf2-01.jpg
Still no Tyranids being advertised for sale.

The first actual Tyranid stuff came in board games .
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8630/advanced-space-crusade
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2161/tyranid-attack

This introduced Tyranid Warriors as big giant things in 1990. Much of the current fluff originates here with Norn Queens replacing what Rogue Trader called Hive Tyrants. In 1992 the models were re-released in a simplified game that included the Genestealers and terminators from Space Hulk.

Citadel stopped making flyers in 1989 and moved to catalogues. These are the first Tyranids to actually appear in a Citadel Miniatures Catalogue from what I can tell,
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap105genestealerzoats-01.htm

Apart from the metal Zoats and Hunter Killers, the only Tyranids in the 1991 catalogue (the earlier catalogues are all incomplete in comparison so its hard to find where the Tyranids at first pop up) are the plastic sprues for genestealers and warriors taken from the Space Crusade and Space Hulk games.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap112plastics-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap113plastics-01.htm

The only 40k stuff that's easy to find at all in catalogues before the 1991 catalogue is Imperium and Eldar stuff.

In the 1993 catalogue (which contained the releases from 1992), we get the Screamer Killer.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1992/cat1992p398tyrscreamer-02.htm
and a (metal?) variation on the Advanced Space Crusade Warrior who has no deathspitter option alongside the fabled experiment of Tyranid Squigs.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1992/cat1992p399tyrwarriors-02.htm

Second Edition boxset was released in 1993. Those Hunter Killer fleshborer guys appear as Termagants in the Warhammer 40k second edition rule book, as does one of the Zoats in a Tyranids and Genestealers vs Blood Angels and Alaitoc scene so I think this is actually a recycled first edition image since Zoats aren't in the army lists that came with the Rulebook in the 2nd ed boxed game. Bare in mind that there was a lot of scale creep between 2nd and first ed so those Hunter Killers might have been intended to be bigger.

The 2nd edition (pre codex) army list for the Tyranids only has warriors, Termagants, Carnifexes, Genestealers and Hive Tyrants and there's a still a separate Genestealer list with Brood Brothers, Hybrids, Patriarch and Magus.

The Tyranid codex supposedly came out in 1993. The fluff is basically the modern fluff and Hormagaunts, biovores, Gargoyles, Lictors and Zoanthropes are now included.

The 1995 catalogue has no new Tyranids but re-releases the Screamer Killer renamed as the Carnifex.

The 1995/6 Annual has the new models released for the Tyranid Codex.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p081-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p082-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p079-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p075-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p074-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p072-01.htm

The warriors are the old Advanced Space Crusade plastics now available in boxes of three, the similar questionably metal guy is vanished if he ever actually went into production.

The 1997 Annual repeats all of the above but adds in the first true metal Tyranid warriors

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1997/1997p082-02.htm

I have a lot of these guys, three I bought new back in the day and ten I got off ebay.

1998 gave us some metal termagants with different guns. I have three of the fleshborer guys who are worse quality sculpts than the plastics :smallconfused:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P404-02.htm

1995 also gave us the Epic Tyranids
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p154-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P455-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P456-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P457-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P458-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P459-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P460-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P461-02.htm

[Talakeal]

Instead of just quoting people, I'll just list the general release history in order.

Published in 1987, the first edition Warhammer 40,000 rulebook (aka Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader) only describes Tyranids (one type) and their allies (Zoats). Genestealers are seperate. Only Zoats actually have models, there's one in the colour pages holding what looks like a pair of early fleshborers (which are just boltguns in the rules).

In description the Tyranids are not that different to later ones in that they have Hive Fleets and go around draining planets of resources. Its just that instead of having lots of different types of Tyranid they have slave races instead (Zoats are the only one described). Tyranids have slightly better stats than humans but are still only strength and toughness 3. They have an insect-like society where only the Hive-Tyrant is fertile, while the other officers are called Hive Lords instead. Warriors are just Tyranids with guns, not a separate kind of creature and the Hive-Tyrants are just tyranids with psychic levels.

Zoats are described as genetically engineered warriors and are hard to kill heavy troop type. 50% of a Tyranid force was supposed to be Zoats, making them pretty over-powered but they're not really a faction in the modern sense and were in the monster manual-type section of the book along with Jokaero, Catachan Devils, Dinosaurs :smallbiggrin:, barely disguised Rust Monster and Mimic equivilants along with giant insects all straight from D&D, Genestealers and the warp entities (not yet daemons in the fluff).

Space Zoats were released alongside White Dwarf issue 97 in '88 (fantasy zoats were around the previous year).
http://www.solegends.com/citads1988a/198801wd97/wd097198801p57-TSF18SpaceZoats-01.jpg

Febuary 1988 flyer:
http://www.solegends.com/citads1988a/198802rt1/fly8899rt1f2-01.jpg
This was back when 40k was just a ruleset you could use for other miniatures Citadel (and other companies) made
http://www.solegends.com/citads1988a/198802rt1/fly8899rt1r2-01.jpg

In 89, some metal Genestealers popped up around the Space Hulk release
http://www.solegends.com/citads1989b/198906wd114/198906wd114p078-01.jpg
Later that year more Genestealers came out
http://www.solegends.com/citads1989b/198908fly/198908flyf1-01.jpg
http://www.solegends.com/citads1989b/198908fly/198908flyf2-01.jpg
Still no Tyranids being advertised for sale.

The first actual Tyranid stuff came in board games .
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8630/advanced-space-crusade
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2161/tyranid-attack

This introduced Tyranid Warriors as big giant things in 1990. Much of the current fluff originates here with Norn Queens replacing what Rogue Trader called Hive Tyrants. In 1992 the models were re-released in a simplified game that included the Genestealers and terminators from Space Hulk.

Citadel stopped making flyers in 1989 and moved to catalogues. These are the first Tyranids to actually appear in a Citadel Miniatures Catalogue from what I can tell,
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap105genestealerzoats-01.htm

Apart from the metal Zoats and Hunter Killers, the only Tyranids in the 1991 catalogue (the earlier catalogues are all incomplete in comparison so its hard to find where the Tyranids at first pop up) are the plastic sprues for genestealers and warriors taken from the Space Crusade and Space Hulk games.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap112plastics-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap113plastics-01.htm

The only 40k stuff that's easy to find at all in catalogues before the 1991 catalogue is Imperium and Eldar stuff.

In the 1993 catalogue (which contained the releases from 1992), we get the Screamer Killer.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1992/cat1992p398tyrscreamer-02.htm
and a (metal?) variation on the Advanced Space Crusade Warrior who has no deathspitter option alongside the fabled experiment of Tyranid Squigs.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1992/cat1992p399tyrwarriors-02.htm

Second Edition boxset was released in 1993. Those Hunter Killer fleshborer guys appear as Termagants in the Warhammer 40k second edition rule book, as does one of the Zoats in a Tyranids and Genestealers vs Blood Angels and Alaitoc scene so I think this is actually a recycled first edition image since Zoats aren't in the army lists that came with the Rulebook in the 2nd ed boxed game. Bare in mind that there was a lot of scale creep between 2nd and first ed so those Hunter Killers might have been intended to be bigger.

The 2nd edition (pre codex) army list for the Tyranids only has warriors, Termagants, Carnifexes, Genestealers and Hive Tyrants and there's a still a separate Genestealer list with Brood Brothers, Hybrids, Patriarch and Magus.

The Tyranid codex supposedly came out in 1993. The fluff is basically the modern fluff and Hormagaunts, biovores, Gargoyles, Lictors and Zoanthropes are now included.

The 1995 catalogue has no new Tyranids but re-releases the Screamer Killer renamed as the Carnifex.

The 1995/6 Annual has the new models released for the Tyranid Codex.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p081-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p082-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p079-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p075-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p074-01.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p072-01.htm

The warriors are the old Advanced Space Crusade plastics now available in boxes of three, the similar questionably metal guy is vanished if he ever actually went into production.

The 1997 Annual repeats all of the above but adds in the first true metal Tyranid warriors

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1997/1997p082-02.htm

I have a lot of these guys, three I bought new back in the day and ten I got off ebay.
javascript://
1998 gave us some metal termagants with different guns. I have three of the fleshborer guys who are worse quality sculpts than the plastics :smallconfused:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P404-02.htm

1995 also gave us the Epic Tyranids
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1995-6/cat19956p154-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P455-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P456-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P457-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P458-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P459-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P460-02.htm
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P461-02.htm

In the late 90s early 2000s I was a big time Tyranid collector, and afaik I had every model GW had ever made up to that point except for the very original tyranid warrior, which is extremely rare and also apparently missing from your list.

http://thecitadelcollector.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/tn_067.jpg

The 2e Tyranid Codex didn't come out until 1995, although most of the new units in it were from Epic: Hive War which came out a year earlier.

[Bulldog Psion]

Dang, that takes me back.

I actually have a small unit of Zoats painted up somewhere, stored in a box in one of my closets, from long, long ago.

Being an eccentric, I kind of liked the Zoats more than the tyranids; weird space centaurs appealed more to me than Alien ripoffs, for whatever reason.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Dang, that takes me back.

I actually have a small unit of Zoats painted up somewhere, stored in a box in one of my closets, from long, long ago.

Being an eccentric, I kind of liked the Zoats more than the tyranids; weird space centaurs appealed more to me than Alien ripoffs, for whatever reason.

If only the Interex had survived and been a playable faction. Their warriors had centaur-like gear and carried energy bows.

[Almarck]

Well that post Skeleton is very detailed. Bravo. I mean wow, the Tyranids were so different. I guess that phase of development is probably why Tyranids use guns for their infantry forces instead of directly built in weaponru.

It's just in newer editions the weaponry is fused to the body like a graft instead of removable objects.


If only the Interex had survived and been a playable faction. Their warriors had centaur-like gear and carried energy bows.

Well eventually GW does have to think about adding more factions to appeal to previously untapped audiences or draw more money from. I mean this year and last gave us official things for people who like Mechancus stuffs. Although, I do wonder if Interex might have been a little.. welll too Necron like to find a market. Personally, a race that has no infantry forces or squads at all would be cool.

[Closet_Skeleton]

In the late 90s early 2000s I was a big time Tyranid collector, and afaik I had every model GW had ever made up to that point except for the very original tyranid warrior, which is extremely rare and also apparently missing from your list.

http://thecitadelcollector.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/tn_067.jpg

The 2e Tyranid Codex didn't come out until 1995, although most of the new units in it were from Epic: Hive War which came out a year earlier.

Lexicarnum claimed the 2e Tyranid book was a 1993 release. I was suspicious but had already spent too long looking at sources to double check.

My list only had the stuff that appeared in Citadel catalogues. The very rare stuff does not. I've seen that older proto-Termagant before and assumed there must have been some older Tyranids but they weren't advertised for sale for very long. The original warrior/proto-termagant is usually called a 'Hunter KillerSlayer' in most sources I've seen so I assumed it was the same as the Hunter Slayers that I did list (aka the termagants in the 2nd ed rulebook). The only obvious difference between the original warrior and the similarly posed Hunter Slayer Fleshborer 2 is that the latter has its mouth closed.



It's just in newer editions the weaponry is fused to the body like a graft instead of removable objects.

Not consistently. The design team say that when interviewed but its kind of untrue.

To start with, that comment when it was made around the 3rd edition book only really seemed to apply to the melee weapons, not the ranged ones. 3rd edition introduced Scything talons (previously Hormagaunts and Carnifexes had talons that weren't considered a weapon type) to replace boneswords and lashwhips (except for Hive Guard who were new and had lashwhips). 3rd ed plastic tyranids (eg the same as the current gaunts and warriors) still have guns they hold in their hands, they just have a few cables going to their body.

The thing is, the second edition plastic termagants have a even bigger cable going from their chest into their fleshborer, so the current Termagants are less integrated into their weapons. The 2nd ed warriors on the other hand didn't have any connecting cables between them and their warriors, so the 3rd ed plastics really just made termagants and warriors consistant rather than changing what a Tyranid weapon was. 3rd ed also made Termagants and Warrior weapons interchangeable.

3rd ed also gave Carnifexes guns, which turned what had been a creature with purely internal weapons into something less unique.

The 3rd edition book made Tyranid guns more symbiotic in the rules, but not so much in the models except for the afformentioned melee weapons. This example of a neat fluff idea ruining a game meant that Warrior heavy weapons were now some useless intermediary between a regular gun and a real heavy weapon and the only source of heavy shooting in the Tyranid book was the previously melee focused Carnifex. The 4th ed book back-pedaled on that slightly and then the 5th ed book basically got rid of the concept (while keeping some of its terrible practical effects :smallannoyed:). So it doesn't really apply to current Tyranids anyway.

The 4th edition Raveners incorporated the 3rd edition ones' guns into their chests, but the 3rd edition raveners were after they supposedly decided to make the Tyranid weapons more integrated. The same happened with the 4th ed Tyrant Guard compared to the 3rd ed ones, but like Raveners Tyrant Guard were new for 3rd ed.

On the other hand, the 4th ed Hive Tyrant brought back the hand held lash whip and bone sword combo from the 2nd edition Hive Tyrant while it was the 3rd edition Tyrant that only had Scything Talons that were part of the body. Basically giving us the reverse of the previous Tyrant/Tyrant Guard distinction.

5th edition brought back bonesword and lashwhip as a combo for warriors.

7th? ed brought back lashwhips for Tyrant Guard and gave them boneswords as well (technically 5th ed did that in the rules but the models came out later.)

Fleshborers are still clearly just organic bolt guns if you compare the models, its more that bolt guns have been redesigned a lot as well so they've diverged quite a bit.

[Talakeal]

Lexicarnum claimed the 2e Tyranid book was a 1993 release. I was suspicious but had already spent too long looking at sources to double check.

My list only had the stuff that appeared in Citadel catalogues. The very rare stuff does not. I've seen that older proto-Termagant before and assumed there must have been some older Tyranids but they weren't advertised for sale for very long. The original warrior/proto-termagant is usually called a 'Hunter KillerSlayer' in most sources I've seen so I assumed it was the same as the Hunter Slayers that I did list (aka the termagants in the 2nd ed rulebook). The only obvious difference between the original warrior and the similarly posed Hunter Slayer Fleshborer 2 is that the latter has its mouth closed.



It is what the original Rogue Trader book called a "Tyranid". It is very similar to the hunter-slayers but it is about three times the size and comes in multiple pieces. It also might have an extra pair of legs, but I would need to look at the models closely to be sure.


Also, I can confirm that the (very rare) variation of the Space Crusade Tyranid Warrior in the 1993 catalogue was indeed made of metal. It is actually my favorite tyranid warrior model of all time, and one of the few I still own.

[lord_khaine]

Personally i kinda miss the old carnifex model, i think it was a lot better than the newer ones.
It might not look quite as sleek or streamlined, but it had its own sort of charm.

[Bulldog Psion]

Personally i kinda miss the old carnifex model, i think it was a lot better than the newer ones.
It might not look quite as sleek or streamlined, but it had its own sort of charm.

Agreed, I preferred the old carnifex as well.

(It's odd, I haven't played a GW game or bought one of their miniatures for almost 20 years now, but I still like taking a look at them, particularly the "classic" ones of my youth :smallbiggrin:.)

[Closet_Skeleton]

The only Carnifex I don't like is the 3rd edition metal one. I like the almost identical Old One Eye model to a degree but the one that was supposed to be a normal Carnifex I can't stand.

I keep changing my mind every time I see a Screamer Killer type on ebay. Mainly because I'd want three identical ones and I'm never going to waste money on 6. So my only Carnifex right now is the original Old One Eye (aka he of the constantly falling apart claws). I had to rebuild him from scratch once so he'd stand up properly and couldn't get his leg off so I stuffed his pelvis in the freezer for a few hours and then dropped it off a 3rd story balcony.

Thankfully it only broke where I wanted it to :smallcool:


Also, I can confirm that the (very rare) variation of the Space Crusade Tyranid Warrior in the 1993 catalogue was indeed made of metal. It is actually my favorite tyranid warrior model of all time, and one of the few I still own.

I prefer the metal venom-cannon one, but that's only because its the only one I owned for a long time.

[snowblizz]

Not consistently. The design team say that when interviewed but its kind of untrue.

To start with, that comment when it was made around the 3rd edition book only really seemed to apply to the melee weapons, not the ranged ones. 3rd edition introduced Scything talons (previously Hormagaunts and Carnifexes had talons that weren't considered a weapon type) to replace boneswords and lashwhips (except for Hive Guard who were new and had lashwhips). 3rd ed plastic tyranids (eg the same as the current gaunts and warriors) still have guns they hold in their hands, they just have a few cables going to their body.


This depends on how one views it I guess. But 3rd did move towards symbiotic weapons. Meaning that weapons have grown together with the creature wielding it, if it was not already a integral part. 3rd also ran the gamut of variant biomorphs available for customisation.

Since most Nids were able to come with different weapon biomorphs it does make sense that as little modification as possible to the creature template is done to respond to changes. You see this in that hand and fingers are morphed into the weapons. How pronounced it is has changed ofc, e.g. the 3rd plastic Warriors shared the "big weapons" with the Tyrant and Carnifex models.