Let's Be Invisible in 3.5!

[Doctor Despair]

What's the stealthiest character we can make? With the level-buy-off system, up to LA+3 can be paid off before level 20, so let's set a cap at that for racial abilities and templates. We are also assuming your DM is allowing you to retrain the entry requirements for PrCs as is technically allowed, to give us some more free reign. After the requisite hide and move silently checks, let's try to buff sleight of hand as well. Here's what I've been brainstorming so far:

Edit: Added some assassin stuff for flavor and so that we actually do something in combat every once in a while

Raw Character Info

Template: God-Blooded of Vecna (protection from divination)
Race: Human, polymorphed into a Domovoi +3

Class --- Feat

1 Rogue------------------------| Martial Study (Shadowhand: Stalker in the Night), Swift and Silent
2 Rogue------------------------|
3 Lightbringer Rogue----------| Item Familiar (funneling points into the three)
4 Rogue------------------------|
5 Shadow Thief of Amn-------|
6 Assassin---------------------| Weapon Finesse
7 Assassin---------------------|
8 Assassin---------------------|
9 Assassin---------------------| Favored in Guild – Jaezred Chaulssin (flavor to Telflammar Shadowwalker)
10 Assassin--------------------|
11 Assassin--------------------|
12 Assassin--------------------| Ability Focus: Death Attack
13 Assassin--------------------|
14 Assassin--------------------|
15 Telflammar Shadowwalker| Darkstalker (Flavor to X local Assassin Guild)
16 Telflammar Shadowwalker|
17 Telflammar Shadowwalker|
18 Telflammar Shadowwalker| Martial Stance: Assassins Stance
19 Telflammar Shadowwalker|
20 Telflammar Shadowwalker|
21 Assassin--------------------| Epic Feat of Epicness

Sneak Attack = 10d6

Items and Character Wealth

- Cowl of Warding: mind blank, freedom of movement
- Cloak of Solid Fox 3/day
- Mask of Truesight 3/day
- Amulet of Intelligence
- Vest of Camouflage 3/day
- Deathstrike Bracers 3/day
- Ring of Greater Invisibility (cheaper alternative: wand of no light, ring of the darkhidden)
- Ring of Ghostform 3/day
- Gloves of Dexterity
- Belt of Battle 3 charges
- Lead-Lined Bag of Holding
- Wand of Invisible, Enlarged, Sculpted Obscuring Mist
- Feycraft, Small Assassins' Dagger w/ Ghosttouch

- All items have Magic Aura cast on them to hide them when they are invisible from detect spells, assassin is immune to divination abilities and by extension so are the items immune to locate abilities

- Item familiar has increased sapience (it is not a creature, so the telepathy is not foiled by Hellbreaker)
- Item familiar has deathwatch as lesser power (to determine what is death-attack-able)
- Ask for GM fiat, item familiar casts silence (personal) at will as greater power

- Wish for alternate class feature; trade out poison resistance for bonus feat every 4 class levels in assassin (shadow blade, deadly precision)
- Wish for Crippling Strike

- Cost to join Telflammar Shadowwalkers

Skills:

23 ranks in each, a +30 competency item for each, some source of invisibility for a +20, and item familiar ranks pumping each to 80 - 100 range. What other neat tips and tricks can we do to be truly invisible?

Over ~250 skill points to divvy out, with ~200 of them as actual ranks

Core: (Critical and Opposed/High DC)
Hide (max)
Move Silently (max)
Sleight of Hand (max)
Search (24 bonus)
Disable Device (24 bonus)
Use Magic Device (29) more for epic checks, cannot take 10

Secondary (can take 10/20/ Low DC):
Open Lock (bonus of 18 between attribute points and ranks)
Balance (spare points, probably never used, silly high max DCs)
Climb (spiderclimb)
Tumble (15 with ability scores)
Escape Artist (15 with ability scores)
Gather Information (spare points, no max DC)
Sense Motive (face)
Bluff (face)
Diplomacy (face)
Intimidate (face)

[nedz]

If you used Ranger instead of Rogue then you can add in +10 Hide (Camouflage-circumstance) and +10 Hide/+10 Move S (Forestfold-competance) — though only in natural settings. Also you get Camouflage and HiPS class features.

[ryu]

Try to work in some spellcaster levels for invisible spell metamagic. Use that on invisibility specifically in case vecna blooded isn't ruled to stop true seeing. Not to mention all the other stealth and tactical teleporting utility.

[Beheld]

Persistent Ghostform and Persistent Superior Invisibility, also Mindblank and/or Non-Detection at the highest CL you can give yourself, ask your DM how True Seeing interacts with Mindblank, use Non-Detection if you need it. You could probably also just be evil and Vecna Blooded if you want.

[Doctor Despair]

If you used Ranger instead of Rogue then you can add in +10 Hide (Camouflage-circumstance) and +10 Hide/+10 Move S (Forestfold-competance) — though only in natural settings. Also you get Camouflage and HiPS class features.

That's fair! Of course, not all combat will take place outside. I was trying to add in some amount of utility to this build (yes, you are hiding and can steal things, but what else?), hence the rogue and assassin for sneak attacks. If I'm not mistaken, you would get the camouflage circumstantial bonus even if you weren't a ranger?

[AvatarVecna]

You could probably also just be evil and Vecna Blooded if you want.

Seconding this, especially considering you're taking Assassin levels anyway.

[stanprollyright]

Dark (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/dark.shtml) Whispergnome Beguiler with Darkstalker.

[Chronos]

The [Illithid] Slayer's 6th-level ability Cerebral Blind is quite a nice protection, too.

At the top level of optimization, though, detection always beats stealth, because the only thing that beats a sufficiently-high Spot check is an even higher Hide check, and Spot can be boosted much higher than Hide.

[Doctor Despair]

Dark (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/dark.shtml) Whispergnome Beguiler with Darkstalker.


Dark looks really good! Vecna-Blooded's immunity to divinity (Monster Manual 5) is really hard to give up though. Can you apply more than one template to a character? Or is that too cheesey?

[Doctor Despair]

The [Illithid] Slayer's 6th-level ability Cerebral Blind is quite a nice protection, too.

At the top level of optimization, though, detection always beats stealth, because the only thing that beats a sufficiently-high Spot check is an even higher Hide check, and Spot can be boosted much higher than Hide.

That is true -- but that doesn't mean there's no point in trying! Cerebral Blind looks like a good fallback for Godblooded if the campaign ends up having us going against Vecna's wishes, haha, though iirc the DMs I've met have been wary of psionics.

[Beheld]

The [Illithid] Slayer's 6th-level ability Cerebral Blind is quite a nice protection, too.

At the top level of optimization, though, detection always beats stealth, because the only thing that beats a sufficiently-high Spot check is an even higher Hide check, and Spot can be boosted much higher than Hide.

Except you know, Superior Invisibility, which automatically negates all spot checks.

[TheifofZ]

Certain forms of non-ethereal undead grant bonuses to stealth or dex, as well.
Bone Creature, I believe, gives +4 Dex, for example.

[Crake]

Except you know, Superior Invisibility, which automatically negates all spot checks.

No it doesn't. Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) confers a +40 bonus to hide while stationary, and +20 while moving. Someone beating that spot check knows the presence of a creature, and someone beating that check by 20 or more can pinpoint the square that the creature is in.

Then of course there's blindsight/sense/tremorsense etc that can find you while invisible, requiring darkstalker, which basically means that they no longer need to beat your hide check by 20 or more to pinpoint you (or can ignore hide completely if they beat your move silently with their listen).

[nedz]

That's fair! Of course, not all combat will take place outside. I was trying to add in some amount of utility to this build (yes, you are hiding and can steal things, but what else?), hence the rogue and assassin for sneak attacks. If I'm not mistaken, you would get the camouflage circumstantial bonus even if you weren't a ranger?

Well it does depend on the campaign. In an Urban game Rogue is superior, whilst in the Wilderness the Ranger has the advantage. There is nothing stopping the Rogue UMDing these spells mind, but an urban based one wouldn't bother.

Another Wilderness option is Halfling Druid, which gets the same spells (sooner) as well as the relevant skills. It doesn't get the class features - though there are some useful Druid ones available.

[ben-zayb]

Vecna-Blooded Imp (3HD) / Beguiler 1 / Swordsage 1 / Fiend of Possession 1 / Ur-Priest 9 / Shadowdancer 1, with Mark of Cania and Moment of Perfect Mind for +NI to Hide and Move Silently (and actually all skills, attack rolls, damage rolls, and checks)

[Beheld]

No it doesn't. Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility) confers a +40 bonus to hide while stationary, and +20 while moving. Someone beating that spot check knows the presence of a creature, and someone beating that check by 20 or more can pinpoint the square that the creature is in.

Then of course there's blindsight/sense/tremorsense etc that can find you while invisible, requiring darkstalker, which basically means that they no longer need to beat your hide check by 20 or more to pinpoint you (or can ignore hide completely if they beat your move silently with their listen).


This powerful glamer functions like invisibility (PH 245), except that it masks image, scent, and sound alike, concealing the subject from all senses except touch. As with greater invisibility, this spell doesn't end if the subject attacks. While invisible, the subject exudes no scent and is undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight.
Superior invisibility renders the recipient immune to detection by see invisibility, faerie fire, glitterdust, invisibility purge, and dust of appearance, although creatures under the effect of the spell can be detected by true seeing. Certain mundane conditions (such as leaving footprints) can also render a subject detectable.

It negates all those things, and based on the language, there is a very strong argument that it negates the ability to make a spot check to locate the creature. You add Ghostform to negate physical detection by any means.

[Doctor Despair]

It negates all those things, and based on the language, there is a very strong argument that it negates the ability to make a spot check to locate the creature. You add Ghostform to negate physical detection by any means.

Trueseeing would still be tough, but I suppose there's always an invisible spell'd, enlarged fog spell for that! (If they use their truesight, they see a fog bank. Certainly suspicious, but difficult to act on.)

However, it says it functions as invisibility, but is immune to those other sight abilities, like scent. Wouldn't that imply that if something relies on scent, it would be unable to see the invisible creature, but if it just pumped spot and was capable of making those checks, it would function under the rules for invisibility (and therefore give the +20-40 modifier)?

[Deophaun]

It negates all those things, and based on the language, there is a very strong argument that it negates the ability to make a spot check to locate the creature.
The "very strong argument" could be equally applied to anything that provided concealment (as that's the word it hinges upon), including regular-old invisibility, which means it's actually not a very strong argument at all.

[Beheld]

The "very strong argument" could be equally applied to anything that provided concealment (as that's the word it hinges upon), including regular-old invisibility, which means it's actually not a very strong argument at all.

Actually no part of the definition of concealment ever uses the verb conceal. Instead the entire definition is based on the noun form and effects that grant it.

[Crake]

It negates all those things, and based on the language, there is a very strong argument that it negates the ability to make a spot check to locate the creature. You add Ghostform to negate physical detection by any means.

It doesn't say that you cannot be detected by spot checks, the whole point of the spot check is to notice things like footprints, or the dust in the air being disturbed and the like, so you can still be spotted by an absurdly high spot check. The fact that you make no sound has no bearing on darkstalker, because it's using an extraordinary means of perception, so you still need to roll that move silently to avoid it, and being incorporeal does not get around ALL forms of extraoardinary means of perception, just some. Finally, none of it makes you undetectable to mindsight in any way.

It could also be argued that it "masks image, sound [...] alike" means that you aren't actually completely silent, merely getting the same bonus to move silently as you do to hide.

[Beheld]

It doesn't say that you cannot be detected by spot checks, the whole point of the spot check is to notice things like footprints, or the dust in the air being disturbed and the like, so you can still be spotted by an absurdly high spot check. The fact that you make no sound has no bearing on darkstalker, because it's using an extraordinary means of perception, so you still need to roll that move silently to avoid it, and being incorporeal does not get around ALL forms of extraoardinary means of perception, just some. Finally, none of it makes you undetectable to mindsight in any way.

You on the one hand claim that the spot check is designed to find something that doesn't even show up when incorporeal, and then you talk about darkstalker being used to detect people? Even though that is literally the opposites of what it does. Presumably you mean Blindsight, but again, the spell explicitly states that it makes you undetectable by blindsight. Thirdly, but RAW lots of things simultaneously do and don't work on mindsight, touchsight, and lifesight, because those detection methods aren't in the PHB, and that matters a ton, because mindsight can have a range of infinity just by slapping it on the nearest MM Demon. Why darkstalker doesn't mention mindsight I have no idea. But incorporeal should be enough to beat touchsight by any sane interpretation, and mindblank should be enough to beat mindsight by any reasonable interpretation. Lifesight is clear as mud, but whatever.


It could also be argued that it "masks image, sound [...] alike" means that you aren't actually completely silent, merely getting the same bonus to move silently as you do to hide.

Doesn't even matter, since being incorporeal means you don't make sound.

[Crake]

You on the one hand claim that the spot check is designed to find something that doesn't even show up when incorporeal, and then you talk about darkstalker being used to detect people? Even though that is literally the opposites of what it does.

No, i'm talking about when someone tries to detect someone else with darkstalker. I am aware of how darkstalker functions.


Presumably you mean Blindsight, but again, the spell explicitly states that it makes you undetectable by blindsight. Thirdly, but RAW lots of things simultaneously do and don't work on mindsight, touchsight, and lifesight, because those detection methods aren't in the PHB, and that matters a ton,

There are plenty of creatures with innate blindsight, or other extraordinary senses.


because mindsight can have a range of infinity just by slapping it on the nearest MM Demon.

Why you think this I have no idea, demons have far from infinite range telepathy.


Why darkstalker doesn't mention mindsight I have no idea. But incorporeal should be enough to beat touchsight by any sane interpretation, and mindblank should be enough to beat mindsight by any reasonable interpretation. Lifesight is clear as mud, but whatever.

Reasonable interpretation is debatable, by RAW it does nothing, anything beyond that is a houserule. The spell itself even states that they are either ineffective, or partially effective. What that means is entirely up to DM interpretation, but it still doesn't make you completely undetectable. Mindblank has no bearing on mindsight, as mindsight is not a divination, nor is it mind affecting.


Doesn't even matter, since being incorporeal means you don't make sound.

This is irrelevant, because there is no skill for hiding from extraordinary senses. The hide and move silently check required by darkstalker to avoid extraordinary senses is used as a proxy for hiding from those senses. It doesn't matter if you are visually and audibly undetectable, you still need to made hide and move silently checks to use darkstalker to hide from those senses if you would normally be detectable by them.

[Beheld]

No, i'm talking about when someone tries to detect someone else with darkstalker. I am aware of how darkstalker functions.

You called darkstalker "an extraordinary means of perception" the least you could do is tell me what you meant to say.


There are plenty of creatures with innate blindsight, or other extraordinary senses.

So? Who cares? How is that even remotely relevant to the statement that Superior Invisibility negates all those senses innate or spell?


Reasonable interpretation is debatable, by RAW it does nothing, anything beyond that is a houserule.

By Raw I can wish for a ring of infinite wishes from a Efferti, and then live forever on the fat bank of being a level 18 character at level 3. If you have an obviously mind affecting effect like mindsight, and an obviously physical touch based effect like touchsight doesn't work on incorporeal people.


The spell itself even states that they are either ineffective, or partially effective. What that means is entirely up to DM interpretation, but it still doesn't make you completely undetectable.

No, the spell specifically states that you are "undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight." What that means is not up to DM interpretation. It means that you are undetectable by those means. And that, unsurprisingly, means you are completely undetectable.


Mindblank has no bearing on mindsight, as mindsight is not a divination, nor is it mind affecting.

Also the spell "Dominate Person, but without the mind affecting tag" is not mind affecting, but it still obviously effects the mind, and therefore is dumb. Mindsight should have the mind affecting tag.


This is irrelevant, because there is no skill for hiding from extraordinary senses. The hide and move silently check required by darkstalker to avoid extraordinary senses is used as a proxy for hiding from those senses. It doesn't matter if you are visually and audibly undetectable, you still need to made hide and move silently checks to use darkstalker to hide from those senses if you would normally be detectable by them.

This is highly relevant since it is the entire ****ing point of the conversation. The spell specifically makes you undetectable by extraordinary senses. That is the entire point. You need to literally zero checks of any kind to be completely undetectable by blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, and scent. It would probably include mindsight and touchsight if they were in the PHB. Why you keep about how the text of darkstalker contradicts what I am saying the spell Superior Invisibility does is completely beyond me.

[Crake]

You called darkstalker "an extraordinary means of perception" the least you could do is tell me what you meant to say.

You simply misinterpreted who in the scenario had darkstalker. I was simply talking about people with darkstalker vs people with extraordinary means of perception.


No, the spell specifically states that you are "undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight." What that means is not up to DM interpretation. It means that you are undetectable by those means. And that, unsurprisingly, means you are completely undetectable.

Not the version i'm looking at, which is the one in the spell compendium, and thus the most up to date version and the one you should be using. It says "Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to you." The exact same line used in the incorporeal entry in the SRD.


Also the spell "Dominate Person, but without the mind affecting tag" is not mind affecting, but it still obviously effects the mind, and therefore is dumb. Mindsight should have the mind affecting tag.

Whether you feel something should have the mind affecting tag or not is irrelevant. Mindsight doesn't affect minds, it "sees" them. The only thing that would work against mindsight is things that block telepathy, since if you don't have telepathy, you don't have mindsight. Unless you're going to also tell me that telepathy itself is mind affecting, and thus undead, plants and constructs cannot be communicated to via telepathy. And just because something functions just like another spell mechanically doesn't mean it has to inherit all the descriptors, the same effect can be caused through different means. Take necrotic dominate for example, it controls people just like dominate person does, but it does it via a non-mind affecting route, hence the spell is not considered mind affecting.

If you choose to make your own houserules at your table, go ahead, but don't bring them here and try to force them on other people as if those are how the rules were meant to be. There's a reason we use RAW on the forums here, it's the only universal means of communication in a game that is too complicated already without taking people's personal houserules into account. It's fine to suggest a houserule, but don't come here saying "it's obvious that X is true", because what you believe to be obvious, someone else may not.


This is highly relevant since it is the entire ****ing point of the conversation. The spell specifically makes you undetectable by extraordinary senses. That is the entire point. You need to literally zero checks of any kind to be completely undetectable by blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, and scent. It would probably include mindsight and touchsight if they were in the PHB. Why you keep about how the text of darkstalker contradicts what I am saying the spell Superior Invisibility does is completely beyond me.

See above about how you're using an outdated version of the ghostform spell. Actually, I just went and looked at all of the versions of ghostform I could find. Absolutely none of them use the terminology you described. The line I quoted above is word for word from the spell compendium version of the spell, but none of them say anything as absolute as the line you wrote.

Also, darkstalker and mindsight are in the same book, if they were intended to interact, they would have said so. Again, you stating your opinions like they're the rules does nobody a service.

[Deophaun]

First, other things to be totally invisible:

Misdirection cast on a normal rock.
Magic aura on every worn magic item.
Lead lining to cover all your non-worn magic items (scrolls, potions, etc.)

Need all of those, otherwise you're still detectable to a cantrip.


Actually no part of the definition of concealment ever uses the verb conceal.
No, it just uses the word related to the verb conceal, and it does so in relation to sound and scent, because the designers were operating under the mistaken belief that the people they wrote it for spoke English.

This is quite simple. This is the game definition of invisible:

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.)
So, the question is, if you are concealed from sight, are you visually undetectable? The answer to that question would be "yes." Unless the spell specifically says you cannot use sight to detect them (like fog cloud), the rules for detecting invisible creatures via Spot are in play.

Again, if superior invisibility defeats Spot, then so does absolutely every other form of total concealment and the Spot rule is dysfunctional.

[Beheld]

First, Doctor Despair, I'm sorry I missed this entirely contentful post amidst the others and I will address it now.


Trueseeing would still be tough, but I suppose there's always an invisible spell'd, enlarged fog spell for that! (If they use their truesight, they see a fog bank. Certainly suspicious, but difficult to act on.)

However, it says it functions as invisibility, but is immune to those other sight abilities, like scent. Wouldn't that imply that if something relies on scent, it would be unable to see the invisible creature, but if it just pumped spot and was capable of making those checks, it would function under the rules for invisibility (and therefore give the +20-40 modifier)?

True Seeing is easily negated by either Mindblank or Non-Detection. By RAW Mindblank completely negates True Seeing 100% with no chance of failure, however, because that is obviously stupid and terrible for the game, most DMs will probably object to that. Non-Detection specifically has a more reasonable Caster Level check, so some DMs may allow that to negate true seeing in the case of a failed Caster Level Check.

As to your point about the +40 spot check, arguably it may have that effect, arguably by being completely silent, invisible, scentless, and being incorporeal, and thus not physically interacting with the world, your DM may rule that all the possible means of figuring out your location are gone, and that the spot DC was based on seeing other effects that are no longer present.

But even if they don't it does give you a free +40 to spot no matter what, and everything Darkstalker gives you except the incredibly dumb thing where Dragons with 38 ranks in spot and zero ranks in listen aren't allowed to roll spot checks if your MS is higher the Hide.


You simply misinterpreted who in the scenario had darkstalker. I was simply talking about people with darkstalker vs people with extraordinary means of perception.

You quoted me talking about zero people having Darkstalker, and responded by talking about Darkstalker. Therefore you misinterpreted who in the scenario had darkstalker, because zero people in the scenario had darkstalker.


Not the version i'm looking at, which is the one in the spell compendium, and thus the most up to date version and the one you should be using. It says "Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to you." The exact same line used in the incorporeal entry in the SRD.

No, what it says is "the subject exudes no scent and is undetectable by scent, blindsense, tremorsense, and blindsight." Because the spell is called Superior Invisibility. You literally quoted the post which has the entire text of the spell Superior Invisibility in it, under the heading "Superior Invisibility" and decided I was talking about the text of Ghostform?


If you choose to make your own houserules at your table, go ahead, but don't bring them here and try to force them on other people as if those are how the rules were meant to be.

How about if instead you don't make up convoluted bull**** that I didn't say and attribute it to me? Was I "forcing" anyone to do anything? No, then why do you tell me not to? To give them impression that I am an unreasonable monster hellbent on destroying other people's games? How about just don't do that.

What did I actually say? X is the RAW, however your average DM, and thus the OP's DM is likely to rule Y. How is this a travesty of such epic preportions?


See above about how you're using an outdated version of the ghostform spell. Actually, I just went and looked at all of the versions of ghostform I could find. Absolutely none of them use the terminology you described. The line I quoted above is word for word from the spell compendium version of the spell, but none of them say anything as absolute as the line you wrote.

Except the spell I specifically said does that, and then quoted the text of, in the post you quoted. Except the spell compendium version of that spell, but other than that spell, the one I quoted, and named, and specifically referred to, aside from that, none of the versions of a second spell that you use for a different effect says the thing that the first spell says.


First, other things to be totally invisible:

Misdirection cast on a normal rock.
Magic aura on every worn magic item.
Lead lining to cover all your non-worn magic items (scrolls, potions, etc.)

Need all of those, otherwise you're still detectable to a cantrip.

Or you know, Mindblank and Non-Detection, which already protect against those. Presumably you already wear all your items under something that blocks line of effect in the first place, just because you don't want them to be dispelled or sundered, and this also works for detection.


This is quite simple. This is the game definition of invisible:

So, the question is, if you are concealed from sight, are you visually undetectable? The answer to that question would be "yes." Unless the spell specifically says you cannot use sight to detect them (like fog cloud), the rules for detecting invisible creatures via Spot are in play.

Again, if superior invisibility defeats Spot, then so does absolutely every other form of total concealment and the Spot rule is dysfunctional.

Except that the game definition of invisible includes all that stuff under the special ability invisible.

But like I said, it has more to do with the wording of Superior Invisibility and Incorporeality than it does with the spell invisibility.

[Chronos]

Quoth Crake:

Also, darkstalker and mindsight are in the same book, if they were intended to interact, they would have said so.
Of course they interact, because one's a means of detection and the other is a means of stealth. The problem is that, despite being in the same book, it doesn't say how they interact. Mindsight beating Darkstalker and Darkstalker beating Mindsight are both interactions, and the book isn't as clear as it should be on which one defeats which. Mindsight probably wins, because it's not on the specific list given in Darkstalker, but then again, Mindsight also says that it's "much like blindsense", which is on the Darkstalker list. In any event, it wouldn't have cost much ink to specifically say in one of the feats, which would clear up all the confusion.

[thethird]

Darkstalker: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you.

Incorporeal: An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be.

If hearing an incorporeal creature has a DC of ∞, then an incorporeal creature with darkstalker can stay hidden as long as it wants to.

Take 3 levels of ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a), and at least a level of hellbreaker for the telepathic static (that will deal with mindsight).

Also be a human's ghost with human heritage to get rid of the undead type.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Now it's the question whether DC -- acts as DC ∞. I don't think it does. The operation A > B simply does not work when one of the arguments is NaN.

In other words, when incorporeal creatures are considered, the rule is something like "make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever #ERROR)".

[Doctor Despair]

Is there any way to search faster than one square per round for ease of movement? Or would anything like that be houserules? Also, is there any way to avoid a proximity-triggered trap, since you technically couldn't search and disarm such a trap as a Rogue without triggering it...?

[AvatarVecna]

Is there any way to search faster than one square per round for ease of movement?

Apocalypse From The Sky? That can search a lot of squares at once...

[ahenobarbi]

That's fair! Of course, not all combat will take place outside. I was trying to add in some amount of utility to this build (yes, you are hiding and can steal things, but what else?), hence the rogue and assassin for sneak attacks. If I'm not mistaken, you would get the camouflage circumstantial bonus even if you weren't a ranger?

When under effect of Acorn of Far Travel spell you are considered to be in a Forrester terrain. The spell lasts day/ level and is on your list so havig it up all the time is easy.

[nedz]

Is there any way to search faster than one square per round for ease of movement? Or would anything like that be houserules? Also, is there any way to avoid a proximity-triggered trap, since you technically couldn't search and disarm such a trap as a Rogue without triggering it...?

Sacrificial Monster Summoning.

[Lhurgyof]

Ring of the Darkhidden + a wand of No Light. Boom, improved invisibility from most things for very little gold. I think this should be at least added in the place of the ring of improved invisibility.

[Doctor Despair]

Some general questions about this build...


1.) Is this good enough to go unnoticed for three rounds at close range?

2.) Will this be able to make an attack roll on a high-power thing? Granted the bonuses from Ghostform and a Truestrike.

3.) Will this be able to break through damage reduction and deal damage at this level?

4.) Is the DC high enough to have any amount of success at this level?



The character's quest would naturally be to steal something that ought not be stolen, or kill someone who ought not be killed (although the latter might require some DM love in getting a weapon enchantment to assassinate things that are immune to death effects).

[ryu]

Now what exactly do you mean by high powered? In order to form an accurate measure of that we need an estimate at least of the sort of thing you're talking about.

[Doctor Despair]

Level 20 character, so CR 20-30 enemies.

[ryu]

Level 20 character, so CR 20-30 enemies.

If they aren't casters? Certainly. If they are casters but low tier or not really optimized? Most likely. If they're practically optimized high-tier casters? Might get a bit dicey and not just in punny way. Non-practically optimized caster? Probably not.

[Doctor Despair]

If they aren't casters? Certainly. If they are casters but low tier or not really optimized? Most likely. If they're practically optimized high-tier casters? Might get a bit dicey and not just in punny way. Non-practically optimized caster? Probably not.

Any caster with access to soulfire armor or any necromancy spells is a bit dicey, haha. So my DM is new to 3.5, but I don't want to take advantage of that. If I was going to suggest some epic enchantment to apply death attacks to creatures otherwise immune to sneak attack or death attacks, do you have any ideas on what might be balanced while still being, you know, worth having?

Increasing the wait time from three rounds to six? To ten?

Lowering the DC to 3/4ths?

Or would it be more flavorful to change the save, mechanically, to will (severing the astral cord)? Deities adding their Divine Ranks to the save? Of course that leaves constructs unfettered by such an attack (not living constructs, mind you), but I suppose a wand of Ray of Deanimation would handle that.

What seems balanced without sacrificing utility? And this would be something I'd suggest he put into the campaign as a quest objective at some point (it is epic level), not just something I'd try to have, because... well, death attack is strong as it is. Just increasingly less useful at high levels as things gain immunity to death effects.

[nedz]

Some general questions about this build...


1.) Is this good enough to go unnoticed for three rounds at close range?

2.) Will this be able to make an attack roll on a high-power thing? Granted the bonuses from Ghostform and a Truestrike.

3.) Will this be able to break through damage reduction and deal damage at this level?

4.) Is the DC high enough to have any amount of success at this level?



The character's quest would naturally be to steal something that ought not be stolen, or kill someone who ought not be killed (although the latter might require some DM love in getting a weapon enchantment to assassinate things that are immune to death effects).

It's also important how much build resources you put into this. There is no point being a stealthy one trick pony, if you can't do anything else.

[Doctor Despair]

Tentative thought:

"Prompted Epic Homebrew Weapon Enhancement: (Bane of Undeath +6) Any creature that would normally be immune to a death attack or effect by means of a spell, ability, or by divinity instead becomes more vulnerable to such attacks from this weapon, as their karmic bind to the universe weakens. The target of this effect must make a check where the DC is equal to the Assassin's normal Death Attack modifier; the target receives a bonus of one half their fortitude save or, in the case of deities, (their constitution modifier + their divine rank) (half their constitution score plus their divine rank) to their roll. Upon failure, such a creature is immediately killed so long as their soul or life force is connected to the body and actively controlling it, as the attack severs their astral cord. This occurs despite any effects to the contrary, magical, divine, or otherwise. This enhancement has no effect on creatures that do not possess such death-defying abilities and effects."

Any thoughts on this enhancement? Perhaps it is only able to be applied by an epic crafter who has observed Githyanki silver swords and learned from them, improving on the concept?

[Beheld]

Tentative thought:

"Prompted Epic Homebrew Weapon Enhancement: (Bane of Undeath +6) Any creature that would normally be immune to a death attack or effect by means of a spell, ability, or divinity instead becomes more vulnerable to such strikes from this weapon, as their karmic bind to the universe weakens. The target must instead make an opposed check where the DC is equal to the Assassin's normal Death Attack modifier, but the target receives a bonus of one half their fortitude save or, in the case of deities, (their constitution modifier + their divine rank) (half their constitution score plus their divine rank) to their roll. Upon failure, such a creature is immediately killed (despite any effects to the contrary, magical, divine, or otherwise) and cannot be revived by any means. Such an enhanced weapon is one of the few things capable of severing an astral cord. This enhancement has no effect on creatures unaffected by such death-defying abilities and effects."

Any thoughts on this enhancement?

Half of that is completely incapable of being understood. I think it has two completely contradictory statements about the save? Also, the wording of the whole "dies and can't be revived" is terrible. If the target has a clone, or a contingency, or is a lich, or whatever, they should probably be able to come to life or unlife by their respective methods. And a Wish should probably revive them to, just like literally every other method of killing people.

[Doctor Despair]

Half of that is completely incapable of being understood. I think it has two completely contradictory statements about the save? Also, the wording of the whole "dies and can't be revived" is terrible. If the target has a clone, or a contingency, or is a lich, or whatever, they should probably be able to come to life or unlife by their respective methods. And a Wish should probably revive them to, just like literally every other method of killing people.

Fair enough to all that -- as for the save, I had the two clauses because I'm not sure which one is more balanced, or if either one is.

[Heliomance]

I'd suggest Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin instead of the normal variants, to get access to Compression, and some other very useful psionic bits and bobs.

As for Telepathic Static, it's only a partial counter to Mindsight.


Telepathic Static (Su): Beginning at 1st level, you emit a field of psychic chatter out to a range of 20 feet, negating the telepathy ability of all creatures within range.


A creature that has this feat can detect and pinpoint beings that are not mindless (anything with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher) within range of its telepathy.

If a telepathic creature is within 20 feet of you, they lose their telepathy entirely, meaning they can't see anything with their mindsight (as the range of their telepathy is null). If they're not within 20 feet of you, they're not impaired at all, and can detect you just fine. It's not a 20 foot bubble of "mindsight can't see anything here", it's a 20 foot bubble of "creatures within this bubble are not telepathic".

[Dgrin]

I'd suggest Psychic Rogue and Psychic Assassin instead of the normal variants, to get access to Compression, and some other very useful psionic bits and bobs.

I second this suggestion, especially considering that it gives you the access to Cloud Mind that is also one of the few RAW ways to beat Mindsight. As was noted earlier in this thread, 6 levels of Slayer is basically the only reliable way to get constant protection from it.

By the way, if I remember correctly, you simply need to be incorporeal emotionless Vecna-blooded Necropolitan Illithid Slayer with Darkstalker not having any spells, spell-like abilities or magic items while still enjoying YES modifiers on Hide and Move Silently to be undetectable by any means... And, considering manifestation of powers is considered a psi-like ability, you'd better qualify for slayer not using a psionic class. Not too much :smalltongue:

[denthor]

Since you have level adjustment characters look into race called SKULK. They were in various different systems. Their main ability in 3.5 was being able To move at a full run and not lose the camouflage hide ability. Add of stealth to that since you start with a + 10 to hide you're better than most first level characters and many different characters. No and no penalty for a flat out run most stealthy character I never found in any of the books. Largest drawback they had no pupils in their eyes so anybody getting within close contact May realize you're not human. Natural skin color was blue or gray but that could change color at will so so long as you were conscious and thinking about it you can be whatever skin tone you needed to be. You could even blend in with the wall if need be