Faerie Were-Manta Ray; Help Make This Effective

[glitterbaby]

So one of my players is really interested in playing a lycanthrope faerie. She's looking to go with the Petal from Monster Manual 3 and wants to be a were-manta ray because she's really into calling them Sea Pancakes and picturing them with a pat of butter on their heads. I don't even know where to start here so I'm reaching out to the Playground to see how we might make her useful.

Level 8 Gestalt
38 Point Buy
I'm DM, not a lot is off limits. All 1st party material is cool, 3rd party and homebrew available upon request. Pathfinder material is usually ok as well.
Leadership is banned out, I don't want people to have multiple characters and while it would be easier to have this character exist and just play the cohort, I'd rather not.
No endless loops of any kind, we're looking for it to be playable.


Edit: Follow up questions: Do we go afflicted or natural? Should we try to grab a template to switch those animal HD to something useful like outsider via Saint or dragon via Half-Dragon?

[antoin]

Afflicted, unless I am greatly mistaken, requires a lot of Wisdom checks and Autohypnosis etc. to be able to control your form and not permanently turn into the animal. She should go with natural.

[avr]

Maybe she might be persuaded to go for a cloak of the manta ray instead? It might be better than sacrificing one entire side of the gestalt (4HD, +2 petal LA, +2 lycanthrope LA = 8). Or the druid class, wild shape could do the same thing.

If that's not an option, and effectively one side of the gestalt vanishes, then take a class which stands on its own. Ideally one which uses cha for full casting; sorcerer, urban druid, favoured soul, sha'ir, etc.

[glitterbaby]

So I asked. She says she likes the idea of having no control over the process so I think natural is out as well as the Cloak and Wild Shaping.

Edit: So to make the thing as RAW legal as I can get it we're now a Were-Dungeonbred-Young-Manta Ray Petal. The (cohort) on the LA is handwaved to just regular LA and then the Lycanthrope is being handwaved to being allowed to affect Fey.

[Jeff the Green]

So I asked. She says she likes the idea of having no control over the process so I think natural is out as well as the Cloak and Wild Shaping.

Is there a reason she can't just fluff it as having no control? Just because the player does doesn't mean the character has to.

There's also the Pathfinder lycanthrope (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope). Nerfed compared to the 3.5 version, but you don't get the animal HD and the LA is only +1. (CR and LA are equivalent in PF.) I highly recommend it, especially since manta rays are kind of crappy.

[glitterbaby]

Is there a reason she can't just fluff it as having no control? Just because the player does doesn't mean the character has to.

There's also the Pathfinder lycanthrope (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope). Nerfed compared to the 3.5 version, but you don't get the animal HD and the LA is only +1. (CR and LA are equivalent in PF.) I highly recommend it, especially since manta rays are kind of crappy.

She's pretty set on not controlling it. The PF Lycanthrope is a fantastic suggestion, actually. Thanks a lot for that. Now she doesn't have to blow 6 levels of her gestalt on +2 wis/+2 natural armor. She was looking at a charisma casting class to take advantage of the +8 racial bonus from Petal so the -2 cha hurts a bit but it's way better than losing 5 more class levels.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Petals don't take a hit to con. I recommend she look at DFA, with Aquatic Adaptation Invocation she can even user her BW underwater. And since the BW is a class feature and not a racial ability; she keeps the use of it even in her other forms. BTW, what the heck does a hybrid ray/petal look like? And I guess you are also hand-waving the size limitation of were's as well? Tiny to Large = more than one size category change.

[Jeff the Green]

She's pretty set on not controlling it. The PF Lycanthrope is a fantastic suggestion, actually. Thanks a lot for that. Now she doesn't have to blow 6 levels of her gestalt on +2 wis/+2 natural armor. She was looking at a charisma casting class to take advantage of the +8 racial bonus from Petal so the -2 cha hurts a bit but it's way better than losing 5 more class levels.

The difference between 26 Cha and 24 Cha is negligible, really.

For classes, can I recommend the Spirit Shaman? Thematically appropriate, mostly Charisma-based (fully Charisma-based with Dynamic Priest), a good list, and more amenable to multiclassing than Druid.

On the other side (with the LA), I'd suggest Charisma stacking. Something like Battledancer 1/Paladin (of whatever) 2/Marshal 1/Cleric 1 (for divine feats and domains). That gets you Charisma (which should be something like +8) to AC, saves, and Initiative + Dex-based skills + Dex checks; and 11 turn attempts.

You could go a few ways. Archery is viable, with the Elf domain and Charming the Arrow (Charisma to attack with bows). Melee is too, with Warshaper and some form of extra damage like Sneak Attack + Craven. And of course pure casting is very powerful, particularly if you pick up Spontaneous Summoner (ideally switching it to Charisma).

[Necroticplague]

Is nobody else gonna point out that Lycanthrope template can only be applied to Humanoids or Giants, and not to Fey?

[ShurikVch]

Are you sure toothless plankton-eating Manta Ray count as "carnivorous or omnivorous creature"?

Also, they are size-incompatible: Petal is Tiny, Manta Ray - Large

[Grod_The_Giant]

Is nobody else gonna point out that Lycanthrope template can only be applied to Humanoids or Giants, and not to Fey?

the Lycanthrope is being handwaved to being allowed to affect Fey.
No.

Anyway, Pathfinder Lycanthrope should take care of most of the associated issues. I second slipping some Cha-stacking on the other side, if only because I don't know that you'd have very many levels left. Otherwise it's pretty much to to her- whatever class should work on the other side, and what she picks would affect what you want to complement it.

[ShurikVch]

Anyway, Pathfinder Lycanthrope should take care of most of the associated issues.Except the size difference.
Change Shape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Change-Shape-Su-):
A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form.Thus she will get only Lycanthropic Empathy and +2 Wis/–2 Cha. So much for +1 CR :smallsigh:

Why not a Stingray? :smallconfused:

[glitterbaby]

No.

Anyway, Pathfinder Lycanthrope should take care of most of the associated issues. I second slipping some Cha-stacking on the other side, if only because I don't know that you'd have very many levels left. Otherwise it's pretty much to to her- whatever class should work on the other side, and what she picks would affect what you want to complement it.

I think we're going to go with the Pathfinder Lycanthrope, it works much better than the 3.5 one for our purposes, entirely comical as they are.


Except the size difference.
Change Shape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Change-Shape-Su-):Thus she will get only Lycanthropic Empathy and +2 Wis/–2 Cha. So much for +1 CR :smallsigh:

Why not a Stingray? :smallconfused:

I wasn't aware the Stingray existed. My group plays 3.5 mostly with a few PF things allowed in upon request. Classes, feats, that sort of thing. We're definitely going with the CR 1/2 small stingray now, it fits what she wanted much better.

[Endarire]

Is this player doing this to be funny? What does she plan to focus on as a fey ray?

[DrMotives]

Is this player doing this to be funny? What does she plan to focus on as a fey ray?

Get carried up tall buildings by a kaiju templated gorilla?

[Jeff the Green]

Are you sure toothless plankton-eating Manta Ray count as "carnivorous or omnivorous creature"?

Unquestionably. They eat zooplankton in addition to phytoplankton, meaning they eat both animals and plants, meaning they're omnivores.

Stingrays are easy; they eat mostly invertebrates.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

Endarire and DrMotives, I present you each with a cookie....or maybe a sea biscuit.

[Endarire]

I'll take whatever's most optimal in deliciousness!

[Qwertystop]

Hm. Any way to keep flight ability in ray form? Otherwise, not going to get much out of it beyond effective amphibiousness.

[glitterbaby]

Hm. Any way to keep flight ability in ray form? Otherwise, not going to get much out of it beyond effective amphibiousness.

We played the one-shot today and she really enjoyed the character. She didn't use her fey ray form at all but she was entirely ok with it. She knew it was a suboptimal decision but she did it to be funny and it really worked out. She kept to her Petal form for the defenses it offered (tiny size and a +10 racial bonus to dex).

[Jeff the Green]

Hm. Any way to keep flight ability in ray form? Otherwise, not going to get much out of it beyond effective amphibiousness.

She'd also get a stinger natural weapon with a decent poison. And actually not amphiousness, since she wouldn't get the aquatic subtype thanks to PF changes to lycanthrope.

Actually, that's a good reason to go spirit shaman. Grab two levels of totemist on the other side and warshaper, bind phase cloak, use venomfire, and go crazy. Even with mediocre strength you should be able to do significant damage.

Here's what I'd do: LA +1/Marshal 1/Paladin 2/Swordsage 1/Totemist 2/Warshaper 1//Spirit Shaman 6/Mystic Wanderer 2

Next level, if her Wisdom's decent, pick up a second level of Swordsage. Otherwise more Warshaper. Don't bother with the capstone for a natural lycanthrope; it's redundant. For afflicted, definitely get it.

Pick up Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, and Multiattack. You've got two natural attacks with venomfire plus however many you can grow with warshaper. That's 2 * (Str + Dex + 8d6) + n * (Str + Dex) on a full attack. (Add more if you want to grab sneak attack from the swordsage stance, and grab craven next level for your level in damage.) Not shabby for a pancake of the sea.

[Qwertystop]

She'd also get a stinger natural weapon with a decent poison. And actually not amphiousness, since she wouldn't get the aquatic subtype thanks to PF changes to lycanthrope.

Effective amphibiousness,, I said. As in, taking completely animal form when going underwater is necessary.

Also... It says all special qualities and a few other things from the base creature are kept in all forms. Does that include flight?

[ShurikVch]

Since you starting at 8th level, I suggest to try Shapeshifter PrC from Oriental Adventures
Spell progression is only 5/10, but it gives Wild Shape, and required only Alternate Form, Concentration 10, and BAB 3+

If your game will be underwater, take note of some more PrCs: Wavekeeper (Stormwrack), and Darkwater Knight (Dragon #314); Waveservant (Faiths and Pantheons) too, if you OK to replace setting-dependent things