Small dispute about long rests and Elves

[ShamasTheBard]

So a player of mine is playing an elf and he believes that his 4 hours of meditation constitutes as a long rest. This is one of his biggest reasons for dropping his current character to play a different one. I'm not going to give a character all that extra spotlight by being awake and adventuring while the rest of the party is still asleep. It's unfun and unfair. It says right there in the players handbook that a long rest is 8 hours and it can be spent sleeping or doing light activity. His argument is that it says that a 4 hour meditation gives the benefits of an 8 hour sleep.

My argument is that it says sleep, not a long rest, which means he can use the remaining 4 hours to stand watch, research, and do light activity.

Am I being an unfair DM? I can't be.

[steppedonad4]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/12/1612/

[ShamasTheBard]

Thank you. I suppose if he feels that hurt over this subject then there is nothing I can really do. Honestly, that ability is not why you play an elf in the first place.

[JoeJ]

Thank you. I suppose if he feels that hurt over this subject then there is nothing I can really do. Honestly, that ability is not why you play an elf in the first place.

Does he really want to go out adventuring all alone while the rest of the party is asleep? You might want to point out how unwise that would be.

[taggedjc]

So a player of mine is playing an elf and he believes that his 4 hours of meditation constitutes as a long rest. This is one of his biggest reasons for dropping his current character to play a different one. I'm not going to give a character all that extra spotlight by being awake and adventuring while the rest of the party is still asleep. It's unfun and unfair. It says right there in the players handbook that a long rest is 8 hours and it can be spent sleeping or doing light activity. His argument is that it says that a 4 hour meditation gives the benefits of an 8 hour sleep.

My argument is that it says sleep, not a long rest, which means he can use the remaining 4 hours to stand watch, research, and do light activity.

Am I being an unfair DM? I can't be.

It does say sleep, and not a long rest. Sleeping for eight hours straight isn't a strict necessity for a long rest - a long rest only requires no activity more strenuous than two hours of watch, and various little things like sewing worn travel clothes, reading books, talking with other characters or making plans for after the rest, sorting loot, and so on, are all permitted during the eight hours of a long rest. I don't even think it technically says you have to sleep at all..

It's just that elves feel the way you do after you sleep for eight hours, but after only four hours of trance. They still need to rest up and not do anything too strenuous for the remaining four hours - maybe spend two hours on watch (which would be fair for a four-person group!) and two more hours organizing a stamp collection or whatnot.

He's trying to argue that the RAW claim he gets the benefit in half the time, but nowhere does the RAW say that.

(Besides, even if that is the case, aren't long rests restricted to once per 24 hours anyway? And regardless, they can't exactly up and leave the rest of their party behind, even if they get a long rest in just four hours whereas the non-elves take an extra four.. What do they think they're going to get to do in the meantime?)

[VoxRationis]

Your player has a point—it doesn't quite make sense for the 4-hour meditation to be "equal to 8 hours' sleep" in its description but not in practice. However, I second JoeJ's comment. If your dungeon is properly designed, he will not be able to safely do much on his own. The monsters would relish, I think, having a chance to reverse the normal disparity of actions per turn...

[Douche]

So what you guys are saying is that elves trance for 4 hours, but still have to sit around for an additional 4 hours to get a long rest? So mechanically, the trance does nothing? (Except perhaps making them slightly more alert than they would be if sleeping)

What's the point, then? Let's say my party has 2 elves and 4 humans. The 2 elves take their trance in the first 4 consecutive hours, then spend the next 4 hours on watch... However, after being on watch for 2 hours, they are ambushed. Do the elves get the benefits of a long rest?

I understand that having the elf go on solo adventures is kind of time consuming and pointless, but I don't get why all elves should be gimped that way. Anyhoo, my DM does give us elves a long rest in 4 hours so it doesn't really matter to me, I just don't get what the mechanics of giving elves the trance would be. Like, it seems pretty pointless otherwise. You should really just ask the elf in your party to stop going on solo adventures, or just put him in his place by having him be kidnapped by bandits and give the rest of the team get their own adventure without him to rescue him (or not)

[Cazero]

So what you guys are saying is that elves trance for 4 hours, but still have to sit around for an additional 4 hours to get a long rest? So mechanically, the trance does nothing? (Except perhaps making them slightly more alert than they would be if sleeping)
The point is that a human can take a long rest without sleeping at all. Sleep is the kind of activity you might want to do to kill time during a long rest. The DMG is silent on sleep-deprivation penalties, wich would probably be some kind of CON roll. That means a dwarf barbarian can easily make 96 hours of adventure straight, long rests and sleeping optional, while the elf wizard can barely go longer than 48 hours without trancing.


What's the point, then?
To waste half the time on that 'sleep' timedump. That time can be spent in any light activity that won't disturb a long rest. Some of those can be quite profitable.
It can also be considered as 4 more hours per day in each and every non-adventuring day, allowing elves to have like 25% more downtime. That one is OP.
In any case, it's virtual time that can be handwaved away, and nothing says the elf can't trance longer if he feels like it.


Let's say my party has 2 elves and 4 humans. The 2 elves take their trance in the first 4 consecutive hours, then spend the next 4 hours on watch... However, after being on watch for 2 hours, they are ambushed. Do the elves get the benefits of a long rest?
See the rules about interrupting a rest. Elves are no different in that aspect.


Like, it seems pretty pointless otherwise.
They have others, even more pointless racial features, like pointed ears and the inability to grow a fancy beard. This one can actually be of relevance in time-sensitive situations, wich is why it's emphasized with mechanics.

[MadBear]

Keep in mind their trance ability is far more of a ribbon then it is a real feature. Ribbon abilities are meant to add flavor to a character, not power.

It's not useless either. An elf can spend 2 hours on watch, and still have 2 hours of RP time outside everyone else. They just can't use that time to pillage the dungeon, or engage in their own side-quests. They can strike up a conversation, pour over dusty tomes in search of knowledge, study the runes in the room of the dungeon their in, cook breakfast for everyone, pull out that painting they've been working on, journal the previous day with these annoying humans, etc. There are a ton of things you can do with that extra 2-4 hours. You just don't get to dominate the campaign is all.

[DanyBallon]

The elven trance is a "ribbon" as the dev call such abilities. It is mostly there for fluff, not for crunch.

Just let your elf prepare meal while the other are still sleeping, or read a book, sharp his blade, the kind of light activity you usually do during long rest. The advantage of elves over any other races, is that they can do more during the same 8h span.

If you want a mechanical advantage, you can talk with your DM, about need less time learning a new skill, as you spend can spend more time practicing, even when adventuring.

[taggedjc]

One other thing. If you are asleep, you are incapacitated and unaware of your surroundings. An elf in Trance is not - this is why it's listed as a racial ability, instead of being pure fluff like the inability to grow a full beard.

As such, for example, an elf who happens to end up away from his traveling companions isn't at risk of someone coming along while he's in Trance and randomly using Create Thrall on him, for example, since he'll never naturally be incapacitated.

[DireSickFish]

The point is that a human can take a long rest without sleeping at all. Sleep is the kind of activity you might want to do to kill time during a long rest. The DMG is silent on sleep-deprivation penalties, wich would probably be some kind of CON roll. That means a dwarf barbarian can easily make 96 hours of adventure straight, long rests and sleeping optional, while the elf wizard can barely go longer than 48 hours without trancing.


I thought you took exhaustion for not sleeping every 24 hours? Not sure if I read this in the PHB or DMG but I'm away from book so can't confirm.

[Theodoxus]

I thought you took exhaustion for not sleeping every 24 hours? Not sure if I read this in the PHB or DMG but I'm away from book so can't confirm.

Nope. This came up in our last session and we scoured the books, and online resources. The DM eventually ruled a Con check: DC 10, +1 per hour of exertion (we were marching overland) - couple of us failed after the first check, so we ended up sleeping anyway... cuz, you know, f' exhaustion.

[DireSickFish]

I must be thinking of the starvation and dehydration rules.

[hymer]

One other thing. If you are asleep, you are incapacitated and unaware of your surroundings. An elf in Trance is not

Elves being proficient in Perception gives good synergy here, too. Two elves in a party, and there's no reason there won't always be a perception-capable person fully awake and alert. One elf, and you need the DM to rule on exactly what 'semiconscious' means.

[M Placeholder]

Does he really want to go out adventuring all alone while the rest of the party is asleep? You might want to point out how unwise that would be.

With a number of these guys. The taste of elves are chitin lickin' good for them.

http://utrpg.memethief.com/images/thumb/f/f5/Thri-kreen2.jpg/300px-Thri-kreen2.jpg

[Markoff Chainey]

I totally agree that the trance ability should not work as said player argues.

But besides my opinion, I fail to see how the RAW can be interpreted differently when carefully read.

My reasoning is as follows:
- What happens when a human sleeps for six hours and plays ping-pong with his unseen servant in a tent? - he gets the benefits of a long rest, right?
- What happens when this same human sleeps for 8 hours in his tent? - he gets the benefit of a long rest. He does not need to sleep for 8 hours, 6 would have been enough, yet, sleeping for 8 also qualifies as resting obviously.

Now, trance allows an elf to meditate for 4 hours (I would argue that this requires full attention and no concentration on anything else can be maintained during meditation) and to gain the same benefits as anybody else sleeping for 8 hours. As the later would allow for a long rest, the elf gets it after 4 hours of trance.

It is nowhere written, though, that an elf can do so as often as he pleases, so limiting it to once per day is fine.

[VoxRationis]

It's amazing how many people say "make breakfast for the party." I don't think becoming the party's valet is a good racial feature, even if just a "ribbon." And for those who argue "Oh, just do light downtime activities like polishing your sword or reading your spellbook," I argue this: those activities are already sort of handwaved to be done by human characters in and around the time they're sleeping. Saying that the elf takes 4 hours to do what the rest of the party does as they groggily wake up and search for coffee is kind of insulting.

[Mellack]

Elves get a free two hours a day to work on skills. As long as that is something that is considered light activity, they can be putting that time into learning a new skill or tool use. So while it is slow, they can pick up a "free" skill over time that other races wouldn't get. Additionally that time could be used for something like research, possibly allowing a check that you might not otherwise receive.

[Temperjoke]

I think part of the problem is that people feel they have to maximize every single thing that their character is doing, making a precise schedule to get every single advantage they can. So they see the elf trance as "Awesome, I'm only incapacitated for 4 hours instead of 8." My interpretation is, sure your character is only mentally incapacitated for 4 hours, instead of the 6-8 a regular person would be sleeping, but physically, you still need to chill another 4 hours for your body to feel back up to full ability.

I also think this problem is related to a much larger argument that is one of the forum constants: What does a long rest consist of? This is a debate that constantly pops up, because people interpret the rules differently.

[CoggieRagabash]

Elves being proficient in Perception gives good synergy here, too. Two elves in a party, and there's no reason there won't always be a perception-capable person fully awake and alert. One elf, and you need the DM to rule on exactly what 'semiconscious' means.

Can confirm. Played one of two elves in a party and it pretty much rendered the question of 'who takes watch in what order' irrelevant. We had a set order of who would trance first, so at all times you pretty much had one elf fully on watch and the other at least passively aware. Occasionally the shorter-lived members of the party would chip in with a little shift of keeping watch too but pretty much it was our job for better or worse.

At least everyone was getting proper shut-eye?

[MadBear]

It's amazing how many people say "make breakfast for the party." I don't think becoming the party's valet is a good racial feature, even if just a "ribbon." And for those who argue "Oh, just do light downtime activities like polishing your sword or reading your spellbook," I argue this: those activities are already sort of handwaved to be done by human characters in and around the time they're sleeping. Saying that the elf takes 4 hours to do what the rest of the party does as they groggily wake up and search for coffee is kind of insulting.

I'm glad you find one example out of a multitude given to be insulting......

Regardless, it's a ribbon ability, and shouldn't have a big impact on play. I'm sorry you disagree, feel free to house rule it if you want to make it more unique.

[Tanarii]

It's a ribbon ability, but whats important is it's an actual mechanical ability. An Elf is never incapacitated by sleep, as well as being far more likely to be awake in event of being attacked. But even when he isn't, he's still not incapacitated. That makes it more than just fluff or flavor.

[EvilAnagram]

Tell him to take up a craft. Maybe carve a new staff, or imbue his with magic over the course of several days. He can essentially squeeze in hours of downtime activity every day.

[Theodoxus]

Play that coffee sorlock elf thing... never long rest, build up nigh unlimited spell points. Profit!

I'd allow it. No worse than Pun Pun...

[Forum Explorer]

Agree with the others here in that you aren't up to full capacity. But you can spend those extra hours crafting healing potions or something.

[Mjolnirbear]

Where does it say they are not incapacitated by Trance? The only sleep substitute i've seen that permits full awareness of their surroundings is the warforged.

I always saw Trance as a ribbon to explain immunity to Sleep effects. A fluff think, like a gnome's tinker or a dwarf's stone direction sense in previous versions.

It's important to note that long-rest abilities don't rely on sleep. Just on not exerting yourself. Your wizard still needs a long rest to get his spells back. Your fighter needs a long rest to get his hitdice back.

[Arc-Royal]

For those talking about using the other four hours not spent in trance to be on active watch, it was specified that being on watch for longer than two hours essentially interrupts a long rest.

The four-hour trance replaces the effects of eight hours of sleep for non-elves, but sleep/trance is NOT required for a long rest (which may be a bit counterintuitive, but either way, the eight hours of downtime makes for a good opportunity for both).

Eight hours of light activity is always required for a long rest. The question of trance allowing the full benefits of a long rest in four hours was addressed in the September Sage Advice column.

[Vogonjeltz]

Nope. This came up in our last session and we scoured the books, and online resources. The DM eventually ruled a Con check: DC 10, +1 per hour of exertion (we were marching overland) - couple of us failed after the first check, so we ended up sleeping anyway... cuz, you know, f' exhaustion.

Technically that's the rule for forced marches (each hour of travel in a day after 8, found on PHB 181) which seems apropos to the situation.

That being said, PHB 177: "Go without sleep" is listed as a task for which a DM might call for a Constitution check.

[Tanarii]

Where does it say they are not incapacitated by Trance? The only sleep substitute i've seen that permits full awareness of their surroundings is the warforged. the incapacitated status comes from the unconscious status. As does the fact that you cant move or speak, and are unaware of your surroundings.

The Trance ability specifies that you don't sleep, but are istead are semi-conscious. That means you aren't unconcious, and thus are not incapacitated. It also invalidates the can't move or speak and being unaware. Although as a DM I'd certainly say the Trance itself is engaging in a task that prevents moving, speaking, and the use of passive perception. (Similar to a person Map making while traveling for the last.)

It's not a ribbon that prevents sleep effects. Fey Ancestry Does that. Half-elves also get Fey Ancestry, even though they can't Trance.

[Aasimar]

The main benefit is that the Elf can be awake and keep an eye out for danger while his friends sleep.

He can also read, play cards or do a lot of other downtime stuff.

[Slytovhand]

I would say, regardless of what any official attempts to 'balance things out' might suggest, the phrase "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep" (PHB p23) should make it extremely clear... if a human would be considered to have a long rest after 8 hours of sleep, then clearly an elf gets that same benefit in only 4 hours.

If neither choose to sleep it off, then both have to wait around for 8 hours (note: not 7 hrs 57 minutes! :p) Trance and sleep are particular things that help restore the mind and body, which is completely different from just chilling out. (in this world, research has shown that just chilling out is NOT the same as sleeping - and sleep deprivation is much much worse than lack of relaxation).

On a macrocosmic level, I cannot see how the universe would be built around mere mortals need for a set number of unchangeable hours to 'reset' various abilities. These are things that are directly tied to one's mind and body - ie, race (and possibly class).

Similarly, mortal life-spans don't work on universal scales - only on individual. physical (and perhaps, mental) scales.

So, no, not all abilities are based around a human's needs... which is why they can't breathe fire or fly (except by magic), but others can.


Being a person who does, actually, meditate (and trance), I can say that yes - it makes sense for this to be in there. And to get the full benefits of a long rest.

So - go at it elf! (and suffer whatever consequences the DM chooses to throw at you!)

[KiltieMacPipes]

I know that this doesn't add much to the conversation, but, GOD, I hate elves. Elves are the race that anime fanboys would make if they were assigned to make a race for katanas.

Oh, they live longer than everyone else, they are beautiful by default, let's give them a bonus to the super stat, heightened senses, and immunity to easily the most powerful 1st level spell in the game... 'cause AWESOME!!!!!!!

At least back in 3.x you had to take a CON penalty to play the Ninja Nazi Hippies.

Whew... I've been holding that for a over a decade... I feel better. As you were, as you were. Nothing to see here...

[Tanarii]

Elves are the race that anime fanboys would make if they were assigned to make a race for katanas. Thats because the Norse/Germanic legends/sagas where elves originated, along with dwarves and Tolkein's God-like beings, were probably told by the period-equivalent of anime-fanboys. Snorri Sturluson, compiler/writer of the Prose Edda, definitely was one.

[Slytovhand]

I know that this doesn't add much to the conversation, but, GOD, I hate elves. Elves are the race that anime fanboys would make if they were assigned to make a race for katanas.

Oh, they live longer than everyone else, they are beautiful by default, let's give them a bonus to the super stat, heightened senses, and immunity to easily the most powerful 1st level spell in the game... 'cause AWESOME!!!!!!!

At least back in 3.x you had to take a CON penalty to play the Ninja Nazi Hippies.

Whew... I've been holding that for a over a decade... I feel better. As you were, as you were. Nothing to see here...

In D&D's defense, if you didn't have that immunity, it would mean complete party-wipes by a single spell by the DM any time they wanted... just as the party does regularly to any band of low levels they encounter...

[Arc-Royal]

I would say, regardless of what any official attempts to 'balance things out' might suggest, the phrase "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep" (PHB p23) should make it extremely clear... if a human would be considered to have a long rest after 8 hours of sleep, then clearly an elf gets that same benefit in only 4 hours.

If neither choose to sleep it off, then both have to wait around for 8 hours (note: not 7 hrs 57 minutes! :p) Trance and sleep are particular things that help restore the mind and body, which is completely different from just chilling out. (in this world, research has shown that just chilling out is NOT the same as sleeping - and sleep deprivation is much much worse than lack of relaxation).

On a macrocosmic level, I cannot see how the universe would be built around mere mortals need for a set number of unchangeable hours to 'reset' various abilities. These are things that are directly tied to one's mind and body - ie, race (and possibly class).

Similarly, mortal life-spans don't work on universal scales - only on individual. physical (and perhaps, mental) scales.

So, no, not all abilities are based around a human's needs... which is why they can't breathe fire or fly (except by magic), but others can.


Being a person who does, actually, meditate (and trance), I can say that yes - it makes sense for this to be in there. And to get the full benefits of a long rest.

So - go at it elf! (and suffer whatever consequences the DM chooses to throw at you!)
You're welcome to rule as such at your table, but as far as official sources are concerned, this has already been clarified to be NOT how Trance was intended to function. http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015

It's also stated in the article that while allowing them to finish a long-rest in four hours isn't necessarily game-breaking, it IS a significant choice that has potential implications for the fantasy world in which you're playing.

"Chilling out" as you've put it isn't necessarily what goes on during every downtime. During a non-eight-hour-sleep long rest, someone might take a one-hour nap, then lay there relaxing with their eyes closed thinking quiet, contemplative thoughts (not sleep, but certainly physically restful), and so on. Your description of things makes it sound like you imagine it as a miniature frat party, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting the tone of your writing. Furthermore, I don't think anyone here is under the impression that sleep deprivation isn't a real and unhealthy thing, but I think we all understand that the human mind and body can be pushed to limits in times of need that would kill other animals.

[Mad_Saulot]

Sleeping and resting are two different things, sure the elf just needs to trance for 4 hours but this does not constitute a long rest under the rules, if your elf wants to run off by himself you should let him, just dont give him the recovery benefits of a long rest and see how he likes to take on a dozen enemy by himself.

If a player of mine spat his dummy out over this I'd show him the door with my boot.

[MeeposFire]

I would say, regardless of what any official attempts to 'balance things out' might suggest, the phrase "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep" (PHB p23) should make it extremely clear... if a human would be considered to have a long rest after 8 hours of sleep, then clearly an elf gets that same benefit in only 4 hours.

If neither choose to sleep it off, then both have to wait around for 8 hours (note: not 7 hrs 57 minutes! :p) Trance and sleep are particular things that help restore the mind and body, which is completely different from just chilling out. (in this world, research has shown that just chilling out is NOT the same as sleeping - and sleep deprivation is much much worse than lack of relaxation).

On a macrocosmic level, I cannot see how the universe would be built around mere mortals need for a set number of unchangeable hours to 'reset' various abilities. These are things that are directly tied to one's mind and body - ie, race (and possibly class).

Similarly, mortal life-spans don't work on universal scales - only on individual. physical (and perhaps, mental) scales.

So, no, not all abilities are based around a human's needs... which is why they can't breathe fire or fly (except by magic), but others can.


Being a person who does, actually, meditate (and trance), I can say that yes - it makes sense for this to be in there. And to get the full benefits of a long rest.

So - go at it elf! (and suffer whatever consequences the DM chooses to throw at you!)

Except a human does not get a long rest by sleeping. Sleeping is something that you can do during a long rest but it is not what gives you a long rest. The two are not the same. So yes the elf does get the same benefit in 4 hours for sleeping but since a long rest is not a benefit from sleeping then just a trance or sleep is not sufficient to grant a long rest on its own.

[VoxRationis]

Except a human does not get a long rest by sleeping. Sleeping is something that you can do during a long rest but it is not what gives you a long rest. The two are not the same. So yes the elf does get the same benefit in 4 hours for sleeping but since a long rest is not a benefit from sleeping then just a trance or sleep is not sufficient to grant a long rest on its own.

Yes, that is what follows from the rules, except that it's ridiculous as a concept. The idea that sleeping is so completely decoupled from "rest" is awful generally (4 hours' sleep is better than 8 hours awake, twiddling your thumbs), but in particular because that sleeping has no benefit in-game if you decouple the two, and that therefore anything referring to "gaining the benefits of sleep" is completely meaningless. You're arguing for a bizarre concept in order to maintain one aspect of the rules while depriving another aspect of all meaning, all to preserve a game balance that isn't actually in jeopardy (since it's not actually that unbalancing to be able to adventure without your comrades in an adventure designed for a full party).

[MeeposFire]

Yes, that is what follows from the rules, except that it's ridiculous as a concept. The idea that sleeping is so completely decoupled from "rest" is awful generally (4 hours' sleep is better than 8 hours awake, twiddling your thumbs), but in particular because that sleeping has no benefit in-game if you decouple the two, and that therefore anything referring to "gaining the benefits of sleep" is completely meaningless. You're arguing for a bizarre concept in order to maintain one aspect of the rules while depriving another aspect of all meaning, all to preserve a game balance that isn't actually in jeopardy (since it's not actually that unbalancing to be able to adventure without your comrades in an adventure designed for a full party).

Please it is no more ridiculous than HP, evasion, or a bunch of other game concepts. I also do not see you complaining about the fact you can only get 1 long rest every 24 hours regardless of sleep. The fact you find the rule is bizarre is not particularly compelling or relevant to me. The fact that you want to couple two unrelated things mechanically is bizarre enough to me but I doubt that is relevant to you. Further I am not arguing game balance (for the moment) what so ever.

The fact that there is little consequence to lack of sleep is a separate issue. If you want to make sleep relevant you do not need to mess around with the long rest mechanics. Mess around with penalties based around lack of sleep. Applying disadvantage or even a penalty to various aspects of the game would make a lot of sense and would actually make sleeping important without messing with a separate mechanic. In addition that allows you to make it progressively worse as you go longer without sleep.

[VoxRationis]

Please it is no more ridiculous than HP, evasion, or a bunch of other game concepts. I also do not see you complaining about the fact you can only get 1 long rest every 24 hours regardless of sleep. The fact you find the rule is bizarre is not particularly compelling or relevant to me. The fact that you want to couple two unrelated things mechanically is bizarre enough to me but I doubt that is relevant to you. Further I am not arguing game balance (for the moment) what so ever.

The fact that there is little consequence to lack of sleep is a separate issue. If you want to make sleep relevant you do not need to mess around with the long rest mechanics. Mess around with penalties based around lack of sleep. Applying disadvantage or even a penalty to various aspects of the game would make a lot of sense and would actually make sleeping important without messing with a separate mechanic. In addition that allows you to make it progressively worse as you go longer without sleep.

Yes, it's completely bizarre to consider sleep and rest to be related.
As someone with personal and intimate experience with sleep deprivation, I'm going to stand by the idea that 8 hours without strenuous physical activity has little to no recuperative effect without adequate sleep.
While I agree that penalties stemming from lack of sleep would be nice, I'm not sure why you apparently consider homebrewing a whole subsystem for simulating sleep deprivation to be a simpler and less intrusive modification to the rules than simply linking the concepts of "sleep" and "rest."

[Rusvul]

In my games, I would stick with RAW in that a trance does not constitute a long rest, though I might allow Elves to watch for 4 hours instead of two- especially because my players like to adventure in small groups.

I think I would also rule that a non-elf requires 6 hours of sleep to avoid penalties, and that skipping/skimping on sleep inflicts one level of Exhaustion per night without sleep, with a Con save required each night (getting harder sleepless night) to avoid an additional level of Exhaustion. Failing by 5 or more means you nod off even if you didn't mean to.

That way, trance remains largely a ribbon with a few mechanical advantages. It stays useful and doesn't shift the rules too much for Elves.

[DanyBallon]

At our table, we haven't officially ruled rest/sleep duration, but we naturally assumed that a long rest last 8-10 hours and consist of 5-8 hours of sleep for non-elves (4h trance for elves) and some light activity like watch, learning spells, praying to god, looking for food and water, cooking, etc.

[Mad_Saulot]

After reading all the arguments on this thread I have come to the conclusion that Elves should be ruling the world what with all their no sleep huge lifespans and ability to recover from exhaustion in half the time of all other races.

So with that in mind, and since in my world elves arent the dominant species, I'll be removing the elven trance ability and they can sleep normally along with every other humanoid on the planet.

[VoxRationis]

Well, according to the other arguments on this thread, all the elves should be valets, waking up before their masters to make tea and polish belt buckles. I suppose you could go with that route.

[MadBear]

Well, according to the other arguments on this thread, all the elves should be valets, waking up before their masters to make tea and polish belt buckles. I suppose you could go with that route.

Straw man argument is made of straw..... People gave suggestions of what you could do with the extra time, but they were not saying that you must do those things.

In all seriousness though, complaining that a rule doesn't make sense, doesn't make it not the rule.

If your argument is that it's the rule, but it's stupid, welcome to D&D, because that's been true since I started back in 2nd edition. As always, feel free to house rule it if you really want, no one on the forums will care or stop you.

[JackPhoenix]

In D&D's defense, if you didn't have that immunity, it would mean complete party-wipes by a single spell by the DM any time they wanted... just as the party does regularly to any band of low levels they encounter...

I've read that elven immunity to magical sleep (and to ghoul paralysation) is a relic from the days of chainmail, where elven armies had a small number of very strong units, and for the sake of game balance, they were given the immunity to prevent undead and casters from easily destroying most of the army.


Yes, it's completely bizarre to consider sleep and rest to be related.
As someone with personal and intimate experience with sleep deprivation, I'm going to stand by the idea that 8 hours without strenuous physical activity has little to no recuperative effect without adequate sleep.
While I agree that penalties stemming from lack of sleep would be nice, I'm not sure why you apparently consider homebrewing a whole subsystem for simulating sleep deprivation to be a simpler and less intrusive modification to the rules than simply linking the concepts of "sleep" and "rest."

Likely because things like variant rest rules exists. You can have long rests taking a hour for a more action-filled game, or a week for a game with less combat. And you don't have to homebrew anything, exhaustion rules exists, you just slap a level of exhaustion on the characters who don't get enough sleep for 2 or more days.

[Desamir]

Jeremy Crawford has explained the intent of Trance, but the RAW disagrees. Some tables choose to play the game by strict RAW, and that's fine.

RAW is as follows:


Trance states "you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep." (PHB 23)
Sleeping or performing light activity for 8 hours provides the benefit of a long rest, provided that you haven't benefited from one already in the past 24 hours. (PHB 186)
Therefore, because 4 hours of Trance provides the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, and 8 hours of sleep provides the benefit of a long rest, a Trance provides the benefit of a long rest.

[DanyBallon]

Jeremy Crawford has explained the intent of Trance, but the RAW disagrees. Some tables choose to play the game by strict RAW, and that's fine.

RAW is as follows:


Trance states "you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep." (PHB 23)
Sleeping or performing light activity for 8 hours provides the benefit of a long rest, provided that you haven't benefited from one already in the past 24 hours. (PHB 186)
Therefore, because 4 hours of Trance provides the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, and 8 hours of sleep provides the benefit of a long rest, a Trance provides the benefit of a long rest.


RAW in 5e isn't as important as in previous editions. What is more important is RAI and as far as it goes, the intent was that an elf will trance for 4h and then do light activities for the remaining 4h.

But nothing prevent you from doing otherwise. But in no means one can say that elves are OP because of trance, as the design intent was it to be a ribbon ability

[VoxRationis]

I've read that elven immunity to magical sleep (and to ghoul paralysation) is a relic from the days of chainmail, where elven armies had a small number of very strong units, and for the sake of game balance, they were given the immunity to prevent undead and casters from easily destroying most of the army.

That's interesting. I had figured it just came out of the trance thing, which itself is from Tolkien's writing (it mentions Legolas going into such a trance while they were chasing the orcs who had kidnapped the hobbits). Do you know much about Chainmail?

[JackPhoenix]

That's interesting. I had figured it just came out of the trance thing, which itself is from Tolkien's writing (it mentions Legolas going into such a trance while they were chasing the orcs who had kidnapped the hobbits). Do you know much about Chainmail?

Not really, it's a second hand knowledge for me, someone explained it as a reasoning in a thread about why the elves are immune to ghouls.

I've seen it explained as coming from LotR too...after 40 years and with Gygax dead, who can really know how it began?

[Tanarii]

Trance was a new ability introduced in 4e. It was only for Eladrin, who were basically Fey Elves.

Immunity to paralysis came from chainmail.

[DanyBallon]

Trance was a new ability introduced in 4e. It was only for Eladrin, who were basically Fey Elves.

Immunity to paralysis came from chainmail.

JackPhoenix is talking about immunity to sleep, that come from earlier editions (can't say it's from Chainmail, but it's part of 2e)

[Tanarii]

1e they had 90% immunity to charm/sleep. But I don't think it was in B/X. I could be wrong ... I couldn't find any class stats for B/X or BECMI in 2 minutes of googling to verify.

[JackPhoenix]

Trance goes back at least to 3.5, though it's not mentioned in the stat block in SRD, because it was only part of the fluff (last part of the "physical description" paragraph). Can't speak for earlier editions, don't have the books for that, though it was apparently present in 2e under the name "reverie"

After some research, it seems ghoul immunity goes back to Chainmail, sleep immunity or resistance was added in the OD&D.

[Desamir]

RAW in 5e isn't as important as in previous editions. What is more important is RAI and as far as it goes, the intent was that an elf will trance for 4h and then do light activities for the remaining 4h.

But nothing prevent you from doing otherwise. But in no means one can say that elves are OP because of trance, as the design intent was it to be a ribbon ability

I don't disagree, but to be honest, it's a ribbon ability either way. I've played in multiple campaigns with this interpretation of Trance, and it's yet to become an issue. Some concerns I've read in this thread:

It gives you four extra hours of adventuring time--solo. Adventuring solo is a great way to die. Most adventurers know this and aren't dumb enough to take the risk.

It gives you four extra hours of downtime--if two extra hours of downtime is a ribbon ability, then four extra hours of downtime is a slightly better ribbon ability. Seems fine to me.

[Tanarii]

Can't speak for earlier editions, don't have the books for that, though it was apparently present in 2e under the name "reverie"I do believe you're correct. Reverie is ringing some bells. Possibly campaign setting specific? Forgotten Realms Elves definitely had it, but I'm fairly sure Dragonlance and Greyhawk didn't.

[Rusvul]

Jeremy Crawford has explained the intent of Trance, but the RAW disagrees. Some tables choose to play the game by strict RAW, and that's fine.

RAW is as follows:


Trance states "you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep." (PHB 23)
Sleeping or performing light activity for 8 hours provides the benefit of a long rest, provided that you haven't benefited from one already in the past 24 hours. (PHB 186)
Therefore, because 4 hours of Trance provides the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, and 8 hours of sleep provides the benefit of a long rest, a Trance provides the benefit of a long rest.


I think by RAW you are mistaken, a long rest is defined as "a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours." It is not specifically mentioned that sleep is what causes a long rest, rather, sleep and long rests are independent, with the latter often (but not necessarily) involving the former. An Elf who can trance for 4 hours to "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep" is not by RAW exempt from this- They still need their "at least 8 hours" to complete their long rest. This is confirmed RAI here, (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/494594697965207552) and RAW and RAI are both clarified here. ({url})

Oddly enough, since RAW doesn't specify that you must sleep during a long rest, or in fact give any sleeplessness penalties (it only suggests a DM ask for a CON check to avoid them), a Human could just go the whole night without sleep by RAW and not suffer any penalties- Essentially making the Elf's Trance ability mechanically useless if playing by strict RAW. Of course, that's really dumb, and no DM is likely to allow that kind of nonsense.


Really though, RAW and RAI don't really matter for something this minor. Houserule away, nobody is likely to care. :P

[Malifice]

Nope. This came up in our last session and we scoured the books, and online resources. The DM eventually ruled a Con check: DC 10, +1 per hour of exertion (we were marching overland) - couple of us failed after the first check, so we ended up sleeping anyway... cuz, you know, f' exhaustion.

Compound checks? I thought we were past this.

It should be one check at the end of the full activity. Get in your DMs ear with some probability facts.

[Zalabim]

That's actually the rule the book uses to cover that situation though. Forced Marches are a killer. Specifically:

"Forced March: The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion.

For each additional hour of travel beyond 8 hours, the characters cover the distance shown in the Hour column for their pace, and each character must make a Constitution saving throw at the end of the hour. The DC is 10 +1 for each hour past 8 hours. On a failed saving throw, a character suffers one level of exhaustion (see appendix A)."

I guess traveling 8 hours in night would logically cover a different distance, but I do think that's simply an editing error in the first sentence.

[Coidzor]

So what you guys are saying is that elves trance for 4 hours, but still have to sit around for an additional 4 hours to get a long rest?

Humans don't have to sleep for 8 hours to long rest either, you know.


So mechanically, the trance does nothing? (Except perhaps making them slightly more alert than they would be if sleeping)

Allowing someone to more easily stand watch and explain the immunity to sleep spells isn't nothing.

And incentivizing parties full of elves so that they long rest faster and can get closer to the 15 minute adventuring day is generally not a good or desirable thing.


What's the point, then?

Legacy. Biological differences. Immunity to sleep spells. Getting in an extra 4 hours of larceny as a Rogue while in town and not needing to refresh their mojo.


Let's say my party has 2 elves and 4 humans. The 2 elves take their trance in the first 4 consecutive hours, then spend the next 4 hours on watch... However, after being on watch for 2 hours, they are ambushed. Do the elves get the benefits of a long rest?

Depends on how long the combat is, IIRC.


I understand that having the elf go on solo adventures is kind of time consuming and pointless, but I don't get why all elves should be gimped that way.

It's not actually a gimp if they have the same restrictions on a long rest as every other creature.

[Mad_Saulot]

I think by RAW you are mistaken, a long rest is defined as "a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours." It is not specifically mentioned that sleep is what causes a long rest, rather, sleep and long rests are independent, with the latter often (but not necessarily) involving the former. An Elf who can trance for 4 hours to "gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep" is not by RAW exempt from this- They still need their "at least 8 hours" to complete their long rest. This is confirmed RAI here, (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/494594697965207552) and RAW and RAI are both clarified here. ({url})

Oddly enough, since RAW doesn't specify that you must sleep during a long rest, or in fact give any sleeplessness penalties (it only suggests a DM ask for a CON check to avoid them), a Human could just go the whole night without sleep by RAW and not suffer any penalties- Essentially making the Elf's Trance ability mechanically useless if playing by strict RAW. Of course, that's really dumb, and no DM is likely to allow that kind of nonsense.


Really though, RAW and RAI don't really matter for something this minor. Houserule away, nobody is likely to care. :P

Ahh but it isnt a minor matter, if elfs can recover in half the time compared to all other humanoids then their race would have clear tactical and strategic advantage during total wars, therefore they should rule whatever planet where this is true.

[VoxRationis]

Ahh but it isnt a minor matter, if elfs can recover in half the time compared to all other humanoids then their race would have clear tactical and strategic advantage during total wars, therefore they should rule whatever planet where this is true.

Assuming technological and numerical parity with other races (not generally an assumption with elves, who in most works are behind in at least one of those) and that the geopolitical situation is one of total wars wherein troop marching speed is a significant factor (it might not be if vehicular travel, such as sailing, dominates the military situation), and that the healing and rest rules apply equally to troops as they do to PCs (many DMs might say that regular soldiers can't sleep off dismemberment the way a PC can).

[OttoT]

My elf will trance 4 hours after using spells to help others then keep watch and then do some herbalism stuff til 8 hours have passed. Doesn't bother me any at all done 5e is more about role playing amd less about being a crunch obsessed optimized murder hobo