No sweet Home (The Mechane)

[Prinygod]

Before i began i would like to point out that i don't consider the following to be a plot hole, I am not asking for an answer from The Giant, though i would appreciate it if he chooses to take the time. That said does the The Mechane not count as a Home? I ask this because normally in 3.5 vampires cannot enter a home unless they are invited by someone with authority. Does Durkula Have that authority, i would generally consider the OOtS as guests on the ship, or does his invitation apply to his spawns. I think its clear that the crew have The Mechane as their permanent residency, but perhaps it doesn't count as a home?

In case anyone is wondering this is what the rules says on vampires (Rich gets to make the rules i know)

"They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all."

[Ornithologist]

I would imagine 2 scenarios.

1. This doesn't apply in this setting.

2. Durkula invited him, as it is his temporary home as well. (Also, Durkula was never explicitly invited to the Mechane either.)

I'm personally of the opinion that if it happens on screen, then either the required secondary rules have been met (regardless of them being on screen) or they don't matter. They only matter if they are specifically mentioned as having been unmet.

[ORione]

None of the Draketeeth invited Malack into their pyramid. I don't think that's a rule for vampires here.

[ti'esar]

None of the Draketeeth invited Malack into their pyramid. I don't think that's a rule for vampires here.

They were all dead. I'm not sure it counts as a home anymore at that point.

[rodneyAnonymous]

That said does the The Mechane not count as a Home?

No, evidently not.

[Prinygod]

They were all dead. I'm not sure it counts as a home anymore at that point.

Thats true but it does raise the question if Malack knew he could get in. Maybe while he was squashing that pesky sunlight weakness, he knocked out some of the other ones as well, and since Durkula has his staff staff it might be available to him. Heck it could be a part of the protection from day light spell.

[Prinygod]

No, evidently not.

Congratulations you cracked the code. Isn't it wonderful when people answer rhetorical questions, but add nothing else.

[factotum]

Congratulations you cracked the code. Isn't it wonderful when people answer rhetorical questions, but add nothing else.

It's a reasonable comment in this case, though. Rather than assuming the Giant has made a mistake, wouldn't it be easier to just assume that either the Mechane does not count as a home, or he's not using that rule? There are plenty of other situations where he ignores the D&D rules to make a better story.

It's a difficult question to answer in any case. The Mechane no doubt is seen as a home by some or all of the crew, who presumably live aboard. The same doesn't apply to the Order, who are presumably occupying passenger cabins, so it's entirely possible that's enough of a loophole to allow Gontor to enter those.

[Kami2awa]

It's a good point, but Durkon could easily have "invited" Gontor onto the Mechane, as at the time he was living there and the airship had been placed at the Order's disposal. It's presumably not on panel because it would spoil the surprise of whatever plot Gontor is about to put into action.

I notice that Durkon hasn't entered any places without some form of invitation since he got turned:

- The temples he and Roy visited are (likely) public buildings, so he is not restricted.
- He's a passenger on the Mechane, so that could count as an implied invitation.
- Veldrina invited him into her room.
- He's an official candidate at the Godsmoot, so probably has an "invitation" by default.

[Fey]

The Mechane wouldn't count as a home, because the crew doesn't LIVE there. They WORK there. Just like if you join the Navy and you work and sleep on a ship for a few years, you still cant wait to go back home to your family. You don't think of the ship as home, where your heart is. Home is back where you live when you're not on the job, where you go back for the holidays, and where you'll return when your time of service is done.

I'm quite sure Bandana and everyone else view this sky pirate gig as a job, and they have lives they'll go back to someday.

[Prinygod]

I said from the beginning that i'm not trying to point out a mistake that Rich made, So saying that Rich isn't using that rule is redundant. What im trying to discuss is the weird corner case to the normal vampire rules regardless if it actually applies in this situation, with this event acting as a inspiration. How ever it is related to the comic so i think its worth while to talk about here.

I have to disagree with the idea that The Mechane is not a home, even if the crew has a home some where else, its still a second home that they are living in. They have private rooms, at least some do, and they have there personal effects. Whats more that the vampire weakness includes more than just homes, but all private buildings. So i know what the counter point is, that a ship can't be a building, so i looked up a definition for a building.

build·ing (bĭl′dĭng)
n.
1. Something that is built, as for human habitation; a structure.
2. The act, process, art, or occupation of constructing.

Id say that The Mechane is a structure that is built for human habitation, though perhaps not its primary purpose.

[KorvinStarmast]

They were all dead. I'm not sure it counts as a home anymore at that point. Home sweet Tomb.

The Mechane wouldn't count as a home, because the crew doesn't LIVE there. They WORK there. Just like if you join the Navy and you work and sleep on a ship for a few years, you still cant wait to go back home to your family.
As they are on a voyage, it is their home for the duration of the voyage.

You don't think of the ship as home, where your heart is.
Actually, that's a very modern mind set. As recently as the 70's, and of course before, a lot of the junior ratings on a ship lived there and nowhere else, since they could not afford a home somewhere else. I remember those days pretty well. One had to put in a request to live off of the ship in the USN if one were a junior rank, and in some cases junior officers without familires. It hasn't been that way for a while, though.

If you go back to the whaling days, no few of the sailors lived aboard the ship when it was in port. (This left more money for women and whisky ...).

Home is back where you live when you're not on the job, where you go back for the holidays, and where you'll return when your time of service is done. As I said, that PoV is sorta recent.

[jere7my]

I said from the beginning that i'm not trying to point out a mistake that Rich made, So saying that Rich isn't using that rule is redundant. What im trying to discuss is the weird corner case to the normal vampire rules regardless if it actually applies in this situation, with this event acting as a inspiration. How ever it is related to the comic so i think its worth while to talk about here.

I have to disagree with the idea that The Mechane is not a home, even if the crew has a home some where else, its still a second home that they are living in. They have private rooms, at least some do, and they have there personal effects. Whats more that the vampire weakness includes more than just homes, but all private buildings. So i know what the counter point is, that a ship can't be a building, so i looked up a definition for a building.

build·ing (bĭl′dĭng)
n.
1. Something that is built, as for human habitation; a structure.
2. The act, process, art, or occupation of constructing.

Id say that The Mechane is a structure that is built for human habitation, though perhaps not its primary purpose.

If anything, their private cabins would be their homes. Vaarsuvius's cabin is more like a hotel room, which is more open to interpretation.

[Keltest]

As the Mechane has taken on passengers, now and in the past, I personally would say that makes it a public enough place for a vampire to enter.

[Prinygod]

As the Mechane has taken on passengers, now and in the past, I personally would say that makes it a public enough place for a vampire to enter.

Just because an eccentric billionaire lends you his private plane, doesn't make it a public airliner. Like wise lending the plane out again to your friends would be impolite, Just because your are using the plane does not make it your plane. Now i would agree if there is a scene later showing the vampire buying passage on The Mechane (maybe a dominate is involved), he has an invitation, but i am skeptical that Durkula can give him that invitation.

[brian 333]

Durkula was invited. His spawn are invited as well.

Note the prohibition extends only to dwellings. Public places and conveyances which are normally open to all have no such restrictions. The pyramid was a community and all but private quarters would be considered public space. The Mechane itself might be considered a public conveyance for the purposes of this rule.

[factotum]

Just because an eccentric billionaire lends you his private plane, doesn't make it a public airliner.

It doesn't make it a home either. Let's say our eccentric billionaire friend lent you his super-yacht--would you class your luxury cabin aboard it to be your home?

[Pyrous]

It doesn't make it a home either. Let's say our eccentric billionaire friend lent you his super-yacht--would you class your luxury cabin aboard it to be your home?

No, but it still isn't public, so if it counts as a building a vampire can't enter without being invited.

[TCRM]

The Mechane does act as a transport from time to time, making it public accommodations like a hotel or hostel. As such no invitation needed.

Even if this was not the case, Bandana explicitly tells the party that they are welcome to stay aboard, which in all but the most exacting interpretations of the rule should count as an invitation.

Once aboard, the party is given not simply places to bed down, but cabins and accommodations much like those accorded to the crew, making the Mechane a place they can call home.

Then Durkula, by ordering Gontor aboard, extends the invitation to him, and everything is nice and legal.

[Lvl45DM!]

Since the ship at large is a place of work perhaps only the individual rooms of the crew count as dwellings. V's room doesn't since V is a passenger

[Prinygod]

The Mechane does act as a transport from time to time, making it public accommodations like a hotel or hostel. As such no invitation needed.

Even if this was not the case, Bandana explicitly tells the party that they are welcome to stay aboard, which in all but the most exacting interpretations of the rule should count as an invitation.

Once aboard, the party is given not simply places to bed down, but cabins and accommodations much like those accorded to the crew, making the Mechane a place they can call home.

Then Durkula, by ordering Gontor aboard, extends the invitation to him, and everything is nice and legal.

Nice to know. Next time I go to a hotel I'm going to call in a flash mob. And then we will all break into all the rooms grabbing everything that's valuable. Hey its a hotel and I'm a guest, its perfectly legal. Dang I'd hate to live in your world.

I feel that I need to repeat that you have to be invited by some one with authority. A vampire can't just go up to some guy on the street and ask if he can go in that house over there, for some reason they need more due diligence.

[Keltest]

Nice to know. Next time I go to a hotel I'm going to call in a flash mob. And then we will all break into all the rooms grabbing everything that's valuable. Hey its a hotel and I'm a guest, its perfectly legal. Dang I'd hate to live in your world.

I feel that I need to repeat that you have to be invited by some one with authority. A vampire can't just go up to some guy on the street and ask if he can go in that house over there, for some reason they need more due diligence.

Hotels are specifically called out as being places that vampires can enter without invitation as they are implicitly, and very frequently explicitly, open to the public.

[Jasdoif]

Thats true but it does raise the question if Malack knew he could get in.I'm fairly sure the Vector Legion collectively have the authority to enter any location in the territory under their control; if Malack didn't have the authority personally, I doubt it'd be hard to ask the right person.


As for the Mechane, it's not a building; a key feature distinguishing buildings from other constructions is that a building is intended to stay in the same general location, which the Mechane certainly is not.

[Killer Angel]

Even if OotS would follow the rules, said rules say "home or other building".
"or other building" implies that "home" is intended as a building... and the Mechane is not.

[Roland Itiative]

Nice to know. Next time I go to a hotel I'm going to call in a flash mob. And then we will all break into all the rooms grabbing everything that's valuable. Hey its a hotel and I'm a guest, its perfectly legal. Dang I'd hate to live in your world.

I feel that I need to repeat that you have to be invited by some one with authority. A vampire can't just go up to some guy on the street and ask if he can go in that house over there, for some reason they need more due diligence.

You seem to be confusing the arbitrary rules surrounding vampire behaviour with general good manners and respect for others' private space. One thing has nothing to do with the other, they just intersect a little bit.

[Prinygod]

{{scrubbed}}

[Keltest]

{{scrubbed}}

Counterpoint: Gontor got in without an invitation, and until we see evidence that Rich does not use that rule, we operate under D&D 3.5 rules. Ergo, the Mechane is not a private building protected from unwanted vampire entry.

[Porthos]

{{scrubbed}}

The point is that Vampire Fiction is FLEXIBLE on this point. Is an Inn/Hotel/Ship considered have an Open Invitation or not? Some works of Vampire Fiction say yes. Some works say no. Do acknowledged rulers of an area have implicit power to enter or not? Again, some say yes. Some say no. Is temporary lodging considered a home or not? Again, some say yes. And some say, well you get the point.

That you might consider it to potential problem does not mean that all authors would. And invoking Real World definitions of words or legalistic concepts matters not one jot. Why? Again because we are talking about Vampire Fiction, which I have noted, is flexible on this point.

Setting aside Vampire Fiction, when it comes to 3.5 DnD rules (which naturally is drawing upon the centuries old [and often contradictory] traditions) the wording is also flexible enough to allow either interpretation. Thus it becomes DM discretion. :smallsmile:

[EmperorSarda]

Counterpoint: Gontor got in without an invitation, and until we see evidence that Rich does not use that rule, we operate under D&D 3.5 rules. Ergo, the Mechane is not a private building protected from unwanted vampire entry.

The HPoH gave him permission though.

[Keltest]

The HPoH gave him permission though.

The HPoH is a guest himself and therefore cannot grant permission.

[factotum]

The HPoH is a guest himself and therefore cannot grant permission.

But that doesn't work either, because by that logic Durkula would have to ask permission every time he boarded the Mechane, because it's not his home. Either the Mechane is considered to be Durkula's home for this purpose, in which case he can grant permission to Gontor just fine, or it isn't anyone's home, in which case any vampire can go aboard as they wish.

[Keltest]

But that doesn't work either, because by that logic Durkula would have to ask permission every time he boarded the Mechane, because it's not his home. Either the Mechane is considered to be Durkula's home for this purpose, in which case he can grant permission to Gontor just fine, or it isn't anyone's home, in which case any vampire can go aboard as they wish.

For starters, I am in the latter camp, however I do not recall any rule that says vampires must be re-invited every time they step outside for a moment. Likely that is DM discretion as well.

[rodneyAnonymous]

In my experience, when vampires have to be invited to enter a building, they only have to be invited once.