Knight of the Sacred Seal - Paimon

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I'm looking to build a Knight of the Sacred Seal with a Binder choosing Paimon (I always think Pie-mon, the most delicious digimon, when I write his name). I'm having a little trouble choosing the best build. What I have thus far looks like this:

Swordsage 1st/Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian 2nd/Binder 3rd-4th/ Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian 5th/Binder 6th-7th/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 8th-12th/

Feats:

1 – Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Human Bonus Feat: Shadow Blade, Swordsage Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
3 – Weapon Finesse
5 – Wolf Totem Bonus Feat: Improved Trip
6 –
7 - Binder Bonus Feat: Improved Binding
9 –
12 –
15 -
18 -

I'm not sure of the classes I've chosen, or the weapon I've chosen, are the ideal candidates and I've no idea what to do with the open feat spaces.

Any help is appreciated.

[Val666]

Are you starting level 1? If not you can delay th swordsage level to the level you'll shadowblade. Also you get higher level maneuvers. Do you get anything from the 3rd Barbarian level? I don't remember the acf. Take a look to the ferocity variant. It adds dex instead of con or str I don't remember. Then when you can bind higher level vestiges try Otiax. His wind blast ability lets you attack from a distance and some other goodies. And don't forget Zceryll because...Zceryll..

[avr]

At 9th you probably want Martial Style to get a 3rd level shadow hand stance. Assassin's stance gives you 2d6 sneak attack IIRC.

While improved trip is nice to have, a second level of swordsage instead has a lot to recommend it. A second level maneuver, another 1st level stance, and Wis to AC.

[xyianth]

Are there any restrictions on what sources you can use? Do you absolutely want to stick with ToB maneuvers?

I ask because I have a pretty awesome paimon build that uses Eberron material:

race: half-elf
build: incarnate 1/binder 4/dragonmark heir 5/binder +2/knight of the sacred seal 5/binder +3
feats: least dragonmark(mark of storms: gust of wind)[1], favored in house[3], improved binding[5b], mighty dragonmark[6], lesser dragonmark(mark of storms: sleet storm)[6b], greater dragonmark(mark of storms: control winds)[9b], dragonmark visionary(storm touch)[9], weapon focus(touch spells)[12], combat reflexes[15], robilar’s gambit[18]
tactics:

useful soulmelds are: cerulean sandals and lucky dice (use astral vambrances and mantle of flame in early levels until you can use focalor/paimon as primary)
Use storm touch before battle, duration is instantaneous so it remains until discharged and grants you 1 touch attack per CL; your CL without items is 18
wield a rapier to benefit from weapon finesse, but attack using storm touch charges (10d6 electricity damage + fort vs stun DC 15+cha)
paimon is your primary vestige, and dance of death lets you make a storm touch against each enemy you move past
bind haures and zceryll as your other two vestiges so you can gain all their benefits
if you face a large threat or you somehow run out of storm touches (you get 54/day without items), you can also control winds at CL 18 2/day as a standard action (720' tornado lasts 3 hours)



Note: Most of the cool tricks for this build are achieved by level 10. You can easily swap out the last 10 levels with basically any classes you like.

[TIPOT]

Exotic weapon prof requires BAB +1 so you'll need to take it later.

Taking a second level in swordsage at level 8 would net you assassin's stance, which allows you to take craven. A third level maneuver and wis to ac.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Are you starting level 1? If not you can delay th swordsage level to the level you'll shadowblade. Also you get higher level maneuvers. Do you get anything from the 3rd Barbarian level? I don't remember the acf. Take a look to the ferocity variant. It adds dex instead of con or str I don't remember. Then when you can bind higher level vestiges try Otiax. His wind blast ability lets you attack from a distance and some other goodies. And don't forget Zceryll because...Zceryll..

Currently, I'm making it as if I start at level one, cause it hasn't been stated yet. We will either be starting at 1st, 3rd or 4th. I agree. When I know what level we'll be starting at, if possible, I'll push swordsage back.

There's no third level of Barbarian. My notation can be a little difficult to understand though, so that's on me. Only the two levels.


At 9th you probably want Martial Style to get a 3rd level shadow hand stance. Assassin's stance gives you 2d6 sneak attack IIRC.

While improved trip is nice to have, a second level of swordsage instead has a lot to recommend it. A second level maneuver, another 1st level stance, and Wis to AC.

With Wis as a dump stat I'm not sure if I want Wis to AC. Also, I want to still be able to bind 8th level Vestiges at 20th. With Improved Binding, one more level of swordsage would be all I could muster, but that level might be better spent on something else.


Are there any restrictions on what sources you can use? Do you absolutely want to stick with ToB maneuvers?

I ask because I have a pretty awesome paimon build that uses Eberron material:

race: half-elf
build: incarnate 1/binder 4/dragonmark heir 5/binder +2/knight of the sacred seal 5/binder +3
feats: least dragonmark(mark of storms: gust of wind)[1], favored in house[3], improved binding[5b], mighty dragonmark[6], lesser dragonmark(mark of storms: sleet storm)[6b], greater dragonmark(mark of storms: control winds)[9b], dragonmark visionary(storm touch)[9], weapon focus(touch spells)[12], combat reflexes[15], robilar’s gambit[18]
tactics:

useful soulmelds are: cerulean sandals and lucky dice (use astral vambrances and mantle of flame in early levels until you can use focalor/paimon as primary)
Use storm touch before battle, duration is instantaneous so it remains until discharged and grants you 1 touch attack per CL; your CL without items is 18
wield a rapier to benefit from weapon finesse, but attack using storm touch charges (10d6 electricity damage + fort vs stun DC 15+cha)
paimon is your primary vestige, and dance of death lets you make a storm touch against each enemy you move past
bind haures and zceryll as your other two vestiges so you can gain all their benefits
if you face a large threat or you somehow run out of storm touches (you get 54/day without items), you can also control winds at CL 18 2/day as a standard action (720' tornado lasts 3 hours)



Note: Most of the cool tricks for this build are achieved by level 10. You can easily swap out the last 10 levels with basically any classes you like.

The only issue I have with this is that I would like to benefit from as many levels of Binder as possible. In the end-game I would like to be able to bind 8th level Vestiges. I'm also not very familiar with essentia and would need to do a little homework on it.

EDIT: How exactly do you get 54 touches/day? Also, I'm pretty sure instantaneous means that it happens as soon as you cast it, not that you can cast it and hold onto the spell to use it when you want. If it does work that way you'd be looking at having to choose between Dance of Death and Storm Touch.

EDIT 2: From the SRD:


Instantaneous

The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast...


Exotic weapon prof requires BAB +1 so you'll need to take it later.


Oh drat. Back to the drawing board I guess.

[Val666]

You can expend 5 levels out of Binder/KotSS and get 8th level vestiges at 20. You are good with Swordage 1 and barb 2. Also why not use unarme strikes? Your not using str at all and reach is thing of magic or some of your open feats.

EDIT: if retrain is up remember to trade weapon finesse because Paimon grants it for free. If not you may delay having dex to attack until paimon but that's not reliable, I guess.

[xyianth]

The only issue I have with this is that I would like to benefit from as many levels of Binder as possible. In the end-game I would like to be able to bind 8th level Vestiges. I'm also not very familiar with essentia and would need to do a little homework on it.

You can change the build to binder 4/dragonmark heir 5/binder +3/knight of the sacred seal 5/binder +3. This gets you an EBL of 15 (3 vestiges). With improved binding, that lets you bind 8th level vestiges. Though honestly, zceryll and haures outclass anything the 8th level vestiges offer.


EDIT: How exactly do you get 54 touches/day? Also, I'm pretty sure instantaneous means that it happens as soon as you cast it, not that you can cast it and hold onto the spell to use it when you want. If it does work that way you'd be looking at having to choose between Dance of Death and Storm Touch.

Dragonmark Visionary grants you 2/day uses of the spell storm touch. Dragonmark Heir level 5 grants an extra use of your greater dragonmark powers, bringing you up to 3/day uses. The spell is instantaneous, and grants you the ability to make 1 melee touch attack per caster level. Your dragonmark SLAs are at caster level 11(greater dragonmark)+5(dragonmark heir levels)+2(mighty dragonmark) = 18CL. 3 uses x 18 touches = 54 touches/day. The touches are not standard actions but attacks, meaning you can make them in the place of any other attack action you would take. The dance of death ability allows you to make 1 attack against any opponent you move past.

The important bit is that you aren't holding the spell to make the touches, casting the spell instantly gives you the ability to make the touches at any later time. The reason it is listed as a touch spell is that you can make 1 such touch attack as part of casting the spell, but you do not have to. You are holding the charge for the very first touch, but once you make it you gain the ability to make all the rest of them at any later opportunity. Since you can deliver a held touch spell as a touch attack, (attack action, not necessarily a standard action) you can deliver any of the touch attacks as part of dance of death.

If the spell worked as you suggest, it would be allowing you to make 18 touch attacks as a standard action. I'm fairly sure that is not the intent, since I know of no other spell that grants 180d6 electricity damage + 18 saves vs stunned. If you do choose to rule it works that way, well enjoy your instakill any boss ability 3/day I guess.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

You can expend 5 levels out of Binder/KotSS and get 8th level vestiges at 20. You are good with Swordage 1 and barb 2. Also why not use unarme strikes? Your not using str at all and reach is thing of magic or some of your open feats.


Originally I was looking at a build that used Eldritch Claw and Unarmed Strikes. With Eldritch Claw off the table, I reneged on the unarmed strikes, as it wasn't made clear if I'd be able to get Improved Unarmed Strike with an unarmed swordsage, if it would be possible to enchant my unarmed strikes and how it would factor in if I wore armor.


You can change the build to binder 4/dragonmark heir 5/binder +3/knight of the sacred seal 5/binder +3. This gets you an EBL of 15 (3 vestiges). With improved binding, that lets you bind 8th level vestiges. Though honestly, zceryll and haures outclass anything the 8th level vestiges offer.


That could work. Zceryll might not be on the table, but the build works.



The important bit is that you aren't holding the spell to make the touches, casting the spell instantly gives you the ability to make the touches at any later time. The reason it is listed as a touch spell is that you can make 1 such touch attack as part of casting the spell, but you do not have to. You are holding the charge for the very first touch, but once you make it you gain the ability to make all the rest of them at any later opportunity. Since you can deliver a held touch spell as a touch attack, (attack action, not necessarily a standard action) you can deliver any of the touch attacks as part of dance of death.

If the spell worked as you suggest, it would be allowing you to make 18 touch attacks as a standard action. I'm fairly sure that is not the intent, since I know of no other spell that grants 180d6 electricity damage + 18 saves vs stunned. If you do choose to rule it works that way, well enjoy your instakill any boss ability 3/day I guess.

I've never seen a spell that worked like that, though (ie: chill touch, shocking grasp, etc.), so I'm having a hard time buying it. If I'm not confident on the legality of the build, I can't likely argue the point with a DM. That aside, it is a nice build.

I also can't really confirm how the spell works, nor can I look at how the feats works, as I'm missing both Dragonmarked and Magic of Ebberon in my collection.

Can we get a third-party to help with a ruling on this?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Taking the advice posted and some information concerning the pre-reqs for the weapon proficiency feat, I've tweak the build a bit. It now looks as follows.

Whirling Frenzy Wolf Totem Barbarian 1st- 2nd/Binder 3rd-4th/ Swordsage 5th/Binder 6th-7th/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 8th-12th/

Feats

1 – Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Weapon Finesse
2 – Wolf Totem Bonus Feat: Improved Trip
3 – Martial Study: Burning Blade
5 – Swordsage Bonus feat: Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain
6 – Shadow Blade
7 - Binder Bonus Feat: Improved Binding

[Lhurgyof]

Originally I was looking at a build that used Eldritch Claw and Unarmed Strikes. With Eldritch Claw off the table, I reneged on the unarmed strikes, as it wasn't made clear if I'd be able to get Improved Unarmed Strike with an unarmed swordsage, if it would be possible to enchant my unarmed strikes and how it would factor in if I wore armor.



That could work. Zceryll might not be on the table, but the build works.



I've never seen a spell that worked like that, though (ie: chill touch, shocking grasp, etc.), so I'm having a hard time buying it. If I'm not confident on the legality of the build, I can't likely argue the point with a DM. That aside, it is a nice build.

I also can't really confirm how the spell works, nor can I look at how the feats works, as I'm missing both Dragonmarked and Magic of Ebberon in my collection.

Can we get a third-party to help with a ruling on this?

I can back up this ruling. The text reads "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."

[Inevitability]

I'm looking to build a Knight of the Sacred Seal with a Binder choosing Paimon (I always think Pei-mon, the most delicious digimon, when I write his name).

Don't you mean Pie-mon?

...

...

I'll let myself out...

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Don't you mean Pie-mon?

...

...

I'll let myself out...

That is precisely what I meant. Late night spelling is not what it used to be. It's been corrected.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I can back up this ruling. The text reads "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level."

By this do you mean it works in a similar sense aschill touch or that you cast the spell and then, for the remainder of the day (or however long it takes), you have a given number of touch attacks to use until you've effectively used them up?

[xyianth]

By this do you mean it works in a similar sense aschill touch or that you cast the spell and then, for the remainder of the day (or however long it takes), you have a given number of touch attacks to use until you've effectively used them up?

Now I'm confused, chill touch is used the same way. You cast it, hold the charge or touch a creature, then have additional touch attacks based on your caster level that you can use until you use them up.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Now I'm confused, chill touch is used the same way. You cast it, hold the charge or touch a creature, then have additional touch attacks based on your caster level that you can use until you use them up.

In every campaign, with every group I've played in the ruling has always been that you have to use the touch attacks immediately (ie: they all come out at the time of casting). I'd love proof that I'm wrong, cause it's much more useful the way you're describing it.

[xyianth]

All I can do is quote the SRD regarding touch spells/attacks. I've added emphasis on the relevant bits.


Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

I see nothing that stipulates that touch spells must be used up in one round. Spells like chill touch, storm touch, scalding touch, etc... all have a line of text that reads "You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level." Each of these spells are duration: instantaneous, which means they activate immediately, last until they are used up, and can't be dispelled.

I suggest you search for chill touch mechanics for other sources of information on this topic. It has been discussed many times before, and having opinions presented from someone other than me may help. I've personally had the complete opposite experience from you, chill touch has always been a cast once, have multiple touch attacks available as attack actions for me in every campaign.

If touch spells are handled differently in your gaming circles, I would be happy to help you build a binder based character that does not rely on them. I honestly did not intend to open a can of worms with my previous build suggestion. For example, a great binder combo is Otiax + Paimon + Haures. Otiax gives the 10' range touch attacks, Paimon gives the dance of death and dex focus, and Haures gives you mind blank, major image that doesn't require concentration, and incorporeal movement.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

All I can do is quote the SRD regarding touch spells/attacks. I've added emphasis on the relevant bits.


If touch spells are handled differently in your gaming circles, I would be happy to help you build a binder based character that does not rely on them. I honestly did not intend to open a can of worms with my previous build suggestion.


Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely.

I'd never seen that bit from the SRD before. I like the build you suggested. I may now work on tweaking my Spiked Chain binder build. Mostly I'm glad that you've shown me how touch spells can be used. It's true they are often used in a certain way in the groups I've played with, but new information could change that and it would make some characters I already have in play much more versatile. Thanks for that.

I have to admit, I like the idea. The issue I've run into now is that I seem married to the concept of using Spiked Chains. Truth be told, there's no reason to keep them if I move away from a tripper build but I like the aesthetic. How would you go about combining the two?

[xyianth]

Combining touch spells with spiked chain usage is not easily done. The only thing I can think of that would do so is the ability to channel spells through weapon attacks. (like duskblade's acane channeling or ordained champion's channel spell) Unfortunately, including those options with the traditional trip-focused feats/classes will prevent you from using vestiges effeciently. As a result, you have to choose between efficient vestige use and touch spell use.

Here is my quick attempt at a spiked chain tripper build that retains high level vestige binding:

race: human
build: crusader 1/lion spiritual totem wolf totem whirling frenzy barbarian 2/binder 4/crusader +1/sneak-attack drow fighter 1/binder +3/knight of the sacred seal 5/binder +3
feats: ewp(spiked chain)[1], weapon finesse[h], knock-down[3], combat reflexes[6], stand still[9], weapon focus(spiked chain)[12], staggering strike[15], ignore special requirements[18]
important maneuvers: thicket of blades stance
patron vestige: paimon

The main tactic here is to maximize dexterity, combine the free trip attempt from knock-down with the free attack from improved trip, add in the staggered condition from sneak attack, and create a highly mobile lockdown tank. The ACFs for the barbarian trade different features so you can combine them to gain pounce, improved trip, and whirling frenzy. The ACFs for fighter trade the bonus feat for sneak attack and the ability to use heavy armor/shields for dex to damage on sneak attacks. Enemies that are hit by you get hit, tripped, staggered, and hit again. This leaves them prone and only able to move (stand up) or use their standard action while remaining prone (attack penalties).

You could try combining duskblade and anima mage for touch spell use, but arcane channeling is not compatible with paimon's dance of death ability and the anima mage's 1/2 BAB will hurt your effectiveness in combat. The divine path (ordained champion) is a little more compatible, but only because you cast the spell into your weapon beforehand. You would still be unable to use the combination as a main combat tactic. (It is more of a pre-combat buff to your first hit)

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I totally forgot the Lion Totem ACF. You're right that combining the two is quite difficult. An easier way of ding things might simply just be getting a magical item to cast the spell for you. A once or twice a day item wouldn't be very expensive either.