Alternate form into a specific individual

[Crake]

So I was looking over the alternate form rules earlier today, and I noticed that it kept referring to the "new form" without specifying anything else beyond that. It says at the start that creatures with the ability usually can change into a few specific forms, but take for example, some dragons have the option to change into "any humanoid". Does this mean that, if they choose to take the form of a specific humanoid with the intention of imitating them, that they would also gain the physical abilities of that form (both good and bad)? After all, the form that the dragon is taking is that of a humanoid with say, 18 strength or whatever.

I know that back in the day when wild shape inherited the rules of polymorph, this was impossible due to the wording of that line of spells, but now that it no longer inherits that language, is this now a possibility?

[BowStreetRunner]

The only help you get when trying to appear like a specific individual is a +10 on the disguise check.

[Crake]

The only help you get when trying to appear like a specific individual is a +10 on the disguise check.

Can you point me to the rules that state you only gain the abilities of the average member of the race? Because if your "new form" is that of an 18 strength human, the rules seem to imply that you should have 18 strength. I'm looking for an actual rules quote from somewhere to back up that statement.

[BowStreetRunner]

Can you point me to the rules that state you only gain the abilities of the average member of the race? Because if your "new form" is that of an 18 strength human, the rules seem to imply that you should have 18 strength. I'm looking for an actual rules quote from somewhere to back up that statement.

I think in this case the onus is on you to point to the rules that state you can copy a specific individual's strength.

The Alternate Form ability seems to be consistent with spell abilities within the polymorph subschool (which does explicitly state that "Unless otherwise noted in the spell’s description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own..."). Even Change Shape only copies the appearance of a specific creature. Being able to grab the actual stats of someone who had really great ability rolls would be a much higher level power and increase the CR of creatures with the ability significantly. Else why not make such a creature with all physical abilities as dump stats and really high mental abilities, then Alternate Form to copy someone who had all mental abilities as dump stats and really high physical stats?

I don't see where the rules seem to imply that you should be able to do something that is neither consistent with other equivalent abilities throughout the game nor is it explicitly stated. I think you just want it to say that so that is how you are reading it. Now if you were DM in one game and player in another game simultaneously and in one of the games you are trying to use it to your advantage and in the other game everyone else is trying to use it against you how would you feel about it then? Take a step back and ask yourself objectively whether this is an interpretation that makes sense in the overall context of game balance, or just a potential exploit of which you are eager to take advantage.

Then do whatever the heck you want. If you and the others in your game can all agree with it working a certain way, there is no reason you can't play it that way.

[Crake]

I think in this case the onus is on you to point to the rules that state you can copy a specific individual's strength.

The bit that leads me to believe this to be the case is that you can take the form of a specific individual, and when you do, that form is your "new form", which the alternate form rules then go to say "The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form." Nowhere does it say that you gain the statistics of the average form of the creature's species.

As for balance, well, for strong monsters like dragons, this is really a step down from something like a continuous item (or persisted spell) of the strength of the true form spell. And most monsters don't exactly get the option to have "dump stats" anyway.

The only character I could imagine that would gain advantage from this is the druid, but they dump their physical stats anyway. There was a thread recently about being able to wildshape into advanced creatures, and the question becomes at that point, if you can wildshape into advanced creatures, who will have higher than normal ability arrays, due to the +1 point per 4 HD, and increased abilities from size increases, why not the same for the normal alternate form ability, and other outliers of the base creatures. After all, nothing in alternate form says you gain the statistics for the average creature, it only ever refers to, specifically, your "new form". If your new form is that of an 18 strength human barbarbian (if say, your alternate form ability says "any Humanoid")... well, it would follow that you gain the physical ability scores of that form, meaning 18 strength. That does seem, to me, to be the rule that states you can, unless there's something else I'm missing?

[Kol Korran]

One of the Eberron splat books, has a sidea bar for new feats for dragons, in their alternate form, which give them the ability toretain some of their physical dragon abilities while in humanoid form. This enforced the concept that you only get the stats of truth the "normal" member of the race.

[Crake]

One of the Eberron splat books, has a sidea bar for new feats for dragons, in their alternate form, which give them the ability toretain some of their physical dragon abilities while in humanoid form. This enforced the concept that you only get the stats of truth the "normal" member of the race.

Yeah, I'm aware of the feat, the problem there though is that a feat assuming rules exist doesn't mean they actually do. I'm not sure about the publishing dates, but it's also possible that the book was being authored before the big polymorph errata which changed alternate form away from being based on polymorph, which was previously what kept it from gaining anything other than the stats of the average version of the creature.