Do you give equipment to dragons?

[darni]

I'm preparing (as a GM) an encounter with a white dragon, and when preparing the treasure I couldn't help but notice that the dragon could have some items to wear in the encounters. However, in all the adventures I've played or read, dragons normally go into battle naked and just with their standard stats/abilities.

Do you as a GM give useful equipment to dragon enemies? I can't avoid to think that in a several hundred years of hoarding, the white dragon probably found some trinket to protect it from the fire it fears so much.... but I don't want my players to feel cheated, or breaking some rule I don't know (perhaps dragon don't have item slots?)

I'd appreciate any light shed on this issue, thanks!

[Necroticplague]

Dragons do have item slots, though not as many as humanoids (I believe they would fall under clawed quadrupeds, like cats do.). I always put the 'going into battle naked' down to a psychological thing, like vanity or pride or a preference to hoarding. They may have something that protects them from a weakness, but their own certainty in their personal might would make them avoid using such except under desperate circumstances. At least, that's what I always assumed. A wiser or more paranoid dragon might keep items on their person and use them.

[Geddy2112]

Well, dragons are proficient with simple weapons only, unless they are capable of a human form in which case they are proficient with weapons listed. No armor proficiency either. They also have triple treasure, and some of that might be usable.

The thing is, dragons are pretty unique- a headband of X mental stat for a dragon is probably only going to fit a dragon or similar creature. While it is not unreasonable that an old or wise dragon may have one, it might not use it for various reasons. They do have slots, and there is the precedent for wondrous items like horseshoes etc made specifically for creatures.

Normally I don't give my dragon's equipment, but they might have treasure they can use in a pinch. I do always give them minions, and you better believe that those minions will have equipment-a mix of their own things, dead adventurers, and gifts from the dragon's horde.

[ahenobarbi]

The thing is, dragons are pretty unique- a headband of X mental stat for a dragon is probably only going to fit a dragon or similar creature.
Most magic wearables resize to fit user, so that's not an issue. However dragons are strong for their CR, even without equipment. Using their money to equip them will make them too strong for many partie.

[Slithery D]

Most magic wearables resize to fit user, so that's not an issue. However dragons are strong for their CR, even without equipment. Using their money to equip them will make them too strong for many partie.

It's not an issue for small/medium humanoids. But:


Size and Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with race-specific items.

Armor and Weapon Sizes: Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being small (01–30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31–90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91–100).

It's definitely up to your GM.

[Nibbens]

Depends on the party I'm DMing for. A Dragon's CR might be around their level, but if your PC are all optimizers, capable of killing the dragon in one turn due to the Damage output per turn, then all the items in the world aren't going to help. Instead, there needs to be multiple enemies to even out the action economy.

However, to answer the point - I'd count a dragons CR as +1 when calculating if they used a couple of items from their horde. +0 if they only use one to none.

On terms of ecology, if a dragon were to use an item, it should be a force multiplier. An amulet that stops a white dragon from taking any fire damage might be something that a dragon would think use, regardless of his predisposed nature to rely on his brute strength. I'd make a game out of it during combat. for example: as soon as the party sorcerer fires a scorching ray and quickened scorching ray during his turn, give an description of the spells dissipating in the air just before him - and the amulet glowing red as the fire dies. Now, all of a sudden, your party rogue is attempting to climb the dragon's neck to steal it, or the party fighter is re-reading his sunder rules, or the wizard is looking to see if he prepared AMF today. There's no reason why a fight with a dragon has to be just another boring dragon.

[Aegis013]

I always have them use a minimum of half their hoard as useful items which they wear into combat. They're highly intelligent. They know they're powerful and long-lived, but they also know there are real threats to their well-being out there. E.g. bigger dragons wanting to expand into their territory. Their arrogance about their superiority to typical PC races doesn't change the other dangers, and by the time they're the biggest baddest dragons around, they have mental stats to be wise enough to maintain their defenses and the habit of wearing their items already ingrained.

[Red Fel]

My armour is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!

If that is how you view yourself, why exactly would you feel the need to wield anything? You know, except maybe a breastplate.

[Quertus]

Yes, because I am a jerk like that ;)

Actually, I'm a much bigger jerk than that. I'll give the Dragon non-associated class levels, then ask, " if this were a PC build, what level would it be?" I'll give it appropriate gear based on the PC wealth by level table. And I'll ask if, as a PC, it would have access to epic feats. Because it's really not fair that the PC's and NPCs aren't playing the same game.

[Red Fel]

Actually, I'm a much bigger jerk than that. I'll give the Dragon non-associated class levels, then ask, " if this were a PC build, what level would it be?" I'll give it appropriate gear based on the PC wealth by level table. And I'll ask if, as a PC, it would have access to epic feats. Because it's really not fair that the PC's and NPCs aren't playing the same game.

You're a monster.

We'll be such good friends.

[Draconium]

If that is how you view yourself, why exactly would you feel the need to wield anything? You know, except maybe a breastplate.

:smalltongue: Exactly, you're basically a living weapon yourself at that point. A finely-tuned one, at that. The only reason you would feel the need to wield anything to to cover whatever weaknesses you may possess, even if you never would admit it.

Unless it's just practical, like a Ring of Three Wishes or something.

[Red Fel]

Unless it's just practical, like a Ring of Three Wishes or something.

Even the wealthiest moguls purchase insurance.

[FocusWolf413]

I wouldn't give a dragon anything like armor, but a ring of fire resistance, amulet of natural attacks, anklets of 10' teleport, or wand bracers are all reasonable things for a dragon to wear.

[elonin]

I'm in favor of dragons using every advantage they have. It's not as though they should be the stupid things filling the skies of skyrim. I'm also not much for cr tables as though somehow the nasties only get more powerful as the pc's level.

[Cirrylius]

Well, in Council of Wyrms a dragon's ability to progress age categories required a hoard of a specific size, and any hoard stolen or destroyed could eventually kill you. I imagine dragons could go commando to protect any hoard pieces that might be usable, and have to commission any pieces from non-predesignated monies.

[Florian]

Well, I mostly gm for low- to mid-OP groups, so outfitting a dragon even further borders on overkill.
In the rare instances I would gm for higher OP groups, I'd outfit and optimize the heck out of a Dragon, just to preserve its CR.

[BWR]

It depends. If I spend a lot of time preparing the dragon encounter, chances are they will have some gear - potions, scrolls and wands if nothing else. Some will have ability score boosters or protection rings etc.
If I just grab a dragon out of the Bestiary for a random encounter or a lesser scripted encounter from a converted adventure I may just leave them unequipped.

[Andezzar]

I'm in favor of dragons using every advantage they have. It's not as though they should be the stupid things filling the skies of skyrim. I'm also not much for cr tables as though somehow the nasties only get more powerful as the pc's level.Exactly. What Emperor Tippy said about high level wizards also applies to old dragons:
By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies.

[nedz]

Yes of course. Dragons are intelligent and it would be stupid of them not to.

Some Dragons can assume human form so these might wear armour even — though ASF might be an issue.

What better way to protect your treasure than wearing it ?

[ExLibrisMortis]

What better way to protect your treasure than wearing it ?
This. Items that are not on your person, do not benefit from your saving throws and SR.

Dragons are too easy to kill with shivering touch (or its PF equivalent, or touch attacks in general), so if your party uses lots of touch attacks, touch AC buffs are pretty much required.

[Killer Angel]

Most magic wearables resize to fit user, so that's not an issue. However dragons are strong for their CR, even without equipment. Using their money to equip them will make them too strong for many partie.

It really depends from a lot of things. For example, the optimiziation level of the party, or the effective CR of the dragon.

It would be fun, if the party collects infos about a relatively young dragon, and when they face the beast, they discover it may be not old, but has magical equipment.

[Andreaz]

Dragons live longer than most creatures. Their majesty only increases with time.

Each second of their lives is overcome by the next.
A dragon that gets to adulthood and went through a few close calls has one thing they value more than their treasure: their very lives.

[dspeyer]

The draconic need to hoard might limit their equipment a little.

I can see dragons as highly reluctant to purchase anything, as it means letting go of their precious gold. They can still steal or extort, but that limits their access to unusual items.

I can also see them as unwilling to use limited items like wands or potions, because once they do so they don't have the item anymore. The hoard has shrunk!

This still allows common armors, stat-boosters, and rings or amulets of continual or per-day buff spells.

[Strigon]

The draconic need to hoard might limit their equipment a little.

I can see dragons as highly reluctant to purchase anything, as it means letting go of their precious gold. They can still steal or extort, but that limits their access to unusual items.

I can also see them as unwilling to use limited items like wands or potions, because once they do so they don't have the item anymore. The hoard has shrunk!

This still allows common armors, stat-boosters, and rings or amulets of continual or per-day buff spells.

You seem to think dragons only care about how many GP are in a pile in its lair.
A dragon values treasure, and as every good dragon knows well:
http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/07/Jack-Sparrow-tells-Will-Turner-not-all-treasure-is-silver-and-gold.gif

[dspeyer]

You seem to think dragons only care about how many GP are in a pile in its lair.
A dragon values treasure, and as every good dragon knows well:


No, I'm just suggesting a dragon would be unwilling to part with treasure even to acquire more useful treasure.

It's not sane, but hoarding gold isn't.

[P.F.]

No, I'm just suggesting a dragon would be unwilling to part with treasure even to acquire more useful treasure.

It's not sane, but hoarding gold isn't.

So true. The dragons aren't trying to get rich. They're hoarding treasure, particularly gold.

Some people hoard cats. Different cats might catch more mice, or look cuter on internet photographs. Sure, you could give them another cat, but imagine trying to convince a cat hoarder to trade one of their cats for a "better" one. It isn't going to happen!

[Beheld]

I roll the appropriate treasure for most monsters, sometimes I give them custom items instead, as per that section of the DMG. Then I have then use anything they can use. So Dragons get triple standard treasure per their CR, and use whatever they get. That is what I do with every intelligent monster that has any reason to have items at all.

[ManicOppressive]

You seem to think dragons only care about how many GP are in a pile in its lair.
A dragon values treasure, and as every good dragon knows well:
http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2015/07/Jack-Sparrow-tells-Will-Turner-not-all-treasure-is-silver-and-gold.gif

Yeah, some of it is gemstones.

[Hal0Badger]

If that is how you view yourself, why exactly would you feel the need to wield anything? You know, except maybe a breastplate.

It has been sometime I read Hobbit, though I am pretty sure Smaug had some sort of protection to cover his soft belly.
Though it had 1 small open area, hence the black arrow shot him down from that point.

For the topic:

It is logical for a dragon to wear useful items from his hoard, but I highly doubt they would go buy things with their "hoard". Most of the time, I would roll for a pre-generated hoard, and use the items from there for dragon, but there are also some occasions I spesifically give my dragon some items as well, things like ring of Energy resistance, rods, some scrolls etc. But I highly doubt that a dragon would find an armor for himself, unless some worshipers or alike built a free armor for him.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm preparing (as a GM) an encounter with a white dragon, and when preparing the treasure I couldn't help but notice that the dragon could have some items to wear in the encounters. However, in all the adventures I've played or read, dragons normally go into battle naked and just with their standard stats/abilities.

Do you as a GM give useful equipment to dragon enemies? I can't avoid to think that in a several hundred years of hoarding, the white dragon probably found some trinket to protect it from the fire it fears so much.... but I don't want my players to feel cheated, or breaking some rule I don't know (perhaps dragon don't have item slots?)

I'd appreciate any light shed on this issue, thanks!

I use the "Lists of Necessary Magic Items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)" by Ernir for my dragons. Just go down the list and find the things the dragon doesn't natively get. Then for the rest look up Bunko's bargain basement and Shax's haversack. A low level dragon will likely have a Drow Insignia of Heart of Water, another of Heart of Earth, Talisman of Undying Fortune, and a Third Eye Clarity. At high level they would abuse the MIC rules to stick a bunch of slotless effects on an Ioun Stone or two.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, some of it is gemstones.

This is actually a fair point. Not all of a Dragon's hoard is usable equipment, is the thing. I seem to recall reading somewhere a description of different types of loot with which dragons prefer to surround themselves - this one likes sculpture or tapestries, that one likes books, this one likes sparkling jewels, that one likes desiccated corpses. These don't always lend themselves to combat utility.

And as has been mentioned, I don't see a Dragon taking some of his precious acquisitions and going out shopping. Maybe if he found an item off of the latest batch of freshly-dead adventurers that happened to be useful to him, sure. (Honestly, who brings a Ring of Ice Resistance to fight a Red Dragon, anyway?) But I don't see them going out to custom-tailor their magical item needs.

[Beheld]

This is actually a fair point. Not all of a Dragon's hoard is usable equipment, is the thing. I seem to recall reading somewhere a description of different types of loot with which dragons prefer to surround themselves - this one likes sculpture or tapestries, that one likes books, this one likes sparkling jewels, that one likes desiccated corpses. These don't always lend themselves to combat utility.

And as has been mentioned, I don't see a Dragon taking some of his precious acquisitions and going out shopping. Maybe if he found an item off of the latest batch of freshly-dead adventurers that happened to be useful to him, sure. (Honestly, who brings a Ring of Ice Resistance to fight a Red Dragon, anyway?) But I don't see them going out to custom-tailor their magical item needs.

A standard treasure (or triple standard treasure) is divided into coins, goods, and items.

[darni]

Thanks for everyone who answered.

I'll go fir this idea that many here have supported: This is an old white dragon; it is quite antisocial and can not take human form so it hasn't done any shopping and all its hoard has been stolen or looted from kills. So I'm rolling the treasure randomly, and it will use anything that is useful to him in that random hoard.

[nedz]

I propose that there are three OP levels for Dragons.

Low OP: No equipment, everything just left in the horde
Mid OP: Wears equipment, if suitable, from randomly generated horde
High OP: Has spent some of their horde on custom kit

[ericgrau]

If that is how you view yourself, why exactly would you feel the need to wield anything? You know, except maybe a breastplate.

LotR is a low magic item setting. A dragon wouldn't want any mundane gear, but some magic trinkets might be nice.

[Strigon]

And as has been mentioned, I don't see a Dragon taking some of his precious acquisitions and going out shopping. Maybe if he found an item off of the latest batch of freshly-dead adventurers that happened to be useful to him, sure. (Honestly, who brings a Ring of Ice Resistance to fight a Red Dragon, anyway?) But I don't see them going out to custom-tailor their magical item needs.

Why not?
Dragons are greedy. They're also clever enough to be paranoid. They can even take humanoid form, so there's nothing stopping them from going out and getting any magic items they want. After all, what kind of dragon wouldn't gladly part with a small amount of its heaping pile of coins to trade for an even prettier bauble that they can carry with them and also allows them to get more treasure?
Maybe they wouldn't saunter into town, but they could certainly go to a black market dealer, or directly to the source to make their order. Heck, many of them might even be able to make their own magic items!

[the_david]

One of the dragons in a Pathfinder adventurepath used 2 rings with a combined worth of 79,000 gp. Being a CR 17 dragon, his total hoard should be 144,000 gp. According to his tactics paragraph he doesn't use the Wand of Lightning Bolt or his Rod of Extend Metamagic. (Both mentioned in the treasure paragraph, unlike the rings that were mentioned as gear. It isn't mentioned whether the rod is lesser, normal or greater. The dragon can only cast spells up to level 5 though.)

So he uses 55% of his what his hoard should be.

Another dragon uses an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 which would be 13% of his hoard.
Two dragons were ripped from the pages of the Bestiary. They don't have any gear.

All 4 of them are found in the same adventurepath. It seems that dragons are at the very least not intended to use their hoard as gear, and at most will use a part of their hoard.

[P.F.]

Why not?
Dragons are greedy. They're also clever enough to be paranoid. They can even take humanoid form, so there's nothing stopping them from going out and getting any magic items they want. After all, what kind of dragon wouldn't gladly part with a small amount of its heaping pile of coins to trade for an even prettier bauble that they can carry with them and also allows them to get more treasure?
Maybe they wouldn't saunter into town, but they could certainly go to a black market dealer, or directly to the source to make their order. Heck, many of them might even be able to make their own magic items!

Hoarding is pathological. A rational person would gladly part with some of their money to buy something they want, but a hoarder is not rational. Hoarding implies an extreme sentimental attachment to the collection. For a human, this may represent a symbolic connection between old newspapers and a deceased relative, or a deep emotional attachment to various pets. If dragons are compulsive hoarders (and they certainly seem to be), then, like addicts and kleptomaniacs, they will be unable to make rational choices, even in their own best interests, if it requires defying the needs to which they are bound.

I imagine a dragon deciding to purchase some sort of magical gear, but then thinking, "Aww, that was the gold I got from razing the village of Creekside," and, "But those were the garnets I raided from that snotty little copper dragon," going through his entire hoard and discovering that he cannot bear to trade away any part of it. Every single piece of treasure is special and sentimental to him.

However, there is no reason that a dragon couldn't increase his or her hoard through an exchange of services or information, or through intimidation and extortion. And if a dragon is able to make her own magic items, I'd imagine she would make whatever items would be most useful to her.

[RolkFlameraven]

Back in 3.5 the Draconomicon had magic items for dragons. Things that ranged from mettle teeth that upped the size of a dragons bite to magic traps for their lairs IIRC.

So it really is going to depend on the dragon. Smarter ones might used anything and everything, vain ones might think that they are more then powerful enough to do what ever it is they need to do.

The metallics might have more eq then chromatics just because many can turn human and go shopping innately, chromatics have to use magic to shape shift and baring items they have to get up there in age before that becomes an option; (and even then would they chose polymorph when they are a dragon?)

There is even the option of a dragon taking item creation feats and just building what they want, they are spell casters even if they don't take class levels.

In then end it really depends on just how memorable you are planing on this dragon being. I recall a dragon in one of the Realm's books that had leaned how to use its wing claws to hold and use wands and my group ran into another who's whole hoard was nothing but runes craved into its shed scales as one MASSIVE spell book.

[Cirrylius]

(Honestly, who brings a Ring of Ice Resistance to fight a Red Dragon, anyway?)

Somebody who thinks like an old, paranoid monster? Then again, a really paranoid old monster probably wouldn't use the polar opposite of their vulnerability, either.

[Strigon]

Hoarding is pathological. A rational person would gladly part with some of their money to buy something they want, but a hoarder is not rational. Hoarding implies an extreme sentimental attachment to the collection. For a human, this may represent a symbolic connection between old newspapers and a deceased relative, or a deep emotional attachment to various pets. If dragons are compulsive hoarders (and they certainly seem to be), then, like addicts and kleptomaniacs, they will be unable to make rational choices, even in their own best interests, if it requires defying the needs to which they are bound.

After a bit of research, I found nothing in any rulebooks suggesting this type of hoarding is what the writers meant; only references on dragons being exceptionally greedy.

I did, however, find a number of passages in the draconomicon that suggest they'd be more than willing to get magic items if the chance arose.
From the section on dragon psychology:

“A good answer today is better than the perfect answer tomorrow.”
—Human aphorism
“What’s your hurry?”
—Common dragon response
to the aforementioned aphorism
The most important element shaping a dragon’s outlook and
state of mind is time. Dragons have no desire to live for the
moment; they have a vast supply of moments stretching out
before them. They do not worry about wasted time. If dragons
have anything in excess, it is time, and they do not concern
themselves with haste.

While this isn't directly related - that's coming later - it does point out something very important. A dragon doesn't care about time. If a dragon can buy something to supplement his combat abilities, it'll eventually pay for itself many times over. And even if it takes over a decade to do so, what's that to a creature who will live centuries, or even millennia? Sure, maybe a younger one might not take that trade, but an older, wiser one has no reason not to.

Now, from the section on the dragon's hoard:

MAGIC ITEMS
It can be tempting to fill a dragon’s hoard with an assortment
of magic items usable by the dragon itself, such as
rings, bracers, potions, and rods. Unless the dragon has
ready access to a nearby city in which to purchase such
items, however, it probably shouldn’t be equipped as well as
a typical NPC fighter or wizard. And while any intelligent
dragon (one with an Intelligence score of 6 or higher)
would be foolish to refrain from using a magic item to its
advantage, unlike a typical NPC (whose power often
depends on the gear he carries), the challenge a dragon
poses derives primarily from its innate abilities, not the
treasure it has gathered.
Except in special circumstances, a dragon probably
shouldn’t use more than one or two magic items out of its
hoard.

Here's the second bit; it says quite clearly that, while they certainly wouldn't be outfitted as heavily as your average NPC, there's no reason they wouldn't cover a weakness or improve a strength with magic items, as long as the opportunity shows itself.

Next, the section on dragons & magic items:

RULES: DRAGONS AND MAGIC ITEMS
Being both very smart and very wealthy, dragons often employ
magic items...
Because magic items that must be worn will fit users of
any size, a dragon can use any magic item a humanoid character
can...

It then goes on to essentially say that dragons can use just about any magic item that isn't a weapon or piece of armour. But that's not the really important bit; the first sentence there settles it. Dragons often employ magic items.
It even lists, much later in the book, different magic items that are specifically for dragons.

So there you have it. By RAW, a dragon will happily buy and use magic items if it thinks they'll be useful - and they're clever enough to know they will be. Now of course, the question of whether you the DM will give them equipment is still up to personal preference, but any decision that a dragon will specifically not purchase or use a magic item when it logically should is pure houseruling.

Of course, that makes them even more of a pain to face, but at least it's internally consistent.

[Florian]

@Strigon: Before you sprout nonsense avout stuff being "by RAW" because they are what you want them to be, first check out now equipping standard monsters with items and then with WBL equivalent items raises CR. Thats your RAW right there.

[Beheld]

@Strigon: Before you sprout nonsense avout stuff being "by RAW" because they are what you want them to be, first check out now equipping standard monsters with items and then with WBL equivalent items raises CR. Thats your RAW right there.

"Generate their treasure according to their monster entry and the rules under Building a Treasure, below. This may generate more items that the monster can use, and that's fine (see Custom Treasures, below)."

It seems to say the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Also the custom treasure part says basically that for boss monsters you may want to give them full custom treasure so they can use all their items. Nothing at all about increasing CR.

[Tvtyrant]

Frankly, any dragon whose hoarding instincts are too strong to buy items is going to die young. I could see dragons up to juvenile with gen hoards, but after that only the paranoid ones are going to make it. There was a great minific of the weekly lofe of an adult red dragon who went to an oracle to find out if someone intended it harm in the next 7 days every week, and only left its cave if it was invisible.

The d&d world is rough. Beholders, Ethergaunts, demons, devils, anything with class levels, angels, mind flayer cults, incorporeal undead, and countless other creatures are capable of killing adult dragons. And the dragon population is low, so the number of those that slip through the cracks by chance ate proportionately less. Any dragon that makes it is going to know exactly how to survive in a world of monsters.

[Strigon]

@Strigon: Before you sprout nonsense avout stuff being "by RAW" because they are what you want them to be, first check out now equipping standard monsters with items and then with WBL equivalent items raises CR. Thats your RAW right there.

The question of whether it raises CR is completely irrelevant; the discussion we were having was entirely based upon whether a dragon would or would not purchase and equip magic items. The rules are quite clear on the matter; they do.
I really have no idea how any of the things you said is relevant to that topic.