Disembodied hand invocation help

[Zeruel]

So guys, I took a look at all warlock's invocations trying to build one, and I came across this one. On the internet it's said to be like the "warlock's spectral hand, besides some minor differences. But one thing I saw just completely ruined it to me: it says that "you can use it as if it were still attached - [...], or even delivering a touch attack with a spell or invocation that you cast before it detaches.
That's awful, because that would mean that any touch attack spell/invocation that doesn't hold the charge, like teleport or bestow curse and its warlock variant, couldn't be delivered via the disembodied hand if it's already detached, and further more, for spells that hold the charge like shocking grasp, I'd have to use the move action for the hand to get it back, and only then casting the spell on enemies in only a 30 ft. range (the hand flying speed, while the actual spectral hand moves instantly inside spell range and doesn't have to return to you between attacks). That would be like comparing an automatic sniper rifle to a single-action airsoft gun...

So, am I reading it right (hoping I'm not)?

[mabriss lethe]

You've pretty much got the right of it. It's one of the more entertaining and unique invocations, but I don't think it's ever been held in high regard.

[Troacctid]

You can still use the hand in all ways as if it were still attached, so you can still cast touch spells or invocations through it. Not that there are any good invocations with touch range anyway. The main use is to manipulate objects or make weapon attacks from a distance. It's fairly underpowered for a lesser invocation.

[nedz]

I always visualised this as a means of escaping from prison.

You wait until the guard falls asleep, and then you detach your hand and retrieve the keys ...

There are probably other uses, but not all that many.

[Troacctid]

There are a few nifty tricks you can do with it, and it would be quite good as a least invocation, but when it's competing for a lesser invocation slot, it's hard to justify taking it, especially since a lot of the functionality can be duplicated by a flying familiar.

[torrasque666]

I always visualised this as a means of escaping from prison.

You wait until the guard falls asleep, and then you detach your hand and retrieve the keys ...

There are probably other uses, but not all that many.
I now want to try this with a Daelkyr Half-Blood with a Crawling Gauntlet as well. One hand gets the keys, while the other... I dunno. BUT TWO HANDS!

[nedz]

A Rogue, taking a Warlock dip to grab this, might find some other uses.

Sleight of Hand through a letter box.
Forgery at a distance.
An unlikely flanking position in a confined area.
Disarming a trap from a safe distance.
Opening a door by releasing the latch — from the other side.


Also there are less salubrious uses.

[Troacctid]

A Rogue, taking a Warlock dip to grab this, might find some other uses.

Sleight of Hand through a letter box.
Forgery at a distance.
An unlikely flanking position in a confined area.
Disarming a trap from a safe distance.
Opening a door by releasing the latch — from the other side.


Also there are less salubrious uses.

See, but all of those except the fourth can be done by a familiar. Also, the last one doesn't work--your hand can't phase through walls.

[nedz]

See, but all of those except the fourth can be done by a familiar. Also, the last one doesn't work--your hand can't phase through walls.

Well you need a small opening, which may be smaller than your familiar.

Also the hand is kind of disposable, in that you can grow a new one, whilst loosing a familiar is more problematic.

And Eldritch Blast is also invaluable for a Rogue, as a magical ranged touch delivery vehicle for your sniping. Now you can do this with spells, but a 1 level dip doesn't get you many.

Also, on the very last point, ... well it depends upon how familiar you are with your familiar.:smallamused:

[ben-zayb]

Is the hand considered an object or a creature? What if it's PAOd and then reattached?

If you are Colossal, can your disembodied hand provide cover?

If you are a Lycanthrope, does using Alternate Form turn it into a clawed hand with 1 Claw attack?

[Rijan_Sai]

I think you're all missing the important point: if this is the invocation I think it is*, you get to create your own personal Thing (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(The_Addams_Family))!

Thanks. You may now return to your regularly scheduled optimization.

*AFB; if it's not the one I'm thinking of, I will edit in a correction later.

[MisterKaws]

I always visualised this as a means of escaping from prison.

You wait until the guard falls asleep, and then you detach your hand and retrieve the keys ...

There are probably other uses, but not all that many.

I'd rather break the prison walls with warlock's obnoxiously versatile at-will shatter, and then get out of there flying.

[Troacctid]

I'd rather break the prison walls with warlock's obnoxiously versatile at-will shatter, and then get out of there flying.

You can't usually break walls with Shatter because of the weight limit.

[MisterKaws]

You can't usually break walls with Shatter because of the weight limit.

You can, just break a portion of (weight limit) at a time, till the wall is gone.

[Jack_Simth]

You can, just break a portion of (weight limit) at a time, till the wall is gone.
Catch: The weight limit is for the target object. Shatter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm) doesn't say anything about targeting part of an object, and the invocation pretty much says "As the shatter spell"

[nedz]

I'd rather break the prison walls with warlock's obnoxiously versatile at-will shatter, and then get out of there flying.

Using the hand is more stylish though.

[Rijan_Sai]

Is the hand considered an object or a creature?
While I can't answer the rest of the post, I did see this:

The hand is considered a Diminutive creature with AC [redacted] and [redacted] hit points.
The second sentence of the second paragraph.

[MisterKaws]

Catch: The weight limit is for the target object. Shatter doesn't say anything about targeting part of an object, and the invocation pretty much says "As the shatter spell"

You can always target the bricks :smalltongue:

[Zeruel]

Wow, this thread has evolved since I submitted it... Well, those you posted are all good methods to make use of this invocation. Unfortunatly for me, you already gave me the tragic answer I so much feared... The fact is that I was trying to build a warlock capable of using flee the scene at distance to realize hit-n-run tactics like taking an enemy as far in the sky as possible with me at the start of a fight by touching him with disembodied hand and channeling flee the scene (or any other teleport-like spell), so that he could hopefully drop to his death, while I can keep flying with fell flight and moving myself far from the fight, all that in a single round, then blasting the Hell-dritch out of all the other foes. Seems I will have to stick with spectral hand... :smallbiggrin:

[Elxir_Breauer]

One thing almost everyone seems to forget about all the different Teleportation effects and spells, as well as most Conjuration (Summoning) effects, is that the landing zone must be a surface capable of holding the weight of the new targets. There are actually no Teleportation or Conjuration Summoning spells that I am aware of that lift this restriction. Many DMs either don't realize this rule or simply house-rule it away for Rule of Cool shenanigans, but technically a ton of the more awesome uses don't work according to RAW. (I may have missed some spells/effects that do in fact actually lift this restriction.) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration

Relevant text: A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

[Jack_Simth]

You can always target the bricks :smalltongue:
Assuming the bricks in a fully built wall are treated as separate objects, yes. However, one of the examples of an object in Shrink item is a fire and it's fuel (which would usually be multiple separate logs), so this is highly DM-dependant.

[Troacctid]

Dimension Door, and by extension Flee the Scene, hits willing creatures only.

[MisterKaws]

Assuming the bricks in a fully built wall are treated as separate objects, yes. However, one of the examples of an object in Shrink item is a fire and it's fuel (which would usually be multiple separate logs), so this is highly DM-dependant.

Then you just need a good enough bribe...

[Jack_Simth]

Then you just need a good enough bribe...
If you're successfully bribing the DM, then the rules are rather irrelevant, and it doesn't matter in the first place.

[Zeruel]

One thing almost everyone seems to forget about all the different Teleportation effects and spells, as well as most Conjuration (Summoning) effects, is that the landing zone must be a surface capable of holding the weight of the new targets. There are actually no Teleportation or Conjuration Summoning spells that I am aware of that lift this restriction. Many DMs either don't realize this rule or simply house-rule it away for Rule of Cool shenanigans, but technically a ton of the more awesome uses don't work according to RAW. (I may have missed some spells/effects that do in fact actually lift this restriction.) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration

Relevant text: A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

You're right, that's why since I objected to the DM that he keeps summoning/conjuring incorporeal creatures (which I saw in a thread that, by RAW, they can't actually be summoned/conjured, obviously do to an oversight while writing the rules), I was able to get away with the houserule that, if I'm able to prevent falling after a teleportation (like by flight or levitation), I can actually teleport without a solid floor under my feet (which makes me unable to teleport non-flying enemies, so I still can't use it as an efficient attack manouver)... :smallbiggrin:


Dimension Door, and by extension Flee the Scene, hits willing creatures only.

Not correct, if you look at teleport or dimension door's spell descriptions, you'll see that they allow a ST against Will in the "Saving Throw" section.

[Troacctid]

Not correct, if you look at teleport or dimension door's spell descriptions, you'll see that they allow a ST against Will in the "Saving Throw" section.

Only willing creatures can be the target of Dimension Door.

Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures

You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels.

The saving throw is for objects, which need not be willing.

[Zeruel]

Only willing creatures can be the target of Dimension Door.

The saving throw is for objects, which need not be willing.

Again, not correct. I don't know how to quote external sources, so I'll just try explain (sorry if I'm going to be unclear or wrong):

If a ST is, like in this case, Will (object), doesn't mean that only objects are entitled to it, it simply means that magical and/or carried or wielded items, which usally are not actually "willing" thing (that's why they use the character's STs' modifiers), have to make a Will ST, which otherwise automatically succedes (I've yet to see a jar failing to resist the compulsion to suicide :smallbiggrin: ). You can verify this in the Player Handbook's "Magic" chapter at the section Saving Throws in "Spell Description".

Besides, it is usually specified in the spell's description when a spell you cast automatically fails on an unwilling subject (see raise dead), and since here it is not specified, I assume it depends on that ST. All this is not in contrast, from what I see, with the "Will negates (object)" meaning.

[Troacctid]

Again, not correct. I don't know how to quote external sources, so I'll just try explain (sorry if I'm going to be unclear or wrong):

If a ST is, like in this case, Will (object), doesn't mean that only objects are entitled to it, it simply means that magical and/or carried or wielded items, which usally are not actually "willing" thing (that's why they use the character's STs' modifiers), have to make a Will ST, which otherwise automatically succedes (I've yet to see a jar failing to resist the compulsion to suicide :smallbiggrin: ). You can verify this in the Player Handbook's "Magic" chapter at the section Saving Throws in "Spell Description".

Besides, it is usually specified in the spell's description when a spell you cast automatically fails on an unwilling subject (see raise dead), and since here it is not specified, I assume it depends on that ST. All this is not in contrast, from what I see, with the "Will negates (object)" meaning.

Yes, that's how saving throws for objects work. The spell can still only target creatures if they're willing, because that's what the spell specifically says.

[Zeruel]

Yes, that's how saving throws for objects work. The spell can still only target creatures if they're willing, because that's what the spell specifically says.

Ok, but as I said:


Besides, it is usually specified in the spell's description when a spell you cast automatically fails on an unwilling subject (see raise dead), and since here it is not specified, I assume it depends on that ST. All this is not in contrast, from what I see, with the "Will negates (object)" meaning.

So, I argue that if a spell which says that its effect works on willing subjects also automatically prevents unwilling ones to be affected (which is not written anywhere), why a spell like raise dead should specify that the effect won't work on unwilling subjects?

And further more, why an object should get a saving throw if I can only target willing subjects anyway? Can't imagine a magic sword not wanting to follow his master. And if you are going to call forth artifacts with alignment opposite to his wielder's, I'm not going to believe that a rule has been specifically made to target them only...

The paradox here is:
1. Both objects and creatures get the ST

or

2. Both objects and creatures DON'T get the ST

and since "2" is impossible (who gets the ST in the spell description then?), "1" must be true.

It all makes sense to me, why not to you? I'm not bitching or anything, I'm just trying to be constructive.

P.S.: sorry for repeating "subject/object" over and over,I can't recall many synonymous for them... /(^^;)

[Troacctid]

Raise Dead requires the creature's soul to be willing, but it targets the body, which, being dead, doesn't have a will one way or the other.

Objects get a saving throw because the spell can only target willing creatures. Objects need not be willing--if you touch the enemy's shield, you can teleport away with it, but you can't bring the enemy himself.

[nedz]

I now want to make a new magical item:

Box of the thing
This consist of a wooden box about 8 inches long, 6 inches wide and 4 inches tall, with a hinged lid on one side.
When someone places their hand in the box the lid snaps shut apparently severing their hand. After the disembodiment, the box lid will snap open and their hand will crawl out. In actuality their hand has merely been disembodied, as per the Disembodied hand warlock invocation.

The box will resize itself to fit any hand so inserted.

I'm not sure if this should only work for Warlocks, or anyone ?

[Zeruel]

Raise Dead requires the creature's soul to be willing, but it targets the body, which, being dead, doesn't have a will one way or the other.

Objects get a saving throw because the spell can only target willing creatures. Objects need not be willing--if you touch the enemy's shield, you can teleport away with it, but you can't bring the enemy himself.

Yeah, I think I could see it that way. Seems you won this match ^^
*ding* *ding*
T.K.O., the winner is Troacctid! :smalltongue:


I now want to make a new magical item:

Box of the thing
This consist of a wooden box about 8 inches long, 6 inches wide and 4 inches tall, with a hinged lid on one side.
When someone places their hand in the box the lid snaps shut apparently severing their hand. After the disembodiment, the box lid will snap open and their hand will crawl out. In actuality their hand has merely been disembodied, as per the Disembodied hand warlock invocation.

The box will resize itself to fit any hand so inserted.

I'm not sure if this should only work for Warlocks, or anyone ?

Good idea, indeed. What spells would be needed to craft it? I'd go for spectral hand and/or animate object. The duration to me should be like 10 rounds, after which the hand just drops lifelessly and won't grow back naturally.

EDIT: And since warlocks get it as invocation, I think it could be useful for non-warlocks above all :)

[Deophaun]

One thing almost everyone seems to forget about all the different Teleportation effects and spells, as well as most Conjuration (Summoning) effects, is that the landing zone must be a surface capable of holding the weight of the new targets. There are actually no Teleportation or Conjuration Summoning spells that I am aware of that lift this restriction. Many DMs either don't realize this rule or simply house-rule it away for Rule of Cool shenanigans, but technically a ton of the more awesome uses don't work according to RAW. (I may have missed some spells/effects that do in fact actually lift this restriction.) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration

Relevant text: A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
Just highlighting that. By RAW, it's perfectly allowable for a (teleportation) spell to throw a pre-existing target 1 mile in the air, provided you are not at that location at the time. So, you can benign transposition one of your party members with your flying raven familiar, but you cannot benign transposition them with yourself while you're floating 5' off the ground.

[nedz]

Good idea, indeed. What spells would be needed to craft it? I'd go for spectral hand and/or animate object. The duration to me should be like 10 rounds, after which the hand just drops lifelessly and won't grow back naturally.
Ooch — that's more of a cursed item.


EDIT: And since warlocks get it as invocation, I think it could be useful for non-warlocks above all :)

Well you could model it on the Rods which grant invocations — which would make it Warlock only. Also, it's an invocation Warlocks are unlikely to take.

[Zeruel]

Ooch — that's more of a cursed item.

Why cursed? It'd be more a blessing with short-terms tactical functions, despite the consequences for when the time elapses... :smallbiggrin:


Well you could model it on the Rods which grant invocations — which would make it Warlock only. Also, it's an invocation Warlocks are unlikely to take.

I don't know, I think that it should be usable by anyone. Warlocks who need other invoks more than this can use it to spare one slot, spellcasters can use it to gain a creepy familiar, rogues would benefit of a sneaky companion, and all others could show their friends a cute and nifty trick (^^)
Maybe warlocks could benefit of the item's effect at will and with no drawbacks, spellcasters could use it for 1 min/caster level, and all others for those 10 rounds.