Why do bladesingers get 2 attacks?

[Rajah]

Doesn't this defeat the whole point of the cantrips? It seems like it is a trap. Why would you need to attack twice? What am I missing with the Bladesinger?

[techsamurai5000]

Doesn't this defeat the whole point of the cantrips? It seems like it is a trap. Why would you need to attack twice? What am I missing with the Bladesinger?

Suppose you only picked Greenflame Blade and you're fighting something immune to fire.. or you want to (for whatever reason) use a bow (perhaps for the same reason.. to overcome resistances). The Bladesinger is supposed to be "warrior-ish."

Though it probably is more for flavor than anything else.

[DireSickFish]

Having really good magic weapons in a high magic game would make attacking twice worthwhile. If you haste yourself you get 3 attack instead of cantriping which would be worthwhile. If you are a multiclass you could be using wizard to gain an extra attack so synergize with whatever your second class is that would rather be taking weapon attacks instead of cantriping.

Perhaps for whatever character concept you don't use the new cantrips and thus the second attack gives you decent at will damage in close range. Perhaps you have a crazy graple build that relies on wizard spells to help lock targets down, with extra attack now you can make two graple/shove actions a round. Perhaps your in an antimagic zone and don't have any cantrips. Perhaps you are challenging a group of barbarians to a duel and can't us magic as it is "dishonorable".

Really it's there to make sure you can swing a sword as well as sling spells. The cantrips have better scaling in a vacuum as a single class but there are more than enough corner cases where swinging twice would come in handy.

[Rajah]

Sorry, I mean if you went Bladesinger 20. I can see the benefits to a multiclass. It just seems like it could be a false choice for a pure Bladesinger. Though the point about resistances and magic weapons is valid.

[coredump]

And besides that, the design of an entire subclass should not be based on assumptions of what cantrips you may or may not take.

[Safety Sword]

It's all about the music?

[Zman]

D8 +4 +D8Fire at 6th level
13
and
D8 +5 +2d8Fire at 11th
18.5
is less than....

D8+4
D8+4
17 at 6th
D8+5
D8+5
19 at 11th level

And has a lower chance of doing no damage on a turn. Also, some things are immune to fire.

Basically anything that is immune to your Cantrip's damage type, any time before level 17 when you are against a single enemy you are better off using your two melee attacks. Gets even better if you dipped Fighter for Dueling.


At 14th level when you add Int to Damage it is increasingly rare that your Cantrip will deal more damage, ie only when another enemy is in range with Greenfire Blade and never unless your target moves with Booming Blade.

[Demonic Spoon]

My guess is that the new cantrips - while good for the Bladesinger in some circumstances - were more meant to separately address one criticism of gishes in 5e, which was that they attack OR cast spells rather than weave spells into their attacks.

[Fwiffo86]

My guess is that the new cantrips - while good for the Bladesinger in some circumstances - were more meant to separately address one criticism of gishes in 5e, which was that they attack OR cast spells rather than weave spells into their attacks.

This is probably true. But I agree with the logic of you either Cast or Attack, not both. I know a great many people find that unacceptable. Its the oldschooler in me I suppose.

[Sigreid]

Probably mostly because the bladsinger is supposed to be a melee combat gish, capable of throwing down, and you can't really say that if they only get one lame attack. It'll also help if they are in an anti-magic zone.

[steppedonad4]

Because sometimes you need two attacks. It's about options. Just because no single option is the best choice in every circumstance, a hold-over from previous editions, doesn't mean it's a bad option.

[CNagy]

It's a trap meant to fool you into thinking you can wade into a melee with your fancy AC and two attacks. :smallbiggrin:

[silveralen]

I'd say it exists mainly to make the class feel *less* magic dependent. In the sense that even inside an anti magic field you can show you are still a more competent swordsman than the average wizard.

There is also the fact that, for at least a period, two attacks may offer more damage than a cantrip. By the time you hit 17 this is less true, but when your cantrip a are basically just an extra 1d8 to the main target, and the secondary effect won't go off, it can be helpful.

[Zman]

Actually, Two attacks always does more damage to a single target than Greenflame blade and more than Booming blade if the target does not move and trigger its secondary effect which is pretty rare.

Lvl6 2d8 +8 >2d8=4
Lvl11 2d8 +10 > 3D8+5 is 19>18.5
Lvl14 2d8 +18 >3D8+9 is 27>22.5
Lvl17 2d8 +20 >4D8+10 is 29>28

And we cannot fail to mention that with two attacks you have much more consistent damage, by using the single attack Cantrip your damage is all or nothing where with two attacks you have two chances to hit evening out your average damage.

Assuming a 60% chance to Hit at lvl 6
Cantrip 40% chance of 0 Damage, 60% chance of 18.5 Damage
Two attacks 16% chance of 0 Damage, 48% chance of 9.5 Damage, 36% chance of 19 Damage

[Rajah]

I understand options, but if two attacks are always better than the cantrip, then why ever use the cantrip?
I appreciate options and flavor, I guess but it should be two equal options, not 1 that seems always worse. Not sure if I am voicing my concern properly here.

[Tanarii]

Because the cantrips provide options.

1) 2 attacks = consistent damage, higher single target dpr.
2) green flame = higher total dpr vs 2 targets
3) booming blade = stop your target from moving, or it takes extra damage (targets choice)

[MaxWilson]

Doesn't this defeat the whole point of the cantrips? It seems like it is a trap. Why would you need to attack twice? What am I missing with the Bladesinger?

So that everybody thinks you're just a warrior.

"I admit it, you are better than me."
"Then why are you smiling?"
"Because I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?"
"I... am not a fighter." [Meteor Swarm]
"There's something I ought to tell you. I'm not a fighter either." [Counterspell]


Actually, Two attacks always does more damage to a single target than Greenflame blade and more than Booming blade if the target does not move and trigger its secondary effect which is pretty rare.

Booming Blade goes well with Expeditious Retreat. Most monsters have no effective ranged attacks, so either they move or they stand there stupidly for a turn waiting for Booming Blade to wear off.

[PoeticDwarf]

Doesn't this defeat the whole point of the cantrips? It seems like it is a trap. Why would you need to attack twice? What am I missing with the Bladesinger?

It is like a (bad) designed valor bard, cantrips are weak anyway, a bladesinger is a melee wizard. Now the wizard can do more than 40 damage a round with weapons. That is the whole point. A high level wizard doesn't use cantrips anyway.