Belkar is not dead, and I was wrong.

[hrak]

havent seen this idea brought up yet, and I posted it in another thread discussing how he might live, but I think my idea might be kinda off that threads topic so I am starting my own, consider this:

Belkar already is dead from the fall. However, he lands on the winding road that leads from the mountain. One of the many clerics leaving the mount may pass his body and for some reason raise him as he will look recently dead from a fall that could only come from the godsmount. Thus they will conclude he was a participant in said gods-mount and very likely raise him.

This allows for a few things. First it will let Belkar taste the terrible afterlife that awaits him as he is still evil and this might further push him towards neutral/good. And Second, it still allows for belkar to die later on in the comic in a redeeming way that leads him to possibly the Chaotic Good after life with his Idol Shojo.

Thoughts?

[Mandor]

Possible. We know the Oracle said he will take his last breath ever this year. But he could in theory die 5 times and be rezzed 4 times and still qualify for that statement, as long as they all happen before year's end. Certainly a whole host of us are curious on exactly what kind of afterlife people on the Deep End of the Alignment pool get. Our real world conditioning tells us that it's all torment and suffering, but who knows? Maybe the Baatezu, Daemons, and Demons might actually promote those who have been sufficently evil with some kind of rank. It would be interesting to see either way.

Of course, we're all also kind of taking it as a given that the Oracle isn't just flat-out LYING because he hates Belkar. I'd say it's massively unlikely that he's lying. But we technically don't know that he can't do it, since it's kind of hard to prove a negative. So I occasionally entertain the possibility on a what-the-heck.

[Talion]

It's not outside the realm of possibility. Belkar isn't quite as sturdy as Roy or Durkon, but still fairly solid with D8's and D12's from his barbarian level(s). There's no real information on his Constitution, but:

If we assume he has taken only one level of barbarian, he'd get anywhere between 1-12 HP for it. On average, about 6.

If we assume that he has 13 levels of ranger (putting him lower than the class and level geekery thread proposes) that's 12D8+8. On average, that's about 68. So we could reasonably expect him to have an HP total in the 70's.

We know he took a bit of damage from his incident with Durkula, and possibly some from his protective clasp. The maximum falling damage he can receive is 20D6. On the low end, that's 20 on top of what he took from Durkula. High end, 120. Average, around 70.

By the numbers, he's likely dead at the bottom of the ravine. Ironically anti-climatic for his brutish and in your face lifestyle.

However, as stated, that doesn't necessarily mean he's out of the game. There's more than enough clerics standing around to come up with a simple resurrection. After all that's happened, the Order might not be opposed to bringing him back this time either. The question the becomes:

1. Will a cleric survive who can bring him back?

2. Will something else prevent him from being brought back (such as a contingency put in place by the gods that prevents resurrections until the Snarl matter resolves itself)?

3. Will the Order have time to find the body or will they be forced to leave him behind?

Or, 4. Will Belkar actually decide to stay dead for some reason?

[Mandor]

2. Will something else prevent him from being brought back (such as a contingency put in place by the gods that prevents resurrections until the Snarl matter resolves itself)?


Now *that* is a possibility i had not considered, and a very real one too. If the gods figure that destroying the world, murdering everyone on it is merciful compared to the risk of the Snarl unmaking them, then it stands to reason that they might no longer grant Ressurection or Raise Dead spells while they think they might still need to do that. From their point of view, anyone already dead and gone to their eternal reward is safe.

[Gift Jeraff]

:( Rest in P

[Tathum]

I refuse to believe that Belkar's death would be treated so anti-climatically.

And, I don't mean being tossed out a window after a bout with Durkula, that is a champion way to go, I just mean without any immediate confirmation or anyone to witness it. That would be a disservice to our Sexy, Shoeless, God of War.

Also, I was always laboring under the assumption that Belkar would redeem himself in some small way before being offed, something that shows he really has made the move from CE to CN.

[Remagamer]

It's not outside the realm of possibility. Belkar isn't quite as sturdy as Roy or Durkon, but still fairly solid with D8's and D12's from his barbarian level(s). There's no real information on his Constitution, but:

If we assume he has taken only one level of barbarian, he'd get anywhere between 1-12 HP for it. On average, about 6.

If we assume that he has 13 levels of ranger (putting him lower than the class and level geekery thread proposes) that's 12D8+8. On average, that's about 68. So we could reasonably expect him to have an HP total in the 70's.

We know he took a bit of damage from his incident with Durkula, and possibly some from his protective clasp. The maximum falling damage he can receive is 20D6. On the low end, that's 20 on top of what he took from Durkula. High end, 120. Average, around 70.

By the numbers, he's likely dead at the bottom of the ravine. Ironically anti-climatic for his brutish and in your face lifestyle.

However, as stated, that doesn't necessarily mean he's out of the game. There's more than enough clerics standing around to come up with a simple resurrection. After all that's happened, the Order might not be opposed to bringing him back this time either. The question the becomes:

1. Will a cleric survive who can bring him back?

2. Will something else prevent him from being brought back (such as a contingency put in place by the gods that prevents resurrections until the Snarl matter resolves itself)?

3. Will the Order have time to find the body or will they be forced to leave him behind?

Or, 4. Will Belkar actually decide to stay dead for some reason?

Wow...it's hard to believe but given the fact that the Mechane and V have done nothing, it seems likely Belkar's done for :smallfrown:

[ChillerInstinct]

I refuse to believe that Belkar's death would be treated so anti-climatically.

And, I don't mean being tossed out a window after a bout with Durkula, that is a champion way to go, I just mean without any immediate confirmation or anyone to witness it. That would be a disservice to our Sexy, Shoeless, God of War.

Also, I was always laboring under the assumption that Belkar would redeem himself in some small way before being offed, something that shows he really has made the move from CE to CN.

Considering all the fake-outs we've had with him, and the fact that every single time Belkar's been in trouble for years people have been saying "THIS IS IT", I think dying and getting immediately rezzed is one "gotcha" moment that I think we should get over and done with before the final showdown with Xykon and all that it entails.

I mean, for all the ways that the slippery little weasel's avoided his prophecy so far, temporarily dying would probably be the crowner.

I'm thinking just a single, massive, page-wide splash panel of his body in the snow at the foot of the mountain, double-X's and everything... then in a single row of small sized panels, some cleric who went out for a pizza finishes his Raise Dead spell, and the last panel shows Belkar running back up the mountain to get revenge.

...But really, at this point, unless Belkar bought some sort of provision after getting tossed from the Mechane twice, is there any foreshadowed way he could get out of this WITHOUT splatting at the bottom?

[Lombard]

Belkar is dead. Long live Belkar!

[hrak]

I'm thinking just a single, massive, page-wide splash panel of his body in the snow at the foot of the mountain, double-X's and everything... then in a single row of small sized panels, some cleric who went out for a pizza finishes his Raise Dead spell, and the last panel shows Belkar running back up the mountain to get revenge.

...But really, at this point, unless Belkar bought some sort of provision after getting tossed from the Mechane twice, is there any foreshadowed way he could get out of this WITHOUT splatting at the bottom?

This is exactly what I was picturing. His frozen splatted body lying on the side of the road. And some cleric happens by..

Because the road at the bottom is the only foreshadowing we have. Belkar already prepared for getting thrown from high places by purchasing a protection from evil clasp. Because if he gets dominated it doesnt matter if he has a trick in his pocket to save him from a fall. Belkar was smart enough to address the true root of the problem. The dominating gaze. Additionally now that V and the crew have been ruled out there is really no doubt in my mind that he dies from this fall, whether for a fakeout or for chsracter growth in hell, but I also beleive he will be brought back for the final showdown either by passing cleric.... Or:

Roy and Durkon, after the current conflict is resolved, both feeling the need to reconcile with Belkar after all that's happened (what with Belkar sticking up for Durkons personality and integrity when he percieved that the HPoH couldn't possibly be old Durkon) go looking for his dead body in the general area Durkon recalls him being thrown. Seeing him by the roadside I bet they'd feel like they owe him a resurrection.

[DavidBV]

I just had a little idea.

Imagine we now see Belkar down in a rocky mountainous area, fighting some monsters or other encounters. But eventually we find out he is actually dead, in hell. Yet he doesn't go out of the story: maybe he takes part in the IFCC & Sabine scenes, even teaming up with the later in some lower-planes related plot. We still don't know what the Board of Directors is up to, after all.

[Onyavar]

I just had a little idea.

Imagine we now see Belkar down in a rocky mountainous area, fighting some monsters or other encounters. But eventually we find out he is actually dead, in hell. Yet he doesn't go out of the story: maybe he takes part in the IFCC & Sabine scenes, even teaming up with the later in some lower-planes related plot. We still don't know what the Board of Directors is up to, after all.
This has been brought up before, and it's among the ideas of how his multiple (!) death prophecies by the oracle are fulfilled that I like better. The others are that the oracle was wrong (e.g. by seeing his demise in the illusionary dream realm and thinking he was dead then) or that the multiple prophecies are fulfilled seperately (e.g. first he draws his last breath, turns undead or something, survives the year but still isn't long for the world)

Regarding the resurrection theory, I'd like to remember that said wandering priest still needs to pay for him in diamonds. Most priests won't squander a fortune just like that. More likely that Roy springs the diamonds once they find the body, if and after Undurkon escapes.

Regarding the idea he actually died from the fall, I want to bring up that yes, V and the others don't seem concerned with Belkar at the moment, so they MAY not have noticed Belkar's fall. Note that Vaarsuvius comment suggests that the last panels are not a flashback/jump back in time: V noticed flashes of light and muffled battle noise from the moot; we are at the present.
But then, maybe they already rescued him several rounds ago and he was just off-panel. Doesn't seem too likely though. But there is also the fact that Mr. Scruffy, Belkar's bonded companion, is momentarily at ease. My theory on the matter: Belkar carried a potion, healed himself during the fall, survived with a decent margin of hitpoints intact, and has struggled to get back to the moot ever since.

[Czhorat]

I adore out-of-the-box thinking, but I'd be surprised if Belkar died off-screen only to be brought back. Burlew has said more than once that he does not want death to seem a minor inconvenience; that's why we're unlikely to see a True Resurrection and why Roy's return to life was the culmination of a long journey by Haley and Belkar. "He died from the fall, but is brought back immediately" feels like a cheap death and, more to the point, a cheap return to life.

I still suspect that we'll find Belkar injured and inconvenienced, yet alive. The final vote will go against Hel, leaving the two vampire dwarfs to escape in pursuit of the second phase of Hel's plan. This will give a chance for the confrontation between Roy and Belkar about the former ingoring the latter's warnings as well as the completion of the arc between Durkon and the undead spirit inhabiting his body.

That feels like the general shape of the story, but I could be, of course, completely wrong.

[brian 333]

Did we forget his ring of jumping? I'm sure the Belkster can land on his feet. He looked more mad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html) than worried as he fell.

I'm in favor of ending Belkar right now, never going back to see the body, never an afterlife miniseries. It would be bigger than the end of the Sopranos!

[The Fury]

I refuse to believe that Belkar's death would be treated so anti-climatically.


Yeah, it'd be an anticlimax but a hilarious anticlimax. Plus, y'know murder. Always a good bonus.

Looking at it that way it almost seems like an appropriate way for the character to go out.

[Bulldog Psion]

This is an interesting theory.

The fact that Belkar hasn't showed up again is the main reason I think it has any chance of being true. He might also just be dead as a doornail, of course.

The ladder is still in place; if Belkar was alive, he'd either be back in the moot building by now, or he would have hustled up the ladder to sound the alarm. The fact that neither occurred lends some weight to the notion he's dead, permanently or impermanently as the case may be.

[hrak]

I don't think Belkar dying here only to be rezzed in short order would undermine the authors established stance on death and resurrection. There is important character growth to be had from dying and coming back that could be the perfect capstone to the growth we've seen so far in Belkar. Additionally a meeting of high level clerics of this caliber is a rare occurrence and could easily be an exception to the general rule as most fatal conflicts aren't taking place in such close proximity to a gathering of this sort.

I think the theory that Belkar indeed survived the fall and is slowly making his way up has some merit. By the rules, it is technically possible he could get a lower role of damage and also consume a healing potion on the way down. However... We've seen only evidence against this theory. No one has spotted him walking up the spiralling path in clear view of the ship despite it being established that V is watching. And in multiple key moments of the Roy vs HPoH conflict Belkar did not burst in. The only evidence I see in favor of Belkar not being dead at this point is his animal companion not freaking out.. But from my memory, I don't think the rules directly state this should happen.

[Macros]

While I don't share an apparently widespread belief that Belkar will manage to weasel out his way of the prophecy, I find it hard to believe he died right here. Sure, killing him like that certainly would subvert our expectations, but I don't think this is how the Giant opperates. While he does like to challenge our expectations, it's never at the cost of coherent storytelling. Here, Belkar's death would seem almost random.

[hrak]

While I don't share an apparently widespread belief that Belkar will manage to weasel out his way of the prophecy, I find it hard to believe he died right here. Sure, killing him like that certainly would subvert our expectations, but I don't think this is how the Giant opperates. While he does like to challenge our expectations, it's never at the cost of coherent storytelling. Here, Belkar's death would seem almost random.

What is random about HPoH murdering him? They have had a long term conflict with multiple bouts, including Belkar purchasing an item specifically to fight HPoH. Additonaly a high level vampire cleric is well out of Belkar's league so Belkar fatalling losing the fight fits well into the story and what we know. HPoH also makes the claim to have killed Belkar, and while that claim garentees nothing, it does imply the intent to permantly off Belkar as he admitted to wanting to do to Roy as well.

Maybe you think his death itself is random? But as we have seen countless times, the Giant loves to subvert our expectations regarding the prophesy by putting Belkar in many near death experiences. Actually killing Belkar when we don't expect it is a ploy he hasn't done yet and one that I think fits into his story telling style. "I didn't see THAT comin, but it makes complete sense!" Is something he loves to make his audience say.

[Macros]

Durkula killing Belkar wouldn't be random, but the way it happened here certainly would be : thrown out of a window just before moving to a different scene? When Roy and Durkon bought it, we stayed with them until the end, we got to share their last thoughts (even if, for Roy, it was "I totally figured out how to survive!"). While a sudden death is not to be discounted, a death only confirmed well after the fact seems to be completely against everything the Giant has done so far. Basically, the crux of my argument is "if Belkar was dead, we would have seen him go splash." You might think that it is an attempt at subversion, but I really don't think that's the kind of thing Rich would want to subvert.

[Kantaki]

I doubt Belkar is dead. While I have no problem with the idea itself I think we would have seen at least a hint that he didn't survive his fall.

After 16+ comics and Roy's realization about the HPoH the Order finding out (or not finding out, but I can't see them leaving without looking for him) that the latter killed Belkar would kind of feel pointless. Well, to me at least.

Not to mention that Durkon died to protect Belkar (and the others). If the vampire that replaced him were responsible for the death of any member of the Order of the Stick that would, while certainly in-character for it, kind make this sacrifice pointless.

A anticlimatic, randomish death for the Shoeless God of War would be fine, even if I hope for something related to his character development, but I don't think it will happen there and now.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

First it will let Belkar taste the terrible afterlife that awaits him as he is still evil and this might further push him towards neutral/good.

But then what's the point? If Thog stopped eating puppies because Nale punished him for it or because he became allergic to them it wouldn't be real character development. He still wants to eat puppies. If Belkar changes because he has seen the afterlife he's not really getting any better, he's just playing a part to get what he wants. And yeah, Belkar has changed before by playing a part first and getting used to it second, but he has also known about the afterlife his entire life. People in this universe know what's waiting for them. To me it probably wouldn't feel genuine, and it would definitely feel like a change of heart over something he already knew that shouldn't have made a difference.

[Jelly d6]

Like the posters above have mentioned, Mr Scruffy is a very certain hint at Belkar being relatively not in a grave danger.

He's not dead probably but neither he is crawling his way up to the Godsmoot. Pretty likely he might be lying still at -1 to -9 hp, stabilized.

[littlebum2002]

There is important character growth to be had from dying and coming back that could be the perfect capstone to the growth we've seen so far in Belkar.

But then again, all of that character growth can also be accomplished WITHOUT dying and being raised, which would be much simpler and accomplish the same goals.

I don't really see what that adds to the table except pointing out how easy it is to be raised in this universe, which Rich has already stated he doesn't want to do.

There's a reason why only one character has been raised from the dead so far, and only after months of being dead. If Rich is gonna suddenly start the whole "revolving door of the afterlife" motif here, then he's going to go against the theme he's stated that he wants for this universe.


(Also, the point can be made that, once you die the first time, your afterlife is set in stone. After all, the diva tested Roy so he didn't have to be tested again every time he dies. This implies that he doesn't NEED to be tested again, which implies that your actions after your first death don't contribute to your afterlife. If they did he would have to be tested every time)
NM this idea is bad and I should feel bad

[Bulldog Psion]

Like the posters above have mentioned, Mr Scruffy is a very certain hint at Belkar being relatively not in a grave danger.

He's not dead probably but neither he is crawling his way up to the Godsmoot. Pretty likely he might be lying still at -1 to -9 hp, stabilized.

That's a very good possibility, too. In fact, it probably makes the most sense. On the one hand, killing him only to rez him would be kind of overcomplicated, even if it is the kind of out of left field thing Rich occasionally does.

On the other hand, if he was conscious and ambulatory, he would have returned to the Moot building or the Mechane, and V would certainly have spotted him toiling up the road.

Having him near-death, unconscious, but stable would solve both problems simultaneously and still be a highly effective storytelling device.

(By the way, I really like your avatar. :smallbiggrin:)

[Mandor]

Like the posters above have mentioned, Mr Scruffy is a very certain hint at Belkar being relatively not in a grave danger.

He's not dead probably but neither he is crawling his way up to the Godsmoot. Pretty likely he might be lying still at -1 to -9 hp, stabilized.

Hm. Well, I honestly don't know the rules on this (though, certainly all rules are subject to the Will of the Giant and the Needs of the Story...). But that sounds more to me like the link between a familiar and his wizard. I don't know if Belkar and Mr.Scruffy have a true empathic link that extends beyond sight, or just a friendship and willingness to go to the mat for each other. I don't know that I've yet seen Mr. Scruffy distressed over Belkar's current health unless he SAW him in some kind of danger first. Sure, he went after Durkon like Lassie when Roy and Belkar were arrested and thrown into the arena, but Mr. Scruffy saw that happen.

All of that said, I haven't played pen&paper D&D since 1991. Life got hectic after college, people moved away and just never found a good crew locally to game with after that. So my impressions of the rules may be WILDY wrong.

[Bulldog Psion]

Poking around on the D20 SRD, I don't see anything suggesting that an animal companion (ranger, druid) has the same Empathic Link as a familiar. In fact, all of the animal companion's abilities are "Extraordinary," not "Supernatural," while the Empathic Link is "Supernatural."

In fact, we already have proof that there's probably no link. Yukyuk shot Mr. Scruffy, and Belkar had no idea it happened until he saw the cat injured.

So, my guess is that Mr. Scruffy could still be chilling happily while Belkar is lying somewhere dead on the road.

[Onyavar]

(Also, the point can be made that, once you die the first time, your afterlife is set in stone. After all, the diva tested Roy so he didn't have to be tested again every time he dies. This implies that he doesn't NEED to be tested again, which implies that your actions after your first death don't contribute to your afterlife. If they did he would have to be tested every time)

I agree on the rest of your post, but this here seems wrong to me. It was either implied or outright mentioned in the comic, that the Diva only judged Roy for his past adult life, making the case that she considered him LG based on his past actions and motivations.

If Roy completely screws up on the alignment scale between his resurrection and his eventual death, he will be judged again on the actions he took between then and now - no need to review his ENTIRE life again. The Diva mentioned that this would "get the paperwork out of the way". If Roy really slipped on the evil/chaos axis now, he runs danger to join a different afterlife, depending how grave his transgressions are.

[Jelly d6]

Poking around on the D20 SRD, I don't see anything suggesting that an animal companion (ranger, druid) has the same Empathic Link as a familiar. In fact, all of the animal companion's abilities are "Extraordinary," not "Supernatural," while the Empathic Link is "Supernatural."

In fact, we already have proof that there's probably no link. Yukyuk shot Mr. Scruffy, and Belkar had no idea it happened until he saw the cat injured.

So, my guess is that Mr. Scruffy could still be chilling happily while Belkar is lying somewhere dead on the road.

That's why I call it just a hint, not an evidence. The only weak suggestion of their common empathic link comes from the shared illusion in Girard's pyramid which is certainly not enough. So Mr Scruffy's ignorance can be justified rule-wise, but story-wise it feels less consistent.

[thisisnotspam]

Belkar Bitterleaf is dead
Don't pretend you give a ****
You mother****ing hypocrites
Remember what you said he did

[Vendanna]

Belkar is alive!

and I'll tell you why. :3

that's the problem with humans, always thinking other races are the same as they are, so they assume the same methods of execution are valid. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0165.html)

Simple as that, belkars weight less than an human, he probably can use his cape as a parachute to reduce his falling speed and survive. (ofc, he will take a few rounds to reach rock bottom) and then he will need either to bring the attention of the mechane or go up the mountain.

[littlebum2002]

I agree on the rest of your post, but this here seems wrong to me. It was either implied or outright mentioned in the comic, that the Diva only judged Roy for his past adult life, making the case that she considered him LG based on his past actions and motivations.

If Roy completely screws up on the alignment scale between his resurrection and his eventual death, he will be judged again on the actions he took between then and now - no need to review his ENTIRE life again. The Diva mentioned that this would "get the paperwork out of the way". If Roy really slipped on the evil/chaos axis now, he runs danger to join a different afterlife, depending how grave his transgressions are.

This certainly makes a lot more sense. Objection withdrawn

[lurkmeister]

The last we saw Belkar, he was falling.

Ultimately this is a comic that runs on narrativium first and foremost, and in universes controlled by narrativium, nobody ever dies in a fall if it'd get in the way of a good story. What I'm saying is that we'll only know for sure if Belkar's dead if we see him lying somewhere with little X's in his eyes. Otherwise...we just don't know. And the update pacing has slowed down somewhat the past few strips, drawing the tension out even more...

Perhaps the weirdest most-out-of-left-field subversion available is that he didn't just die, he somehow got erased from existence. That is, he isn't ever mentioned anymore, period, because (from the others' point of view) he was never there in the first place.

[LuisDantas]

Not sure why so many people assume or want to believe that Belkar is not, in fact, dead.

There are some narrative possibilities open if he survives somehow. And many and IMO better ones if he does not.

[Bulldog Psion]

Not sure why so many people assume or want to believe that Belkar is not, in fact, dead.

There are some narrative possibilities open if he survives somehow. And many and IMO better ones if he does not.

Perhaps because it seems like a very anticlimactic way for a major protagonist to die?

And also because people are curious about what happened to him?

And because they're trying to figure out how the situation can be salvaged, since Roy can't finish it on his own seemingly, and Belkar popping in might provide a solution -- but he can't do that if, say, he's dead?

[Kildaren]

I have 2 theories myself:
1) Belkar gets some kickass evil afterlife and never wants to return to the living, even if resurrected. Then indeed he stays dead.

2) Belkar Bitterleaf's afterlife sucks so much, that he has a change of heart and character, and instead is resurrected as e.g. Belkar Sweetleaf, who has gained wisdom and "who will never again hurt another living being" as he once said once his wisdom was increased magically. Then the prophecy won't be affected.

[Vendanna]

... What I'm saying is that we'll only know for sure if Belkar's dead if we see him lying somewhere with little X's in his eyes. Otherwise...

We have seen the little bugger with X's in his eyes before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html) :smalltongue:

Still, at this point I'm in mode "Wait and see" and provisioning myself with keyboards with 49 f5 keys

[Bulldog Psion]

We have seen the little bugger with X's in his eyes before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html) :smalltongue:

Still, at this point I'm in mode "Wait and see" and provisioning myself with keyboards with 49 f5 keys

I recommend a titanium steel F5 key, personally. :smallbiggrin: It's served me well.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yet he doesn't go out of the story: maybe he takes part in the IFCC & Sabine scenes, even teaming up with the later in some lower-planes related plot. Given that Nale's dead, Sabine might want to enjoy some Sexy Shoeless God of War action.

Otherwise...we just don't know. And the update pacing has slowed down somewhat the past few strips, drawing the tension out even more...

The Robert Jordan school of drawing out tension, right?

[Nightcanon]

Not sure why so many people assume or want to believe that Belkar is not, in fact, dead.

There are some narrative possibilities open if he survives somehow. And many and IMO better ones if he does not.
For me, largely because, although OOTS is published retrospectively in book form, it is published primarily on an episodic basis on the web. It's now 18 strips since Belkar was thrown out the window, going back over 3 months. If Belkar is dead and out of the game, and we get a reveal to that effect at this stage, it's going to feel like an afterthought. If Belkar is dead, Durkula could have alluded to this at the start of his fight with Roy ("excellent: a chance to kill both my bodyguards in one day", or similar), or Roy could have brought the subject up ("what the Hel(l) have you done with Belkar!?"). Belkar, last seen falling from the roof with an expression of irritation on his face doesn't seem an appropriate end.
Options in which Belkar is dead but remains active in the story somehow require more speculation, and while I don't doubt that the Giant has the narrative skill to pull one off, I don't feel I have seen many plausible options posited in the forums.
Options seem to be:
- some sort of undead return: possible but requires a mechanism and we already have one undead party member
- ascent to godhood and return as the Sexy Shoeless God of War: amusing but where would he get his power from?
- some sort of afterlife escapade, possibly involving the IFCC (Belkar lands in Cedrik's in-tray and promptly kills him, taking his place and renewing his messing round with V?). Would seem to be heading in a different direction from what the comic is currently doing, and doesn't deal with the fact that from the point of view of the Order, Belkar would still be separated without closure on this. Plus, we've done the whole afterlife thing already, and there are other evil characters in place in the afterlife better placed to scheme from there.

[Peelee]

I recommend a titanium steel F5 key, personally. :smallbiggrin: It's served me well.


Psh. Tungsten carbide is the way to go, sir! Much harder than those sissy titanium alloys.

[Mandor]

I have 2 theories myself:
1) Belkar gets some kickass evil afterlife and never wants to return to the living, even if resurrected. Then indeed he stays dead.

2) Belkar Bitterleaf's afterlife sucks so much, that he has a change of heart and character, and instead is resurrected as e.g. Belkar Sweetleaf, who has gained wisdom and "who will never again hurt another living being" as he once said once his wisdom was increased magically. Then the prophecy won't be affected.

Not sure i can see #2. If it *truly* adjusted him as a person, maybe. But .... most of the time, if someone experiences terrible punishment, they stick to the straight and narrow after that, not because they have learned a lesson from it, but because they fear being punished again. And if the only reason someone decides to start acting morally is because they fear punishment... well... then they're not really reformed at all. Take away the fear and they would return exactly to the same behavior as before. They're just cowering before someone bigger and meaner than they, not truly choosing a better path because it's right.

[bfl]

Let's see - anti-life shell, dead Belkar...

Yep, Belkar's coming back undead. I'm going for revenant, since that doesn't require a necromancer to create, and it means that his reason for existence will be to take revenge on Durkula.

[alexandraerin]

For me, largely because, although OOTS is published retrospectively in book form, it is published primarily on an episodic basis on the web. It's now 18 strips since Belkar was thrown out the window, going back over 3 months. If Belkar is dead and out of the game, and we get a reveal to that effect at this stage, it's going to feel like an afterthought. If Belkar is dead, Durkula could have alluded to this at the start of his fight with Roy ("excellent: a chance to kill both my bodyguards in one day", or similar), or Roy could have brought the subject up ("what the Hel(l) have you done with Belkar!?").

(...snip...)



Just as a point of order, Durkula did taunt Roy about having (apparently) killed Belkar in strip 1009, when listing the litany of everyone Roy has failed to save: "there's me, and everyone Belkar killed before I threw him off the side of a mountain..."

This does not prove that Belkar is dead, but it strongly implies that Durkula expected that act to have ended Belkar's ability to kill people.

As for Belkar's final disposition, I would not be 100% sure about his destination if we hadn't seen the amulet burning him (and I kind of suspect that Rich threw that element into the story specifically to give us a visual cue that yes, despite his growth, he still registers as evil.)

Granted that if I thought that the chaotic evil afterlife overlords wouldn't love to get their hands on someone who's borderline, I might suspect that he'd be kicked out on a technicality.

[redzimmer]

Given the casual way V kept Bigby Hand-ing him onto the Mechane in previously panels; s/he probably just sighed, magicked Belkar aboard and is now enjoying the quietude of a magically-silenced halfling.

[M Placeholder]

Given the casual way V kept Bigby Hand-ing him onto the Mechane in previously panels; s/he probably just sighed, magicked Belkar aboard and is now enjoying the quietude of a magically-silenced halfling.

Would The Belkster not have tried writing down what was going on inside and warned that Durkula was up to no good, and not much neutral either? Actually, can Belkar even read or write?

[KorvinStarmast]

Would The Belkster not have tried writing down what was going on inside and warned that Durkula was up to no good, and not much neutral either? Actually, can Belkar even read or write?There was some graffiti that he left on a wall, but I can't seem to find the strip.

[Dr.Zero]

Let's see - anti-life shell, dead Belkar...

Yep, Belkar's coming back undead. I'm going for revenant, since that doesn't require a necromancer to create, and it means that his reason for existence will be to take revenge on Durkula.

A revenant Belkar could be epic.
I can already imagine the strip: zooming from the sky to Belkar on the ground in 2 or 3 frames. Close up on Belkar face and X_X eyes. And the next frame, his eyes reopen with a dark red light and with the raging expression he had while he was falling.
Pure awesomeness.

But it would have some problems:
1) We have already too many undead around: Xykon, Durkula, Durkula's thralls.
2) Revenants are bound to the destruction of their killers, and then they disappear. This means that very likely Belkar could not partecipate in the final battle (or he could, if it is going to be a royal rumble: OOTS vs Team Evil vs Vampires vs Tarquin&Friends).
3) My biggest problem with this theory is completely subjective: I always imagined revenants as angry, vengeful and we-are-serious-business spirit. Angry and vengeful is ok for Belkar. Serious no.

[War-Wren]

There was some graffiti that he left on a wall, but I can't seem to find the strip.

Well, there's this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html), and also this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html)(which is my personal favourite) "I eat you stinky roy!" "Lawful Stupid" :smallbiggrin:

[Dr.Zero]

Well, there's this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html), and also this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html)(which is my personal favourite) "I eat you stinky roy!" "Lawful Stupid" :smallbiggrin:

And of course this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html
"Come and get me Miko", "This way"

[War-Wren]

And of course this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html
"Come and get me Miko", "This way"

Oh yeah! Forgot about that one. I think from this, it indicates that he *can* read and write, but his penmanship is not the best... :smalltongue:

[Kantaki]

There (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html) is another example of Belkar writing something. Not a graffiti, but he defeated a enemy with it.:smallamused:

[Vendanna]

Would The Belkster not have tried writing down what was going on inside and warned that Durkula was up to no good, and not much neutral either? Actually, can Belkar even read or write?

First, noone on stories writes to warn about danger ever (it breaks the mood)

Second, Belkar can read and write perfectly (at least common and halfling) there are a few cases mentioned already in the thread, apart of knowing what a phamplet is (when he joined the barbarian guild), to read and write recipes as a cook is a must (its other set of skills), and when he asked on the empire of blood to roy to give him the prospect (evading local authorities, etc...)

Heck, he even asked the barbarian guildmaster if being a completly and you know what was a requisite to become a barbarian or just a side effect from taking the class :smallwink:

[littlebum2002]

First, noone on stories writes to warn about danger ever

I always thought the mysterious journal left by the dead guy warning of the evil that's coming is somewhat of a trope?

[KorvinStarmast]

And of course this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html
"Come and get me Miko", "This way"

That's the one that I was recalling ... and I had forgotten about the tavern advert. Heh, thanks for the memories (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html).

[M Placeholder]

First, noone on stories writes to warn about danger ever (it breaks the mood)

Second, Belkar can read and write perfectly (at least common and halfling) there are a few cases mentioned already in the thread, apart of knowing what a phamplet is (when he joined the barbarian guild), to read and write recipes as a cook is a must (its other set of skills), and when he asked on the empire of blood to roy to give him the prospect (evading local authorities, etc...)

Heck, he even asked the barbarian guildmaster if being a completly and you know what was a requisite to become a barbarian or just a side effect from taking the class :smallwink:

And also, the Explosive Runes. Lots of them. It slipped my mind yesterday, though I should have known better, after all the feat "Craft Disturbing Mental Image" would probably be best ultilized with writing once in a while.

[Vinyadan]

Belkar is gone, Stabby Belkary
Belkar is gone

Right down that Grand Rocky End
Nobody love like an Halfling-Man

[wesleytj]

Given the casual way V kept Bigby Hand-ing him onto the Mechane in previously panels; s/he probably just sighed, magicked Belkar aboard and is now enjoying the quietude of a magically-silenced halfling.

He's not magically silenced, for two reasons.

1-The spell was centered on Durkula, not Belkar. As soon as he left Durkula's spell radius, he would no longer be under the effects of the spell.

2-Durkula dismissed the spell immediately after throwing Belkar out the window anyway, in the next strip.

[martianmister]

We have seen the little bugger with X's in his eyes before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html) :smalltongue:

Not x, more like *.

[lurkmeister]

The Robert Jordan school of drawing out tension, right?
Nah, if he was going full Robert Jordan on us he'd draw it out until everybody forgot he existed and people stopped caring anymore. And he wouldn't do that, would he ... right?

Right?

Right?

goshdarn it

[Ruck]

I refuse to believe that Belkar's death would be treated so anti-climatically.

And, I don't mean being tossed out a window after a bout with Durkula, that is a champion way to go, I just mean without any immediate confirmation or anyone to witness it. That would be a disservice to our Sexy, Shoeless, God of War.

Also, I was always laboring under the assumption that Belkar would redeem himself in some small way before being offed, something that shows he really has made the move from CE to CN.

See, the thing is, I think he did redeem himself already.

While I do expect we will actually see some confirmation that Belkar is dead when we are meant to know he is dead for sure, thematically it makes sense here as part of his character arc / redemption: If Belkar is dead, then the Chaotic Evil killing machine has died trying to, when it comes down to it, put a stop to an Evil plan and save the world. If Belkar dies here, it means he gave his life for the greater good. That's redemption in my eyes.

[EmperorSarda]

See, the thing is, I think he did redeem himself already.

While I do expect we will actually see some confirmation that Belkar is dead when we are meant to know he is dead for sure, thematically it makes sense here as part of his character arc / redemption: If Belkar is dead, then the Chaotic Evil killing machine has died trying to, when it comes down to it, put a stop to an Evil plan and save the world. If Belkar dies here, it means he gave his life for the greater good. That's redemption in my eyes.

He's still chaotic evil though.

[Sybarith]

I get the feeling Belkar's gonna get his chance for redemption and the Chaotic Good afterlife, so I heavily doubt this is the end for him. If he'd already achieved it, then the ring wouldn't have damaged him.

[Ruck]

He's still chaotic evil though.

I mean, by what measure? His stated preferences for killing? The Protection from Evil charm that hurts him? I'm talking about whether his character finds redemption, not whether he will stop pinging a Detect Evil spell.

And I don't think there's any way you can say that, when it comes time to take the final measure of his life, the fact that he sacrificed said life for the greater good (and the greater Good) will not carry major weight.

edited to add: If it takes sacrificing his life for a good cause to change his alignment, then it follows that his alignment would not register as changed while he was still alive.

[Atomburster]

Can't the vampires vampirize Belkar?

It neatly ties up a great deal of things. Though Roy is royally screwed if that happens. Maybe.

[KorvinStarmast]

Has Rich clearly stated in any of his quotes his personal views on redemption? I find the threads with quotassium clunky to dig through.

Redemption is a standard plot device for good, fallen and bad characters. That puts Belkar is in a sweet spot for a plot driven piece of redemption. The catalyst for this is of course Mr Scruffy and the old man/mentor via dream. While I don't much care for cats, and a dog seems to me more like the empathy driver that would appeal to a ranger, Mr Scruffy works just fine. (And I note he is one shotting rats with calm precision in the current fight, 1014, so there's more to him than meets the eye).

With that in mind: Belkar's demise has been foretold but prophecies in OoTS are oblique, see the original foreshadowing/divination from Roy's dad about red and goat.

Belkar's demise likewise will have twists if ten years of past strip history are any indication.

I am not sure if Belkar is gonna be dead when we next see him. I sincerely hope that the defective tiger survives.

[Jasdoif]

Has Rich clearly stated in any of his quotes his personal views on redemption?If memory serves, the book commentary in War and XPs supports what Soon said about redemption in 464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Belkar as a vampire would probably not be a very interesting character. With a bit of luck the dark spirit could even turn out less evil than the original. Maybe the evil gods would be better off killing Belkar and sending his soul back to take possession of some other chump who got vampirized (okay, that's not an option). What would even be that first awful memory it gets shown? It might even undo some of his character development up until this point.

On the other hand, Belkar always liked a good anticlimax...

[KorvinStarmast]

If memory serves, the book commentary in War and XPs supports what Soon said about redemption in 464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). Thanks, that suffices for part of an answer: redemption and redemptive acts are special in nature.

As to the rest of it, some of that may be Blue Deity/Paladin/Pantheon specific, and I now need to figure out if Belkar even worships a deity. For some reason, I think he doesn't based on the Origin of the PC's book I got on pdf.

[Jasdoif]

Thanks, that suffices for part of an answer: redemption and redemptive acts are special in nature.

As to the rest of it, some of that may be Blue Deity/Paladin/Pantheon specific, and I now need to figure out if Belkar even worships a deity. For some reason, I think he doesn't based on the Origin of the PC's book I got on pdf.OK, found it in the book, opposite 423....He says there are two common falling-from-grace storylines: giving up and turning villain, or struggling hard and attaining redemption; frequently both, in that order. Miko died before she got an opportunity for either. It's important to consider what we do while we're doing it, because (as with Miko) there's no guarantee we'll be around long enough to correct anything we've done wrong.


I suppose it's not quite what you were looking for....

[KorvinStarmast]

He says there are two common falling-from-grace story lines: giving up and turning villain, or struggling hard and attaining redemption; frequently both, in that order. Miko died before she got an opportunity for either. It's important to consider what we do while we're doing it, because (as with Miko) there's no guarantee we'll be around long enough to correct anything we've done wrong.It suffices, if you heart isn't in it and you don't get squarely on the path to redemption, as in sincerity of intent, redemption remains a distant or even unachievable.

[hrak]

I get the feeling Belkar's gonna get his chance for redemption and the Chaotic Good afterlife, so I heavily doubt this is the end for him. If he'd already achieved it, then the ring wouldn't have damaged him.

As I stated in the OP, I agree that this would not be the final end for Belkar. My theory goes beyond the title of this tread.

[Prowl]

If you're going to get yourself killed, you couldn't pick a better spot than right outside a mass meeting of the highest-level clerics in the world.

Also I wouldn't put out of the realm of possibility Belkar ascending to minor diety status. As noted above, he is the sexy shoeless god of war... and that would fulfill the prophecy (gods don't need to breathe, do they?)

[Zalabim]

If we assume he has taken only one level of barbarian, he'd get anywhere between 1-12 HP for it. On average, about 6.

If we assume that he has 13 levels of ranger (putting him lower than the class and level geekery thread proposes) that's 12D8+8. On average, that's about 68. So we could reasonably expect him to have an HP total in the 70's.

We know he took a bit of damage from his incident with Durkula, and possibly some from his protective clasp. The maximum falling damage he can receive is 20D6. On the low end, that's 20 on top of what he took from Durkula. High end, 120. Average, around 70.

By the numbers, he's likely dead at the bottom of the ravine. Ironically anti-climatic for his brutish and in your face lifestyle.

We don't know his Constitution, but we do know he's Raging. So he has 12d8+1d12+8+28 HP (96.5) average with 10 Con base. Then he only takes one bite from the Dire Wolf form [1d8+10 according to the SRD] and a long fall [20d6 maximum] which averages 84.5. The second bite was a grapple, which prompts the muted comment before he was thrown out window. Assuming the sexy shoeless god of war has the worst Constitution in the history of barbarian multiclasses and is lower level than the rest of the party, he lives through the fall, drinks a healing potion, and lives when Rage ends.

By the numbers, while it's not impossible for the fall to deal enough damage to kill this paragon of martial excellence, there's only a 6.66% chance for the worst possible Belkar to die from that damage.

If Belkar died, it won't be numbers and game mechanics that killed him, but narrative. That's why no one believes he's dead.


The Robert Jordan school of drawing out tension, right?

That school just kills me.

[schmunzel]

I am not sure if Belkar is gonna be dead when we next see him. I sincerely hope that the defective tiger survives.


He's not defective!!!!

Just not a killing machine like the rest of that bunch.

sch

[Prowl]

Duh, Feather Fall.

I feel silly now. Don't you feel silly?

[halfeye]

Wrong!

Ten characters.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Feather Fall Item. So obvious, so why didn't I think of it?

Well, that vampire in front of him doesn't look like a push over, and the Belkster is currently unarmed. Or, is he?

Any pebbles on the mountainside?

[a1chemi]

I love how I was reading this thread, thinking how idiotic it was for people to think Rich would kill a major protagonist off panel, or after 15+ strips of him being missing, when this strip went up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html).

Now everyone can stop with the speculation, and maybe edit the title of the thread :-P

[Mad Humanist]

I love how I was reading this thread, thinking how idiotic it was for people to think Rich would kill a major protagonist off panel, or after 15+ strips of him being missing, when this strip went up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html).

Now everyone can stop with the speculation, and maybe edit the title of the thread :-P

No it will just set off the speculation that Belkar really is dead and this is Elan's daydream or something.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I wonder what kind of item it is, or if it's even really a feather fall item. There's a suspicious non-specificity there...

[Yajirobe]

I wonder what kind of item it is, or if it's even really a feather fall item. There's a suspicious non-specificity there...

Dude... That is listed on the DMG and is OGL'ed, so it is also on the d20srd.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm

Sometimes the simple answers are the best answers. Everyone was expecting Belkar to be saved by CE Eaglemen introducted to the story just to save him, or be Raised by <insert forgotten deity here> or some absurd shenanigans and we all forgot one of the most common and baseline magic items on the DMG.

[a1chemi]

I love how I was reading this thread, thinking how idiotic it was for people to think Rich would kill a major protagonist off panel, or after 15+ strips of him being missing, when this strip went up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html).

Now everyone can stop with the speculation, and maybe edit the title of the thread :-P

[Ruck]

If it takes sacrificing his life for a good cause to change his alignment, then it follows that his alignment would not register as changed while he was still alive.

Or, even better, he's not dead at all. Hooray. Go Belkar.

[theMycon]

Or, even better, he's not dead at all. Hooray. Go Belkar.

As of yet, we don't know he isn't merely bleeding out on the valley floor hallucinating. Or in (whichever afterlife he'd go to now) living out his own personal he(aven/ll). Have we ever known The Belkster to exhibit forethought or self-preservation instincts before?

I'm not buying this "Belkar isn't dead" theory yet.

[Peelee]

Have we ever known The Belkster to exhibit forethought or self-preservation instincts before?

Yes. When he bought the Protection from Evil clasp.

[Menarker]

Have we ever known The Belkster to exhibit forethought or self-preservation instincts before?




Yes. When he bought the Protection from Evil clasp.

And he has been known to demonstrate foresight via some of his schemes, although the running gag has always been that he never think them all the way through. Like his plan to get Miko to lose all of her paladin powers via slaying him in cold blood and then getting ressed by Durkon, only for his lack of knowledge on the requirements of diamonds for resurrection to be revealed to him after his life was saved by V and the plan was 'ruined'.

[Legato Endless]

As of yet, we don't know he isn't merely bleeding out on the valley floor hallucinating. Or in (whichever afterlife he'd go to now) living out his own personal he(aven/ll).

That's not really the Giant's style.


Have we ever known The Belkster to exhibit forethought or self-preservation instincts before?

Yes. Especially after his character development. He spared Crystal based on thinking out the situation for one thing.

[Reddish Mage]

I thought it was ridiculous that Belkar could be dead, see however,

Perhaps your just off by a couple of strips?

[Ruck]

That's not really the Giant's style.
Agreed. The Giant doesn't seem like a storyteller prone to tricking his readers. (That's what bothers me about some of the theories that get thrown around on the forum-- they would basically depend on the Giant saying "Ha! Everything you read for the last year was a lie!") He sets up his plot twists well in advance, and his strong sense of his characters firmly roots their actions in who they are, as opposed to "whatever the plot needs."

Even when something "tricky" happens to the characters (like the illusion in the Draketooth basement), the strips have clues for the reader to figure out what's really going on.

[ChillerInstinct]

...But really, at this point, unless Belkar bought some sort of provision after getting tossed from the Mechane twice, is there any foreshadowed way he could get out of this WITHOUT splatting at the bottom?

Well, I didn't flat out SAY he DID buy something to protect himself, but it's the thought that counts, right?

Considering Belkar really has no defenses against the other vampires aside from the Clasp, and he's in dire need of some healing, I think he has no choice but to cut his losses and climb back up to the Mechane (or jump to it if he still has that Ring of Jumping) and get the others. Elan can top him up and while it's possible no one will buy the "vampire who everything thinks I jumped overboard twice to frame threw me off a freaking mountain" story, it could very well give V a reason to second guess Blackwing's signals to hir...

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Dude... That is listed on the DMG and is OGL'ed, so it is also on the d20srd.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm

Sometimes the simple answers are the best answers. Everyone was expecting Belkar to be saved by CE Eaglemen introducted to the story just to save him, or be Raised by <insert forgotten deity here> or some absurd shenanigans and we all forgot one of the most common and baseline magic items on the DMG.

So, because there's a ring of feather fall there can't be any other items of feather fall or items with a similar effect and it's completely not suspicious that he doesn't say he bought a ring of feather fall but instead spends half a page specifically not saying it (just that it was something the man in the little shop between the hat markets sold to him or helped him acquire somehow)? To each his own, I'm waiting to see if there's another shoe that might drop at some point.

[Jasdoif]

I wonder what kind of item it is, or if it's even really a feather fall item. There's a suspicious non-specificity there...Feather fall doesn't just negate falling damage, it caps the rate of descent at 60ft/round, or 10ft/second. Non-specificity means there's no basis on which to (attempt to) convert travel time to mountain height....And since the relevant effect of the item to this strip is "Belkar didn't die from falling", specifics of how exactly the item functions wouldn't enhance the story here anyway.

[theMycon]

Yes. When he bought the Protection from Evil clasp.

Calling that "self preservation" is a real stretch, given it has only hurt him so far.
That was clearly just some really expensive masochism which also help him in hurting others- like the Miko plan mentioned above.


That's not really the Giant's style.
Which makes it even more unexpected, and thus a more likely twist. The whole comic up until now has just been fodder for this. Unless you're saying Rich isn't able of showing a long con?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Feather fall doesn't just negate falling damage, it caps the rate of descent at 60ft/round, or 10ft/second. Non-specificity means there's no basis on which to (attempt to) convert travel time to mountain height....And since the relevant effect of the item to this strip is "Belkar didn't die from falling", specifics of how exactly the item functions wouldn't enhance the story here anyway.

Except that he first explicitly mentions an item of feather fall, meaning we assume that's what he got, and then never actually says what he got. It wouldn't be hard to just assume a ring of feather fall. In fact, I highly doubt we're going to make it all the way through the comic without learning what that store keeper said, so we could just come back when that happened and start converting travel time to mountain height. Not that it would be very useful. We still have no idea how long it took Durkula to arrive in the voting chamber, while we do know that Belkar just arrived at the temple at the same time as Darth Gontor. But the most suspect thing is where he says "item". It could be a ring, sure, it could also be underwear for all we know. Next time Belkar offers to lend any item on him to anybody be very suspicious of what it might be able to do.

I know the forum is known for its crazy theories, but whenever the Giant uses half a page to spell out "I'm being suspicious" (like with Elan's secret plan in the Windy Canyon) he's usually being suspicious.

(Or, you know, maybe he got a potion and the surprise is that he'll get dropped again and does not have a plan anymore. I don't know...)

[Jasdoif]

I know the forum is known for its crazy theories, but whenever the Giant uses half a page to spell out "I'm being suspicious" (like with Elan's secret plan in the Windy Canyon) he's usually being suspicious.If that's what was happening here, instead of "Belkar intends to play mind games with Roy", you might have a stronger point. As for the flashback panel...maybe "Actually..." being short for expressing "Actually yes, I do have something fitting the very specific criteria you just mentioned, in fact!" isn't a particularly ubiquitous usage?

[Legato Endless]

Which makes it even more unexpected, and thus a more likely twist. The whole comic up until now has just been fodder for this. Unless you're saying Rich isn't able of showing a long con?

Heh, that's certainly possible. But assuming this isn't entirely tongue in cheek I think you'd need to lay out what exactly this tells us about Belkar. As a subversion of the typical grand rescue/reveal in the nick of time, it fits the Giant's humor to have Belkar pontificate about how his image control of being a badass matters to him when he's not going to get to do anything glamorous looking. He climbed up the mountain, and now he's going to fight an undead, and he's probably not going to get his big moment the way he wants it. That fits the character meta humor of the strip.

A dying hallucination seems kind of retrograde for a development if this is what we get to see Belkar thinking about. Maybe the undead is metaphor for his approaching death he can't escape? Maybe HPOH is a metaphor for his inability to truly escape the neuroses that dog him? Maybe it's really all of us jumping off that ship again and again no matter how much we try not to?

[Keltest]

Feather Fall or not, the Non-specificity argument still holds. If he says Ring of Feather Falling, people are going to examine it to heck and back, arguing about why it wouldn't work in the way it would need to work, or that Belkar couldn't use it because he already has two magic rings, or some other such nonsense.

[Peelee]

Calling that "self preservation" is a real stretch, given it has only hurt him so far.
That was clearly just some really expensive masochism which also help him in hurting others- like the Miko plan mentioned above.

Tell me, in what way would a ring of Protection from Evil help Belkar in hurting others?

Also, the effectiveness of an attempt has no bearing on the reasonng behind the attempt. That the clasp has not helped yet does not mean that he did not get it in an attempt at self-preservation.

[theMycon]

Heh, that's certainly possible. But assuming this isn't entirely tongue in cheek I think you'd need to lay out what exactly this tells us about Belkar. As a subversion of the typical grand rescue/reveal in the nick of time, it fits the Giant's humor to have Belkar pontificate about how his image control of being a badass matters to him when he's not going to get to do anything glamorous looking. He climbed up the mountain, and now he's going to fight an undead, and he's probably not going to get his big moment the way he wants it. That fits the character meta humor of the strip.

A dying hallucination seems kind of retrograde for a development if this is what we get to see Belkar thinking about. Maybe the undead is metaphor for his approaching death he can't escape? Maybe HPOH is a metaphor for his inability to truly escape the neuroses that dog him? Maybe it's really all of us jumping off that ship again and again no matter how much we try not to?

Precisely.


Tell me, in what way would a ring of Protection from Evil help Belkar in hurting others?
... Are you putting me on?

It lets him stab Durkula, even when Durkula doesn't want to be stabbed.
Are you assuming that Durkula isn't someone other than Belkar, or that Belkar doesn't want to hurt Durkula, or what?

[Lord Stoneheart]

Precisely.


... Are you putting me on?

It lets him stab Durkula, even when Durkula doesn't want to be stabbed.
Are you assuming that Durkula isn't someone other than Belkar, or that Belkar doesn't want to hurt Durkula, or what?

He can have bought the clasp for both self preservation, and hurting things? Seeing as he's right about Lurky plotting against The Order and Lurky's response to the discovery was to chuck him off a mountain? Hurting Lurky is self preservation in Belkar's viewpoint.

[Bulldog Psion]

He can have bought the clasp for both self preservation, and hurting things? Seeing as he's right about Lurky plotting against The Order and Lurky's response to the discovery was to chuck him off a mountain? Hurting Lurky is self preservation in Belkar's viewpoint.

And in the viewpoint of basically anyone who wants to live to see tomorrow. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

... Are you putting me on?

It lets him stab Durkula, even when Durkula doesn't want to be stabbed.
Are you assuming that Durkula isn't someone other than Belkar, or that Belkar doesn't want to hurt Durkula, or what?

...ok, I'm pretty sure you just don't know how Protection from Evil works.

What, precisely, stops Belkar from stabbing the vampire when he doesn't want to be stabbed, and in what way does a clasp of Protection from Evil help Belkar with the stabbing?
If you're answer is "immunity to mind control," then congratulations! You just pointed out to yourself how the clasp helps with self-preservation!

[rambaldi]

Feather Fall or not, the Non-specificity argument still holds. If he says Ring of Feather Falling, people are going to examine it to heck and back, arguing about why it wouldn't work in the way it would need to work, or that Belkar couldn't use it because he already has two magic rings, or some other such nonsense.

I wonder if it is gloves of feather-fall, I thought he looked a bit weird in the most recent strip and it is the new gloves. He is the only one that has gloves for the cold weather from panel 993 when they were getting ready to hop off The Mechane.

[Goosefarble]

...ok, I'm pretty sure you just don't know how Protection from Evil works.

What, precisely, stops Belkar from stabbing the vampire when he doesn't want to be stabbed, and in what way does a clasp of Protection from Evil help Belkar with the stabbing?
If you're answer is "immunity to mind control," then congratulations! You just pointed out to yourself how the clasp helps with self-preservation!

Because the item hurts evil people who touch it. Like Durkula. Like when he bit into him as the wolf.

[Keltest]

Because the item hurts evil people who touch it. Like Durkula. Like when he bit into him as the wolf.

I think any tactic that relies on being killed or successfully attacked in order to function needs reworking.

[Jay R]

I've always assumed that the prophecy will come true at the end of the final arc, so Belkar dies, but is present for the entire story.

[SpykeMH]

Belkar specifically stated to the shopkeep he wanted something to block mind control. That's the only thing he was shopping for. If I can block the mind control, great! If I can't, I should at least protect myself from getting killed by falling off the ship everytime I get mind controlled with featherfall. The protection from evil clasp was just the means to that end that was offered to him later.

That's self preservation right there.

[hrak]

Listen, I've seen many of you asserting how dumb it was to think Rich would kill a main character off panel. And I agree with you, if Belkar had perminantly died off panel it would have been lame way to fufill the proficy and out of character for the Giant. But, that was not the end of my theory. I theorized that Belkars death would be very brief, only long enough for us to get a small insight into the evil afterlife and for shock value for the readers, only to be resurrected by one of the many clerics near by. Maybe the eveil after life has an auditing of ones life choices, like Roy had to go through, and I thought this might be an opportunity for character growth.

Now yes, obviously my theory was wrong, and I've changed the title of the thread to express that indeed my theory was incorrect.

But I'd like to say that the feather fall magic item was something I had already disscuess the possiblity of, and dismissed because why would Belkar need to solve the problem of getting dominated to jump off the ship, if he had solved the problem of being dominated.

Once again, I was wrong. This happens, but that's okay. It was just theory.

[ti'esar]

I've always assumed that the prophecy will come true at the end of the final arc, so Belkar dies, but is present for the entire story.

Ditto. After all, I don't think the timeframe of the prophecy is at all in conflict with the likely time left in the story.

[Goosefarble]

I think any tactic that relies on being killed or successfully attacked in order to function needs reworking.

It always struck me as rather a last resort type deal, to be honest.

[theasl]

To each his own, I'm waiting to see if there's another shoe that might drop at some point.

Silly, Belkar has never worn shoes! :smalltongue:

[Vinyadan]

I think any tactic that relies on being killed or successfully attacked in order to function needs reworking.

Wasn't there a way to cast an epic spell dying and thus getting a bonus to the chances of the spell being successful? I suppose it's the kind of stuff to leave to NPCs. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, Belkar might have bought a Feather Falling Camping Set. You know, for those Feather Falling Stakes. They will give a whole new meaning to words like "Camping" and "Spawn". (OK, I'll stop).

[factotum]

In fact, I highly doubt we're going to make it all the way through the comic without learning what that store keeper said

I doubt it, because of one critical point: it doesn't actually matter. The Giant has effectively told us that Belkar survived the fall due to a magic item he possessed, and whether that item is a ring of Feather Fall or a modified Bag of Tricks that summons a giant eagle once a year that can carry him to safety makes no difference at all.

[hroþila]

I hate how this kind of thread fills up with opportunists with the benefit of hindsight everytime something happens in the comic that disproves a theory, claiming that it was obvious all along. No it wasn't.

That something turned out one way instead of the other doesn't reduce the merits of the original theory, if it had them in the first place, based on the info that was available at the time.

PS: I didn't believe that Belkar was dead myself, but that's beside the point.

[Zwiebelchen]

So a PC did not die a completely anticlimatic death?

What a surprise indeed!

[Nightcanon]

Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post

In fact, I highly doubt we're going to make it all the way through the comic without learning what that store keeper said

I doubt it, because of one critical point: it doesn't actually matter. The Giant has effectively told us that Belkar survived the fall due to a magic item he possessed, and whether that item is a ring of Feather Fall or a modified Bag of Tricks that summons a giant eagle once a year that can carry him to safety makes no difference at all.
No, no he's right. The only possible outcome for the rest of the comic is the big reveal when, as everything seems lost, Belkar goes nova and fixes literally everything in the space of 3 panels... Then we see the next panel in Belkar's interaction with the shopkeeper:
Actually...
..I do have this ring of three wishes. If you buy that, you could use it to wish that you were under the effects of a Featherfall spell if you ever needed to
/cutscene again, to Belkar on the Mechane wishing that for:

A featherfall effect if ever he needs it
Unlimited power, redemption and the chance to cause the deaths of all of Roy, the Oracle, Miko, and that stupid horse
That he, the Dark One and Banjo all get to join the Northern pantheon with full voting rights

The chances that the shopkeeper said 'actually, I do have one of those here somewhere' must be astronomically small. When was the last time you went into a shop and asked if they had something, and they simply said yes rather than starting a conversation on which the fate of the entire world hinged?

[KorvinStarmast]

When was the last time you went into a shop and asked if they had something, and they simply said yes rather than starting a conversation on which the fate of the entire world hinged? Hmm, good point, last time I went to Dillard's we got into discussing nuclear war rather than which tie would go with my suit.


Anyway, Belkar might have bought a Feather Falling Camping Set. You know, for those Feather Falling Stakes. They will give a whole new meaning to words like "Camping" and "Spawn". (OK, I'll stop). Please don't stop, that was fun.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

No, no he's right. The only possible outcome for the rest of the comic is the big reveal when, as everything seems lost, Belkar goes nova and fixes literally everything in the space of 3 panels... Then we see the next panel in Belkar's interaction with the shopkeeper:
Actually...
..I do have this ring of three wishes.

Well, that's a little extreme, but your sarcasm does neatly demonstrate my point. The item or whatever he got could have other uses. Or maybe the use we know it has can be used under unexpected circumstances. Say the HPOH tries to kill himself to keep them from reversing one of his spells or something (which literally has no chance of happening, but I'm using it as an example anyway) and then he lands softly because the napkin he still had around his neck from dinner was a napkin of featherfall. Chekhov's guns are everywhere.

[Jasdoif]

Well, that's a little extreme, but your sarcasm does neatly demonstrate my point. The item or whatever he got could have other uses. Or maybe the use we know it has can be used under unexpected circumstances.Wait. Your point is that the thing could have other uses...or could have the same use?

Well...OK, I agree; most things have uses. I wouldn't say I'm suspicious of everything that could have a use (or uses), though.

[Legato Endless]

The chances that the shopkeeper said 'actually, I do have one of those here somewhere' must be astronomically small. When was the last time you went into a shop and asked if they had something, and they simply said yes rather than starting a conversation on which the fate of the entire world hinged?

Never no sir. I mean, that would mean I lived in an incredibly mundane area of the world.


Well, that's a little extreme, but your sarcasm does neatly demonstrate my point. The item or whatever he got could have other uses. Or maybe the use we know it has can be used under unexpected circumstances. Say the HPOH tries to kill himself to keep them from reversing one of his spells or something (which literally has no chance of happening, but I'm using it as an example anyway) and then he lands softly because the napkin he still had around his neck from dinner was a napkin of featherfall. Chekhov's guns are everywhere.

Eh, sort of. This is a series that makes heavy use of that device, but this ignores that many things really were just fluff or one shots. More than just ignoring the mechanical arguments, in the spirit of Chekhov the Giant often doesn't add a detail the fandom expects to be answered in the narrative because it didn't ultimately matter to him. Moreover, I'm not sure why concealing the item's identity would really fit with his established pattern of how he does this. If this is a divergence, I wouldn't find it a particularly satisfying one.

[Peelee]

Except that he first explicitly mentions an item of feather fall, meaning we assume that's what he got, and then never actually says what he got. It wouldn't be hard to just assume a ring of feather fall. In fact, I highly doubt we're going to make it all the way through the comic without learning what that store keeper said, so we could just come back when that happened and start converting travel time to mountain height. Not that it would be very useful. We still have no idea how long it took Durkula to arrive in the voting chamber, while we do know that Belkar just arrived at the temple at the same time as Darth Gontor. But the most suspect thing is where he says "item". It could be a ring, sure, it could also be underwear for all we know.


Who cares? I sure don't.

Imean, it's not a direct response to your specific issue, but the Giant has said that he deliberately avoids calling out specifics when he doesn't need to. There's better quotes for it, I'm sure; I just grabbed the first quote I could find on the topic, really. Point is, unless it matters for the story, there's no reason for him to lock it down except for readers' idle curiosity, which I believe he does not have a keen interest in at the moment.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

As long as you'll all remember to link here and give me credit about one half to one book from now, you can claim this is impossible and it's not suspicious that the shopkeeper didn't just say "Yes I have one of those" all you like. :smallwink:

[Jasdoif]

As long as you'll all remember to link here and give me credit about one half to one book from now, you can claim this is impossible and it's not suspicious that the shopkeeper didn't just say "Yes I have one of those" all you like. :smallwink:There you go again, jumping to conclusions in your attempt to tie two separate events together :smalltongue: There being no cause for suspicion does not outright negate the possibility. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and such.

[jere7my]

As long as you'll all remember to link here and give me credit about one half to one book from now, you can claim this is impossible and it's not suspicious that the shopkeeper didn't just say "Yes I have one of those" all you like. :smallwink:

It's not suspicious. It's a timeworn gag. "You didn't sell my husband any chickens, did you?" "Well, actually..." [Cut to a man being chased by angry chickens]

[Legato Endless]

As long as you'll all remember to link here and give me credit about one half to one book from now, you can claim this is impossible and it's not suspicious that the shopkeeper didn't just say "Yes I have one of those" all you like. :smallwink:

That's fair. Done.

[Nightcanon]

Well, that's a little extreme, but your sarcasm does neatly demonstrate my point. The item or whatever he got could have other uses. Or maybe the use we know it has can be used under unexpected circumstances. Say the HPOH tries to kill himself to keep them from reversing one of his spells or something (which literally has no chance of happening, but I'm using it as an example anyway) and then he lands softly because the napkin he still had around his neck from dinner was a napkin of featherfall. Chekhov's guns are everywhere.
Apologies for the sarcasm (it's been a trying few months and this forum is one of the few places I can unwind). I just can't interpret that 'actually...' as anything other than 'actually, yes I do', and I'm not sure why you are so keen to see it as such a crucial point. As far as I'm concerned Belkar enquired about the possibility of acquiring some sort of featherfall item and was sold one, which explains how he survived being thrown off the temple by Durkula. Any further plot resolution coming from this is going to need much more explanation, or it would be as lame as a flashback to Roy popping back to the polearm emporium and asking if they had any Red 'I WIN' buttons of Undead Bane, and being told 'sure, we had a big bulk order in last week and they're currently on buy one, get one free because we can't shift them'.
If you're right about this, kudos to you in advance.
Edited to add: Regarding Chekhov's guns, someone made the point somewhere an often-missed point about Chekhov's gun is that a gun is an intrinsically dramatic object. A gun in a scene might be destined to go off later in the play, but it doesn't follow that the presence of a pair of trousers means someone is going to fall downstairs and break their neck trying to put them on.

[Onyavar]

Hey, you retconned the thread name! This is not the thread I signed on for!

[littlebum2002]

Well, that's a little extreme, but your sarcasm does neatly demonstrate my point. The item or whatever he got could have other uses. Or maybe the use we know it has can be used under unexpected circumstances. Say the HPOH tries to kill himself to keep them from reversing one of his spells or something (which literally has no chance of happening, but I'm using it as an example anyway) and then he lands softly because the napkin he still had around his neck from dinner was a napkin of featherfall. Chekhov's guns are everywhere.

SO basically what you're saying is that Rich will use the EXACT same gag twice (Belkar does something we thought impossible, and then we flash back to his conversation with the EXACT SAME shopkeeper to find out how he accomplished this feat.)

While the idea of the exact same thing happening in the exact same way twice makes me giddy with excitement, I'll have to go out on a limb and predict this isn't going to happen.

Of course, it's a possibility, but it violates Occams Razor. The most simple explanation is the most probable one. And the shopkeeper saying "actually, I DO have an item of feather fall" is several times more simple than him saying "Actually, I have this item which not only lets you feather fall but also has some totally unrelated use which you will undoubtedly find useful later in the story". It's also several times less boring, because, again, who (besides you) wants to see the exact same thing happen twice?



Also this:

It's not suspicious. It's a timeworn gag. "You didn't sell my husband any chickens, did you?" "Well, actually..." [Cut to a man being chased by angry chickens]

It's not suspicious, its a gag. And a fairly common one at that. Common enough to have its own trope page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlashbackCut), at least. And if you're not a fan of this gag, for the love of gods don't watch Family Guy

[Peelee]

It's not suspicious, its a gag. And a fairly common one at that. Common enough to have its own trope page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlashbackCut), at least. And if you're not a fan of this gag, for the love of gods don't watch Family Guy

I'd recommend not watching Family Guy of you're a fan of humour in general.

[littlebum2002]

I'd recommend not watching Family Guy of you're a fan of humour in general.

Unless you're a manatee

[Havelocke]

If this hypothesis has been mentioned I apologize. What the oracle said is that he would draw his last breath correct? What if the poor Belkster gets turned to stone? They are stone priests are they not? Being turned to stone is not necessary a perma-death thing, it could be reversed (or is this no longer correct? I am thinking Basilisk and Medusa here). He would not be undead, but he would not be alive either. Thoughts?

[ti'esar]

Last breath ever. Getting turned into stone wouldn't count if it got reversed sometime later.

And the Creed of the Stone are 'stone priests' in that they worship (or, it seems increasingly likely, worshiped) the non-personified concept of Earth. That doesn't give them petrification powers - especially this guy, who was may well have been a guard attached to the Creed and not an actual divine caster.

[Havelocke]

okay, I agree with that, so last breath ever, maybe he will be polymorphed into a fish or plant...

[Lvl 2 Expert]

It also has to be something that can't eat birthday cake.

[hrak]

Hey, you retconned the thread name! This is not the thread I signed on for!

Yes I did. I am willing to accept that my theory of Belkar's brief death at the side of the road only to be rezzed by a passing cleric was incorrect. I dont believe it to be a retcon, considering I admit I am wrong.

{scrubbed}

[theasl]

Yes I did. I am willing to accept that my theory of Belkar's brief death at the side of the road only to be rezzed by a passing cleric was incorrect. I dont believe it to be a retcon, considering I admit I am wrong.

{scrubbed}

(self-scrubbed)

[Jasdoif]

okay, I agree with that, so last breath ever, maybe he will be polymorphed into a fish or plant...
It also has to be something that can't eat birthday cake.Indeed. I was polymorphed into a plant and I can still eat birthday cake.

[brian 333]

It could be funny, though!

edit: ninja'd by a banana.

[hrak]

DUHHH why would Rich ever kill a main character so anti climatically and off panel! THATS A HORRIBLE WAY TO FULFILL THE PROPHECY! TOLD YA SOOO!

:smallwink:


:smallbiggrin: I was wondering if some one would do exactly this!

[KorvinStarmast]

Apologies for the sarcasm

Never apologize for the sarcasm, it's a sign of weakness.
(slight misquote of John Wayne, She Wore A Yellow Ribbon)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwf73rKS7c0

[Vinyadan]

Indeed. I was polymorphed into a plant and I can still eat birthday cake.

I was polymorphed into a plant and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.

[Zwiebelchen]

Unless you're a manatee
Or a homeless gay, black, jewish, disabled, republican asian (wow, I guess that combination is actually possible...).

[Bulldog Psion]

Or a homeless gay, black, jewish, disabled, republican asian (wow, I guess that combination is actually possible...).

It's possible, but the amount of work it takes to set it up is exhausting even to contemplate.

Anyway, I briefly toyed with the idea that Belkar was dead myself. Though I thought it was most probable he was unconscious.

I'm still rather surprised that it took him this long to get back, though.

[brian 333]

Not a whole lot of time has passed, actually. A couple of turns to create vampire minions, and a combat scene with Roy don't really take that long. If we assume the events on the Mechane were simultaneous, we have Belkar arriving just outside the temple as Roy stands on top of the anti-life sphere jabbing downward with his pointy stick.

[137beth]

Hey, you retconned the thread name! This is not the thread I signed on for!

*waves Jedi hand*
These are not the posts you are looking for.

[UrielAwakened]

Sweet title edit bro.

[gken1]

My fav is still alive!

[PoeticDwarf]

I refuse to believe that Belkar's death would be treated so anti-climatically.

And, I don't mean being tossed out a window after a bout with Durkula, that is a champion way to go, I just mean without any immediate confirmation or anyone to witness it. That would be a disservice to our Sexy, Shoeless, God of War.

Also, I was always laboring under the assumption that Belkar would redeem himself in some small way before being offed, something that shows he really has made the move from CE to CN.

Don't forget he is also the Sexy, Shoeless, God of cooking !