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TO_Incognito
2007-06-02, 10:04 AM
Later in the summer, I will be running a short, extremely informal campaign for my older brother and several friends with whom I have played before. Each of them has played before, but none has an extremely solid grasp of game mechanics and character options yet. As a result, I am building their characters for them, edited by them as they please. The game will begin at level 8 with gestalt characters (I regret both the starting level and the decision to go gestalt, but I had already promised them both). I am using 28 point buy.

The problem character is my brother's, a character slated to be a pure melee combatant capable of keeping up with the rest of the party. I have as of yet not succeeded in creating a pure melee gestalt mechanically powerful and smooth enough to satisfy myself. I do not, unfortunately, have access to the Book of Nine Swords. I do have access to core and SRD, the Player's Handbook II, any free exerpts provided by Wizards on their website, and Rich Burlew's homebrew. I also have access to the Warcraft Roleplaying Game and the Planar Handbook, but those are almost worthless and extremely specialized, respectively.

Current Party (Sans my brother's character)
Conjurer/Beguiler
Cloistered Cleric/Druid
Serpent Totem Barbarian/Rogue
One additional undecided character

My original plan for this character involved gestalting some melee class with Rich's Champion, creating a character with two sets of feats and a whole mess of hit points, but I was unable to effectively synergize with anything but a Paladin, and even then, I ran into trouble with feat selection and weapon loads. So, can anyone here help me build a very mechanically effective pure melee gestalt from the materials I have? Extra utility, like better-than-average skill points, is welcome, but the character must be first-and-foremost a melee combatant.

Thanks for the help!

open_source.exe
2007-06-02, 10:07 AM
Would you consider a psychic warrior/fighter?

Whatever you do, be sure to use a spiked chain.

Human Gestalt Psywarrior/Fighter 8

Str-16
Dex-10
Con-13
Wis-16
Int-13
Cha-8

Feats:

Fighter:
1st)Exotic Weapon prof.- Spiked Chain
2nd)Combat Expertise
4th)Improved Trip
6th)Improved Disarm
8th)Combat Reflexes

Psy Warrior:
1st)Psychic Weapon
2nd)Narrow Mind
5th)Psionic Meditation
8th)Wounding Attack

Normally Gained Feats:
Human) Skill Focus (Concentration)
1st)Psionic Body
3rd)Expanded Knowledge
6th)Expanded Knowledge


Powers:
Metaphysical Weapon
Biofeedback
Expansion
Prevenom Weapon
Body Adjustment
Dissolving Weapon
Dimension Swap
Vampiric Blade
Dimension Slide
Mental Barrier

Power Points: 31

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-02, 10:19 AM
Psychic Warrior//Druid would be better than Psychic Warrior//Fighter.

Wild shape into bear, manifest yourself really big claws and teeth, further augument yourself and your weapons if desired, then get to work. Spellcasting and manifesting are still available when desired, you have plenty of feats, and have the saves that matter. Only thing missing is full BAB, but wildshaping into bear and using magic/powers to enhance yourself makes up for that.

There's probably something better, but this is solid enough. Horrible skill points unfortunately, but you do get full casting (save the manifesting for direct combat boosting).

Yeti
2007-06-02, 10:21 AM
What I would honestly do is make a Rogue/Pally and focus on flanking with the Barb.

DreadArchon
2007-06-02, 10:24 AM
Might not be all that optimal, but have you considered a Druid/Duskblade? There's just something that appeals to me about a Dire Bear with Fighter BAB who makes a full attack action and discharges a Finger of Death with each hit (though that's not until level 13).

I suppose you'd have some MAD between Int and Wis, though not terrible, and as a Druid you could more or less ignore your physical stats.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-02, 11:30 AM
A Cleric//Druid would make a very crazy gish if focus on the Cleric's self-buff spells then Wild Shape into something physically powerful and/or with multiple attacks per round.

And DreadArchon: Better idea: Duskblade//Artificer. Make a pair of Spellstoring Shortswords. Pick up the Enervating Spell feat and Arcane Thesis: Vampiric Touch. Discharge four Vampiric Touches a round at a maximum of 10d6+150% versus living targets, which are the only thing that matters to Vampiric Touch.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 11:33 AM
Serpent Totem Barbarian/Rogue
A dex based fighter//rogue is a much better combo than a strength based barbarian//rogue. Barbarian gets you MAD (strength based rather than dex based), it loses you the ability to use one of your best skills in combat (UMD), it makes you hurt for feats even though you are playing gestalt (you still need the TWF tree) and you have classes on both side of the gestalt which with the books available you can't really PrC out of. Serpent totem barbarian also gives some god awful replacements for standard barbarian abilities (I know it avoids overlap with rogue, but regardless ... they are awful, I'd almost rather have +10 feet movement than the whole lot of them).

Anyway, for the melee build :

Wilder 8//paladin 3/fighter 2/warmind 3

The wilder's extremely limited number of powers known makes the character quite easy to play and won't detract much from it's melee focus (unlike say druid or cleric). It will also give you plenty of power points to use on stuff like psionic lion's charge, hustle etc etc. He also has good charisma synergy (gives him PP, saves and touch AC).

I'd take expanded knowledge psionic lion's charge, since it's one of the most useful melee powers. Also consider getting a third eye of powerthieve or expanded knowledge of thieving mindlink or metaconcert so he can use his warmind powers with his wilder manifester level.

Gralamin
2007-06-02, 12:11 PM
Warblade/Psychic Warrior
Warblade/Swordsage

Both work extremely well, even without Prestige Classes.
The second also requires little buff time.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 12:15 PM
No ToB ...

Gralamin
2007-06-02, 12:17 PM
Oops sorry, Didn't see that.

I then Recommend Druid/Cleric for the quick and easy, or Pinky's Brain solution.

Jack Mann
2007-06-02, 12:27 PM
Duskblade//Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) isn't bad. There's a bit of MAD between strength, intelligence, and wisdom, but you've got access to a lot of good physical buffs, cast in medium armor, and channel all of your touch spells through your melee attacks. Nothing like hitting someone with your sword and sending them to the nine hells, or the negative energy plane, or wherever your fancy strikes you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-02, 12:50 PM
Well, that Barbarian Rogue that is already in the party pretty much the nastiest melee gestalt I've seen in a while. D12 hit die, 8+int skill points, all the nasty sneakiness of a Rogue with Evasion, all the obscene DPS output of a Barbarian...

However, here's something a little... different.

Paladin//Monk. Sure, it requires LG alignment, has insane MAD (like many Gestalt builds), and the RP aspects are going to be difficult, but if you want a Mr. NO... this is it. His saves are going to be insane, full BAB, all the agility of a Monk, D10 hit die of the Pally, and some fairly obnoxious damage output if you do it right.

or...

Rogue1/Fighter4/Horizion Walker6/Tempest (or Dervish if you can find it)//Ranger

Here's the layout on this one, because it's a bit complicated. The ranger side keeps going Ranger. They do get some nifty abilities all by themselves, so that's the side we're not going to be PrCing with. On the other side, a one level dip in Rogue gives you Trapfinding, 8+int skills at 1st level when it is quadded, and +1d6 sneak attack. Trapfinding is going to be important, because this will be your out of combat primary goal, to be the Trapfinder. You don't need a second level in Rogue, though, because Ranger gets Evasion too. Go Fighter for the extra feats. On the Ranger side, you're going to go TWF. So the Fighter's bonus feats can be things like Weapon Focus: Scim, OTWF, and Weapon Specialization: Scim, duo wielding Scimitars. Reason for Scimitars? Dervish. More on that later. Horizion Walker 6 gives you some neat abilities. 1-5 you're stuck with the Terrain Masteries. Grab Desert to be immune to Fatigue, and Underground for Darkvision, then three more that boost skills you're wanting to boost. At level 6, however, you get a Planar Mastery. Grab Shifting. Congratulations, you can DimDoor every 1d4 rounds, talk about maneuverability. And now... if you can find it... Dervish. This is a TWF build's ultimate PrC.

If psionics are allowed and he wants to deal with them:

Barbarian//PsiWar/Slayer

This one isn't too difficult, it's a HULK SMASH build. You're getting D12 hit die, full BAB, and a bunch of fun abilities from Barbarian, so we let him keep going up. Greater Rage and Tireless Rage in particular are things we're going to get from him later on. PsiWar has some bonus feats that will be handy. Slayer is a psychic PrC which only looses a single level of manifesting to get an immunity to mind affecting things.

Here's the list of feats you want:

EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Dodge, Karmic Strike, and Combat Reflexes. Splash a couple levels of Fighter if you need more feats.

Powers you want to manifest: Expansion and Psionic Lion's Charge

Tactic: Expansion yourself, psionic lion's pounce to charge into the middle of the fray, raging, then use Power Attack to drop ALL your BAB into damage and use Shock Trooper to translate that into an AC penalty instead. Even at 1st level, you're looking at dealing upwards of 30 damage a hit consistantly. At 20th level, if you're not doing at least 150 damage a hit consistantly, there's something very wrong. Furthermore, nothing is going to be able to do anything within 20' of you without getting shut down.

First, you attack your primary target, with full BAB into PA into AC penalty yadda yadda. Your attack is a TRIP. But why? Because with Improved Trip, you can knock him prone, then get a FREE attack. Being prone means, among other things, a -4 AC against melee attacks, it's difficult to make attacks against you, and standing up provokes an AoO. Do this to as many bad guys in the area as possible. So they charge past you... wait, that's an AoO, which you use to trip and smack. Or they try to cast within 20' of you... wait, that's an AoO... trip and smack. Or they try to do... well... pretty much anything that would hurt your party. Trip and smack.

Sutremaine
2007-06-02, 01:02 PM
There's just something that appeals to me about a Dire Bear with Fighter BAB who makes a full attack action and discharges a Finger of Death with each hit (though that's not until level 13).
Duskblades channel touch spells. Ranged spells use the target's touch AC, but are not touch spells. Even if your DM did allow channeling of any spell with an attack roll, FoD is close-range. You'd also hove to be fighting three enemies to be discharging a spell with each hit.

TO_Incognito
2007-06-02, 01:03 PM
A dex based fighter//rogue is a much better combo than a strength based barbarian//rogue. Barbarian gets you MAD (strength based rather than dex based), it loses you the ability to use one of your best skills in combat (UMD), it makes you hurt for feats even though you are playing gestalt (you still need the TWF tree) and you have classes on both side of the gestalt which with the books available you can't really PrC out of. Serpent totem barbarian also gives some god awful replacements for standard barbarian abilities (I know it avoids overlap with rogue, but regardless ... they are awful, I'd almost rather have +10 feet movement than the whole lot of them).

In particular, because of the simplicity of this campaign and the availability of casters, UMD use won't be much of an issue. Along the same lines, this particular campaign will be short enough that ability to PrC is a non-issue (it is unlikely to progress past level 10 or 11). Also, I'm not sure why you aren't fond of Serpent Barbarians. It nets you Improved Initiative, useful for both Rogue and front-line-fighter archetypes, Improved Grapple without having to spend a feat on Improved Unarmed Strike, a Move Silently bonus useful for Rogues archetypes, and a Fort bonus vs. poisons useful for Rogues and front-line fighters. What's not to like? Anyhow, if the player prefers to stick with Barbarian, which Totem might you recommend to best take advantage of dropping Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Still, you're certainly right about the MAD and the help from TWF. I'll see what I can do with a Fighter/Rogue.


Thank you for the suggestions, everyone!

TO_Incognito
2007-06-02, 01:04 PM
Gah; forum-lag style double post. Sorry!

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 01:08 PM
It's easy to get all good saves in gestalt because you get the best of both your classes. Monk is bad in non gestalt, it's worse in gestalt since one of it's greatest advantages is so easy to come buy.

As for dimension door every 1d4 rounds at 11th level, that might be good in core ... but you have to give up a lot to get there, when you bring psionics into the mix it's much easier to just go psychic warrior which gets much better maneuverability options (not only dimension door, also dimension slide, dimension swap and hustle). Even without psionics I'd much rather make a gish in gestalt than put levels into horizon walker.

Barbarian//psionic is interesting if you can get a good barbarian PrC such as FB. Without that the boosts you can get from rage are pretty much a wash against the drop in manifester level you get from having to use schism to even be able to manifest while raging (not to mention that manifesting it takes a round of buffing, not doing it isn't really an option either ... giving up your ability to manifest is a huge deal).

melchizedek
2007-06-02, 01:25 PM
This character wouldn't be fully optimized, but it would be interesting to see a Paladin//Knight. It would give you a lot of great abilities. The MAD isn't much worse than a paladin. You gain the benefits of a d12 HD. You get too good saves, and full BAB. As I said, it wouldn't be very optimized, but it would be pretty cool.

Talya
2007-06-02, 01:31 PM
Without TOB...hmm. My perfect Melee gestalt would be:

Scout 20//Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Tempest 3.

JaronK
2007-06-02, 01:33 PM
If you want raw melee power, few things in Gestalt can match the raw power of the War Hulk. Consider a dwarf with Enlarge Person (Permanent), which costs money but can be bought. Give him as much War Hulk as you can on one side... maybe Barbarian/Warhulk//Fighter. Take the Lion Totem barbarian substitution from Complete Champion and go nuts.

That said, get ToB. It's by far the best book out there for melees, especially in terms of making melees actually fun, and not just "I charge, I trip, I charge, I trip, it's flying? Oh crap."

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-02, 01:34 PM
It's easy to get all good saves in gestalt because you get the best of both your classes. Monk is bad in non gestalt, it's worse in gestalt since one of it's greatest advantages is so easy to come buy.
Not really. Monk actually is more useful in Gestalt than as a stand alone, due to some other abilities it gives. Furthermore, you can PrC with Paladin and keep all your Monkley goodness while still maintaining a full BAB, Cha to all saves, all good saves, evasion/improved evasion, and monk unarmed damage (which can be even better with a Monk's Belt and the right feat)


As for dimension door every 1d4 rounds at 11th level, that might be good in core ... but you have to give up a lot to get there, when you bring psionics into the mix it's much easier to just go psychic warrior which gets much better maneuverability options (not only dimension door, also dimension slide, dimension swap and hustle). Even without psionics I'd much rather make a gish in gestalt than put levels into horizon walker.

You don't actually have to give up any Ranger progression, as it's all on your other side. Darkvision and Immunity to Fatigue are big. Dip a level of Rogue for Trapfinding and skills, then Fighter for some feats.


Barbarian//psionic is interesting if you can get a good barbarian PrC such as FB. Without that the boosts you can get from rage are pretty much a wash against the drop in manifester level you get from having to use schism to even be able to manifest while raging (not to mention that manifesting it takes a round of buffing, not doing it isn't really an option either ... giving up your ability to manifest is a huge deal).

Nah, you got that backwards. Re-read the limitations on Gestalt. You can be Class//Prc, or Prc//Class, but you can't be PrC//PrC at any given level. So you can't go FB (which is insane) and go Slayer (which is much better). FB will destroy the party with this build, as Slayer makes you completely immune to mind-affecting abilities, which means they no longer have a way of keeping you from destroying the whole party if you can't stop raging. I'd much rather have all the immunities Slayer gives me than the TPK ability of the FB. Besides, Barbarian is one of the few core classes which are worth going all 20 levels. This build simply lets you do it.

Talya
2007-06-02, 01:36 PM
Although honestly, even using TOB, it's hard to match my build above... a dex build that can get up to 14 attacks in a round round at 8d6+2+int+str each while taking a full 50' movement without using something corny like Thri-kreen, with armor class to spare...and a full 8+int skills per level, 17d10+3d8 hit dice, and some great base saving throws...

DreadArchon
2007-06-02, 01:42 PM
Duskblades channel touch spells. ... You'd also hove to be fighting three enemies to be discharging a spell with each hit.
Sorry, confused it with Slay Living. And, of course, you're right on the second point.

But if not going to level 13, that part matters very little anyway. Still, Duskblades are nice to mix in with other casters (Archivist is a good touch, since you don't need Wis unless you really want a ton of divine spells). Both Quick Cast and Channel Spell assume that you won't be getting full progression in another casting class at the same time, which, naturally, is wrong in gestalt.

Edit: Ah, but Talya, he's only going to about level 11, not 20.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-02, 01:43 PM
Although honestly, even using TOB, it's hard to match my build above... a dex build that can get up to 14 attacks in a round round at 8d6+2+int+str each while taking a full 50' movement without using something corny like Thri-kreen, with armor class to spare...and a full 8+int skills per level, 17d10+3d8 hit dice.

How about as many attacks doing 8d8+150ish like my Barb//PsiWar/Slayer build? Plus the build I suggested is massive battlefield control, as everything in 20' of him that provokes an AoO goes prone. He's got so many bonuses (by 20th level, he's got Huge size, and with the right race can even be considered to be Gargantuan, and his Str mod is going to be insane) that there's no way anything can avoid being tripped, not even the Tarrasque. And I did it straight from the SRD (other than Shock Trooper and Leap Attack feats).

Talya
2007-06-02, 01:45 PM
As soon as you throw in psionics, it ceases to really be a pure melee build, though. Besides, is that build able to do it while moving? Dervish = Happy Talya.

Bleh. I hate the psionic system in d20 anyway... the moment you start using psionic powers or magic in melee, it's pure cheese. You're not a melee fighter if you buff yourself up with psionics or magic first, any more than a wizard using Tenser's Transformation is.

(Edit: I really can't consider any build that isn't anything but standard medium or small humanoid without any spells, psionics or other similar "Supernatural" seeming abilities as a "melee build." If you somehow grow to gargantuan size, it becomes a cheese build!)

Illiterate Scribe
2007-06-02, 01:51 PM
Just remember - with the warblade free excerpt from the Wizards website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2), and the complete maneuvers (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tob_all.zip), you pretty much have the warblade - it, as has been mentioned above, gestalts awesomely with psion.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 01:53 PM
Nah, you got that backwards. Re-read the limitations on Gestalt. You can be Class//Prc, or Prc//Class, but you can't be PrC//PrC at any given level. So you can't go FB (which is insane) and go Slayer (which is much better).
Especially if slayer is "only" improving PW manifestation it's just not that good. Apart from increased manifesting it gets you Permanent mindblank and full BAB. The former is nice, but full BAB like all good saves is just not that relevant in gestalt.

Slayer is good though, that wasn't really my beef ... the bigger problem is what barbarian gets you though. It costs you either your manifestation (crippling) or a round of buffing (very painful for a melee based build) and -6 to your manifester level (also painful). It's just not worth it for the bonuses which rage provides, I'd even rather have fighter bonus feats than deal with all that.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 02:01 PM
As soon as you throw in psionics, it ceases to really be a pure melee build
It's no longer a pure melee build, but it is a better melee build. How can you be perfect at something if you suck at it?

ToB evens the odds, without ToB you are stuck with stuff like dervishes and frenzied berserkers for good pure melee builds ... none of those good melee classes are available given the sources, so we move over to the next best thing. Gishes.

TO_Incognito
2007-06-02, 02:01 PM
Just remember - with the warblade free excerpt from the Wizards website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...60802a&page=2), and the complete maneuvers (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/tob_all.zip), you pretty much have the warblade - it, as has been mentioned above, gestalts awesomely with psion.

Do I have access to every maneuver in ToB without buying the book? I was under the impression that I only had the Wablade and the Iron Heart excerpt. That complete maneuvers link doesn't work for me :frown: . Thanks for the thought, though; I'll see if I can get it.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 02:05 PM
He included a ")" in the link, the second URL works fine if you edit it. The excerpt should be easy enough to find.

It's pretty cool, they are the cue cards for all the maneuvers ... which are the complete description of them. Didn't even know they existed for free, thanks illiterate scribe.

melchizedek
2007-06-02, 02:06 PM
The link has an extra ) at the end of it. If you get rid of that, it should work.

TO_Incognito
2007-06-02, 02:20 PM
Thanks to you two; I have it now.

JaronK
2007-06-02, 02:24 PM
Ah, if you can be a Warblade, go nuts. Warblade 8//Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue 2/War Hulk 3 with an Enlarge Personed Dwarf or Human. Be the smartest hulking brute around!

JaronK

Corolinth
2007-06-02, 02:35 PM
Go fighter/fighter. Take both sides of fighter all the way to 20.

JaronK
2007-06-02, 02:55 PM
Go fighter/fighter. Take both sides of fighter all the way to 20.


I'm going to hope this was intended as a joke...

JaronK

TO_Incognito
2007-06-02, 03:18 PM
Go fighter/fighter. Take both sides of fighter all the way to 20.

Or, for an almost parallel level of effectiveness, I could play a Monk/Spellthief with 6 Wisdom.

:smallconfused: :smallsmile:

ocato
2007-06-02, 03:20 PM
I would consider something along the lines of a super defender and a super attacker. Like, Knight/Dwarven Defender (I don't have the DD prereqs on hand, I assume that's applicable) or a paladin/Dwarven Defender on one side (or fighter for feats, each option there is viable), then Barbarian and whatever PrC mashes faces best on the other. I don't know what War Hulk does, but that might be good. It sounds good.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-06-02, 04:05 PM
Well, from the Completes, I can suggest a Samurai/Spellthief. Don't PrC out, just keep going all the way through. It's got a pretty reliable power level, but you don't have the books for it.

Or, if you don't want to suck. . .

Warblade's quite nice; Psion, Archivist, and Wizard are good pairs for it; keep going with Warblade since you don't have the PrCs for it, and PrC out of your caster into something useful with full casting.

I can second the Duskblade//Druid.

If you had ToB, I'd suggest Swordsage//Druid, actually, to cut down on MAD (Swordsage uses Wisdom more than any other mental stat).

Finally, have you considered Divine Minion Kobold Wizard//Anything? Its power stops growing at about level 5, 'tis true, but he should be a solid, reliable combatant who can contribute to the party's effort in every encounter, even the ones where he's on another plane.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-06-02, 04:13 PM
Warblade 20//Cleric1/Wizard1/Archivist6/Dweomerkeeper10/Contemplative 2.

Melee gestalt? Check.

Arcane gestalt? Check.

Divine gestalt? Check.

The horror!

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 04:19 PM
Knight
Completely forgot about Knight ... a mobility + defense optimized Knight would be very handy for the party. Knight doesn't really add to his own potential for inflicting melee damage though.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-06-02, 06:15 PM
Since no ToB; then I would be leaning towards Fighter6/Dervish10/Tempest4//Scout20 meself.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-02, 06:18 PM
No complete warrior nor complete adventurer either.

Droodle
2007-06-02, 06:23 PM
Since no ToB; then I would be leaning towards Fighter6/Dervish10/Tempest4//Scout20 meself.That's actually a pretty scary build, but I'd drop the Tempest levels for more fighter levels. A build like this actually benefits from taking the Specialization chain.

Ramza00
2007-06-02, 07:39 PM
So let me make sure I have your books correctly?

do have access to core and SRD, the Player's Handbook II, any free exerpts provided by Wizards on their website, and Rich Burlew's homebrew. I also have access to the Warcraft Roleplaying Game and the Planar Handbook\

core (PHB, MM, DMG)
SRD (PHB, MM, DMG+ UA, Dieties and Demigods, and the XPH)
PHB2
Warcraft Roleplaying Game
Planar Handbook
Free excerpts from WOTC
Free excerpts from Rich Burlew.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you have access to any Complete Books (Complete books are not core)?

Spell Compedium?

Ramza00
2007-06-02, 07:50 PM
Well to start things off, here are all the free stuff on the wizard website From this great thread (Some Handy Links for Co Work)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=482636

PRCs


Normal prestige classes:

Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a)
Cold Iron Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20040507a)
Dark Hunter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a)
Dwarven chanter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061128a)
Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a)
Eye of Xanathar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061107b)
Guardian of the Road (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030623a)
Halfling Whistler (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061121a)
Lady/Lord of the Dead (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x)
Life Eater (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20020911b)
Master harper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a)
Moon guardian (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a)
Nightcloak (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a)
Silverwood Arcanist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031209a)
Silverwood Outrider (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031202a)


Psionic prestige classes:

Body Leech (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925a)
Constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b)
Crystal Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625d)
Meditant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827c)
Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d)
Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)
Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)
Variant Pyrokineticist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e)
Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)
Soul manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)
Subverted psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a)


Epic prestige classes:

Celestial Paragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)
Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)


Note this list is outdated


Divine Minion template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a)
- wildshape cheesiness, +1 template that grants wildshape as an 11th level druid... blah, take your debate elsewhere

Vampire Lord Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a)
- a really souped up template applied on top of a normal vampire

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)


Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)
- like an animal companion for any character

Entomanothrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a)
- vermin lycanthropy/were-vermin/were-insects/whatever you call it

feats: Precocious Apprentice and Collegiate Wizard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a)
- found in Complete Arcane, but they’re also available in the online preview and they’re mentioned so often on these boards (especially Precocious Apprentice) that it’s worth posting a link here


Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (Underdark) - a very strong +1 template

Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp)
- breaking down monsters into level progressions so you can play them at lower ECL

Level Adjustments for Anthropomorphic Animals (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/articles/awakened.zip) - excerpt from Savage Species that WotC has made available for download on their website

Swordwraith template (+3) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040202a) - Fiend Folio

Races of the Dragon web enhancement 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) - info on the Kobold Ritual (increase sorcerer casting by 1) and the Kobold Domain which grants Trapfinding

Kaorti weapons (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) - make any weapon's crit multiplier (x4)

The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats) - notes on several FR characters, and a couple important items can be found here. Of special note: the Force weapon enhancement, and the Quiver of Anariel (unlimited arrows)

Mordenkainen's Force Missiles (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20020809a)

Psionics of Incarnum (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) - psionic soulmelds and the Soul Manifester (dual psionic and meldshaping advancement)

Blades of the Quori (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050110a) - article contains the "Flowing Blade" feat, which lets you flurry with a mind blade

The Dark Hunter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a) - a ranger-esque 3.0 PrC (different from the Complete Warrior version) that has wisdom based arcane casting

Fey Feature: Life in a Noble House (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) - some fey specific feats, foremost of is Charming the Arrow (use Cha for ranged attacks)

Dead Life (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) - feats and items for undead characters, plus the "Lord of the Dead" prestige class

Cyran Gliding Boots (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a) - lets you make a 10' step rather than a 5' step

Clockwork Wonders: The Clockwork Armor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a) - your very own mecha suit

Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) - Haste Personified
Dwarven Chanter (Kit Conversion) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061128a) - a Dwarven bard prestige class

Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) - more urban class variants
Cityscape Web Enhancement 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) - contains the assassination weapon enhancement

The Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) - a good assassin PrC

Savage Progressions: Level-Adjusted Races (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) - Aasimar, Drow, Duergar, Fey-touched, Half-Fey, Svirfneblin, Tiefling


Web Previews (some of the links may not go directly to the preview, so you may have to scroll around a bit)
Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) (Heroes of Horror)
Beast Heart Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4) (Dungeonscape)
Blackguard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413e) (DMG)
Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b) (Races of Destiny)
Corrupt Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20051006b) (Heroes of Horror)
Cragtop Archer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b) (Races of Stone)
Cyran AVenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707b&page=2) (Eberron: Five Nations)
Deepwarden (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=4) (Races of Stone)
Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3) (Drow of the Underdark)
Doomguard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040706a&page=3) (actually Doomlord, Planar Handbook)
Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) (Dragon Magic)
Dragonstalker (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=6) (Draconomicon)
Dread Commando (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=6) (Heroes of Battle)
Eyes of Horus-Re (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040111a&page=5) (Player's Guide to Faerun)
Fist of Raziel (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031012a) (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Fochlucan Lyrist (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) (Complete Adventurer)
Green Star Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105a) (Complete Arcane)
Hammer of Moradin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040305a) (Player’s Guide to Faerun)
Harper Agent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031214a&page=6) (Player's Guide to Faerun)
Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) - Fiendish Codex II
Hidecarved Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=2) (Draconomicon)
Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) (Eberron: Five Nations)
Magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) (Lost Empires of Faerun)
Marshall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) (Miniatures Handbook)
Master Harper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a)
Master of Radiance (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=2) (Libris Mortis)
Master of Shrouds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041015b) (Libris Mortis)
Mystic Examplar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070504a&page=3) (Complete Champion)
Nar Demonbinder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2) (Forgotten Realms: Unapproachable East)
Paladin alternative class features (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a) (from Dungeonscape)
Pious Templar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040418a&page=2) (Complete Divine)
Rage Mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20031116a&page=7) (Complete Warrior)
Raumathari battlemage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c) (Forgotten Realms: Unapproachable East)
Recaster (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050407b&page=3) (Races of Eberron)
Scarlet Corsair (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) (Stormwrack)
Silver Key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) (Dragonmarked)
Spellthief (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) (Complete Adventurer)
Thief-Acrobat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=3) (Complete Adventurer)
Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a&page=3) (Complete Mage)
War Hulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) (Miniatures Handbook)
Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) (Tome of Battle)
Wilder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=4) (Expanded Psionics Handbook)


5. Other websites with compiled info

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20
Everyone should know this one. There are lists for everything as downloadable pdf's (which are searchable), and they contain basic info as well.

***The Mango Index*** (http://timjoh.com/dnd/) (rehosted)

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/index.asp
A nice searchable database for spells, feats, deities, items, and monsters.

Spell Database (http://spelldb.com/)
- another online searchable spell database

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=299939
Lists for just about everything - by devinmdp
My favourite is the downloadable excel file for monsters: here (http://www.devinweb.com/creaturelisting.htm)
I typically use the files from CrystalKeep for everything else.

The d20 Wiki (http://d20wiki.com/index.php/Main_Page)
- online d20 Wiki resource... don’t know what a Wiki is? go to Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/) to find out

CO board Wiki (http://coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) - Wiki for the Character Optimization Boards

A good summary of feats in prereq-tree format (http://mndigest.shadowdragon.net/Extras/FeatsTable%203.5%20Core%20FR.pdf) - feat-tree

The Dragondex (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/index.html)
- a complete index to Dragon Magazine

Tholos - Dragon Magazine Article Index (http://home.earthlink.net/~dmindex/index.html)

Forgotten Realms Helps (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/index.shtml) - Good site with lots of info and character creation tools. Forgotten Realsm specific, but from what I can tell has a slightly expanded knowledge set with some Eberron stuff mixed in. Contains: dieties, domains, regions, races, feats, prestige classes, skills, items, spells, psionics, monsters.
Forgotten Realms feat list (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl) - shortcut to the non-filtered feat list from the above site
feats filter page (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml)

The Waking Lands - prestige classes (http://wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_prestige_classes_page.htm)
From what I've heard, this here is the website of one of the authors of various D&D books etc. You can find here a couple more prestige classes, but most notably you will find the original 10 level versions of the Invisible Blade, Occult Slayer, and Reaping Mauler.

Andargor's Home (http://www.andargor.com/) - nice SRD databases (in XML/SQL/Access formats), npc generators, xp calculators, etc



One big link that wasn't mention is this one.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/

Look up this link and go to character creation for a huge list of feats and their info

Ramza00
2007-06-02, 08:00 PM
A build

Class 1 | Class 2 | BAB | Misc

Wizard 1 | Monk 1 | .75 | (Use the Carmendine Monk feat) you can see it in the character creation section of realmshelps.dandello.net in Champions of Valor makes your Wis to AC Int to AC instead
Wizard 2 | Monk 2 | 1.5 | Take the Cobra Strike Variant which gives you Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats, in d20srd
Wizard 3 | Swashbuckler 1 | 2.5 | Weapon Finesse
Wizard 4 | Swashbuckler 2 | 3.5 |
Wizard 5 | Swashbuckler 3 | 4.5 | Int to Damage
Swiftblade 1 | Wizard 6 | 5.5 |
Swiftblade 2 | Feat Rogue 1 | 6.5 | Bonus Feat
Swiftblade 3 | Feat Rogue 2 | 7.5 | Bonus Feat
Swiftblade 4 | Wizard 7 | 8.5 |
Swiftblade 5 | Fighter 1 | 9.5 | Bonus Feat
Swiftblade 6 | Fighter 2 | 10.5 | Bonus Feat
Swiftblade 7 | Wizard 8 | 11.5 |
Swiftblade 8 | Psychic Warrior 1 | 12.5 | Bonus Feat
Swiftblade 9 | Psychic Warrior 2 | 13.5 | Bonus Feat
Swiftblade 10 | Wizard 9 | 14.5 |

8 bonus feat (2 are pre reqs) 14.5 bab at lvl 15 plus int to damage (Swash 3) plus weapon finesse, plus Wizard bonus feat, full caster, swiftblade goodies.

Corolinth
2007-06-02, 08:53 PM
Or, for an almost parallel level of effectiveness, I could play a Monk/Spellthief with 6 Wisdom.

:smallconfused: :smallsmile:I know there's a wave of "omgfightersuck!" on teh intarweb. I even understand why. You don't truly appreciate a fighter when dice aren't raining on the table. With 22 fighter bonus feats, I think you can make something work. You've already got 5 at level one, 6 if you're human. That's almost as many as a level 20 character.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-02, 09:01 PM
I'm really hankering to try a Martial Adept//Marshal soon. Since you have the stuff for the Warblade, use that MA (though I'm partial to the Swordsage, any of the three would be spectacular in this build). Your combat effectiveness has a lot of ToB goodness to it, but the best part is that you're highly effective when fighting alongside allies (perfect opportunity to abuse the Leadership feat and HoB if you've got it). And what's better then one good melee character? A whole bunch!

JaronK
2007-06-02, 09:46 PM
I know there's a wave of "omgfightersuck!" on teh intarweb. I even understand why. You don't truly appreciate a fighter when dice aren't raining on the table. With 22 fighter bonus feats, I think you can make something work. You've already got 5 at level one, 6 if you're human. That's almost as many as a level 20 character.

Except that Fighter 20//Fighter 20 is exactly the same as Fighter 20. You progress class features (such as bonus feats) at the faster rate, which means the bonus feats from one overwrite the bonus feats from the other.

So yeah, it completely and totally sucks. Fighter 20//Expert 20 would be stronger... at least that would have a good will save.

JaronK

Ramza00
2007-06-02, 09:59 PM
Even if you ignore the dual progression of the same feature clause of gestalt clause which says you can't do that.

Fighter /Fighter will still suck furthermore Fighter/Feaat rogue will be the same thing but with a better reflex save, evasion, skill tricks, skill points etc

Talya
2007-06-02, 10:27 PM
Since no ToB; then I would be leaning towards Fighter6/Dervish10/Tempest4//Scout20 meself.

Similar to the Scout 20//Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Dervish 10/Tempest 3 I suggested earlier.

purplearcanist
2007-06-02, 11:52 PM
Using PHB, DMG, and Minitures Handbook:

Remember, the most effective gestalt is one that can combine their abilities to produce something more powerful.

Try a Barbarian 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 3/Havoc Mage 5/War Hulk 9/Barbarian 1//Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 2/Barbarian 1/War Hulk 1/Eldritch Knight 8/Wizard 2

TO_Incognito
2007-06-02, 11:59 PM
Try a Barbarian 1/Monk 1/Barbarian 3/Havoc Mage 5/War Hulk 9/Barbarian 1//Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 2/Barbarian 1/War Hulk 1/Eldritch Knight 8/Wizard 2

I believe Eldritch Knight is banned for gestalt; from SRD:


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

Draz74
2007-06-03, 12:40 AM
Similar to the Scout 20//Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 4/Dervish 10/Tempest 3 I suggested earlier.

I recommend something like this ... but with Ranger 2 on the full-BAB side somewhere, so that you can get the Swift Hunter feat and make your Skirmish damage therefore more reliable (works vs. Undead, Constructs, etc.).

Your Will save will be the worst part of this build. Maybe you can even switch out some Fighter/Tempest levels and replace them with something that has a good Will save. Knight would be interesting; I'm not sure whether it would be good.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-03, 12:52 AM
No completes ...

Leon
2007-06-03, 02:22 AM
Warblade/Knight, focusing on White Raven/Stone Dragon

Nifft
2007-06-03, 11:40 AM
Cloistered Cleric // Psychic Warrior heading into the Slayer psionic prestige class. With the Travel domain, you'll have a great Domain power, good extra spells, and Survival on your skill list -- so your Track feat won't be wasted.

Cheers, -- N