Building a Cyst Mage

[deathbymanga]

I absolutely love the idea of making a Cyst caster who uses his magic to become a master manipulator. He grabs the Spectral Hand to cast it at a distance and just takes over a small town in a few days. He's not interested in mindless slaves, but rather just ruling over everyone, and being able to just see where they are and give subtle suggestions is brillaint. Plus if I really need to I can kill them without ever being pinged. I just love it.

So, what kind of spell-caster should I go with? I need to be able to cast 1st level spells and have 2 skill points in Religion. So I guess the most obvious choice is Death Cleric, but I'd rather keep this covertly, so maybe something respectable?

[Jergmo]

I'm not sure if the class fits the flavor, but a Beguiler can certainly appear respectable. Covert is their bread and butter.

[xyianth]

How much cheese are you willing to stomach?

I've posted this trick a few times, and it absolutely works RAW. It is also absolutely clear that it shouldn't RAI.

race: glimmerskin halfling
build: dragonfire adept 5/nosomatic chirurgeon 1
feats: entangling exhalation[1], least dragonmark(mark of healing: any SLA)[3], mother cyst[6]
invocations: endure exposure, <any least>, enthralling voice

Pestilential touch lets you lose a use of an SLA to cast an inflict spell of equivalent level. These inflicts are neither arcane nor divine, but they are explicitly spells and you can cast them. Mother cyst adds all the cyst spells and explicitly allows you to cast them like any other spell you can cast. Enthralling Voice is a 6th level SLA that you can use at-will. This means you can cast any inflict spell or cyst spell up to 6th level at-will, starting at ECL 6. From ECL 1-5, it plays as an effective dragonfire adept. If you continue as a dragonfire adept (or advance casting as one), the dark invocation energy immunity is 8th level.

You can even theurge warlock or dragonfire adept with a real caster to pick this up as a side trick. Something like warlock 1/sorcerer 4/nosomatic chirurgeon 1(advance sorcerer)/eldritch theurge 10/sorcerer +4 casts as a 19th level sorcerer and an 11th level warlock which means at-will 6th level inflicts/cyst spells on top of 9th level sorcerer casting and greater invocations.

It can be made even better by theurging a sha'ir: warlock 1/sha'ir 4/nosomatic chirurgeon 1(advance warlock)/eldritch theurge 10/mystic theurge 4 casts as a 18th level sha'ir and a 16th level warlock which means at-will 9th level inflict/cyst spells(dark foresight is 9th level) on top of 9th level sha'ir casting and dark invocations.

Glimmerskin halfling is used to get heal as a class skill. You can delay entry to nosomatic chirurgeon to ECL 14 and use other halflings if you choose. If you remove racial restrictions of dragonmarks, you can use any race.

Warlocks and dragonfire adepts are not the only ways to (ab)use nosomatic chirurgeon. Any at-will SLA can be used, so other classes can also provide different abilities. Off the top of my head:

Urban Soul grants 2 at-will SLAs: meld into city(3rd level SLA) and intracity teleport(7th level SLA)
Loredelver grants 3 at-will SLAs: detect magic(1st level SLA), arcane sight(3rd level SLA), greater arcane sight(7th level SLA)
Rainbow Servant grants 3 at-will SLAs: detect evil(1st level SLA), detect chaos(1st level SLA), detect thoughts(2nd level SLA)
Truenamer grants 29 at-will SLAs: all utterances can be converted; max level is 6th
Acolyte of the Ego grants 3 at-will SLAs: cadence of the distant step(4th level SLA), cadence of the frightful mind(4th level SLA), cadence of the secret mask(1st level SLA)
Bereft grants 5 at-will SLAs: syllable of detachment(2nd level SLA), syllable of affliction(4th level SLA), syllable of exile(6th level SLA), syllable of dissolution(7th level SLA), syllable of enervation(8th level SLA)
Singer of Concordance grants 1 at-will SLA: sphere of concordance(7th level SLA)

I'm sure there are plenty of others, but I think that covers the highest level ones available.

[ShurikVch]

Note: all of Mother Cyst spells have line:
Level: Cleric X, sorcerer/wizard YThus, if your character is not a Cleric, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, or Wizard, this feat will be useless

EDIT: Ur-Priest should work too

[xyianth]

Note: all of Mother Cyst spells have line:Thus, if your character is not a Cleric, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, or Wizard, this feat will be useless

No, that means the spells are on those class lists. The spells require the caster has a mother cyst, so being on your spell list is not sufficient to make use of them. The feat explicitly grants knowledge of the spells and makes them available to you like any other spells you can cast. This is the more specific rule that applies.

[ShurikVch]

The feat explicitly grants knowledge of the spells and makes them available to you like any other spells you can cast.But it doesn't grant ability to prepare or cast spells which are not on your class list

[Crake]

But it doesn't grant ability to prepare or cast spells which are not on your class list

What part of "You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst" makes you think that?

[ShurikVch]

What part of "You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst" makes you think that?This part
You can cast any other spell from your class(es) spell list(s), but not from any other list

[deathbymanga]

Note: all of Mother Cyst spells have line:Thus, if your character is not a Cleric, Favored Soul, Sorcerer, or Wizard, this feat will be useless

EDIT: Ur-Priest should work too

Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken.

I don't think Ur-Priest works here unless I grab the Mother Cyst AFTER I become an Ur-Priest.

Hmm, any Prestige class that let's you use your Previous Class's levels when you level up, such as Theurge should work for this type of character.

[Lhurgyof]

I believe Cancer Mage would be appropriate.

[deathbymanga]

something that confuses me is that the Mother Cyst spell does not require the player to be a Wizard/Sorcerer or Cleric or other class that uses those respective spell lists. It just requires that you be a 1st level caster and have 2 skill points in Religion. However the Cyst spells themselves have the restriction of being Cleric and Wizard/Sorcerer spells. So, what does that mean? That a Druid can get a Mother Cyst and know how to cast Cyst spells, but not be able to cast them?

[Segev]

I don't think the trick in the second post works. It allows you to cast inflict spells spontaneously, but the necrotic line of spells are not inflict spells.

You're hanging your hat on the "as any other spell you can cast," but it doesn't quite work that way. Clerics who have the Mother Cyst feat don't get the ability to cast necrotic spells spontaneously; they only can cast inflict spells that way. Nor do they gain the power to prepare necrotic spells in their domain slots.

Specialist wizards who ban necromancy, as well, cannot cast necrotic spells even if they take Mother Cyst, nor can non-Necromancer specialists prepare necrotic spells in their bonus spell slots.

You have to be able to cast spells in the first place, not merely substitute spells from a specific list for spell-like abilities, to cast the necrotic spells. They are merely added to your spells known.



To answer the OP... I would go with Wizard or Dread Necromancer. (Dread Necromancer is arguably able to use necrotic spells; he's not a sorcerer or wizard, but...well, ask your DM.)

Dread Necromancer can fairly well pretend to be something else entirely. That one weapon proficiency, well chosen, can make you look like a gish or even a warrior.

Wizard can't hide so well, but you can still pretend to be a more benign sort in public.

Remember to have command undead in order to enthrall any skulking cysts your antics may produce. Having them sneak up on sleeping folks and poke them until they're infected is a good way to spread your influence without having to be out there, personally, doing it. As well, recall that the higher level spells that inflict necrotic cyst as a side effect have a higher save DC. Necrotic eruption is a great one for this, if you're willing to gruesomely sacrifice one minion to hopefully land a few others.

Also, when you get high enough level, necrotic tumor ensures loyalty. Use it on low-level, loveable people. Children are great for this. Be their favorite person. Or their terrifying captor. Whatever suits you and the role you wish to present to the heroes.

Then, when meddling do-gooders try to attack you, have your urchins run towards them, pleading for help or pleading to leave you alone (as your tableau requires)...and detonate them with necrotic eruption. The horror of it will shock your heroic foes, and you may well have just gotten one or more of them infected. AND they've taken fireball damage! Half of which cannot be healed magically.

And you can do it again next round. Unless they surrender to protect your hostages.

[deathbymanga]

I don't think the trick in the second post works. It allows you to cast inflict spells spontaneously, but the necrotic line of spells are not inflict spells.

You're hanging your hat on the "as any other spell you can cast," but it doesn't quite work that way. Clerics who have the Mother Cyst feat don't get the ability to cast necrotic spells spontaneously; they only can cast inflict spells that way. Nor do they gain the power to prepare necrotic spells in their domain slots.

Specialist wizards who ban necromancy, as well, cannot cast necrotic spells even if they take Mother Cyst, nor can non-Necromancer specialists prepare necrotic spells in their bonus spell slots.

You have to be able to cast spells in the first place, not merely substitute spells from a specific list for spell-like abilities, to cast the necrotic spells. They are merely added to your spells known.



To answer the OP... I would go with Wizard or Dread Necromancer. (Dread Necromancer is arguably able to use necrotic spells; he's not a sorcerer or wizard, but...well, ask your DM.)

Dread Necromancer can fairly well pretend to be something else entirely. That one weapon proficiency, well chosen, can make you look like a gish or even a warrior.

Wizard can't hide so well, but you can still pretend to be a more benign sort in public.

Remember to have command undead in order to enthrall any skulking cysts your antics may produce. Having them sneak up on sleeping folks and poke them until they're infected is a good way to spread your influence without having to be out there, personally, doing it. As well, recall that the higher level spells that inflict necrotic cyst as a side effect have a higher save DC. Necrotic eruption is a great one for this, if you're willing to gruesomely sacrifice one minion to hopefully land a few others.

Also, when you get high enough level, necrotic tumor ensures loyalty. Use it on low-level, loveable people. Children are great for this. Be their favorite person. Or their terrifying captor. Whatever suits you and the role you wish to present to the heroes.

Then, when meddling do-gooders try to attack you, have your urchins run towards them, pleading for help or pleading to leave you alone (as your tableau requires)...and detonate them with necrotic eruption. The horror of it will shock your heroic foes, and you may well have just gotten one or more of them infected. AND they've taken fireball damage! Half of which cannot be healed magically.

And you can do it again next round. Unless they surrender to protect your hostages.

this is all great intell, but I'm still a bit confused about Dread Necromancer. DNs use a specific spell list and can't get access to the Wizard/sorcerer spell list. So how can they cast a specifically Wizard/Sorcerer spell? Or am I misreading how that works?

[ShurikVch]

this is all great intell, but I'm still a bit confused about Dread Necromancer. DNs use a specific spell list and can't get access to the Wizard/sorcerer spell list. So how can they cast a specifically Wizard/Sorcerer spell? Or am I misreading how that works?Advanced Learning:
At 4th level, a dread necromancer can add a new spell to her list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a cleric or wizard spell of the necromancy school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the dread necromancer already knows. Once a new spell is selected, it is added to that dread necromancer’s spell list and can be cast just like any other spell she knows. If a spell is both a cleric spell and a wizard spell, use the lower of the two spell levels (when different) to determine what level the spell is for a dread necromancer.
A dread necromancer gains an additional new spell at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.

[deathbymanga]

Advanced Learning:

this only gives me 4 Cyst spells. hardly the best way to specialize as a Cyst Mage.

[ShurikVch]

this only gives me 4 Cyst spells. hardly the best way to specialize as a Cyst Mage.Technically, 5
Still suboptimal

[deathbymanga]

Perhaps I should play a Favoured Soul then? Of course, I could always take a Prestige Class that continues after my existing caster, but I'm only interested in the Cyst spells, so whatever Prestige class picked should be one that offers either extra feats or extra features.

[xyianth]

Look, the spell listing just means the spell is on those class lists to begin with. It doesn't mean only those classes can ever learn the spells. The feat grants you all 10 spells known immediately upon taking it. A Dread Necromancer does not need to use Advanced Learning to pick them up, just take the feat and they are added to your spells known. If things worked the way you are suggesting, the Rainbow Servant prestige class wouldn't work at all. It's capstone grants an arcane caster the ability to cast any spell on the cleric list. If this limited you to only casting spells on both cleric and your arcane list, no arcane caster would ever take it. In actuality, it is one of the best prestige classes for Warmages, Beguilers, and Dread Necromancers because it adds 3 domains and the entire cleric list of spells to your class list.

As to the pestilential touch trick, I specified up front that it was a RAW trick. RAW clerics that take the feat absolutely can spontaneously convert prepared spells into cyst spells. RAW wizards that ban necromancy still can't use them, but that is because a separate rule prevents necromancy entirely. RAW is a wacky place. You are correct about the intent of the feat being only to allow both spontaneous and prepared casters to make use of the feat. However the wording they used to do so does not actually limit it that way. Pestilential touch does not actually grant a spell list or known spells at all. It merely gives you a method to cast spells, which is all mother cyst's wording needs.

Bottom line, the ability to cast spells isn't ever worded as: "You can only cast spells from your list." Lists restrict what spells you can learn/prepare. You can then cast spells that you know/have prepared. Feats, class abilities, etc... that grant bonus spells known add them to your list of known spells. (or spells you can prepare)

[Segev]

It can be argued that the RAW do not let you cast sor/wiz and cleric spells, so the DN cannot cast necrotic spells even with Mother Cyst. This would not invalidate the Rainbow Savant's obvious intent, since the Rainbow Savant explicitly allows you to cast Cleric spells with your arcane spell slots. Mother Cyst does not say you can cast sor/wiz spells or cleric spells; only that the necrotic line of spells are available to you without you having to spend spells known on them.

That said, it can also be argued that Mother Cyst is a case of specific trumping general, so adding those spells to your list makes them legal to cast, even if you can't cast cleric or sor/wiz spells.

And either way, it's perfectly reasonable to house rule a DN can use them; they're in theme and the real cost is the feat, not the class granting you spell access in general.

[deathbymanga]

if this is true, then ANY class could cast Cyst spells. I could be a Druid and grab the Mother Cyst Feat and go about casting Cyst spells like normal

[ShurikVch]

Look, the spell listing just means the spell is on those class lists to begin with.Yes. So..? :smallconfused:
It doesn't mean only those classes can ever learn the spells.No. It's exactly what it mean
The feat grants you all 10 spells known immediately upon taking it.But not an ability to prepare or cast them, if they are not on your class list
A Dread Necromancer does not need to use Advanced Learning to pick them up, just take the feat and they are added to your spells known.Dread Necromancer, actually, is one of most uptight classes with their spell list. Aside from Cerebrosis, Improved Oneiromancy, and Corrupt Arcana, no other feat will add any extra spells
If things worked the way you are suggesting, the Rainbow Servant prestige class wouldn't work at all. It's capstone grants an arcane caster the ability to cast any spell on the cleric list. If this limited you to only casting spells on both cleric and your arcane list, no arcane caster would ever take it. In actuality, it is one of the best prestige classes for Warmages, Beguilers, and Dread Necromancers because it adds 3 domains and the entire cleric list of spells to your class list.Let's see...
A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has.Looks pretty explicit to me.
Unlike the Mother Cyst, it directly says you can to cast them.
Also, DN into Rainbow Servant... :smallconfused:
Most of undead-related spells are [evil]...

Bottom line, the ability to cast spells isn't ever worded as: "You can only cast spells from your list." Lists restrict what spells you can learn/prepare. You can then cast spells that you know/have prepared. Feats, class abilities, etc... that grant bonus spells known add them to your list of known spells. (or spells you can prepare)Spell Descriptions, Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#level):
The next line of a spell description gives the spell’s level, a number between 0 and 9 that defines the spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by an abbreviation for the class whose members can cast the spell. The Level entry also indicates whether a spell is a domain spell and, if so, what its domain and its level as a domain spell are. A spell’s level affects the DC for any save allowed against the effect. Also, re-check the descriptions of classes. For example,
A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

[Segev]

if this is true, then ANY class could cast Cyst spells. I could be a Druid and grab the Mother Cyst Feat and go about casting Cyst spells like normal

You could make an argument in the RAW for either, though I wouldn't blame DMs for coming down on the stricter, "no, only Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers" side of it.

Really, though, if you're spending a feat on it, they're not so powerful that there's reason to deny a spellcaster having them. Just treat them as being on that caster's class list AND known list. Because they are on the latter, and arguably the feat makes them on the former.

[Ellowryn]

Do note that in the description portion of the feat it says "The mother cyst grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below". To me this means you have access to the spells even if you normally do not (not on your list, of an alignment that you are unable to cast, etc). If they only wanted clerics, wizards, and sorcerers to be able to cast them then they should have mentioned that in the prerequisites instead of just requiring caster level 1st. Overall this is just more bad editing on the part of WotC.