Ways to make fighting undead hoards interesting?

[ShamasTheBard]

My party members are level 11 now and lets just say that fighting a level 18 necromancer and 46 zombie thralls doesn't sound so action packed when most of the party members have an average AC of 19-23. They are with a level 20 wizard (Harry Dresden) so that's how I got that a level 18 necromancer and 46 zombies ended up being a medium encounter.

Instead of just throwing a bunch of generic Monster Manual zombies at the party and having to roll for 3 solid hours, perhaps you guys can give me some advice on how to run this hoard and make it interesting and tactical? I mean how can it not be tactical, the necromancer has 46 friggin foot soldiers!

I also had another idea. Since I'm basing this off the 7th Book of Dresden Files [[SPOILERS IN CASE ANYONE IS READING IT AHEAD]] Why not just give the necromancer spells that augment the zombies and allow the necromancer to spawn other undead aside from just ghouls, zombies, and skeletons? (oh my)

So I was thinking of spells like Familiarize Undead, Bolster Undead, and maybe a boon like Vecna's Blessing which I will explain below.

Familiarize Undead Level 1 (ritual):

Casting Time: 1H
Range: 10ft
Components: VSM
Duration: Instantaneous

(Material Components: Dried or mummified crow skull, mummified dove heart, and a lock of hair or fingernail from the caster crushed and consumed by fire in a brass brazier)

You imbue a humanoid zombie of your choice with the ability to deliver a single touch attack as a reaction for you using your attack modifier (if you need one). As an action you may also use the limited senses of the zombie, replacing your own. A zombie no longer under your control cannot deliver touch attacks for you.


Bolster Undead Level 3:

Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 ft
Components: VS
Duration: 1 hr Consentration

Choose up to 3 undead creatures under your control and choose two of the following benefits to bestow upon them.

Gain proficiency in heavy armor
Gain proficiency in two martial weapons
Add caster's proficiency modifier to the undead creatures proficiency modifier.
Give undead creatures 2d12 temporary hitpoints.

If casting this spell at 4th level or higher, add two undead creatures you control to the number of undead creatures you can bolster.

Vecnas Blessing:

You ignore immunity when attempting to charm an undead creature that is normally immune to it.


Tell me what you guys think. I also would love a way to get different kinds of zombies and skeletons under the necromancer's control other than just humanoids. How does a caster get himself a Beholder Zombie? How can a caster make themselves a zombie T-Rex?

[djreynolds]

I like to include in my campaigns, for hire mercenary bands that are at odds with the party and love to show up when not wanted.

Sort of like the opposing news anchors in Anchorman.

[Gignere]

It's a level 18 necromancer you have access to wish and create undead. Do you really need to make up new spells? With create undead some of your horde now can be ghouls, ghasts, wights, or mummies. Even with animate dead I prefer the skeleton option. They can wear armor and use weapons. Why not outfit them with full plate + shield? 20 AC. Have some of them armed with crossbow/shortbows and now you have an army with both heavy infantry and archery. Maybe use wish and buff them all with haste, or even more evil buff them all with spirit guardians (swarm party auto 46 x 3d8 damage will save for half). Guaranteed TPK even with Dresden helping hehe I am an evil DM.

[ShamasTheBard]

It's a level 18 necromancer you have access to wish and create undead. Do you really need to make up new spells? With create undead some of your horde now can be ghouls, ghasts, wights, or mummies. Even with animate dead I prefer the skeleton option. They can wear armor and use weapons. Why not outfit them with full plate + shield? 20 AC. Have some of them armed with crossbow/shortbows and now you have an army with both heavy infantry and archery. Maybe use wish and buff them all with haste, or even more evil buff them all with spirit guardians (swarm party auto 46 x 3d8 damage will save for half). Guaranteed TPK even with Dresden helping hehe I am an evil DM.

Holy Crap. I had no idea wish could buff any number of people like that. Posts like yours are why I come to this site. I know Dresden was going to finagle with True Polymorph to get the zombie T-Rex because Jesus Christ, riding a zombie T-Rex with butters playing polka on it's back with you.

[Gignere]

Holy Crap. I had no idea wish could buff any number of people like that. Posts like yours are why I come to this site. I know Dresden was going to finagle with True Polymorph to get the zombie T-Rex because Jesus Christ, riding a zombie T-Rex with butters playing polka on it's back with you.

Its a little bit of interpretation since in the RAW the example given was you can essentially cast Greater Restoration on 20 creatures. Basically a 5th level spell on 20 creatures at once. So I don't see why you can't cast a 3rd level spell on 40 + creatures should be similar power wise. Of course even if you ruled that this is an effect that can trigger 33 percent chance of never casting wish again, this is something an NPC might likely do if they feel their life is threatened.

[MrStabby]

You could have unlimited basic undead. Just a soup of them. The party can keep killing them but more just come to take their place. It means no bookkeeping as you don't track zombie HP or roll damage against them or wonder how many are dead. The party in the encounter is about getting past these to the necromancer; speed, stealth illusions, distractions and feints the draw the horde away.

Once the players get to the necromancer they can try and abduct him to kill elsewhere, use walls/scenery/chokepoints to keep the horde away from the party in that fight or just try to weather the zombie claws long enough to take down the necromancer. A couple of turn undead uses will buy time but the party may quickly run dry on these resources.

This puts more time pressure on the party - can you hold off the horde whilst the lock is picked or will it be quicker to bash down the door? If the rogue distracts a clump of zombies by running in a different direction will his climb speed be enough? Done right I think it could be a fun encounter with a mix of combat but also a lot of use of skills and knowledge.

[N810]

You could add some non-human zombies....
Dragon born zombies could still have their breath attack,
Or like Cyclops zombies for more muscle,
or a litch, for extra madness.

[Seruvius]

Add some variety, or take inspiration from the ridiculous number of zombie films/games/books out there and copy some of it. Have Exploding bugger, Big tanky charging buggers and ones with a ranged incapacitate. At the end when they get to the level 18 necromancer leading the hoard oops its just a Simulacrum, the real necro is somewhere else nearby.

[Sception]

Making this more interesting first comes down to whether you're insisting on the BBEG using exclusively PC-accessible mechanics.

If yes, then why? It tends not to work especially well. That said, as already suggested, mix things up with some of the create undead options, gated or planar bound daemonic allies. Have the undead hordes attack in pairs and trios that use the aid action to make fewer attacks but with better chances to hit. Give the BBEG a dragon archetype cohort villain/ally/whatever using the oathbroken paladin rules to further buff undead damage. Abuse simulacrum (already a very on-theme spell for a necromancer) so that the PCs are never sure if they're fighting the actual BBEG & antipaladin cohort or doubles of them, and so that when they do fight them for real, they'll be fighting multiple copies.

If no, then branch out. Give the villain a wider variety of undead, including level appropriate ones, ethereals, stuff that can't normally be animated or controlled but that makes for more interesting fights. Make the villain a lich, or give them strange powers with interesting implications for fights (lifesight, that works even in magical darkness; zombie style 'save to not die' based on their spellcasting stat; or maybe the ability to project their shadow as a separate incorporeal undead creature that can travel great distances, teleport through areas of darkness, and possess other undead creatures, empowering them with a portion of the villains will and spellcasting ability like how Harbinger 'assumes control' of collectors in mass effect 2, allow that shadow to re-possess the villains corpse, or any empty corpse, returning them to life if slain, such that the party needs to kill the shadow first - or even both in the same round - in order to slay him for good; etc etc). Combine all that with PC-accessible shenanigans as above.


As for your homebrew stuff - looks pretty good! But I'd re-work familiarize undead as a feat rather than a spell, and bolster undead should nullify with turn undead - ie, if turned, the target loses the benefit of being bolstered, instead of fleeing / being destroyed. Also, maybe an intelligence boost to 8 or 10 if the target is generally lower than that.

You might also consider allowing up-cast 'Animate Dead' spells to create the different variants of 'skeleton' and 'zombie' from the monster manual, as with how create undead accesses different creatures vie up-casting.

A homebrew line of 'summon undead' spells allowing for access to some of the ethereal creatures might also be cool.

[Bluepaw]

You could have unlimited basic undead. Just a soup of them. The party can keep killing them but more just come to take their place. It means no bookkeeping as you don't track zombie HP or roll damage against them or wonder how many are dead. The party in the encounter is about getting past these to the necromancer; speed, stealth illusions, distractions and feints the draw the horde away.

Agreed, especially if you make them into a kind of escape-the-dungeon-after-disturbing-the-whatsit set piece. Another option I find that makes an undead horde more interesting: making it really disturbing by substituting specific undead for generic undead. Rather than zombies: a zombified orphanage... or senate... or the hallowed dead of the people you're trying to protect who will be real uptight about you hacking and slashing them...

[Slipperychicken]

46 zombies should be wiped in at most few rounds if the PCs have a brain between them. A level 11 cleric could just hop into the middle of the horde and use Turn Undead to wipe 90% of them with one action(-2 wis vs DC 16 destroy undead), and/or use Spirit Guardians to clear them out. A wizard could cast fireball a few times and end the horde. Even for literally unlimited zombies, there are a plethora of control spells that can keep them at bay (spike growth is fun for a chokepoint, plant growth drops them all to 5ft per round [10 if they dash], but wall of force is a bit more reliable).


Also, the necromancer would stand behind or amidst the zombies doing things that are actually threatening. Also counterspelling PCs when they try to cast big spells. If your players aren't used to counterspelling, it's a great way to get them mad.

[JoeJ]

Instead of 46, give him infinite zombies. Make it a gauntlet the PCs have to get through. No matter how many the PCs kill, more arrive every round and they never stop coming until the necromancer is defeated and his Macguffin of Zombie Summoning is destroyed. This works best if the dungeon has enough diverging passages and alternate routes to make erecting barricades impractical. The party has only a limited amount of time to get through the zombies and stop the necromancer before they're pulled down by sheer weight of numbers.

[Slipperychicken]

Instead of 46, give him infinite zombies. Make it a gauntlet the PCs have to get through. No matter how many the PCs kill, more arrive every round and they never stop coming until the necromancer is defeated and his Macguffin of Zombie Summoning is destroyed. This works best if the dungeon has enough diverging passages and alternate routes to make erecting barricades impractical. The party has only a limited amount of time to get through the zombies and stop the necromancer before they're pulled down by sheer weight of numbers.

I've played with homebrew infinite minion-spawners on a few occasions. They tend not to go very well, especially if the villain is hidden behind the minion-spawner. It's very easy for PCs to get bogged down, unable to make progress because they can't clear mooks as fast as they get spawned. And the way 5e is designed, enough mooks will kill the PCs eventually. That's not a fun game to play. If anything, blocking off the enemies is the "right" answer to infinite hordes.

There's a reason why no enemies in 5e get unlimited minion-production. At most they can use a 'summon allies' power a few times in a day.

[hymer]

I've played with homebrew infinite minion-spawners on a few occasions. They tend not to go very well, especially if the villain is hidden behind the minion-spawner. It's very easy for PCs to get bogged down, unable to make progress because they can't clear mooks as fast as they get spawned. And the way 5e is designed, enough mooks will kill the PCs eventually. That's not a fun game to play. If anything, blocking off the enemies is the "right" answer to infinite hordes.

There's a reason why no enemies in 5e get unlimited minion-production. At most they can use a 'summon allies' power a few times in a day.

A cautionary tale. There are still some handles to turn that can make it workable if one wishes, though. First, set a cap to the number of spawns able to be in existence at one time (say, 46 as mentioned). Then the spawner only spawns up to that number. If it spawns beyond that, the ones most distant at the time die off to keep the cap on. Then a fairly low spawn rate; say, two or three per round. That number may go up the fewer spawns are in existence.
Finally, give the PCs something they can do to reduce the spawn rate, at least temporarily. Buttons and levers are one option for a construct-like spawning mechanism, dealing damage to the spawner could be another. Pulling down support structures, blocking energy beams, saying prayers to a good god in front of the evil altar, etc.

[KiltieMacPipes]

Sounds like you're using the Darkhallow scene. Let's not forget that there were a lot of incorporeal undead there too thanks to Corpsetaker. What I'd do to ratchet up the excitement factor is start with waaaaay more zombies (unless they've been pimped out hard). Characters with access to level 6 spells are gonna chew through them in a matter of rounds, and your level 20 Harry is barely gonna notice that they're there, especially if Sue's there, too. All that said, nothing ramps up the tension quite like a timer. Give them 10 rounds until the ritual is complete and they have to fight a newly minted god.

[ShamasTheBard]

A homebrew line of 'summon undead' spells allowing for access to some of the ethereal creatures might also be cool.

That does sound really cool actually. Do you think I should base the CR scaling off of Conjure Fey or Conjure Celestials?

[VoxRationis]

I think if the treasure is undead, your adventure is interesting enough.

[JoeJ]

A cautionary tale. There are still some handles to turn that can make it workable if one wishes, though. First, set a cap to the number of spawns able to be in existence at one time (say, 46 as mentioned). Then the spawner only spawns up to that number. If it spawns beyond that, the ones most distant at the time die off to keep the cap on. Then a fairly low spawn rate; say, two or three per round. That number may go up the fewer spawns are in existence.
Finally, give the PCs something they can do to reduce the spawn rate, at least temporarily. Buttons and levers are one option for a construct-like spawning mechanism, dealing damage to the spawner could be another. Pulling down support structures, blocking energy beams, saying prayers to a good god in front of the evil altar, etc.

I wouldn't really have a "spawner" per se. I'm thinking more of a macguffin that raises a whole cemetery or, better yet, battlefield of the dead at a time. Most of this army would be used on the front line, but since they're spread out, the PCs can punch through at one point. Once past that, they'll still be encountering some zombies nearly every round as they make their way back to the BBEG, but as long as they keep moving, the biggest mass will be chasing them rather than standing in the way. "Infinite" zombies in this case is not literal, but from the standpoint of the PCs, the difference between infinite and thousands is pretty trivial. The number encountered each round should be highly variable because that allows for the greatest degree of DM tweaking without creating an inconsistency.

Additional time pressure can come simply from knowing that the vast majority of this army of undead isn't chasing the PCs, it's assaulting the walls of whatever town the PCs are trying to protect.

[ShamasTheBard]

Sounds like you're using the Darkhallow scene. Let's not forget that there were a lot of incorporeal undead there too thanks to Corpsetaker. What I'd do to ratchet up the excitement factor is start with waaaaay more zombies (unless they've been pimped out hard). Characters with access to level 6 spells are gonna chew through them in a matter of rounds, and your level 20 Harry is barely gonna notice that they're there, especially if Sue's there, too. All that said, nothing ramps up the tension quite like a timer. Give them 10 rounds until the ritual is complete and they have to fight a newly minted god.

You have no idea how much I'm incapable of waiting to pull out Sue.

Which page in that book is her battle scene again? None of them have read the book and I want to read it out loud to them verbatim.

[ShamasTheBard]

Also what do you guys think of this?

The most competent of the necromancers has his own A-Team of wights who've taken class levels in Bard and Eldritch Knight so I can give disadvantage on things like saving throws and do cutting words on people. Maybe a wight monk for stunning fist spam. I definitely know I wanted that combo with a Banshee involved. Cutting Words and Eldritch Strike against a Banshee Wail? See you later whoever I do that to.

[MinaBee]

Also what do you guys think of this?

The most competent of the necromancers has his own A-Team of wights who've taken class levels in Bard and Eldritch Knight so I can give disadvantage on things like saving throws and do cutting words on people. Maybe a wight monk for stunning fist spam. I definitely know I wanted that combo with a Banshee involved. Cutting Words and Eldritch Strike against a Banshee Wail? See you later whoever I do that to.

Have you read the Unearthed Arcana for mass combat (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Battlesystem.pdf) yet? I think it might be exactly what you are looking for.

Basically, the rules allow you to group identical undead minions into units that are easier to keep track of (saving you a lot of dice rolls) while the PCs, Dresden, Sue, and any powerful and/or unique baddies operate as normal.

[ShamasTheBard]

Have you read the Unearthed Arcana for mass combat (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Battlesystem.pdf) yet? I think it might be exactly what you are looking for.

Basically, the rules allow you to group identical undead minions into units that are easier to keep track of (saving you a lot of dice rolls) while the PCs, Dresden, Sue, and any powerful and/or unique baddies operate as normal.

Interesting. From what I can see though, a stand of 10 zombies still has one attack and the attack bonus and damage of a normal zombie of +3 and a d6+1? just the HP of all 10 of them? or do I just make the damage of the unit at 10d6+10?

[Anderlith]

Make them skeletons & give them shadowmonk levels. Teleporting undead swarms will really mess with the party & it gives off the feel of ghostliness while not making them harder to hit. Hand wave wisdom requirements. Write it off as the necro wshing for it.

That being said Book 7 was way less about the hoard, Sue was basically the balance to that. Harry was struggling with the timer & a being more powerful than himself, keeping him preoccupied. He won with a trick, he didn't fight the BBEG so keep in mind the flavor of that scene.

[JoeJ]

Make them skeletons & give them shadowmonk levels. Teleporting undead swarms will really mess with the party & it gives off the feel of ghostliness while not making them harder to hit. Hand wave wisdom requirements. Write it off as the necro wshing for it.

What wisdom requirement? They just have to be 6th level in the class. (Or, since they're not PCs, have the ability without the rest of the class.)

[Bubzors]

Making this more interesting first comes down to whether you're insisting on the BBEG using exclusively PC-accessible mechanics.

I agree with this sentiment, why are you insisting using PC mechanics for the BBEG? Just design appropriate difficulty encounter for your pcs based on the provided encounter tables. Throw in there the more pumped up versions of undead, and maybe some homebrewed undead. I like your idea of stunning fist or eldritch knight undead, but no need to fully stat them out using PC rules. Just design them as monsters and give them a recharge stun or X per day spells to use.

If anyone questions it say he is a master necromancer who has perfected practices unknown to others. Or has an artifact helping him or anything actually. It's your job to give them an interesting and challenging encounter. No need to constrict yourself to PC options when the DMG gives alright guidelines for designing homebrew monsters.

This makes balancing easier, gives you greater control and the feel you want. In this edition the bad guys don't have to be built using PC rules, and I think it's better for it.

[ShamasTheBard]

I agree with this sentiment, why are you insisting using PC mechanics for the BBEG? Just design appropriate difficulty encounter for your pcs based on the provided encounter tables. Throw in there the more pumped up versions of undead, and maybe some homebrewed undead. I like your idea of stunning fist or eldritch knight undead, but no need to fully stat them out using PC rules. Just design them as monsters and give them a recharge stun or X per day spells to use.

If anyone questions it say he is a master necromancer who has perfected practices unknown to others. Or has an artifact helping him or anything actually. It's your job to give them an interesting and challenging encounter. No need to constrict yourself to PC options when the DMG gives alright guidelines for designing homebrew monsters.

This makes balancing easier, gives you greater control and the feel you want. In this edition the bad guys don't have to be built using PC rules, and I think it's better for it.

Yeah I admit that I'm still used to 3.5e with a lot of stuff, but I just like the feel of continuity when an enemy that's a human can explain the things they do with PC rules. Although just making **** up and making it CR appropriate helps a lot with the feel of an otherworldly magic.

[Sception]

That does sound really cool actually. Do you think I should base the CR scaling off of Conjure Fey or Conjure Celestials?

It's where I would start, yes.

Unless by this you're asking specifically which of the two to start with between Fey or Celestials, and in that case I'd start with celestials as your baseline, since it's in the same class/classes you're most likely adding the 'summon undead' spell to.

[Temperjoke]

Had a pair of thoughts:

One room has a group of 8 weak skeletons, mix of armor and weapons, that is magically sealed when they enter. When the skeletons are defeated, a gem or some object glows and rebuilds them, into 4 stronger skeletons. When those go down, it happens again, re-building them into 2 stronger skeletons. Then again. And then the last skeleton keeps getting rebuilt stronger and stronger, until they're dead or stop the thing that's rebuilding them. But there's a catch, if they stop the rebuilding item by destroying it, then they have to figure out another way out of the sealed room, because the intact item was the "key" for opening the seal.

The other idea was for a videogame standard giant skeleton, where you can target the individual parts like individual enemies. The trick to it can be that the rib-cage can be an actual cage, either to capture enemies, or possibly to house the BBEG of the dungeon. Either way, the core of the idea is: giant skeleton with separate parts that has large, empty cavities to house stuff in it.

[Sception]

I like the giant skeleton with multiple targetable parts. Maybe legs that, when knocked out, bring the giant skeleton crashing to it's knees, bringing the head/rib cage into reach of melee party members until the necromancer inside is able to restore the broken parts? Could be a cool gimmick.

The constant rebuilding thing sounds more frustrating than fun - it can work, but maybe have the thing finish out after the 'one strong monster' version, with disabling the key as an out the party can use earlier if they're clever and catch it. Fights that are endless unless the party guesses the one thing the DM wanted them to do to stop it are generally not the best encounter design.

[Greased Up Fox]

One thing that's often overlooked in how to make an encounter fun is the terrain. Cover, raised areas, etc can add a bunch.

[Temperjoke]

The constant rebuilding thing sounds more frustrating than fun - it can work, but maybe have the thing finish out after the 'one strong monster' version, with disabling the key as an out the party can use earlier if they're clever and catch it. Fights that are endless unless the party guesses the one thing the DM wanted them to do to stop it are generally not the best encounter design.

Well, the idea is that it's grinding. The villain wants to burn through the party's resources. Ideally, after the first rebuilding, the party should be able to realize that they need to switch targets and neutralize the thing causing the rebuilding. The magical seal part is to encourage creativity instead of just smashing it, or to help the DM provide a little direction to the party, if need be.